Cure V

[CapriciousOne]

While I support you in theory, one of the previous posters has already demonstrated that a RDM with Cure V wouldn't be very far behind WHM in cure power. Blame it on SE's rotten scaling of Healing Magic Skill as it effects Cures. In real use people would just see "Cure V" and immediately throw the RDM into a main healing spot. They've been doing that since 2004, it's not gonna change all of a sudden. Doing this would immediately end any and all enhancements SE would do to RDM. Cause no matter what, for all eternity people would just see RDM has a healer -1. Not the best but "good enough", and that's all people care about. Heck I've seen many alliances try to main heal with RDM's right now, doesn't work very well, and you get one tired RDM, but they thing Cure = main healer.

I don't mind supporting a WHM and taking on part of the healing load, and Cure V would make that tons easier. But I would get to "support" for about two weeks until people noticed that you can just do WHM + RDM/WHM x 2 in an 18 main alliance instead of WHM x 3. Of course the WHM would take care of the two tanks, but the RDM's would be forced to babysit the melee's or if he's lucky the BLMs.

I also forgot to say a while ago that I still think whm is better healer despite what anybody says. The fact that WHM can heal the entire party alone with Curaga lines of spells and hit everybody with a cure for nearly the same mp it would cost a RDM to single target cure everybody. Sure I know people worry about hate and what not but curing 6ppl using Curaga IV for 260 mp is far cheaper than a rdm curing using cure iv at 88mp x5 ppl for 440mp not counting the recast timers and waiting for refresh ii to make up for the 180mp difference and that is not even counting the rdm healing themselves which the whm would be covered in that 260 mp for curaga iv. Just numbers wise it doesnt make any sense to me especially when most of the Cure potency gear is made for whm I dont see how they can take that to say rdm is anywhere near as proficient at healing as WHM. Simply put WHM is just scared of getting hit is what it sound like to me but isnt there some job ability that turns that damage into mp or hp or something?

In any case I myself prefer the best when it comes to healing. Hell even with sub jobs i prefer something that can heal over just adding more damage. In my eyes if you cant heal u cant survive for very long if at all. In an ideal world everybody would be /dnc, /whm, /rdm and use tier 3 cure/curagas at the max and ONLY the WHM could use anything higher if needed like after an AoE TP move or something but we dont live in that ideal world.

In any case in my opinion the whm shouldn't be single targe healing anybody PERIOD. RDM could step in to single target the paladin where additional cures may be needed as well as tend to keeping the whm on it feet and refreshed. If things worked like that I could deal with healing no problem and still melee a bit. It is also why i RDM/DNC so that i can cycle between cure 3 and 4 as well as curing walts 2 and 3 to eliminate as much downtime from recasts of cures with waltzes that dont get interrupted but to work in a party i must melee to gain some tp. When u add up all 4 of those rdm can heal for 650hp or so in one attack round with C4 + CW3 or over 1000 in 2 attack rounds if u follow up with C3 + CW2. Even with that it still doesn't compare to a WHM being able to cure like almost 2000hp with curaga iv for 260 mp or almost 3000hp in one shot with curaga v for only 380 mp.

I understand what you saying though there is not changing the minds of these stubborn but looking at those numbers I say they are crazy.

[saevel]

I also forgot to say a while ago that I still think whm is better healer despite what anybody says. The fact that WHM can heal the entire party alone with Curaga lines of spells and hit everybody with a cure for nearly the same mp it would cost a RDM to single target cure everybody. Sure I know people worry about hate and what not but curing 6ppl using Curaga IV for 260 mp is far cheaper than a rdm curing using cure iv at 88mp x5 ppl for 440mp not counting the recast timers and waiting for refresh ii to make up for the 180mp difference and that is not even counting the rdm healing themselves which the whm would be covered in that 260 mp for curaga iv. Just numbers wise it doesnt make any sense to me especially when most of the Cure potency gear is made for whm I dont see how they can take that to say rdm is anywhere near as proficient at healing as WHM. Simply put WHM is just scared of getting hit is what it sound like to me but isnt there some job ability that turns that damage into mp or hp or something?

In any case I myself prefer the best when it comes to healing. Hell even with sub jobs i prefer something that can heal over just adding more damage. In my eyes if you cant heal u cant survive for very long if at all. In an ideal world everybody would be /dnc, /whm, /rdm and use tier 3 cure/curagas at the max and ONLY the WHM could use anything higher if needed like after an AoE TP move or something but we dont live in that ideal world.

In any case in my opinion the whm shouldn't be single targe healing anybody PERIOD. RDM could step in to single target the paladin where additional cures may be needed as well as tend to keeping the whm on it feet and refreshed. If things worked like that I could deal with healing no problem and still melee a bit. It is also why i RDM/DNC so that i can cycle between cure 3 and 4 as well as curing walts 2 and 3 to eliminate as much downtime from recasts of cures with waltzes that dont get interrupted but to work in a party i must melee to gain some tp. When u add up all 4 of those rdm can heal for 650hp or so in one attack round with C4 + CW3 or over 1000 in 2 attack rounds if u follow up with C3 + CW2. Even with that it still doesn't compare to a WHM being able to cure like almost 2000hp with curaga iv for 260 mp or almost 3000hp in one shot with curaga v for only 380 mp.

I understand what you saying though there is not changing the minds of these stubborn but looking at those numbers I say they are crazy.

Few pages ago the numbers were run, WHM Cure V is something like 30~40 HP more them a RDM.

Also it's never been about being "the best" as a support. Group leaders will always seek to get a win while using the absolute minimum support possible combined with the maximum amount of firepower possible. It's been this way ever since people figured out you could TP burn just about anything in the game. So a RDM doesn't need to be better then a WHM at healing, it doesn't even need to be in the same league, it only needs to be good enough to get a "win". We all know this, people like to masquerade behind various excuse's and obfuscations, but in all reality they want to be able to either A) use a RDM to main heal their events or B) use RDM as an "in" to get gear for their other jobs. They want to do this by main healing groups, currently not really possible with just Cure IV. It has absolutely nothing to do with giving the job a unique role or making the job "useful" or whatever other excuse for "main healer" you want toss in. It's about getting a guaranteed spot in a group to get gear rather then having to fight it out with other jobs.

[saevel]

@Motenten

I apologize if my tone was off, I've been dealing this these people for too long I think.

I was bringing up those points to illustrate that even at its best, WHM is barely ahead of RDM for longevity, otherwise known as brute cure power. Giving RDM Cure V would put it close enough to WHM that it would be determined "good enough" for main healing duties. What many of the pro camp here doesn't realize, or they do and are being dishonest, is that giving RDM Cure V would put it back into the exact same position as it was in 2005/2006. Forever locked into three spells (Haste Cure Refresh). That is a very very bad thing. RDM's don't want to be stuck main healing four to five melee's, its stressful and ultimately its a suck position to be forced into. Of course you have many people coming in that have absolutely zero intentions of playing the job and instead want to use other RDM's to heal them rather then having to find a WHM. Or worse, they play RDM but only as a method to acquire gear for their PUP, BST, DRG, SMN, COR or what have you. They don't care about the job nor actually enjoying the job, but just it's viability / desirability as a loot whore.

[cidbahamut]

I was bringing up those points to illustrate that even at its best, WHM is barely ahead of RDM for longevity, otherwise known as brute cure power.

If you mean MP endurance then say MP endurance because it's a completely different kettle of fish than Curing.

Giving RDM Cure V would put it close enough to WHM that it would be determined "good enough" for main healing duties.

Oh noes, a Red Mage being able to fill multiple roles? We can't have this Jack-of-All-Trades nonsense unless it relates to swinging a sword, amirite?

What many of the pro camp here doesn't realize, or they do and are being dishonest, is that giving RDM Cure V would put it back into the exact same position as it was in 2005/2006.

Because nothing in this game has changed in the last six years, right?

Forever locked into three spells (Haste Cure Refresh). That is a very very bad thing. RDM's don't want to be stuck main healing four to five melee's, its stressful and ultimately its a suck position to be forced into.

Getting stuck with it? No.
Having the versatility to cover that function when the White Mage bites the dust so we don't wipe while they're reraising/recovering from weakness? Absolutely.

[Doombringer]

Oh noes, a Red Mage being able to fill multiple roles? We can't have this Jack-of-All-Trades nonsense unless it relates to swinging a sword, amirite?

i've been trying to stay out of this one, since.. i'm not actually even against cureV.. but comon cid.. this implies we in the melee camp have gotten everything we asked for and you supported us in that endeavor. when in fact you fought us tooth and nail and a lot of your side has been implying we're retarded for even wanting the things we want.

i'm not arguing against cure5 here, i'm just saying i never saw you arguing for vorpal blade, or whatever else.. so don't act like he's somehow not keeping up his end of the bargain. you're playing the same card at your same convenience.


honestly i'd like to have cure5... i've always said i never wanted to JUST melee on rdm, so i'm happy to cure someone up before they bleed out. and i'd like them to feel it when i do.. but i'm still not gonna agree to main heal anybodys alliance either, so it's not gonna hurt me personally.

[CapriciousOne]

@Motenten

I apologize if my tone was off, I've been dealing this these people for too long I think.

I was bringing up those points to illustrate that even at its best, WHM is barely ahead of RDM for longevity, otherwise known as brute cure power. Giving RDM Cure V would put it close enough to WHM that it would be determined "good enough" for main healing duties. What many of the pro camp here doesn't realize, or they do and are being dishonest, is that giving RDM Cure V would put it back into the exact same position as it was in 2005/2006. Forever locked into three spells (Haste Cure Refresh). That is a very very bad thing. RDM's don't want to be stuck main healing four to five melee's, its stressful and ultimately its a suck position to be forced into. Of course you have many people coming in that have absolutely zero intentions of playing the job and instead want to use other RDM's to heal them rather then having to find a WHM. Or worse, they play RDM but only as a method to acquire gear for their PUP, BST, DRG, SMN, COR or what have you. They don't care about the job nor actually enjoying the job, but just it's viability / desirability as a loot whore.

I have to admit I do totally forget about this fact despite i wasnt really around in 2005/2006 but have had the unfortunate displease of being put in that role none the less. I hate it just as much and pretty much wont party as rdm at all less it with a buddy or two. Guess I never really thought about those that feel the same way. I also agree that it is completely possible that people asking for this may not even be playing the job and only asking for it for the reason you listed earlier. I mainly solo any jobs I use and if needed use my fellow and just thought it would be nice to be able to better heal us both. I never really considered those that do party as rdm and are forced to nurse stupid damage dealers that dont use /whm or /dnc. If that is what the end result would be than i guess I would rather cure iv be improved, cap removed, or more of the skill and mnd being used in calculations instead of giving Cure V. The last thing I want to do is continue to pigeon hole my own RDM brethren to help whiny DD. Another alternative would be to maker certain spells stack like regen/refresh/protect/shell/phalanx and other spells on other jobs of course where there are higher tiers of spells that function the same way but I know that will never happen with SE bs logic.

[cidbahamut]

Of course you have many people coming in that have absolutely zero intentions of playing the job and instead want to use other RDM's to heal them rather then having to find a WHM. Or worse, they play RDM but only as a method to acquire gear for their PUP, BST, DRG, SMN, COR or what have you. They don't care about the job nor actually enjoying the job, but just it's viability / desirability as a loot whore.

Yes, because the opinions of Red Mages don't count unless they adhere to your specific vision of the job. Because no one who disagrees with you could possibly consider Red Mage their main job. Because no one with a differing opinion could be anything other than a dirty filthy DD who leveled RDM to get more DD shinies. Because no one who takes the time to argue at length about a job could possibly actually care about the job.

You're full of it saevel.

[cidbahamut]

You're not making much sense Doom, and I think you're misreading what I intend by my statement.

There are many people who make the argument for melee updates based on the outdated concept blurb of "Jack-of-all-Trades". Now I see these same people kicking and screaming about how we can't have Cure V because it means we'll be able to fill another role, something one would think would appeal given the Jack-of-all-Trades line or reasoning they cling to. But no, they don't see it like that. Why? Because they're holding a double-standard. Jack-of-all-Trades is a reason to get things, but only if it's the things they want(read: melee), but not if it's something that would benefit the job that they don't care for(read: healing).

[Doombringer]

yah, i get that. but my point was... aren't you kinda doing the same thing? just in the opposite order?

or now i guess you're just throwing out the jack-of-all-trades card to make a point, and don't actually subscribe to the idea.

[cidbahamut]

yah, i get that. but my point was... aren't you kinda doing the same thing? just in the opposite order?

or now i guess you're just throwing out the jack-of-all-trades card to make a point, and don't actually subscribe to the idea.

That second one there.