Job Adjustments manifesto Discussion

[Korpg]

Plus, there are no jobs that deal out AoE Light-based sleep....oh wai...

[Raksha]

Plus, there are no jobs that deal out AoE Light-based sleep....oh wai...

Perhaps you have a short memory, but the claim being made is that BLM/SCH is the second best crowd controller in dynamis (or even the entire game). Are you saying that BRD or BLU are the second best crowd controller in the game?

BLM/SCH would not have access to gravity.

Doh! Yeah I missed that one.

[Kagato]

[SIZE="5"]Dear Dev Room:[/SIZE]

Hello. This is Kagato again. Thought I would share my opinions about the Dark Knight Manifesto.

Ok. DRK is supposed to sacrifice something in order to gain something. Alright. I'll bite.

Sacrificing TP to deal greater damage isn't a very good idea unless the damage boost is high enough to make us not want to bother with Weapon Skills. Otherwise, every DRK in the game is going to ignore this ability. The way we Dark Knights play this game is to get TP as quickly as possible in order to use Guillotine (scythe) or Torcleaver (Great Sword) as often as we can for the highest possible damage per second. The amount of damage we get from this ability needs to compensate for the TP loss. If we ultimately do less damage or an equal amount of damage that we normally would do without this new ability, then there is absolutely no reason to use it. In order for us Dark Knights to want to use this ability, we need to do more damage overall than we used to.

The way we gear ourselves is to pack on the Haste gear and then get as much Store TP as we can to reach 100% TP in the fewest amount of swings, so this includes Store TP gear and having a Samurai Subjob. I don't know how aware the developers are to us playing this way, but it's how we do things in order to keep up with other jobs. With Scythes, the ultimate goal is to get enough TP to use a weaponskill in a minimum of 5 attacks. With Greatswords, it's 6. By lowering or removing TP gain, that strategy goes away. Therefore, we Dark Knights need a reason to want to use an ability that lowers TP gain.


Now then, on to magic.

An ability that increases magic damage and magic weaponskill damage by increasing overall damage taken is only half as good as it sounds. Dark Knights have little need to want to be close to an enemy with terrible defenses in order to use an Elemental Weaponskill (which, by the way, DRKs pretty much never, ever use). That leaves us with increased elemental magic power. Ok, I can see how that could be useful for when melee isn't a good idea. I have been in a few fights where all I could do to help is sit back and cast dark magic...

Wait. Dark magic....

Yeah about that... Dark Knights don't really find any usefulness out of elemental magic spells since we do very little damage with them. So here is my proposal. if you want to give us an ability that increases out elemental magical damage, then that ability needs to make our elemental magic do damage equal to any of the "IV" spells since all we have is "III" spells. If that can be done, then I'm ok with it. If not, then elemental magic is going to continue collecting dust in my magic list.

******************

We try not to think of short-term benefits. We look at long term. We want to have abilities that sacrifices something to gain something else the right way.

Therefore, this is my suggestion:

If I remember correctly, there is an ability in Final Fantasy IX that allows a character to sacrifice MP in order to deal higher melee damage. Perhaps that can be used instead of TP, like a souleater for MP called "Mindeater" or something. Or, sacrificing overall magical ability in order to increase overall physical damage output might be a good idea too.

Vice Versa can be said for Magic. If you still like the idea of TP loss = gain in something, then why not sacrifice melee power for magic power? TP is part of melee, so if you want us to sacrifice TP, have us do so to increase MAGICAL damage. This would give Occult Acumen more use as well since casting magic feeds us a little TP at a time, extending the use of this ability. Perhaps something that increases weapon delay and decreases defense (like in the manifesto) that increases all magic output rather than just elemental. Dark Magic becomes stronger and more potent while elemental magic becomes strong enough to be more viable against monsters of our own level.

With this idea in mind, Dark Knights can continue to sacrifice something in order to gain power elsewhere while also allowing us Dark Knights more versatility in combat since we can pretty much activate "melee mode" or "magic mode." And of course, not using anything makes us well-rounded but not better in either aspect.

*******

So, very long story short, Dark Knights want abilities that are useful overall in the long run. In order to keep Dark Knights happy while still using their "sacrifice something in order to gain something else," the most logical stance is to sacrifice magical ability to increase melee ability and melee ability sacrificed for magical ability.

The current manifesto basically says that we sacrifice melee for melee and defense for magic. It just doesn't seem really logical.

Also, one more thing. It would be nice to give us new Dark Magic spells exclusive to us. Be they new absorb spells or Dark Magic based enfeebles, like Curse or Plague.

Dark Knights want to be versatile in every situation. Maybe not in the same vain as Warriors being able to use any melee weapon they wish and to change between being a tank or a damage dealer with all of their options, but in a way where Dark Knights can aid a battle through melee or magical means.

Having the ability to choose which "battle stance" we want, melee or magic, would give us such versatility.

[Dart]

couldn't have wrote it better myself (well I could have! but i'm being polite!) mwah ha ha ha ha ha


also dear se,

plz gawd fix our weaponskill damage numbers.

They're pitiful.

[Kagato]

Actually, if you write your own "version" than they might be more inclined to listen since it's not just one crazy DRK throwing his own logic around.

It'll be two. :3

[Urteil]

Actually, if you write your own "version" than they might be more inclined to listen since it's not just one crazy DRK throwing his own logic around.

It'll be two. :3

Actually its three, and I'd be #1.

Hello #2 and #3, nice to meet you.

couldn't have wrote it better myself (well I could have! but i'm being polite!) mwah ha ha ha ha ha


also dear se,

plz gawd fix our weaponskill damage numbers.

They're pitiful.

Post it too, god knows I have. Here go look and talk about it there too.


http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...-via-Manifesto

Make a new thread even, then they'll realize that three of us are not crazy, and to stop throwing this sillyness around.

[Urteil]

[SIZE="5"]Dear Dev Room:[/SIZE]

Hello. This is Kagato again. Thought I would share my opinions about the Dark Knight Manifesto.

Ok. DRK is supposed to sacrifice something in order to gain something. Alright. I'll bite.

Sacrificing TP to deal greater damage isn't a very good idea unless the damage boost is high enough to make us not want to bother with Weapon Skills. Otherwise, every DRK in the game is going to ignore this ability. The way we Dark Knights play this game is to get TP as quickly as possible in order to use Guillotine (scythe) or Torcleaver (Great Sword) as often as we can for the highest possible damage per second. The amount of damage we get from this ability needs to compensate for the TP loss. If we ultimately do less damage or an equal amount of damage that we normally would do without this new ability, then there is absolutely no reason to use it. In order for us Dark Knights to want to use this ability, we need to do more damage overall than we used to.

The way we gear ourselves is to pack on the Haste gear and then get as much Store TP as we can to reach 100% TP in the fewest amount of swings, so this includes Store TP gear and having a Samurai Subjob. I don't know how aware the developers are to us playing this way, but it's how we do things in order to keep up with other jobs. With Scythes, the ultimate goal is to get enough TP to use a weaponskill in a minimum of 5 attacks. With Greatswords, it's 6. By lowering or removing TP gain, that strategy goes away. Therefore, we Dark Knights need a reason to want to use an ability that lowers TP gain.


Now then, on to magic.

An ability that increases magic damage and magic weaponskill damage by increasing overall damage taken is only half as good as it sounds. Dark Knights have little need to want to be close to an enemy with terrible defenses in order to use an Elemental Weaponskill (which, by the way, DRKs pretty much never, ever use). That leaves us with increased elemental magic power. Ok, I can see how that could be useful for when melee isn't a good idea. I have been in a few fights where all I could do to help is sit back and cast dark magic...

Wait. Dark magic....

Yeah about that... Dark Knights don't really find any usefulness out of elemental magic spells since we do very little damage with them. So here is my proposal. if you want to give us an ability that increases out elemental magical damage, then that ability needs to make our elemental magic do damage equal to any of the "IV" spells since all we have is "III" spells. If that can be done, then I'm ok with it. If not, then elemental magic is going to continue collecting dust in my magic list.

******************

We try not to think of short-term benefits. We look at long term. We want to have abilities that sacrifices something to gain something else the right way.

Therefore, this is my suggestion:

If I remember correctly, there is an ability in Final Fantasy IX that allows a character to sacrifice MP in order to deal higher melee damage. Perhaps that can be used instead of TP, like a souleater for MP called "Mindeater" or something. Or, sacrificing overall magical ability in order to increase overall physical damage output might be a good idea too.

Vice Versa can be said for Magic. If you still like the idea of TP loss = gain in something, then why not sacrifice melee power for magic power? TP is part of melee, so if you want us to sacrifice TP, have us do so to increase MAGICAL damage. This would give Occult Acumen more use as well since casting magic feeds us a little TP at a time, extending the use of this ability. Perhaps something that increases weapon delay and decreases defense (like in the manifesto) that increases all magic output rather than just elemental. Dark Magic becomes stronger and more potent while elemental magic becomes strong enough to be more viable against monsters of our own level.

With this idea in mind, Dark Knights can continue to sacrifice something in order to gain power elsewhere while also allowing us Dark Knights more versatility in combat since we can pretty much activate "melee mode" or "magic mode." And of course, not using anything makes us well-rounded but not better in either aspect.

*******

So, very long story short, Dark Knights want abilities that are useful overall in the long run. In order to keep Dark Knights happy while still using their "sacrifice something in order to gain something else," the most logical stance is to sacrifice magical ability to increase melee ability and melee ability sacrificed for magical ability.

The current manifesto basically says that we sacrifice melee for melee and defense for magic. It just doesn't seem really logical.

Also, one more thing. It would be nice to give us new Dark Magic spells exclusive to us. Be they new absorb spells or Dark Magic based enfeebles, like Curse or Plague.

Dark Knights want to be versatile in every situation. Maybe not in the same vain as Warriors being able to use any melee weapon they wish and to change between being a tank or a damage dealer with all of their options, but in a way where Dark Knights can aid a battle through melee or magical means.

Having the ability to choose which "battle stance" we want, melee or magic, would give us such versatility.

Dark Knight having a stance that increases defense and reduces damage taken, while increasing magical damage output, casting speed, and having negatives on melee like increased delay is alright.

On the flipside us having a stance that increases physical damage output while furthering to sacrifice defense would make sense.


But sacrificing defense and taking more damage to deal more TERRIBLE, INEFFICIENT, PANTS-ON-HEAD-RETARDED magical damage? (MOAR DEEPS WITH THEM TIER 3'S YO).




Uh, what?

Come on SE.

[Urteil]

I wonder if they think that Dark Knights go around spamming herculean slash, tier III's, and rock sets of full parrying gear, or sub scholar for any team-play abyssea/voidwatch/anythingthatreallymatters, event.




Only in PvP or dicking around in campaign or standing in town, do I sub scholar, and even then the first three items in that list of nonsense never happen.

[Frost]

No offense intended, but you're getting a little overbearing with the whole Drk thing. We get it, you think the job sucks and you want it to be War.

Can we move on?
You've said your piece, they've told you the direction they wish to take the job.

Do you send letters to George Lucas telling him how you think his movies should be? Do you go on forums saying how much their next movie sucks when it hasn't even been released yet?

While your passion for the job can be applauded, it's bordering on insanity. Dark Knight isn't as bad as you think it is. You should know this since you love it to the point of being fanatical. You've done all you can, just relax and hope for the best, while being open-minded to new ideas.

Or.. Play war, since the majority of the "fixes" presented by Drks amount to a relabeled Aggressor, Berserk, Blood Rage, War Cry, etc etc etc...

Or... At the very least, play some of the other content in the game and realize Dark Knight is STILL a powerhouse outside of Abyssea... (Abyssea isn't going to be the last and only content in the game. It's already getting dated with people maxing out on exp/merits/gear/weapons...)

[Siiri]

No offense intended, but you're getting a little overbearing with the whole Drk thing. We get it, you think the job sucks and you want it to be War.

Can we move on?
You've said your piece, they've told you the direction they wish to take the job.

Do you send letters to George Lucas telling him how you think his movies should be? Do you go on forums saying how much their next movie sucks when it hasn't even been released yet?

While your passion for the job can be applauded, it's bordering on insanity. Dark Knight isn't as bad as you think it is. You should know this since you love it to the point of being fanatical. You've done all you can, just relax and hope for the best, while being open-minded to new ideas.

Or.. Play war, since the majority of your "fixes" amount to a relabeled Aggressor, Berserk, Blood Rage, War Cry, etc etc etc...

Or... At the very least, play some of the other content in the game and realize Dark Knight is STILL a powerhouse outside of Abyssea... (Abyssea isn't going to be the last and only content in the game. It's already getting dated with people maxing out on exp/merits/gear/weapons...)

I checked your profile and of course you play SAM and WAR, SE"s 2 favorite DD classes. As for DRK, they have the highest base weapons and the greatest attack, at one point they were supposed to challenge SAM and WAR, but SE fell in love with these magical updates. And fyi, DRK already has their own versions of berserk, aggressor via last resort and diabolic eye. The magic side of DRK has been done to death with the last few updates, they need some straight out crit bonuses and crit weapon skills. No one cares about herculean slash/infernal scythe, unless they buff them to do 3k damage or whatever war's with full perle do on raging rush.