[dev1017] PLD proposed adjustments

[Greatguardian]

NO. I think White Magic nukes suck because they do crap damage for the mp used. It has nothing to do with a Black Mage. If i tried to kill something with my white magic nukes I would be out of MP before the monster was under 75% health. That is why they suck...it has nothing to do with the black mage, or any other mage for that matter.

They suck because they are not effective. Period.

Now I understand you hate paladins and think they are usless. We have established this. I've pointed out why you are wrong, and that's all I can do.

So how exactly are you judging what can be considered effective and what can't? What is it that White Mage is unable to kill via nukes? How long is too long? How little damage per MP point is too little? White Mage can definitely nuke things to death if they want.

You are drawing completely arbitrary lines and then stepping over as many of them as you want.

Is Banish III super awesome because it can do 500 damage? If no one else could do 500 damage in one hit, damn straight that would be awesome. WHM would be the single best nuker around. If Black mage was doing 400 damage per Blizzard V, then White Mage would be flipping amazing.

Is Vorpal Blade a really cool guy who doesn't afraid of anything because it can average 2k-2.5k in Abyssea? Considering a damn good DD at 75 was lucking to average that high in an ideal environment, sure it may look that way. But is it actually any good? Absolutely not. Vorpal Blade is utter crap. Why? Because it's normal for any good DD to be averaging 4k-5k in Abyssea, and the gap widens tremendously in the real DD's favor outside.

Things are good because of how much they do relative to something else. Is 100 damage/minute good? Is 1,000? Is 10,000? 100,000? How the hell would you know? Oh, that's right, because you can see how much other jobs can do and compare them.

[Dale]

So how exactly are you judging what can be considered effective and what can't? What is it that White Mage is unable to kill via nukes? How long is too long? How little damage per MP point is too little? White Mage can definitely nuke things to death if they want.

.

I've already explained this to you a million times, but I guess I will once again.

If it gets the job done then it's effective.

I can't kill crap with my white mage nukes cause they suck. They would run me out of mp long before the monster was even hardly scratched.

The black magic nukes however (yes, even the tier 4 ones) do quite well and make things go dead.

It's a simple concept and I don't know why you are having such a hard time understanding it. If it works it's good. If it doens't, then it sucks.

[Secure]

I think one of the biggest problems with the argument here is that Dale is consistently focusing on whether something is "effective". While others might be looking to argue that something is more or less "efficient".

Effective - producing a decided, decisive, or desired effect <an effective policy>

Now if we're talking about whether or not a job has the capability to produce the desired results, well now we're going to have to look at what the desired result actually is. For some people it's simply to win and in this case any kind of damage output or whatever will work including tactics like DOT kiting. Hence any job can be considered effective. For others the objective of winning is essentially guaranteed as most content is mind numbingly easy so the only real issue is speeding things up to make farming more "efficient".

Efficient - productive of desired effects; especially : productive without waste <an efficient worker>

This is where the real contention should lie. If you go back and compare a Red Mage to a Black Mage when it comes to damage output of spells vs. MP cost. Well, Black Mage is going to win, not only do they have superior increases to overall damage through equipment they also have a more potent MAB job trait (2 more levels of it in fact). We can spin this for any DD as well. While a PLD may in fact be able to deal damage and "effectively" kill and/or tank whatever prey it attacks, a stronger DD (say MNK, WAR, etc.) will undoubtedly be able to do it faster due to increased TP phase dmg/ws dmg/native traits/JAs.

Can a PLD deal damage? Yes
Can a PLD deal more damage and faster than other DD jobs? Most likely not.
Can a RDM nuke? Yes
Can a RDM do more dmg and kill faster than a BLM would? Definitely not.

In summation, PLD + WHM duo can effectively kill off an NM. MNK + WHM duo can kill that NM more efficiently by using the same resources and getting the job done considerably quicker.

P.S. An easier comparison for spell efficiency - Red Mage does 800 dmg Blizzard IV, Black Mage casts the same spell for 1500 dmg. Assuming no conserve MP procs obviously the BLM is more "efficient" because he is using the same MP/spell and doing considerably more DMG. It would take the blm 20 casts to kill a monster with 30k HP and 37.5 casts for a RDM to kill that same monster assuming the same damage occurred on every cast. (Variances in dmg should not change this much unless these spells are resisted heavily and often)