[dev1017] PLD proposed adjustments

[Dale]

Huh? My MNK needs a WHM for support my friend's NIN/WAR needs the same WHM for support. Guess what my PLD needs a WHM for support. How is that "more support" for the DDs?

.

Oh God, you are one of those people who like to split up quotes, i should have known ; ;

I'll just answer you one at a time.

It depends on the situation. Lot of times a paladin won't even need a healer at all, as he can handle the healing himself, and i've yet to ever encounter a fight where I need a white mage, as my own heals combined with the lesser heals of say a red mage or even a dragoon are usually enough to keep me up. That's what i mean by they require less support, as a paladin brings healing to the table and other more offensive tanks do not.

You are just wrong that a paladin needs a white mage with him where ever he goes to surivive. They don't. Hell...i've seen dark knights tank without a white mage. If you need a white mage to support you against everything you fight then there is an issue there that has nothing to do with the paladin job.

[Dale]

If the RDM didn't offer Dia 2/3 for DEF Down, Slow II, Paralyze II, Addle, Help with Hastes, Refresh 2, a more effective stun due to faster recast then I'd agree RDM would be broken.

You are sidestepping your original point, which was you stating the paladin sucks at something just because another job can do it better. Even if Red Mage didn't have enfeebles, their nukes would still not suck. They are effective, rather a black mage can do it better or not - and that was my point.

[Zagen]

Oh God, you are one of those people who like to split up quotes, i should have known ; ;

I'll just answer you one at a time.

It depends on the situation. Lot of times a paladin won't even need a healer at all, as he can handle the healing himself, and i've yet to ever encounter a fight where I need a white mage, as my own heals combined with the lesser heals of say a red mage or even a dragoon are usually enough to keep me up. That's what i mean by they require less support, as a paladin brings healing to the table and other more offensive tanks do not.

You are just wrong that a paladin needs a white mage with him where ever he goes to surivive. They don't. Hell...i've seen dark knights tank without a white mage. If you need a white mage to support you against everything you fight then there is an issue there that has nothing to do with the paladin job.

I dunno point out a situation besides exploiting Ochain's block rate that a DD couldn't do what a PLD does without a healer.

You are sidestepping your original point, which was you stating the paladin sucks at something just because another job can do it better. Even if Red Mage didn't have enfeebles, their nukes would still not suck. They are effective, rather a black mage can do it better or not - and that was my point.

Why would you go with a job that can cast Blizzard IV when there is one that can cast Blizzard V and has better nuking gear available? I wouldn't. If I need enfeebles I go RDM, If I need nukes I go BLM its just that simple.

[Dale]

I dunno point out a situation besides exploiting Ochain's block rate that a DD couldn't do what a PLD does without a healer..

You would have to be more specific if you want me to give you specifics. When you say "DD" that means what exactly? What job combo? That could mean a lot of things...

I'll say this though:
The only way I can see the more offensive tanks compare to a paladin in this regard would be for them to sub dancer. However, doing this forces them to use their TP for cures intead of weapon skills, which is going to significantly reduce their offensive capablity. So it's basically a wash.

[Dale]

Why would you go with a job that can cast Blizzard IV when there is one that can cast Blizzard V and has better nuking gear available? I wouldn't. If I need enfeebles I go RDM, If I need nukes I go BLM its just that simple.

Bleh, as a Red Mage i can tell you I enjoy my nukes far more than my enfeebles, so naturally I disagree with your logic. Enfeebling is good on Rdm, but certainly doens't make or break the job - and to me in no way overshadows our other talents just because another job happens to have a higher tier on something. If all Red Mage had was his enfeebles, the job would seriously suck, and that's the glaring flaw in your obsessed with the best logic.

But in any case, we are getting off topic. The point was Red Mage nukes do not suck just because a Black Mage's nukes are better. That was the point. And it was a correct point.

[Greatguardian]

But in any case, we are getting off topic. The point was Red Mage nukes do not suck just because a Black Mage's nukes are better. That was the point. And it was a correct point.

noit'snot.

Do White Mage's nukes suck? Yes. Why?

Take a moment.

Think about it.

Why do White Mage's nukes suck?

Oh yeah, because every other job that can nuke can nuke significantly better. What other standard is there to judge White Mage's nuking ability? Can White Mage still Atma-load up and kill some EM-level mobs with nuke spam? Sure. Does that makes WHM nukes un-suck? Nupe. Why? Because an Atma-loaded BLM is going to do 10x as much damage per nuke.

The only measure by which to define how good or bad a job is is a comparison to other jobs. Is Paladin a good healer? Hell no. Why? Because other healers are significantly better. Other jobs have significantly better gear access, significantly better traits, and a significantly stronger MP pool/MP recovery.

Why does Paladin healing suck? Because other jobs do it better.

Why does Summoner DD suck? Because other jobs do it better.

When you set your global bar low enough that every job in the game can surpass it, sure, no one will suck and Paladin will be an exceptional healer because it can leap over junk tier standards. Sure, Summoner is an amazing DD because it can soar over the expectation that any damage = good damage.

If you want to have crappy standards, go right ahead. But you won't get anywhere trying to convince other people that jobs are good just because they meet your par. Some of us expect more.

[Kwate]

Because one job has a higher spell tier doesn't mean the other sux, I'm not going to argue I know everything about the game, but the logic is off. So an 85 emp weapon sux because there is a 90 available? A tier 4 sux because there is a tier 5? Of course the Tier 5 wins but tier 4 can hold its weight and a viable 2nd option, you could list it as average or above average but certainly doesn't suck.

[Greatguardian]

Did Fire 3 suck at 75?

Yes.

People just seem to think that even low-tier crap is okay because it's still better than what we were used to at 75 =/. Being better when we're 15 levels higher isn't a sign that something's good. It's just common sense. I'd be more worried if Blizzard IV was "suck" on a static scale, considering the whole static scale has been inflated to hell and back.

Relative scales are the only scales that mean jack squat.

[Aeonk]

Did Fire 3 suck at 75?

Yes.

People just seem to think that even low-tier crap is okay because it's still better than what we were used to at 75 =/. Being better when we're 15 levels higher isn't a sign that something's good. It's just common sense. I'd be more worried if Blizzard IV was "suck" on a static scale, considering the whole static scale has been inflated to hell and back.

Relative scales are the only scales that mean jack squat.

Relativity only means something on paper, because it operates under the assumption that both jobs are being played by equally skilled/geared players. The reality: That NEVER happens. And the rare times it does, it's because the player knows their shit. They could tank on BLM if you asked them to.

Example: DRK on paper is on the low end of the totem pole right now, right? Which do you prefer, a DRK that understands concepts like gear swapping for TP/WS, or a WAR with AH gear that fulltimes DEX rings?

The same applies to mage jobs (healers, nukers, etc.) and tanks as well.

So personally, I'll take a good player along with me to kill stuff, despite what job they're on. If that means my standards are low, I can live with that.

Edit: Good players may not be as rare as I make it sound, but there's a reason that pick up groups are generally avoided, and you know exactly why. For every good NIN, WAR or MNK, there are 15 terrible ones.

[Greatguardian]

Inherently flawed argument all around. You can't compare a good Paladin to a crappy full pink NIN. That doesn't say anything about the jobs. It just says one player is retarded and the other is not.

If you have a good player, putting them on Paladin will outdamage a full Aurore NIN, but putting them on Warrior will outdamage their own Paladin by a landslide while simultaneously making them significantly more useful.

Being a good player is not a free pass to make whatever the hell crap job someone wants to play seem sooper awesome just because they're better than absolute troglodytes.