[dev1017] PLD proposed adjustments

[Dale]

If the RDM didn't offer Dia 2/3 for DEF Down, Slow II, Paralyze II, Addle, Help with Hastes, Refresh 2, a more effective stun due to faster recast then I'd agree RDM would be broken.

You are sidestepping your original point, which was you stating the paladin sucks at something just because another job can do it better. Even if Red Mage didn't have enfeebles, their nukes would still not suck. They are effective, rather a black mage can do it better or not - and that was my point.

[Zagen]

Oh God, you are one of those people who like to split up quotes, i should have known ; ;

I'll just answer you one at a time.

It depends on the situation. Lot of times a paladin won't even need a healer at all, as he can handle the healing himself, and i've yet to ever encounter a fight where I need a white mage, as my own heals combined with the lesser heals of say a red mage or even a dragoon are usually enough to keep me up. That's what i mean by they require less support, as a paladin brings healing to the table and other more offensive tanks do not.

You are just wrong that a paladin needs a white mage with him where ever he goes to surivive. They don't. Hell...i've seen dark knights tank without a white mage. If you need a white mage to support you against everything you fight then there is an issue there that has nothing to do with the paladin job.

I dunno point out a situation besides exploiting Ochain's block rate that a DD couldn't do what a PLD does without a healer.

You are sidestepping your original point, which was you stating the paladin sucks at something just because another job can do it better. Even if Red Mage didn't have enfeebles, their nukes would still not suck. They are effective, rather a black mage can do it better or not - and that was my point.

Why would you go with a job that can cast Blizzard IV when there is one that can cast Blizzard V and has better nuking gear available? I wouldn't. If I need enfeebles I go RDM, If I need nukes I go BLM its just that simple.

[Dale]

I dunno point out a situation besides exploiting Ochain's block rate that a DD couldn't do what a PLD does without a healer..

You would have to be more specific if you want me to give you specifics. When you say "DD" that means what exactly? What job combo? That could mean a lot of things...

I'll say this though:
The only way I can see the more offensive tanks compare to a paladin in this regard would be for them to sub dancer. However, doing this forces them to use their TP for cures intead of weapon skills, which is going to significantly reduce their offensive capablity. So it's basically a wash.

[Dale]

Why would you go with a job that can cast Blizzard IV when there is one that can cast Blizzard V and has better nuking gear available? I wouldn't. If I need enfeebles I go RDM, If I need nukes I go BLM its just that simple.

Bleh, as a Red Mage i can tell you I enjoy my nukes far more than my enfeebles, so naturally I disagree with your logic. Enfeebling is good on Rdm, but certainly doens't make or break the job - and to me in no way overshadows our other talents just because another job happens to have a higher tier on something. If all Red Mage had was his enfeebles, the job would seriously suck, and that's the glaring flaw in your obsessed with the best logic.

But in any case, we are getting off topic. The point was Red Mage nukes do not suck just because a Black Mage's nukes are better. That was the point. And it was a correct point.

[Greatguardian]

But in any case, we are getting off topic. The point was Red Mage nukes do not suck just because a Black Mage's nukes are better. That was the point. And it was a correct point.

noit'snot.

Do White Mage's nukes suck? Yes. Why?

Take a moment.

Think about it.

Why do White Mage's nukes suck?

Oh yeah, because every other job that can nuke can nuke significantly better. What other standard is there to judge White Mage's nuking ability? Can White Mage still Atma-load up and kill some EM-level mobs with nuke spam? Sure. Does that makes WHM nukes un-suck? Nupe. Why? Because an Atma-loaded BLM is going to do 10x as much damage per nuke.

The only measure by which to define how good or bad a job is is a comparison to other jobs. Is Paladin a good healer? Hell no. Why? Because other healers are significantly better. Other jobs have significantly better gear access, significantly better traits, and a significantly stronger MP pool/MP recovery.

Why does Paladin healing suck? Because other jobs do it better.

Why does Summoner DD suck? Because other jobs do it better.

When you set your global bar low enough that every job in the game can surpass it, sure, no one will suck and Paladin will be an exceptional healer because it can leap over junk tier standards. Sure, Summoner is an amazing DD because it can soar over the expectation that any damage = good damage.

If you want to have crappy standards, go right ahead. But you won't get anywhere trying to convince other people that jobs are good just because they meet your par. Some of us expect more.

[Dale]

noit'snot.

Do White Mage's nukes suck? Yes. Why?

Take a moment.

Think about it.

Why do White Mage's nukes suck?

Oh yeah, because every other job that can nuke can nuke significantly better. What other standard is there to judge White Mage's nuking ability? Can White Mage still Atma-load up and kill some EM-level mobs with nuke spam? Sure. Does that makes WHM nukes un-suck? Nupe. Why? Because an Atma-loaded BLM is going to do 10x as much damage per nuke.

The only measure by which to define how good or bad a job is is a comparison to other jobs. Is Paladin a good healer? Hell no. Why? Because other healers are significantly better. Other jobs have significantly better gear access, significantly better traits, and a significantly stronger MP pool/MP recovery.

Why does Paladin healing suck? Because other jobs do it better.

Why does Summoner DD suck? Because other jobs do it better.

When you set your global bar low enough that every job in the game can surpass it, sure, no one will suck and Paladin will be an exceptional healer because it can leap over junk tier standards. Sure, Summoner is an amazing DD because it can soar over the expectation that any damage = good damage.

If you want to have crappy standards, go right ahead. But you won't get anywhere trying to convince other people that jobs are good just because they meet your par. Some of us expect more.

Ok let me correct you.

White Mage nukes do not suck because other jobs can do better. White magic nukes suck because they do crap damage and aren't worth the mp to use. It has nothign to do with the fact other jobs can nuke better.

Same concept applies with Paladins. They aren't bad healers, and just because some jobs do a better job at it doens't mean they suck. These aren't crappy standards, they are reasonable standards. If something can get the job done, it doesn't suck. Period.

By your so called standards all nukes on the game suck but black mages. All heals on the game suck except white mages. I suppose all swords suck except almace and excaliber according to you. All shields suck cept Ochain and Aegis. There must be a lot of suckage in your life, since you see everything that isnt' the absolute best as the suck. It's a very limited and flawed way of looking at things.

[Zagen]

By your so called standards all nukes on the game suck but black mages. All heals on the game suck except white mages. I suppose all swords suck except almace and excaliber according to you. All shields suck cept Ochain and Aegis. There must be a lot of suckage in your life, since you see everything that isnt' the absolute best as the suck. It's a very limited and flawed way of looking at things.

You missed the point. Maybe this will make more sense to you. A BLM's IV nukes will do more damage than a RDM's because of the additional MAB and better nuke gear. Those factors make a RDM's nukes suck when compared to a BLM's nukes. When you add in higher tier version then it makes it much more obvious a RDM sucks as a nuker when a BLM is an alternative.

[Dale]

You missed the point. Maybe this will make more sense to you. A BLM's IV nukes will do more damage than a RDM's because of the additional MAB and better nuke gear. Those factors make a RDM's nukes suck when compared to a BLM's nukes. When you add in higher tier version then it makes it much more obvious a RDM sucks as a nuker when a BLM is an alternative.

No I did not miss the point.

Red Mage nukes do not suck. They do excellent damage and can kill things.

The fact Black Mages have better nukes and can do more damage does not change this fact. It simply means they are better at nuking than Red Mages are. That doens't mean however that Red Mages suck at it. One does not equal the other.