[dev1017] PLD proposed adjustments

[Zagen]

More than anything PLD needs a job trait that raises their own hate caps by at least 10%, another trait that negates or greatly mitigates hate loss and finally something to fight that can't be tanked by a BLM.

This solves nothing PLD still won't be used. X random DDs can all hold hate over mages, mitigate the same damage as PLD and do more damage than PLD thus they are better tanks. Bolded why PLD isn't used as a tank in old content and Abyssea.

Edit: better tanks as defined by the community as a whole.

[Lutschfactor]

im still doing the download things. but seems like with cover the person will still need to go behind the pld. which we all know even if ur zerging down anything ur not gonna move behind the pld. and the pld wont move behind u. least i dont. u die its on u not me. i dont expect shield bash to do better numbers either. and with an aegis prolly not gonna be much more maybe 300-350. not gonna be anything high like 500 or so. and considering ochain and aegis are the best shields in the game. i would thing aegis would do more then ochain but we all know this dev team. they love abyssea things. so im honestly expecting ochain to do at least 400 and up and still aegis is shit on even tho it does more to shield bash due to it being a real item to obtain and all.

Edit: first shield bash on a spider in misery. 285 seems like they did nothing with aegis for shiled bash

[Arlan]

I would like to add some of my own opinion since I have PLD since 2006.

The main reason i played PLD back in 2006 was because I wanted to be Tank.

I have WHM for Main healing.
I have DRK for DDing
I have SMN and DRG for soloing and duoing
I have BRD for buffing parties and constantly pulling mobs and sleeping them.

I wanted a different gameplay. I wanted to Tank. Hold a monster and take the lowest damage possible and be the 1st to die for my parties' survival.

Note: Ninjas have High evasions and Shadows to tank efficiently without getting hit. (Thats the idea of course)


But with PLD, its about Getting Hit, but for WAY LESS than any other jobs. And it can heal itself very effectively.
I decided to do PLD for that very reason.

As a PLD, I expect abilities or spells or Job traits and even gear or atmas that can make PLD do what it suppose to.
I do not mind doing damage as PLD, but if I wanted to be a DD, I wouldn't be playing PLD for DDing. Nor would I play PLD for soloing. If I play PLD, I wana Play PLD as a Tank. What it was made to be.

As a PLD:
I expect to have abilities to hold LOTs OF HATE!
I expect to have abilities or traits to Reduce Major Damages that NMs or monsters do.
I expect WSs that PULL HUGE amounts of Hate and Reduces the Monster's damage input to me and the whole party
(Not damage wise. I'm speaking Enmity Wise)

PLD doesn't need HUGE Damage input to hold hate.
PLD needs a trait that keeps hate and reduces damage per hit it takes, gains hate per hit they take, and per hit they make.

More abilities to use to increase the monsters attention and reduces the monsters attacks.

What I want to see is a PLD take 20 damage from an NM or a monster that normally does 200+ damage per hit on other jobs you see out there!

Is that overpowered? IN NO WAY IT IS!

Why do I say it is NOT overpowered? Because THF and NIN tanks rarely get "Hits" in abyssea for example. While PLDs get hit like a B@#*$! PLDs need to match up with THF and NIN tanks so PLDs can be better if not, equal with NIN and thfs.

Evasion Tanking is a Big deal because if monsters rarely hit you, and you can hold hate, You are very effeciant job choice for events.

Imagen PLD's being effecaint Tanking by having abilities and traits to hold HUGE amounts of Hate while taking HUGE amount of reduced Damages that no jobs out there can take!? Then we can be equal to NIN and THF.

If anything, Call NIN and THF overpowered but with what Im saying if SE improves on for PLD, Then PLDs will be useful again because of "How much HATE" it holds AND the amount of damage they take is Massively low where Its just as good as having a NIN or THF evasion tanking.

I dont care if Shield Bash does some Damage. Thats stupid!
Make Shield Bash take 50% Hate or more from the mob!!!!

I dont care if PLDs can do more Damage!
Make PLDs take Something like 20 damage that equals to 200+ damage from other jobs that take from Mobs!

Make PLD's Equally baddass in tanking if not, better by having abilities to grab hate!

Thats all I have to say lol.

[Zagen]

Why you love/thoughts about PLD

The thing is a majority of why you chose PLD wasn't anymore true in 2006 than it is today.

Back then PLD tanked with an Earth Staff even in EXP parties, it was accepted that a dedicated TANK slot was needed when it wasn't. PLD was nice HNMs back in the day before DDs really had the boosts they've gotten over the years.

Back then a RDM/NIN was the best defensive tank, granted you had to know how to play it and how hate worked both of which wasn't completely understood back then. RDM/NIN got nerfed in an era that didn't even need a dedicated tank anymore so I'm not sure why SE did that.

The reason I and a few others in the past have advocated giving PLD a more aggressive role in the game is because right now it takes roughly 2 HP cured to equal 1 damage dealt. Inside abyssea, BCNM fights (new and old), and/or old content DDs deal a lot of damage and will generally take the same damage a PLD would take meaning they can not only fill the role of DD but the role of TANK as well which in turn means a quicker end to the fight.

That said Voidwatch from my understanding is very much PLD required at least for some of the fights which is nice and sad to hear. I mean as it stands right now my PLD will see the light outside of town if my friend/LS ever decides to try Voidwatch until then it sits in town occasionally at best.

1 event does not equate to a fixed job. Either all new content will need to be on the scale of Voidwatch so PLD starts showing up again in groups who want to be efficient or PLD needs an offensive boost so it can be a Tank and a DD. Thus welcome in the current gameplay because even if they took 20 damage instead of 200 when a single WHM can manage the DD taking 200 damage hits and the DDs aren't losing hate to the mages PLD won't be needed.

[Arlan]

The thing is a majority of why you chose PLD wasn't anymore true in 2006 than it is today.

Back then PLD tanked with an Earth Staff even in EXP parties, it was accepted that a dedicated TANK slot was needed when it wasn't. PLD was nice HNMs back in the day before DDs really had the boosts they've gotten over the years.

Back then a RDM/NIN was the best defensive tank, granted you had to know how to play it and how hate worked both of which wasn't completely understood back then. RDM/NIN got nerfed in an era that didn't even need a dedicated tank anymore so I'm not sure why SE did that.

The reason I and a few others in the past have advocated giving PLD a more aggressive role in the game is because right now it takes roughly 2 HP cured to equal 1 damage dealt. Inside abyssea, BCNM fights (new and old), and/or old content DDs deal a lot of damage and will generally take the same damage a PLD would take meaning they can not only fill the role of DD but the role of TANK as well which in turn means a quicker end to the fight.

That said Voidwatch from my understanding is very much PLD required at least for some of the fights which is nice and sad to hear. I mean as it stands right now my PLD will see the light outside of town if my friend/LS ever decides to try Voidwatch until then it sits in town occasionally at best.

1 event does not equate to a fixed job. Either all new content will need to be on the scale of Voidwatch so PLD starts showing up again in groups who want to be efficient or PLD needs an offensive boost so it can be a Tank and a DD. Thus welcome in the current gameplay because even if they took 20 damage instead of 200 when a single WHM can manage the DD taking 200 damage hits and the DDs aren't losing hate to the mages PLD won't be needed.

I never said "Why you love/thoughts about PLD" why did you quote that? lol
Other than that, I understand what your saying. Good reply.

I just want to be back in the Tanking business is all =(

[Zagen]

I never said "Why you love/thoughts about PLD"

I summarized your post so it wasn't a giant quote ^^

[Arlan]

I summarized your post so it wasn't a giant quote ^^

Ok then lol

[Twille]

I would like to add some of my own opinion since I have PLD since 2006.

The main reason i played PLD back in 2006 was because I wanted to be Tank.

I have WHM for Main healing.
I have DRK for DDing
I have SMN and DRG for soloing and duoing
I have BRD for buffing parties and constantly pulling mobs and sleeping them.

I wanted a different gameplay. I wanted to Tank. Hold a monster and take the lowest damage possible and be the 1st to die for my parties' survival.

Note: Ninjas have High evasions and Shadows to tank efficiently without getting hit. (Thats the idea of course)


But with PLD, its about Getting Hit, but for WAY LESS than any other jobs. And it can heal itself very effectively.
I decided to do PLD for that very reason.

As a PLD, I expect abilities or spells or Job traits and even gear or atmas that can make PLD do what it suppose to.
I do not mind doing damage as PLD, but if I wanted to be a DD, I wouldn't be playing PLD for DDing. Nor would I play PLD for soloing. If I play PLD, I wana Play PLD as a Tank. What it was made to be.

As a PLD:
I expect to have abilities to hold LOTs OF HATE!
I expect to have abilities or traits to Reduce Major Damages that NMs or monsters do.
I expect WSs that PULL HUGE amounts of Hate and Reduces the Monster's damage input to me and the whole party
(Not damage wise. I'm speaking Enmity Wise)

PLD doesn't need HUGE Damage input to hold hate.
PLD needs a trait that keeps hate and reduces damage per hit it takes, gains hate per hit they take, and per hit they make.

More abilities to use to increase the monsters attention and reduces the monsters attacks.

What I want to see is a PLD take 20 damage from an NM or a monster that normally does 200+ damage per hit on other jobs you see out there!

Is that overpowered? IN NO WAY IT IS!

Why do I say it is NOT overpowered? Because THF and NIN tanks rarely get "Hits" in abyssea for example. While PLDs get hit like a B@#*$! PLDs need to match up with THF and NIN tanks so PLDs can be better if not, equal with NIN and thfs.

Evasion Tanking is a Big deal because if monsters rarely hit you, and you can hold hate, You are very effeciant job choice for events.

Imagen PLD's being effecaint Tanking by having abilities and traits to hold HUGE amounts of Hate while taking HUGE amount of reduced Damages that no jobs out there can take!? Then we can be equal to NIN and THF.

If anything, Call NIN and THF overpowered but with what Im saying if SE improves on for PLD, Then PLDs will be useful again because of "How much HATE" it holds AND the amount of damage they take is Massively low where Its just as good as having a NIN or THF evasion tanking.

I dont care if Shield Bash does some Damage. Thats stupid!
Make Shield Bash take 50% Hate or more from the mob!!!!

I dont care if PLDs can do more Damage!
Make PLDs take Something like 20 damage that equals to 200+ damage from other jobs that take from Mobs!

Make PLD's Equally baddass in tanking if not, better by having abilities to grab hate!

Thats all I have to say lol.

Quoted for truth.
I've felt this way for a LONG time. I think SE should just give PLDs a job trait equivalent to PDT/MDT-x%.

[hiko]

Quoted for truth.
I've felt this way for a LONG time. I think SE should just give PLDs a job trait equivalent to PDT/MDT-x%.

damage resistance instead of damage taken (same thing but separate term )

[Greatguardian]

^ Agreed. New content requiring Paladin is always helpful. Though really, and I'm always shot down whenever I say this, I'm of the firm belief that Almace/Ochain/Burtgang+ fixed the majority of what was wrong with Paladin.

Now, can just anyone get an Ochain? Well, yes, but for the sake of argument let's say no because it's a pain in the ass to get and a vast majority of people are lazy/unable to work well with others. So a lot of people don't like to consider an equipment-specific fix a fix to the Paladin job. However, Paladin has always been a particularly equipment-heavy job. Back in its hey-day, it was one of the most complex jobs around, and required easily 3-4x as much gear as any other job in the game bar a good RDM. A lot of that gear was R/EX and/or extremely expensive. None of that has changed.

Now, is that to say that Paladin can't be mildly effective without awesome gear? No. I've most definitely tanked Sandworm and other HNM-esque mobs with little more than AF, a turban, and 500k's worth of whatever I could find after my character was hacked in 2008. Kept pace with my Aegis co-tank too. But that doesn't mean I was anywhere near as good as I could and should have been without my equipment and working macros.

Anyone serious about Paladin and utilizing it post-Abyssea should start investing the time and energy into completing a 90 Ochain. If you want tips for making that nightmare easier? Feel free to ask. If you just want to complain about how hard it is and freak out about how gear shouldn't be required to make a job work? Well, it's your right to post, but I've honestly heard it all before.