[dev1017] PLD proposed adjustments

[Dale]

Actually you haven't done that or anything remotely close to that yet.

At best all you've done is point out that when there isn't anything better available then PLD is awesome.

Actually I have done that.

And the best you've done is say everthing sucks because someone else can do it better...

[Greatguardian]

NO. I think White Magic nukes suck because they do crap damage for the mp used. It has nothing to do with a Black Mage. If i tried to kill something with my white magic nukes I would be out of MP before the monster was under 75% health. That is why they suck...it has nothing to do with the black mage, or any other mage for that matter.

They suck because they are not effective. Period.

Now I understand you hate paladins and think they are usless. We have established this. I've pointed out why you are wrong, and that's all I can do.

So how exactly are you judging what can be considered effective and what can't? What is it that White Mage is unable to kill via nukes? How long is too long? How little damage per MP point is too little? White Mage can definitely nuke things to death if they want.

You are drawing completely arbitrary lines and then stepping over as many of them as you want.

Is Banish III super awesome because it can do 500 damage? If no one else could do 500 damage in one hit, damn straight that would be awesome. WHM would be the single best nuker around. If Black mage was doing 400 damage per Blizzard V, then White Mage would be flipping amazing.

Is Vorpal Blade a really cool guy who doesn't afraid of anything because it can average 2k-2.5k in Abyssea? Considering a damn good DD at 75 was lucking to average that high in an ideal environment, sure it may look that way. But is it actually any good? Absolutely not. Vorpal Blade is utter crap. Why? Because it's normal for any good DD to be averaging 4k-5k in Abyssea, and the gap widens tremendously in the real DD's favor outside.

Things are good because of how much they do relative to something else. Is 100 damage/minute good? Is 1,000? Is 10,000? 100,000? How the hell would you know? Oh, that's right, because you can see how much other jobs can do and compare them.

[Dale]

So how exactly are you judging what can be considered effective and what can't? What is it that White Mage is unable to kill via nukes? How long is too long? How little damage per MP point is too little? White Mage can definitely nuke things to death if they want.

.

I've already explained this to you a million times, but I guess I will once again.

If it gets the job done then it's effective.

I can't kill crap with my white mage nukes cause they suck. They would run me out of mp long before the monster was even hardly scratched.

The black magic nukes however (yes, even the tier 4 ones) do quite well and make things go dead.

It's a simple concept and I don't know why you are having such a hard time understanding it. If it works it's good. If it doens't, then it sucks.

[Greatguardian]

My White mage can kill "Things" with nukes. It can do "Quite Well" as long as I'm not comparing it to how well Black Mage does. It can get the job done.

That doesn't make it good.

[Dale]

My White mage can kill "Things" with nukes. It can do "Quite Well" as long as I'm not comparing it to how well Black Mage does. It can get the job done.

That doesn't make it good.

Well I don't play white mage so i can't really say, but I know on my pld my white magic nukes suck and I can't kill anything with them. All Holy and Banish II would do is drain my mp and not hurt the monster. In fact - they should rename the HOly Spell to Waste of MP spell, because that's what it is if you ask me. My log should read "jeremi cast Waste of MP" when i use it.

So from my standpoint, your arugment don't hold water. They just suck.

I use my nukes when I play on my red mage.

I don't go anywhere near my nukes when I play my Pld. They don't get the job done. I highly doubt they would if I played white mage either, but since I don't i will refrain from making that claim

That is my point. It has nothing to do with black mage or blue mage or any other mage.

[Greatguardian]

"Get the job done".

WHM can kill things with nukes, it just takes longer than BLM.

Paladin can kill things with melee, it just takes longer than WAR.

What the hell can't get the job done in the majority of content in this game. Can a Paladin heal and have people survive? Possibly. Doesn't mean anyone does it. Can a White Mage nuke and kill things? Sure. Doesn't mean anyone does it.

Whm nuking isn't popular because it sucks, but it can "Get the job done" fine if someone's dense enough to do it. That doesn't make it less suck.

[Nicholiathan]

More than anything PLD needs a job trait that raises their own hate caps by at least 10%, another trait that negates or greatly mitigates hate loss and finally something to fight that can't be tanked by a BLM.

[Zagen]

More than anything PLD needs a job trait that raises their own hate caps by at least 10%, another trait that negates or greatly mitigates hate loss and finally something to fight that can't be tanked by a BLM.

This solves nothing PLD still won't be used. X random DDs can all hold hate over mages, mitigate the same damage as PLD and do more damage than PLD thus they are better tanks. Bolded why PLD isn't used as a tank in old content and Abyssea.

Edit: better tanks as defined by the community as a whole.

[Lutschfactor]

im still doing the download things. but seems like with cover the person will still need to go behind the pld. which we all know even if ur zerging down anything ur not gonna move behind the pld. and the pld wont move behind u. least i dont. u die its on u not me. i dont expect shield bash to do better numbers either. and with an aegis prolly not gonna be much more maybe 300-350. not gonna be anything high like 500 or so. and considering ochain and aegis are the best shields in the game. i would thing aegis would do more then ochain but we all know this dev team. they love abyssea things. so im honestly expecting ochain to do at least 400 and up and still aegis is shit on even tho it does more to shield bash due to it being a real item to obtain and all.

Edit: first shield bash on a spider in misery. 285 seems like they did nothing with aegis for shiled bash

[Secure]

I think one of the biggest problems with the argument here is that Dale is consistently focusing on whether something is "effective". While others might be looking to argue that something is more or less "efficient".

Effective - producing a decided, decisive, or desired effect <an effective policy>

Now if we're talking about whether or not a job has the capability to produce the desired results, well now we're going to have to look at what the desired result actually is. For some people it's simply to win and in this case any kind of damage output or whatever will work including tactics like DOT kiting. Hence any job can be considered effective. For others the objective of winning is essentially guaranteed as most content is mind numbingly easy so the only real issue is speeding things up to make farming more "efficient".

Efficient - productive of desired effects; especially : productive without waste <an efficient worker>

This is where the real contention should lie. If you go back and compare a Red Mage to a Black Mage when it comes to damage output of spells vs. MP cost. Well, Black Mage is going to win, not only do they have superior increases to overall damage through equipment they also have a more potent MAB job trait (2 more levels of it in fact). We can spin this for any DD as well. While a PLD may in fact be able to deal damage and "effectively" kill and/or tank whatever prey it attacks, a stronger DD (say MNK, WAR, etc.) will undoubtedly be able to do it faster due to increased TP phase dmg/ws dmg/native traits/JAs.

Can a PLD deal damage? Yes
Can a PLD deal more damage and faster than other DD jobs? Most likely not.
Can a RDM nuke? Yes
Can a RDM do more dmg and kill faster than a BLM would? Definitely not.

In summation, PLD + WHM duo can effectively kill off an NM. MNK + WHM duo can kill that NM more efficiently by using the same resources and getting the job done considerably quicker.

P.S. An easier comparison for spell efficiency - Red Mage does 800 dmg Blizzard IV, Black Mage casts the same spell for 1500 dmg. Assuming no conserve MP procs obviously the BLM is more "efficient" because he is using the same MP/spell and doing considerably more DMG. It would take the blm 20 casts to kill a monster with 30k HP and 37.5 casts for a RDM to kill that same monster assuming the same damage occurred on every cast. (Variances in dmg should not change this much unless these spells are resisted heavily and often)