[dev1017] Yonin/Innin

[scaevola]

Wow yeah man, if only dual wielders got something to compensate for having like 30 less accuracy

maybe having what amounts to a second haste stat that stacks with the first might help

why, such an advantage might be considered so massive, i could see it being a fair justification for 2-handers to have more-favorable dex>accuracy conversions in the first place!

EDIT: I would not argue that NINs will do less damage than WARs, but the questions (real questions, not rhetorical ones) are

1) how do they do when stacked up against other two-hander jobs, ones that are not considered far and away the strongest job in the game with really no room for debate, and

2) if the not-at-all uncontroversial claim that NIN damage is too low turns out to be true, is it so low to justify buffing it in light of all of the other shit NIN has going for it? If anyone "deserves" to be the top DD, it's RNG; they literally can't do anything but DD, and even that has clunky restrictions.

[wish12oz]

Wow yeah man, if only dual wielders got something to compensate for having like 30 less accuracy

maybe having what amounts to a second haste stat that stacks with the first might help

THIS:
EDIT: Maybe I should lay this out for you because you don't seem to understand the mechanic and the main problem.

For 2 handed weapons, dex is turned into acc at a rate of 3 acc per 4 dex.
For 1 handed weapons its converted at 2 acc per 4 dex.

Currently at 90, 145~ dex is currently where my ninja sits, using the 1 handed conversion, this gives you 72 accuracy, using the 2 handed forumula this is worth 108 accuracy.
36 accuracy is 17% hit rate, or 17% damage, ITS A BIG DEAL, and it's just going to get worse as levels increase and dex goes higher.


And seriously, even with that increased attack speed, YOU'RE 30% BEHIND ON NINJA. Seriously kid, right now, when acc is not a problem, an ukon war beats a kannagi ninja by 30%, that's with the ninja using the best possible gear and having capped acc and both using meat and having the same buffs. Give both just haste or give both haste and double march, which caps the ninjas delay reduction, and not the wars and the ninja is 30% behind. Give the war capped delay reduction too and you're looking at a 50% damage difference. What I am saying is this is not acceptable. Why you think it is, is just beyond my comprehension apparently.

And since you ask, Amano SAM or Masa SAM, or Calabolg DRK Apoc DRK, are all 10-30% above Kannagi NIN also. Ryuhinge DRG would be just under a WARs potential, and MNK is even with NIN, since you know, lol1handedacc. Anything else?

[scaevola]

And since you ask, Amano SAM or Masa SAM, or Calabolg DRK Apoc DRK, are all 10-30% above Kannagi NIN also. Ryuhinge DRG would be just under a WARs potential, and MNK is even with NIN, since you know, lol1handedacc. Anything else?

A few things, mostly ending in "Ichi" or "Ni". All these dudes cut loose on the same target and only the NIN and MNK (maybe the SAM) are alive 2 minutes in.

[wish12oz]

A few things, mostly ending in "Ichi" or "Ni".

This doesn't even make sense.

[scaevola]

This doesn't even make sense.

I am not surprised you think that!

Ninja is only useful for a DD tank, if it can't do enough damage to keep up with other melees, it's useless. To make Ninja not keep up enough to hold hate, all you need to do is fight T or higher mobs. With everything ninja has going for it right now, Ninja is 30% behind, and can't hold hate outside abyssea on any new content.

So enlighten me; who IS doing enough damage while maintaining enough survivability to tank right now? (by the way if you are crying because somebody wanted to use a PLD in voidwatch this conversation is over)

[scaevola]

oh, also, re: you being a sillyhead

Innin is completely useless to anyone that knows how to play ninja. It takes all of 30-40 seconds to cap your enmity, and after that as long as you had the last action on the mob, the mob will be facing you, and ninjas attack really fast, meaning the mob will just about always be facing you meaning the only effect you get from innin is -evasion, and maybe 1 attack out of 20 you'll gain the crit rate increase from it. To fix innin you need to remove the "You must stand behind the mob" requirement from it.

If everybody caps enmity in 30 seconds and NINs tank by swinging really fast and thus perpetually being the last person to connect a hit, why do you need to do more damage to effectly tank higher-tier content?

[wish12oz]

If everybody caps enmity in 30 seconds and NINs tank by swinging really fast and thus perpetually being the last person to connect a hit, why do you need to do more damage to effectly tank higher-tier content?

Obviously, it's because on higher tier content, you can't do enough damage to cap enmity, unless you use innin, which makes the mobs face you, which makes innin not work anymore and makes the mob face away from you again. Or, if the mob is to high above you, even with innin your damage is so poor the mob never looks at you, and you end up being a waste of a party slot and just feeding mobs TP for no reason and should of played something else.

And you don't need to do more damage then everyone else, you need to stay on par with them, anything within 20% of everyone else is enough if you're first provoking and have any sort of +enmity. Whether the fights are short or long, this is how it works. If the fights are short, no one will ever get drastically ahead of you enough to pull hate, and if they do it will be with a WS, and the mob will die right after. And if the fights are long, you'll all cap hate at about the same time, and then it's all about you attacking fast and always connecting. If you don't understand such simple game mechanics, maybe that's where you should start reading. Instead of coming into this thread with a lack of understanding and trying to argue against stuff you don't even understand I suggest reading up about it somewhere.

But again, you could just eat a pizza, cap your accuracy, and tank fine with capped haste/dw because the mob's attacking the last guy that hit it, per your Innin crying, right?

I really do think you're just crying because Voidwatch almost sort of looks like PLD caught a break.

You can't eat pizza and stay on par with the other melees, acc food is stupid and pizza wouldn't even cap your accuracy. Why don't you get this?

And I do Voidwatch on WAR or DRK, thanks, I make the ochain tank. And if it dies I tank on WAR or DRK, because even if I was on ninja, I wouldn't have hate, and having hate over the BLMs is important, ninja can't get there, war and drk easily do. If it was feasible at all to bring ninja, I would do it, but ninja is a waste of a party slot and doesn't do enough damage to justify the tp it gives the mobs. Other jobs have much better damage/tp ratios, as well as just plain doing 20x more then a ninja, and can at least hold hate if the ochain dies. Where as ninja couldn't even get hate if the ochain dies, so all that evasion and those shadows it has are useless.

[wish12oz]

I am not surprised you think that!

Why don't you enlighten me then.

So enlighten me; who IS doing enough damage while maintaining enough survivability to tank right now? (by the way if you are crying because somebody wanted to use a PLD in voidwatch this conversation is over)

If the mobs are difficult at all, no one is maintaining enough damage and survivability to tank effectively. Ninja should be doing it, but its even harder now then it was before the level cap increase, and as I've repeatedly pointed out, ninja was pretty useless before the level cap increase, so it's even more useless now outside of abyssea and old weak content, like sky/einherjar/etc.

But hey, maybe that's why when you go to dynamis there's people fighting EPs, and that's it. Because fighting the VT mobs is to difficult because there's no one that can effectively tank.

And mobs in voidwatch are to difficult for ninja to tank, since your acc is so poor and you can't keep hate, but hey, maybe when they increase the level by 5, you'll be able to manage on weak old content original tier Voidwalkers, but you won't be useful for the new ones, or any other new content they add.

[wish12oz]

2) if the not-at-all uncontroversial claim that NIN damage is too low turns out to be true, is it so low to justify buffing it in light of all of the other shit NIN has going for it? If anyone "deserves" to be the top DD, it's RNG; they literally can't do anything but DD, and even that has clunky restrictions.

Ninja is only useful for a DD tank, if it can't do enough damage to keep up with other melees, it's useless. To make Ninja not keep up enough to hold hate, all you need to do is fight T or higher mobs. With everything ninja has going for it right now, Ninja is 30% behind, and can't hold hate outside abyssea on any new content.