[dev1017] Yonin/Innin

[scaevola]

And since you ask, Amano SAM or Masa SAM, or Calabolg DRK Apoc DRK, are all 10-30% above Kannagi NIN also. Ryuhinge DRG would be just under a WARs potential, and MNK is even with NIN, since you know, lol1handedacc. Anything else?

A few things, mostly ending in "Ichi" or "Ni". All these dudes cut loose on the same target and only the NIN and MNK (maybe the SAM) are alive 2 minutes in.

[wish12oz]

2) if the not-at-all uncontroversial claim that NIN damage is too low turns out to be true, is it so low to justify buffing it in light of all of the other shit NIN has going for it? If anyone "deserves" to be the top DD, it's RNG; they literally can't do anything but DD, and even that has clunky restrictions.

Ninja is only useful for a DD tank, if it can't do enough damage to keep up with other melees, it's useless. To make Ninja not keep up enough to hold hate, all you need to do is fight T or higher mobs. With everything ninja has going for it right now, Ninja is 30% behind, and can't hold hate outside abyssea on any new content.

[wish12oz]

A few things, mostly ending in "Ichi" or "Ni".

This doesn't even make sense.

[scaevola]

This doesn't even make sense.

I am not surprised you think that!

Ninja is only useful for a DD tank, if it can't do enough damage to keep up with other melees, it's useless. To make Ninja not keep up enough to hold hate, all you need to do is fight T or higher mobs. With everything ninja has going for it right now, Ninja is 30% behind, and can't hold hate outside abyssea on any new content.

So enlighten me; who IS doing enough damage while maintaining enough survivability to tank right now? (by the way if you are crying because somebody wanted to use a PLD in voidwatch this conversation is over)

[scaevola]

oh, also, re: you being a sillyhead

Innin is completely useless to anyone that knows how to play ninja. It takes all of 30-40 seconds to cap your enmity, and after that as long as you had the last action on the mob, the mob will be facing you, and ninjas attack really fast, meaning the mob will just about always be facing you meaning the only effect you get from innin is -evasion, and maybe 1 attack out of 20 you'll gain the crit rate increase from it. To fix innin you need to remove the "You must stand behind the mob" requirement from it.

If everybody caps enmity in 30 seconds and NINs tank by swinging really fast and thus perpetually being the last person to connect a hit, why do you need to do more damage to effectly tank higher-tier content?

[wish12oz]

I am not surprised you think that!

Why don't you enlighten me then.

So enlighten me; who IS doing enough damage while maintaining enough survivability to tank right now? (by the way if you are crying because somebody wanted to use a PLD in voidwatch this conversation is over)

If the mobs are difficult at all, no one is maintaining enough damage and survivability to tank effectively. Ninja should be doing it, but its even harder now then it was before the level cap increase, and as I've repeatedly pointed out, ninja was pretty useless before the level cap increase, so it's even more useless now outside of abyssea and old weak content, like sky/einherjar/etc.

But hey, maybe that's why when you go to dynamis there's people fighting EPs, and that's it. Because fighting the VT mobs is to difficult because there's no one that can effectively tank.

And mobs in voidwatch are to difficult for ninja to tank, since your acc is so poor and you can't keep hate, but hey, maybe when they increase the level by 5, you'll be able to manage on weak old content original tier Voidwalkers, but you won't be useful for the new ones, or any other new content they add.

[scaevola]

Why don't you enlighten me then.

On top of at-the-very-least-above-average damage, NIN gets access to the best accuracy/attack rate debuff loadout in the game after RDM, great evasion, nine shadows per Utsu Ni/Ichi rotation to everyone else's six, a "free" subjob slot since everybody else has to sub NIN on anything remotely meaningful, basically a huge skillset that screams "I specialize in not getting hit and thus not dying" more than any other job except PLD.

It is not inappropriate for a job that handles being attacked so incredibly well to do less damage than jobs that don't.

And mobs in voidwatch are to difficult for ninja to tank, since your acc is so poor and you can't keep hate, but hey, maybe when they increase the level by 5, you'll be able to manage on weak old content original tier Voidwalkers, but you won't be useful for the new ones, or any other new content they add.

But again, you could just eat a pizza, cap your accuracy, and tank fine with capped haste/dw because the mob's attacking the last guy that hit it, per your Innin crying, right?

I really do think you're just crying because Voidwatch almost sort of looks like PLD caught a break.

[wish12oz]

If everybody caps enmity in 30 seconds and NINs tank by swinging really fast and thus perpetually being the last person to connect a hit, why do you need to do more damage to effectly tank higher-tier content?

Obviously, it's because on higher tier content, you can't do enough damage to cap enmity, unless you use innin, which makes the mobs face you, which makes innin not work anymore and makes the mob face away from you again. Or, if the mob is to high above you, even with innin your damage is so poor the mob never looks at you, and you end up being a waste of a party slot and just feeding mobs TP for no reason and should of played something else.

And you don't need to do more damage then everyone else, you need to stay on par with them, anything within 20% of everyone else is enough if you're first provoking and have any sort of +enmity. Whether the fights are short or long, this is how it works. If the fights are short, no one will ever get drastically ahead of you enough to pull hate, and if they do it will be with a WS, and the mob will die right after. And if the fights are long, you'll all cap hate at about the same time, and then it's all about you attacking fast and always connecting. If you don't understand such simple game mechanics, maybe that's where you should start reading. Instead of coming into this thread with a lack of understanding and trying to argue against stuff you don't even understand I suggest reading up about it somewhere.

But again, you could just eat a pizza, cap your accuracy, and tank fine with capped haste/dw because the mob's attacking the last guy that hit it, per your Innin crying, right?

I really do think you're just crying because Voidwatch almost sort of looks like PLD caught a break.

You can't eat pizza and stay on par with the other melees, acc food is stupid and pizza wouldn't even cap your accuracy. Why don't you get this?

And I do Voidwatch on WAR or DRK, thanks, I make the ochain tank. And if it dies I tank on WAR or DRK, because even if I was on ninja, I wouldn't have hate, and having hate over the BLMs is important, ninja can't get there, war and drk easily do. If it was feasible at all to bring ninja, I would do it, but ninja is a waste of a party slot and doesn't do enough damage to justify the tp it gives the mobs. Other jobs have much better damage/tp ratios, as well as just plain doing 20x more then a ninja, and can at least hold hate if the ochain dies. Where as ninja couldn't even get hate if the ochain dies, so all that evasion and those shadows it has are useless.

[scaevola]

Obviously, it's because on higher tier content, you can't do enough damage to cap enmity,

lol

HEAR THAT, PLDS?

[wish12oz]

lol

HEAR THAT, PLDS?

Cause PLD cap enmity only through damage amirite!? It's not like they use JAs, or Flash or any of that, whats ninja have again? oh ya, provoke.
Did you even read that whole paragraph I wrote, or did you just not get it?

Here I'll post it again for you since you don't seem to understand.

Obviously, it's because on higher tier content, you can't do enough damage to cap enmity, unless you use innin, which makes the mobs face you, which makes innin not work anymore and makes the mob face away from you again. Or, if the mob is to high above you, even with innin your damage is so poor the mob never looks at you, and you end up being a waste of a party slot and just feeding mobs TP for no reason and should of played something else.