[dev1017] Yonin/Innin

[scaevola]

Just because you do not understand the benefit of capping crit rate through DEX, doesn't mean the concept is lost on those of us who like to do good damage.

ACCURACY IS SUPPOSED TO BE A MEANINGFUL MECHANIC. CAPPING IT IS SUPPOSED TO INVOLVE MAKING SACRIFICES.

[wish12oz]

ACCURACY IS SUPPOSED TO BE A MEANINGFUL MECHANIC. CAPPING IT IS SUPPOSED TO INVOLVE MAKING SACRIFICES.

It requires great sacrifice on the part of 1 handed weapon users, and not on the part of 2 handed weapon users, how do you fail to comprehend this, and that it is the problem? Not to mention the fact that as the level cap goes up, dex will increase giving even more of an advantage to 2 handed users.

EDIT: Maybe I should lay this out for you because you don't seem to understand the mechanic and the main problem.

For 2 handed weapons, dex is turned into acc at a rate of 3 acc per 4 dex.
For 1 handed weapons its converted at 2 acc per 4 dex.

Currently at 90, 145~ dex is currently where my ninja sits, using the 1 handed conversion, this gives you 72 accuracy, using the 2 handed forumula this is worth 108 accuracy.
36 accuracy is 17% hit rate, or 17% damage, ITS A BIG DEAL, and it's just going to get worse as levels increase and dex goes higher.

[scaevola]

Wow yeah man, if only dual wielders got something to compensate for having like 30 less accuracy

maybe having what amounts to a second haste stat that stacks with the first might help

why, such an advantage might be considered so massive, i could see it being a fair justification for 2-handers to have more-favorable dex>accuracy conversions in the first place!

EDIT: I would not argue that NINs will do less damage than WARs, but the questions (real questions, not rhetorical ones) are

1) how do they do when stacked up against other two-hander jobs, ones that are not considered far and away the strongest job in the game with really no room for debate, and

2) if the not-at-all uncontroversial claim that NIN damage is too low turns out to be true, is it so low to justify buffing it in light of all of the other shit NIN has going for it? If anyone "deserves" to be the top DD, it's RNG; they literally can't do anything but DD, and even that has clunky restrictions.

[Ravenmore]

It was the same before the 2hander update since the best exp mob in the game took pircing dmg like thier was no tomarrow, sams used polearms drgs got acc JTs. Or how bout the 5 years beore the 2hander update duel weild was king.

Also SE nerfing /drk makes thier postion clear.

[wish12oz]

It was the same before the 2hander update since the best exp mob in the game took pircing dmg like thier was no tomarrow, sams used polearms drgs got acc JTs. Or how bout the 5 years beore the 2hander update duel weild was king.

So because dual wielding was better for 2-3 years, that means it being inferior for the last 5 and continuing this on into the future forever is ok? How about we just balance it out so they do the same amount. Piercing weak mobs have nothing to do with this conversation.

And ya, /drk nerf, ninja get hate from being first provoke, and doing decent damage. If they don't do decent damage they don't tank, and ninja cannot do decent damage compared to other melees on anything above tough, and needs this looked at, end of discussion.

[Ravenmore]

You have no idea how /drk and could cap hate faster then a JA spaming pld. Back before the nerf to spells like sleep bind poision if you were not /drk on HNM you failed.

[wish12oz]

You have no idea how /drk and could cap hate faster then a JA spaming pld. Back before the nerf to spells like sleep bind poision if you were not /drk on HNM you failed.

If you brought ninjas you failed, PLD held hate better, had more defensive abilities and did more damage (atonement says hi)

BTW, is this you: http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Phoenix/Scaevola ?
nice ninja.

[scaevola]

BTW, is this you: http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Phoenix/Scaevola ?
nice ninja.

http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Cerberus/Scaevola is me. Pretty good :umad:, though; I can only imagine the rush you must have felt when you found a disappointing ffxiah profile* you thought was me!

Anyway, my own experience suggests NIN's tanking isn't too awful at the moment, but if you feel NIN enmity generation should be quicker/more consistent, I would not necessarily object to that in itself provided that enmity comes from things that don't involve doing more damage. Increased enmity on NIN debuffs might be a potential solution.

Again, my primary concern is that there is nothing wrong with a high-survivability job doing "10-30%" less potential damage than a job with low survivability because the high-survivability job by definition risks less by maximizing that potential. Having SAMs and DRKs do more damage than NINs and MNKs means there is a reason to play SAMs and DRKs at all.




*in his defense, a Russian dude probably has a hard time finding people to help him get things done. Christ, does the client even support Cyrillic?


EDIT: Actually, this jumped out at me in your response that I "didn't seem to get":

Obviously, it's because on higher tier content, you can't do enough damage to cap enmity, unless you use innin, which makes the mobs face you, which makes innin not work anymore and makes the mob face away from you again.

I guess what I don't get is that if using Innin makes you cap your enmity against high-tier content, why, if you're trying to cap your enmity as a back-up tank to a PLD, wouldn't you just use Innin until Ochain McAlmace bites it

i mean yeah it's supposed to be the dd stance but when was the last time anything in this game made sense


oh also if people are really having a hard time capping enmity, then you should bank your WAR, make a Twashtar, and TA Rudra's on to PLDs like a straight baller

[Ravenmore]

PLD didn't get atonement till the end of ToAU, so rite there it shows how little you really know about the game or how its changed. Before then NIN/drk held more hate only way for them to pull ahead was go /rdm and do the same but give up shadows.

[wish12oz]

PLD didn't get atonement till the end of ToAU, so rite there it shows how little you really know about the game or how its changed. Before then NIN/drk held more hate only way for them to pull ahead was go /rdm and do the same but give up shadows.

I'm not sure how to respond to this, but I will do my best.

2 handed update/atonement both came at the end of of TOA, towards the end of 2007, which was SHOCK right when people stopped using nin/drk and started using pld/nin.

Wings release date: November 20, 2007 thus marking the end of TOA.
Two handed update: (08/14/2007)
Google is your friend.

Anyway, I fail to see how any of this means I dunno whats been happening. NIN/DRK was like late late 2005 at the earliest, til 2007, so MAYBE 2 years.
PLD/NIN (and rdm/nin) was from 2007, til the second abyssea expansion, which was like 6? months ago. So it's easily double or triple the time frame of being good, as the time frame for nin/drk. Who would of thought you meant before the updates to PLD JAs and the addition of atonement, I was thinking we were talking about how its been for the last FIVE YEARS and we were not talking about before the updates that made it good, since it would be silly to talk about PLD before those updates.
Want the specific answer?
PLD/WAR til sometime mid 2005, then NIN/WAR, after that switching to NIN/DRK around beginning of 2006 maybe, then PLD/NIN from mid-end of 2007 til 6 months ago, even though people were using PLD/NIN since the PLD JA update, it didn't completely take over til atonement, after abyssea expansion 2 we switched back to NIN/WAR and MNK since everything was suddenly easy.

What were we argueing again? Was it my knowledge I acquired actually doing HNMs and endgame FFXI content since 2004? oh, thats right, we were talking about why ninja is a terrible job that needs improvements. Try to stay on topic if you can.