On Red Mage melee...

[Seriha]

I realize there is a lot of call for more "Front Line Utility" but in truth there is very little that can be offered that isn't already there, either offered by Red Mage itself through various subjob settings, or flatly via other jobs. Instead of trying to take Red Mage into another direction, I believe we should hone what we already have in place.

As one of my irks when it comes to RDM, throwing your hands up in submission because you can't think of any ideas is not a stance SE should agree with, nor should we support. Now, have other jobs "stolen" things that would've been nice in RDM's hands? Sure. Does that mean the idea well has gone dry? Of course not. Moreover, I'll pass on just yet more tier ups. Quick magic is also a no-no since it could mean nukes going off in your FC gear and so on, basically sacrificing potency when we're desperate for it just to compete with specialists.

[Hyrist]

As one of my irks when it comes to RDM, throwing your hands up in submission because you can't think of any ideas is not a stance SE should agree with, nor should we support. Now, have other jobs "stolen" things that would've been nice in RDM's hands? Sure. Does that mean the idea well has gone dry? Of course not. Moreover, I'll pass on just yet more tier ups. Quick magic is also a no-no since it could mean nukes going off in your FC gear and so on, basically sacrificing potency when we're desperate for it just to compete with specialists.

A few falacies in there Seriha

On 'new ideas':

It's not throwing your hands up for the sake of lack of ideas. It's a matter of shifting the entire direction of a job based off of one crux utility. You're looking for a golden update which I say is just plain naive. Work with the system we have and modify it so it performs better, instead of looking for the 'shiney utility' that's going to change everyone minds about RDM front lining.

As far as getting more Tier ups, that is inevitable. Having what we're more or less designed to get function in a way that better suits us in the manners we would desire would be both more realistic, and easier to apply than flat out inventing a new mechanic. Besides, I've already listed a couple 'borrows' already. They just lean more towards the Hybrid approach, utalizing our spells to assist our melee, and proving more ability to streamline our casting which has always been our trend as a job. I'd rather see them preform that aspect correctly and have it work, then scrap it for a new idea that's even more likely to fail.

Quick Cast and Nukes:

It's seriously not hard to place your spell activation at the end of a gearswap macro instead of at the beginning. So your argument against quick cast is flat out null. Though, having control over when your quick cast operates was something I left open as an option for a reason. Either one would function well, an the trait would require only a minor shift in macro usage.

Not to mention, good luck finding anybody who's actually going to co-operate with some random front line geared Red Mage off of the street, in any sense of the word . . .

I'm surprised this statement even comes up, given the current state of the game. Small group activities dominate with only a few 'random pickups' really applying. At this point in the game, you're mostly playing with your friends or long time shell-mates. It's not nearly as difficult to get a bit of co-operation in small time content.

Trying to use the mechanic in huge Abyssea parties, however, just isn't going to work so well.

In the sense of gear, yes, as that's the limitation of a game that so heavily demands min-maxing.

In the sense of practice, if you ever try to do nothing but swing your sword with maybe the occasional cure or self-buff, you're doing it horribly wrong. (Unfortunately you can't say the same thing for doing nothing but spellcasting, but then, that's why this topic exists, no?)

Speaking truthfully, the two roles between front and back line Red Mage are different, in practice. Instead of becoming the primary responsibility for said roles, you are instead filling the gaps, or lightening the burden of your healer and support, as well as teaming up to assist your damage dealers and CC usage. Its a variable job that functions more on improvisation than a set duty, and that's the benefit and curse of it.

The Red Mage changes with the moment's needs, instead of trying to be a consistent. Again, the situation is archaic, but effective in smaller groups. In larger style events we have other methods of levying our trades. But all of this can be streamlined as a whole which, when paired with an increase of melee gear and a touch more healing utility, should be adequate to bringing Red Mage's various roles up to par, not just any single one because of personal preference.

I love Melee, I will always gear and work towards being as affective as I can be in it. But the sting Red Mage feels in terms of effectiveness isn't JUST melee anymore, it's across the board. We have an opportunity to bring Red Mage up to the hybrid it was meant to be utilized as. However, I don't beleive over-focusing on increasing just our melee aspects by creating a specific front line utility for Red Mage is an appropriate answer, as it ignores those who prefer a back line style.

We HAVE front line utilities, be it our old archaic methods (Skillchain opening + Burst), the newer ones that are less widely spread (WS procs, Elemental WS lights), or borrowed through use of subjob (/Dnc step/spell stacking, /War WS procing, /Blu or /Nin soloing or off tanking.) We can add to these if we want, but we're not going to have any better success with them as we did the current ones unless our core functions are further streamlined and better scaled. This starts at our casting and has to bleed into a better gear selection.

However I am of a belief that the streamlining itself will better enable front line usage, in which case the utility we're clamoring for would just be a placebo effect to attract the attention of the common mentality.

This desire for the "Thing that Only a Red Mage can do." Seems to be more focused on having the spotlight effect than a real means of addressing the rudimentary 'hybrid issue' that's been the ongoing argument about Red Mages in front line for years and years.