On Red Mage melee...

[Zirael]

Funny, that, because I don't see Dancer or Blue Mage with their weapons either...

Dancer has some curved dagger on front side (very clearly visible) and Twashtar partially hidden on the back side. Blue Mage has some black pointy thingy around where a Mithra's tail would be. Unless I'm mistaken and that's not a thin sword.

[Hyrist]

No, that would be the mithra's tail



It's called animation effects, it's nothing new. You can't see weapons during them normally.

Dancer's weapons can be seen because they're sheathed, which would indicate the Red Mage has a weapon drawn.

Note the staves on WHM, BLM, and SCH.

[saevel]

Wow had to skip forward, couldn't stomach anymore of the BG trolls. Seriously, they had some dude dual boxing a RDM vs himself as a naked Mnk, the entire BG parse was rigged from the beginning.

I happened to ~be~ one of the people doing those parses, and that "80%" number isn't full time DDing, it's DDing + Dia III spam + haste 1 person (other then yourself) + refresh 1 healer + cure IV bombing whenever possible. If I was able to full time focus then I could reach 90% or in some cases beat then. I attribute this more to the fact that I'm a hyperactive and borderline AHDH when doing combat in FFXI. Still if I can get 80% of BB / Full Usukukane monks, monks that I knew really well and were in the top 5% of the gaming populating, then it's definitely possible for other RDM's to perform as an adequate DD that has utility.

As for the entire "why take 80% when you can have 100%", it's a trap. The argument actually has no meaning because it preemptively subtracts from the RDM and limits them to "80%" while ignoring what they gain. In effect it's saying a RDM without MP, without Dia, without Cure IV, sleeps, are all only "80%" and that the other nameless DD is given all it's options / ability's at 100%. RDM's sacrifice damage potential for utility. Back in the day's of "6-man" groups I would do,

DD (/WAR or /SAM)
DD (/WAR or /SAM)
DD (/WAR or /SAM)
RDM/NIN (me)
BRD/NIN (puller / buffer)
WHM (healer)

RDM doesn't replacing a DD, and thus the entire nonsense (80% vs 100%) bull sh!t. It was replacing the BRD/WHM otherwise known as the "lazy BRD". Dia III would provide similar to if not more then the attack bonus of the BRD songs, Refresh would supplant their refresh songs, Cure IV would be better then any curing they put out, and melee damage would be the icing on the cake. If mobs needed crowd control then the RDM could Sleep I / II / Bind / Gravity the mobs. The only two jobs that could possibly give a better deal is a DNC or COR, and then it's boiling down to how good each build was and how good the player was. The entire point was that each member had assigned roles and responsibility's.

Of course that's all level 75, nowadays there is absolutely no reason to argue this anymore. SE designed the game post 75 to not restrict people to only a few "best" jobs. Everyone can contribute something and there are multiple ways to accomplish every goal. It's us the player base who is somehow punishing each other and messing things up. There are times when I think this game is too complex for it's player-base, it seems more and more people want just three to four actual "jobs" instead of a diverse selection.

[cidbahamut]

edit: nvm, taking my foot out of my mouth.

[Supersun]

Well...the abyssea proc system didn't help with that.

I mean the whole issue is a hindsight is 20/20 type thing, but certainly something to improve on in the future (which they seem to be working on).

-----

Also I could only laugh when I reread that "a rdm could only do 20% of a Sam's DD" was suggested. I mean really? A samurai can do 5x the damage of a Red Mage? Seriously? Unless a player has some SERIOUS accuracy issues or is wearing (and receiving) no haste to a full 80% haste DD not even a melee smn should be getting killed by 5x. You can only go so far until pDif and fStr cap and there isn't an unlimited amount of Store TP in the world.

If ANY job is getting killed by 5x then that job is gimp >.>

[wish12oz]

If I was able to full time focus then I could reach 90% or in some cases beat then.
Still if I can get 80% of BB / Full Usukukane monks, monks that I knew really well and were in the top 5% of the gaming population

I'm calling BS on both of these statements, RDM could not put out that much damage, especially not with the gear you were reported to have. They were gimp, or doing something wrong, and were definitely not in the top 5%. Which is why I proposed to someone advocating it to come parse me and I will show them they are wrong.
Which BTW, When do you plan on logging in Hyrist?

[Duelle]

Past experience, however, is kind of irrelevant in this angle of game.

Seeing that the "problem" is not exclusive to this game, I beg to differ.

I'll be as clear as possible of where I believe RDM's Melee allowance should be. The discretion of whether or not a Red Mage should be allowed to melee should be, more or less, in direct correlation with their Blue Mage Cousins. Meaning, if the Blue Mage hesitates to take out his swords to TP with, and sticks to his spells, Red Mage shouldn't be thinking about it.

I agree here. So long as the damage between both is comparable and surpass the tertiary benefits (buffs and enfeebling). Right now Blue Mage has high-damaging spells and potent enfeebles to fall back on when they can't swing, and all RDM has left is pretty much cures and buffs under the same conditions.

Duelle believes this should come primarily through damage. I believe Utility is the more important aspect, and our Damage aspects are in need of only minor improvements comparatively.

I'm fine with wanting utility, but I simply feel that it alone will not make up for lacking damage nor will it justify front-lining. Ideally, utility and damage should both be buffed to some regard, even mixing said utility with front-lining to make the transition smoother.

[Supersun]

especially not with the gear you were reported to have.

We had this cool weapon called the joyeuse that had a relic level DPS and was stupidly broken at lvl 75 especially against little pink bird.

Combine it with the dagger that the majority of thieves were using and you had the main reason Rdm could melee at 75.

Gear or not a weapon that increases your WS frequency by ~45% is no joke especially when it's piercing.

[Aurara]

We had this cool weapon called the joyeuse that had a relic level DPS and was stupidly broken at lvl 75 especially against little pink bird.

Combine it with the dagger that the majority of thieves were using and you had the main reason Rdm could melee at 75.

Gear or not a weapon that increases your WS frequency by ~45% is no joke especially when it's piercing.

Except rdm still couldn't put out the kinds of #'s you are saying, and i have done rdm/nin blau/joytoy on colibri, it doesnt work, lol.

[Aurara]

Wow had to skip forward, couldn't stomach anymore of the BG trolls. Seriously, they had some dude dual boxing a RDM vs himself as a naked Mnk, the entire BG parse was rigged from the beginning.

Lol, what? why do you think it was dualboxed because the rdm got crushed? Seriously, grasping for straws!

I happened to ~be~ one of the people doing those parses, and that "80%" number isn't full time DDing, it's DDing + Dia III spam + haste 1 person (other then yourself) + refresh 1 healer + cure IV bombing whenever possible. If I was able to full time focus then I could reach 90% or in some cases beat then. I attribute this more to the fact that I'm a hyperactive and borderline AHDH when doing combat in FFXI. Still if I can get 80% of BB / Full Usukukane monks, monks that I knew really well and were in the top 5% of the gaming populating, then it's definitely possible for other RDM's to perform as an adequate DD that has utility.

No, you're lying because an usu/BB MNK would crush you in DPS alone without factoring in WS dmg.

RDM doesn't replacing a DD, and thus the entire nonsense (80% vs 100%) bull sh!t. It was replacing the BRD/WHM otherwise known as the "lazy BRD". Dia III would provide similar to if not more then the attack bonus of the BRD songs, Refresh would supplant their refresh songs, Cure IV would be better then any curing they put out, and melee damage would be the icing on the cake. If mobs needed crowd control then the RDM could Sleep I / II / Bind / Gravity the mobs. The only two jobs that could possibly give a better deal is a DNC or COR, and then it's boiling down to how good each build was and how good the player was. The entire point was that each member had assigned roles and responsibility's.

So much is wrong with all of this. Bards dont sing minuets, they sing marchx2, you're automatically gimp if you use minuets. Refresh? how lol? its the exact same as ballad 1+2...Yes, sleep/bind the birds that reflect magic!