On Red Mage melee...

[Daniel_Hatcher]

For those that think RDM shouldn't Melee anyway, look at all the topics SE release on the main page, including the video of the new Sword.

I'll give a clue, they almost all feature a RDM melee'ing. So the question lies, even SE think RDM should Melee, so why shouldn't they make it acceptable for RDM to do so with gear, buffs or even enhancing magic (our supposed second speciality outside of enfeebling.)

[ManaKing]

I'm personally against Quick magic being part of RDM. It doesn't seem to serve any purpose except for me to use my finite MP pool, unwisely. Quick magic is Rapidshot for mages, but mages and ranged DPS aren't the same. Rapidshot is a great idea for ranged attack because you shouldn't run out of ammo as a RNG or a COR and all it does is increase your DPS.

I'm also against Cure V. We aren't healing specialists, we don't need to be stepping on people's toes. What we need is our own toes to stand on.

We could really use some RDM only utility, because everything that is good about RDM has been taken by other mages at this point and all we are left with is being told NO.

What we lack is gear consideration, job abilities, and spells that are functional and up to date in the current climate. That way we could be our own job.

Speaking truthfully, the two roles between front and back line Red Mage are different, in practice. Instead of becoming the primary responsibility for said roles, you are instead filling the gaps, or lightening the burden of your healer and support, as well as teaming up to assist your damage dealers and CC usage. Its a variable job that functions more on improvisation than a set duty, and that's the benefit and curse of it.

I would love to believe you, and mind you i feel that's how it should be as well, but that is not how it is. People don't want you for anything but Haste and Phallanx, maybe refresh, but probably not. If you have difficulty seeing RDM in the worst possible light, than i don't think you really have played RDM for very long. I'm not trying to be a jerk, but that is what I have to be to defend my favorite Job. We can share this job, but I'm not letting it slip into further mediocrity. Unless we get the 'golden update' that we are looking for, we are going to be playing the most mediocre class in the game.

Hyrist, you can say whatever you want on these forums, as can everyone. I'm just going to point out that a wall of text is a poor way to communicate. A lot of what you have posted has been gone over before which is why Seriha and Duelle take up such hard counter-stances. If you aren't going to read the 35+ pages of post on this topic thus far, you have to realize you don't care about anyone opinion but your own.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

'm also against Cure V. We aren't healing specialists, we don't need to be stepping on people's toes. What we need is our own toes to stand on.

It isn't about being healing specialists, we should never have the same highest tier spell as any other job subbing /whm and soon /rdm. We got Tier IV nukes as DRK was getting Tier III, we got Refresh II as Refresh one was made available subjob level, so it's a joke not to have a higher tier Cure.

We could really use some RDM only utility, because everything that is good about RDM has been taken by other mages at this point and all we are left with is being told NO.

What we lack is gear consideration, job abilities, and spells that are functional and up to date in the current climate. That way we could be our own job.

I don't disagree with this.

[ManaKing]

It isn't about being healing specialists, we should never have the same highest tier spell as any other job subbing /whm and soon /rdm. We got Tier IV nukes as DRK was getting Tier III, we got Refresh II as Refresh one was made available subjob level, so it's a joke not to have a higher tier Cure.

So long as Red Knight is available, i don't really care if Pink mage is as well.

But they need to come out at the same time. We don't need anymore precedent tell us how to play our job.

[Duelle]

So long as Red Knight is available, i don't really care if Pink mage is as well.

But they need to come out at the same time. We don't need anymore precedent tell us how to play our job.

Erm...huh? Did I miss something here? 0.o

[Hyrist]

Forgive me if I cluster some of these statements together as you guys seem to be parroting each other.

Cure V...

Is likely inevitable. You can call it lazy, uninspired, dangerous, or every other insult you wish, but the only argument against this spell is the fear of Red Mage being pigeon-holed into the healer role. A fear I share. However, if streamlines and updates to Red Mage are done properly, the fact that we have Cure V won't matter.

Those who have played Red Mages on the front lines for years, have done so spiting the so called 'common wisdom' of players. It was simply the only way to prove that it was viable. This truth will be neigh impossible to change without breaking the job entirely, or both reasserting and streamlining our initial contributions to a party, ON TOP of some sort of additional utility (or further emphasis on what we have).

Generalist vs Specalist

There is two facts that need to be acknowledged about Red Mage.

1. It is a Generalist, period. There is no changing this without cutting out half of it's spell library and abilities. This is both the blessing and the curse of the job. However...

2. It HAS a Specialist Function 2 actually.: Enfeebling and Enhancing. But they both have problems right now.

Enfeebling:
In the rapid increase in melee performance that has done nothing but climb over the years, enfeebling has become less and less of a prominent role. This is a flaw in the game's design, not with the design of Red Mage as a class. If we are going to be important, for a large group role, there needs to be a reason why enfeebles are useful.

This means:

- Monsters need to endure long enough for applications of enfeebles to be useful
and/or
- We need to have the ability to apply multiple debuffs upon a monster instantaneously or through a very short time period.

Additionally
- Boss Monsters need to be more vulnerable to enfeebles in general.


Right now as it stands, procs have supplanted our reason for being in the enfeebling department.


Enhancing:

Enhancing, should be our secondary role, but has become our primary due to how efficiently monsters are slain. However, as it stands, what we offer as enhancers is outdone by every other existing support class out there. As much as Seriha comments about Red Mages not having infinite MP pools outside of Abyssea, this is in complete ignorance of the fact that evey other MP pool of every other mage class nearly doubled when Convert became available via subjob. Additionally, Refresh is such a readily available commodity with the advent of Refresh being subable , and Red Mage gaining Refresh II, that a Red Mage's own 'support' role has become unneeded.

Before we even touch the Melee aspect, this issue needs to be regarded. NOT by simply adjusting Red Mage, though some issues can be addressed this way (debuff-ga spells would solve debuffing multiple cannon-fodder issue. This should not be tied to a particular subjob either). The large group gameplay mechanic needs to change.

Front Line Utility

This needs it's own topic, as 'Melee' is a hornet's nest of issues. I may start a new topic myself to focus this topic and allow us to break it down further. But I'll touch the basics here.

Whatever 'Utility' we have in front line, it will break down into these basics.

Abilities that inflict new/increase existing enfeebeling effects on the monster.
Abilities that create new or increase existing enhancing effects on the party.
Abilities that inflict greater damage.
Abilities that recover the party.

That's the fundamental roots for every ability in this game, and the majority of them are covered. Keep in mind, that we're also balancing against our already superb soloing ability.

Front Line and Back Line Roles

As much as people believe the common wisdom that Red Mage should cycle in the front line. It's simply not how it operates in practice. Ask members that have doing it for getting close to a decade now such as myself, Zafire, Starfox, and a plethora of others who have been doggedly sticking to this sort of function on Red Mage since our first days in Vana'Diel. As Seriha has been so keen to point out, our own MP pools are not limited, and casting time HARMS our general output. But if there is to be any encouragement made to Red Mage front lines, it MUST be done on the premise that doing so limits our other functions of support. Or else any change is going to fall flat under the argument "You' still need to refresh!"

There are two methods that I can see working to enforce this:

1. A short duration, stacking enfeeble related directly to our melee. (Read: A stacking en-debuff.)
2. A stance that further hampers our repeat casting as Composure did in extending our recast timers.

Personally I would prefer the first. However, to accomplish that, what buffs we do spread around, like haste and Refresh II, would have to be extended in duration, THUS I mentioned first post I ever made on these boards, that Composure needs to function on party targets natively, even if it is just a reduced effectiveness. That way at least we're able to provide some support to parties while adding this utility. Put plainly, I don't' believe our front line utility should supplant the job as a whole.

Quick-Cast

Some form of Double Cast should have been a root part of Red Mage well before this point, and I'm not just talking our 2 hour ability. Right now, we suffer from a casting load problem, be it front line or back. Fast Cast simply does not meet the demands when cycling, and while a Composure increase could regard this partially, a controlled quick cast would increase our overall functionality considerably in every department. In the situation in which you would have say, 2 other people to refresh besides yourself, this ability would the 'cycle' concept neatly.

As far as increasing your MP drain with it, that would be a balance factor to the ability, and would keep Nuke-Spamming with it in check. But it still would assist our utility in say, taking advantage of an accidental Skillchain to burst on. (Or double bursting on a planned one.)

In the end, it's an accessory. One that would further assist in the streamlining of the job's current functions. As we're seeing a passive form being put to use in game mechanics already, it shouldn't be a stretch for SE to finally give Red Mage this ability (preferably as a JA).

Anyways, there's quite a bit of work that would need to be done to Red Mage to make it viable. My point is you can't simply tack on a new mechanic to an existing base without fixing the broken base, and a lot of it has to do with the surrounding gameplay, not just Red Mage itself.


As a personal note to ManaKing.

As Seriha can attest to this, I've been playing Red Mage a very, very long time. It is my only passion in FFXI and truly the only job I'll ever invest in. (I'll put it this way. FFXIV won't hold a candle with me until they implement the job in there, I'm that attached/obsessed.)

As far as the long posts, you're going to have to get used to them. A 35 page argument on Red Mage front line is nothing compared to the years of debate and analysis that has been done on this subject. The condition of the job as it is now is just re-stirring a very old pot.

That said, breaking apart the subject matter into separate threads would be helpful keeping my post size smaller.

[ManaKing]

As a personal note to ManaKing.

As Seriha can attest to this, I've been playing Red Mage a very, very long time. It is my only passion in FFXI and truly the only job I'll ever invest in. (I'll put it this way. FFXIV won't hold a candle with me until they implement the job in there, I'm that attached/obsessed.)

As far as the long posts, you're going to have to get used to them. A 35 page argument on Red Mage front line is nothing compared to the years of debate and analysis that has been done on this subject. The condition of the job as it is now is just re-stirring a very old pot.

That said, breaking apart the subject matter into separate threads would be helpful keeping my post size smaller.

Welcome aboard and thank you. I don't expect you to post smaller responses because I asked you, I'm just saying it is easier to respond to specific ideas when they are bite sized instead of an entire page.

[Duelle]

There is two facts that need to be acknowledged about Red Mage.

1. It is a Generalist, period. There is no changing this without cutting out half of it's spell library and abilities.

False. Adjustments in potency, resources consumed and such can be the pivot points of the class depending on what you want to do. The goal there is to keep your utility intact while still being proficient at the role you, the player, has chosen. Cures being more expensive or more inconvenient to cast outside of mechanics that allow you to do so, nukes costing more and/or having shorter cast ranges and so on.

2. It HAS a Specialist Function 2 actually.: Enfeebling and Enhancing. But they both have problems right now.

Enfeebling:
In the rapid increase in melee performance that has done nothing but climb over the years, enfeebling has become less and less of a prominent role. This is a flaw in the game's design, not with the design of Red Mage as a class. If we are going to be important, for a large group role, there needs to be a reason why enfeebles are useful.

It's not necessary to make enfeebles super important. A part of what we bring to the table, sure. The whole bag, no.

Additionally
- Boss Monsters need to be more vulnerable to enfeebles in general.

Yes and no. More enfeebles working on a boss is fine, provided enfeebling as a whole gets a facelift to make it part of the front or back line roles without being an entire role in and of itself.

Enhancing:

Enhancing, should be our secondary role, but has become our primary due to how efficiently monsters are slain. However, as it stands, what we offer as enhancers is outdone by every other existing support class out there. As much as Seriha comments about Red Mages not having infinite MP pools outside of Abyssea, this is in complete ignorance of the fact that evey other MP pool of every other mage class nearly doubled when Convert became available via subjob. Additionally, Refresh is such a readily available commodity with the advent of Refresh being subable , and Red Mage gaining Refresh II, that a Red Mage's own 'support' role has become unneeded.

Before we even touch the Melee aspect, this issue needs to be regarded. NOT by simply adjusting Red Mage, though some issues can be addressed this way (debuff-ga spells would solve debuffing multiple cannon-fodder issue. This should not be tied to a particular subjob either). The large group gameplay mechanic needs to change.

The support role again should be a minor facet of Red Mage, not the whole by which our party value is measured. As I've constantly said, I wouldn't mind if Refresh was an effect that affected the whole group that procced after using my suggested JA, Spellblade. That makes refresh a tertiary, thus minor, aspect of the class. It also kills the stupid busy work approach SE took when they gave RDM refresh and haste.

As much as people believe the common wisdom that Red Mage should cycle in the front line. It's simply not how it operates in practice. Ask members that have doing it for getting close to a decade now such as myself, Zafire, Starfox, and a plethora of others who have been doggedly sticking to this sort of function on Red Mage since our first days in Vana'Diel. As Seriha has been so keen to point out, our own MP pools are not limited, and casting time HARMS our general output. But if there is to be any encouragement made to Red Mage front lines, it MUST be done on the premise that doing so limits our other functions of support. Or else any change is going to fall flat under the argument "You' still need to refresh!"

This I can agree with. This is why I've sided with the stances approach over all else. And why I'm so in support of mechanics that focus on front-lining while slightly (relative term, but I for one would not miss buff cycling and always being on cure duty) hindering support.

[Seriha]

I'm sure WARs would love it if they could get Berserk II, because it's not fair everyone 30+ can sub them and it be just as effective. Hint: There's more to the healing game than simply a cure tier. So, let all these /WHMs stealing our jerbs march in without their hMP gear, enfeebles, fast cast, and an actual MP pool and can actually do things without atma holding them up.

As for Hyrist, if I'm not mistaken, a fair chunk of his RDM experience comes through duoing with his DNC friend/girlfriend/wife or whatever. I wouldn't call a consistent duo or mini-static your typical RDM environment, nor does it readily subject you to the demands and horrors of the PUG experience. I don't miss breaking my back at 75 for my LS pretending to be a WHM in RDM's clothing, and I am opposed to those days returning. Regardless of then and now, the freedom to play how we wish doesn't exist in a truly compromising manner. There's a preferred side with all its "rules" and expectations. Meanwhile, a third of the job collects dust, okayed only when we're solo (and thus not "wasting" the time of our rule-setters) or doing things that don't matter. To be blunt, anything we do in game should matter, as it otherwise implies a lack of purpose.

[Hyrist]

You are Mistaken.

Ex Fiancee was a WHM, I barely played with her due to the job dynamics that kept WHM and RDM seperate from each other.

My current friend I play with is a Dancer, who I do Duo with currently.

Neither of these make the majority of my playtime.

I'd like it if you'd quit dismissing me based off of false presumptions. Even while I was not playing, I was following the RDM dynamic very closely. It's nothing less than an obsession.