A Ninja without Throwing...

[Glamdring]

I'm actually on board with Akujima on this issue. I simply never understand why you would ignore a tool available to you, regardless of the job. I'll be clear, my ninja is 49 and it will remain there until my last job leveled, something about loathing the job almost as much as I loathe genocidal maniacs, but I digress. The point is, my throwing is well beyond the 49 ninja cap, my ninjitsu is at the 49 ninja cap, I think my parry is just above the 49 ninja cap, katana is at the 49 cap, evasion was already capped. I actively used throwing, the wheel, etc. to keep those skills up. Why? Were they particularily useful? No. Was it required? Only by me. Do they come in handy on occasion? Hell yes. Same is true on all of my other jobs.

See, all skill is absolutely useless... until you need it, and then it's too late to get it. So it is advisable to use what you have every chance you get to keep it up, so that it is already there when you really need it. That's why so many people complain about parry, guard and shield (if you aren't a paladin), because even if you try to use them, they aren't there. How many times have you heard your Blm complain that their enfeebling or whatever is gimpped when they can't land a specific debuff? Like I said, you need it when you need it. You especially need it in this day and age of trying to !! proc off a sub-job skill when low-manning ___.

To be sure, not all skills are gonna be all that useful, ex. rdm has a ranged attack skill, but the only time a rdm would realisticly use it is to pull in an area where magic would get aggroed, and you don't need to hit to claim with ranged, the other possibility being if they chance upon Ixion. Some abilities are only gotten through merits, and you may not have enough to get everything, again rdm spells come to mind. For the most part however there is a reason to get and use skills.

Ranged attack, since that's what we are discussing here... OK, I'll admit, none of my ranged attack is at capped (I'll be leveling ranger soon, so I expect that to change), and my throwing is higher than my marksmanship. My 90 thief can use all 3 ranged options, but only throwing sees much use. Does it do alot? no. It hits quite a bit tho', gives me a good chunk of TP when it does, and since I love my jinx discus it has a handy added effect, cursing my enemy-handy in this day and age of "to hell with hate control" since it makes it take longer to chase down the hate-happy mages when they pull the mob outta the DD/tank pit. To be sure, I could use X-bow status bolts to effect as well, but I'm gonna skill throwing on my thief and dancer, I'll get marksmanship doing my ranger since I'm more likely to hit and ammo is not free.

Now, Sange... well here's where you are gonna run into a debate. At least prior to Aby a ninja's best friend was his shadows, look up sange and see what it does to your shadows. Maybe we don't care anymore, but it's awfully hard to shake an 8-year reflexive mindset; sue me, but I want my shadows. Second, I'm pretty sure Sange only works with consumed throwing weaps, and at upper levels those cost a fortune... when you can find any. Lastly, sange is a trade off with other things you need to spend merits to get, and you need to decide what kind of ninja you are as to where you spend those, so it's your choice.

That being said, Sange is certainly NOT useless. Shuriken can do alot of damage, pick a fight with a yag ninja, you aren't getting hit for 0 there. Your returnable weaps generally don't do as much damage as shuriken, and I don't believe they work with Sange. They still do something. If you have ready access to a steady supply of shuriken I might seriously consider it. But even without Sange I'd be tossing those things when I had the chance in my activity cycle, they can do alot of damage... in skilled hands.

Am I the only one who's ever watched themself on screen start a ranged attack, whack the mob with a melee attack, then finish using the ranged attack? (I've done the same thing casting, too). Seems using ranged damage is not automatically forfeiting doing melee damage.

[wish12oz]

I'm actually on board with Akujima on this issue. I simply never understand why you would ignore a tool available to you, regardless of the job.

You ignore it because it's useless.
Do RDMs with Slow2 cast slow1? No, unless you're really not intelligent. Throwing is in the same boat.

I'll be clear, my ninja is 49. I actively used throwing, the wheel, etc. to keep those skills up. Why? Were they particularily useful? No. Was it required? Only by me. Do they come in handy on occasion? Hell yes. Same is true on all of my other jobs.

Actually, at this level, and previous levels, and for a few more upcoming levels, throwing is good, in fact it's so good, it's better then anything else you could possibly do. It doesn't become bad until you and other melees, gain access to more haste, dual wield, and better damage katanas.

I talked for 3 paragraphs about how I keep my skills capped

Good for you, that has nothing to do with why throwing is useless.

Now, Sange... well here's where you are gonna run into a debate. At least prior to Aby a ninja's best friend was his shadows, look up sange and see what it does to your shadows. Maybe we don't care anymore, but it's awfully hard to shake an 8-year reflexive mindset; sue me, but I want my shadows. Second, I'm pretty sure Sange only works with consumed throwing weaps, and at upper levels those cost a fortune... when you can find any. Lastly, sange is a trade off with other things you need to spend merits to get, and you need to decide what kind of ninja you are as to where you spend those, so it's your choice.

That being said, Sange is certainly NOT useless. Shuriken can do alot of damage, pick a fight with a yag ninja, you aren't getting hit for 0 there. Your returnable weaps generally don't do as much damage as shuriken, and I don't believe they work with Sange. They still do something.

We went over this before, apparently you missed it. Using sange takes your shadows, and takes away time from doing melee damage, by using the job ability, and recasting shadows. These actions make you miss between 3 and 8 attack rounds worth of TP and damage, and guess what! Sange doesn't do more damage or gain more tp then 3 attack rounds, and that's the low end of what you miss out on, thus making it useless.

This is why you should learn how stuff works before you try and talk about it, so you don't say incorrect information and get called on it. It's earlier in the thread if you want to go look for it "Mr I don't even have ninja at 75 and have no idea what I am talking about."

Am I the only one who's ever watched themself on screen start a ranged attack, whack the mob with a melee attack, then finish using the ranged attack? (I've done the same thing casting, too). Seems using ranged damage is not automatically forfeiting doing melee damage.

Game animations do not indicate how the game works. For instance right here, doing ranged attacks actually stops you from being able to do melee attacks, so does using JA's and WS's and casting anything. Learn game mechanics before you decide what is good or bad and try to pass stuff off as useful.

And the last thing we need on these forums is more bad, incorrect information about game mechanics,
YOU CAN NOT MAKE NEW MELEE ATTACKS WHILE THROWING.
What you saw was animations from attacks that already occurred.

[Bulrogg]

While throwing isn't for the elitist mainstream players, I know that others including myself could find use for throwing attacks that also offer enfeeblement that we do not have access to in the role of NIN. It could a new item similar to Angon and have the chance to inflict the target with Amnesia, Demi, Gravity and Terror depending on resist.

I'm also hoping for an adjustment/update to Sange, it really needs to allow for Crits to be included in the damage calculation.

I'd also like to see a Shurikenjutsu that cast an actual barrage of shuriken at the mob.

[wish12oz]

While throwing isn't for the elitist mainstream players, I know that others including myself could find use for throwing attacks that also offer enfeeblement that we do not have access to in the role of NIN. It could a new item similar to Angon and have the chance to inflict the target with Amnesia, Demi, Gravity and Terror depending on resist.

The problem here is that if the update to throwing is not useful, no one will use it except for the really bad players, or Naruto RPers. And if it's not useful to most of the people who play the job, it's a waste of SE's time and they should of been working on something else.

I'm also hoping for an adjustment/update to Sange, it really needs to allow for Crits to be included in the damage calculation.

Abilities that do damage need to do more damage then meleeing or they're not worth doing. Even if Sange was all crit hits, and you had shurikens that cost 1 gil and had 300 base damage, Sange wouldn't be worth using.

I'd also like to see a Shurikenjutsu that cast an actual barrage of shuriken at the mob.

Believe it!

[Nacht]

But I have to become the ultimate ninja

[Karbuncle]

If you play your job right, You're an elitist. Heard it here first. BELIEVE IT!

Why was this thread bumped ?

On topic, Read back to any of my posts that offer suggestions, They're better than all of yours! (NYEH NYEH!) and even they would be border-line breaking the game. While I would accept a change to throwing that some how made it viable without nerfing Dual Wield or haste, The problem is, that level of Throwing buff would require literally either a complete overhaul of throwing, or adding Shuriken with DMG somewhere around 999 and a Delay of 1 that give 50tp a throw.

[Nacht]

Why was this thread bumped ?

I don't think the thread ever died. There's always been at least one or so post a day since the thread was started.

[Akujima]

If you play your job right, You're an elitist. Heard it here first. BELIEVE IT!

No. But if you persistently go out of your way to bash people with childish Naruto insults, because their feelings about how a job should be developed in a role-playing game interferes with your bandwagon job list, then yes, it is a symptom of elitism.

Wish12oz, GG and other like minded people never gave a crap about NIN before it got a major boost in DMG capabilities. The simple fact is that elitists jump ship to the next bandwagon job the moment it becomes available. The only reason they're in here, is because they don't want NIN to be changed, effectively forcing them to abandon ship and cling to another job that is more "uber".

Wanna know why my threads are gigantic? Because the topics strike the very core of the reader, forcing them to either give up or put up a struggle, to save their most cherished beliefs.

[Karbuncle]

Both sides hold their beliefs dear, as you do. Is it so wrong to want a job not to be nerfed so you can continue to enjoy it?

Criticizing one side of the argument because their beliefs are different, accusing them of bandwagon'ing (I'm pretty sure 12oz has been a NIN for a long while) Is far worse than them sticking up for what they believe and their math.

And an "Elitist" doesn't job to one job to the other when it comes into light. "Elitists" I consider a compliment, because it perfectly describes someone who has geared and played their job to their best ability.

Why people think its an insult is beyond me.

[Greatguardian]

Because I totally haven't had NIN75 for yeeeeears. Anyone who plays their job the most effective way in a group setting where performance impacts other people must be a bandwagontard. That makes so much sense.

Your threads are gigantic because you are unbelievably dense and never actually read what anyone else writes, replying with buzzword banter, youtube links, and +1's to any posts longer than 10 words that agree with you, even if you didn't read or understand those either.

Stay consistent for once and stick to your crappy PvP thread.