Hvergelmir WTF SE

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

If you're dding like Dallas apparently does, then Nirvana does crap all over hvelg for damage since it includes avatars. Not that it matters since aside from trash mobs the Smn shouldn't be meleeing anyway. Inside you can keep mp up without having to use Myrkr, outside it's either 75 content/WoE or VW where you won't be meleeing.

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for summoner Nirvana is king. Hail to the king, praise be to Nirvana!

If you're using all magical atma you aren't meleeing in the first place and should be spamming Heavenly strike/Elemental affinity atma+avatar of your choice, and no you don't have to sacrifice all melee atma to keep MP up.

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Originally Posted by Tannlore

Yikes... You have been misinformed on this staff and how the WS works. 20/40/60% MP. 500/600mp at 60% mp? As a summoner if you are getting back 600 mp at 60% of your max mp pool call a GM, your character is damaged.

Let's begin here.. First off, if you are being hit over and over again with AoE you fail as a summoner. Get out of stupid and stop being in AoE that's what you have a pet for, put on your perp- stave if you don't have a regain atma on. I've said this in past posts, you did read these before you posted this.... this.. diatribe yes? I hope you did. I get back 1600-1800MP a WS with my staff, yes.. 1600-1800 a WS, not 500-600. I don't know where you get your numbers from.. but man... gear your WS please in fact I usualy HOLD my tp for ever because it's a waste to blow 300% tp/1600 mp on a WS (And yeah I'm spamming my BP: Rages AND wards over and over). Constant MP gain is great, but if your mp is full, what's it gaining you? Since I've gotten my staff I've siphoned .... wait I haven't had to siphon once.... at all... ever... since I got the staff. And you know what? I find it AMAZING! I find it liberating!

On holding my TP. If I'm in a battle where, for instance I need to output max damage fast in say abyssea and I know the fights won't be long and drawn out? I'll skip on using my emp staff, put on MM and use my magian magic atk stave instead. I've said it before, the staff isn't glued to my back. It comes off.

All I am detecting is someone who made a magian stave and is feeling hurt over having done that work. Don't be. I have them too and I use them when it isn't convenient to use my Emp staff. It isn't always convenient to use my emp staff. But you can not dismiss the power of the emp staff. It is limitless MP. You can use the WS from a distance.... MAX engagement distance, it never misses, garners no aggro (you can target some random mob you have not even engaged/aggroed, used the ws and put the weapon away... the mob won't even blink at you) and go your merry way.

All I ever hear from people when they see this staff is: LOL you made that staff then once they see me use it for 10 mins is: OMG I want to make that staff!

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First off i have zero problem with the staff, i dont care for people that think they can melee with it. for your opening statement, im referring to ws-ing at 100%, if you use a wing to get 300% tp, kudos you're using it right.

2nd what ARE you meleeing that is worth a damn that ISN'T AOEing, perfectly legit question.

For your 3rd statement: double kudos, this was directed at people that full time the staff because they believe the other ones are for noobs

4th statement: hardly, im a sch and dnc main, i have the woe version of this staff so i very well know the range of the ws and how useful it can be, im in no way upset about this weapon, im just borderlined baffled how people can use this staff as a justification to happily go kill themselves, that's a drk's job, leave that to them.

last statement: i dont dislike the staff (said this a couple times now) i just dont care for actually meleeing in it.

edit: Using VV in abyssea is ok too, since it also doesnt require you to melee, and your avatar benifiets from it.

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Originally Posted by Sira

First off i have zero problem with the staff, i dont care for people that think they can melee with it. for your opening statement, im referring to ws-ing at 100%, if you use a wing to get 300% tp, kudos you're using it right.

2nd what ARE you meleeing that is worth a damn that ISN'T AOEing, perfectly legit question.

For your 3rd statement: double kudos, this was directed at people that full time the staff because they believe the other ones are for noobs

4th statement: hardly, im a sch and dnc main, i have the woe version of this staff so i very well know the range of the ws and how useful it can be, im in no way upset about this weapon, im just borderlined baffled how people can use this staff as a justification to happily go kill themselves, that's a drk's job, leave that to them.

last statement: i dont dislike the staff (said this a couple times now) i just dont care for actually meleeing in it.

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1) A well geared summoner (full +2) with the correct accessories at 100%tp can easily offset the costs of perp+ blood pact costs. Having the WoE version of the staff you know this to be true and it still holds true even at 95. I tested this out on the test server and was quite delighted to see it was still good. the fact that the 95 version has even more mp made me very happy. I can easily break 2.1k MP outside of aby now. (But then again, unless you're in a pinch, you would never use this unless you were at 300% tp.)

2) What would you BE meleeing that DOES AoE? That is the question? I mean seriously, you aren't a paladin... and this isn't 2003. If it AoEs, don't walk up to it. What do I melee that doesn't AoE? Things I farm for gil, things in abyssea whose AoE are conical/frontal/rear, things whore AoE are so pathetically weak they don't break stoneskin. And if I DO have to farm something I need to melee that does AoE and for some god aweful reason I need to stand head to toe with and melee, It doesn't matter, my Myrky completely recoveres almost all my MP reservers. I can spam magic till the cows come home. You have the WoE version, you should know this.

3) Yes, full timers /bonk "no, bad.. bad"

4) This was more at the "So do us all a favor, act like the pet job that you are playing, and stand back out of the way" completely ignoring your staff skill is just plain dumb too. Be smart about how you engage mobs and you will be fine.

5) As for not meleeing in it you don't care much for it because you don't have the true staff. My LS mentioned to me when we completed it that I could have just made the WoE version and have been just as happy. This sentiment changed two seconds after the first 300% WS. I was in abyssea and had a Level 3 aftermath on with VV RR and Apoc. Garuda just Pred clawed a mob, and I trippeled attacked a mob for 715, 718, 712. That's 2145 damage in melee swings.

Edit: that damage was in perp gear too, no melee gear or anything to boost it. Imagine if I had that on? ugh.. I sound like Dallas....

fair enough for the most part, how would you far against zone bosses, or voidwatch? i mean atmas are nice but how often would you use the staff if you weren't in abyssea? also im pretty babied with being a dnc main where a dnc can damn near solo 90% of the abyssea content, even then for the most part you shouldnt be soloing and then im not entirely sure how i would feel if i was tanking and a smn came up next to me and started wacking the mob with his blue lightsaber thing. but from your statement you would only use it/melee on things that you would farm? kinda goes back to the mobs being worthwhile (fight wise, not drop wise) and other jobs would do a fair bit better on the melee front, BUT i wont go about "this job is better for this so use it" route.

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

If you're using all magical atma you aren't meleeing in the first place and should be spamming Heavenly strike/Elemental affinity atma+avatar of your choice, and no you don't have to sacrifice all melee atma to keep MP up.

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Sacrificing 1 atma for Minikin, using /RDM, perp gear, L75 BPs, Siphon... they all take away from damage. Hvergelmir returns so much MP, that none of these sacrifices are necessary.

If you are using a 90 DMG 402 delay staff, trying to beat a 98 DMG 390 delay staff, you can't afford to sacrifice anything. You will have to play the exact same way Hvergelmir does: full haste, full BPs. By my scorecard, that's +3 perp and PC every 45 seconds, which amounts to 840 mp every 3 minutes.

The only recourse is Spirit Taker, which WILL miss. Nirvana does not have the staying power of Hvergelmir. You will sacrifice a lot of damage to maintain Aftermath.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

Until it runs out of MP. Then it craps all over itself.

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No one is running out of MP anymore(in or outside Abyssea), with a good gearset it's possible to fight indefinitely as SMN nowadays, most the time I don't even use a refesh atma anymore because I have more than enough MP without them. If you NEED a hvergelmir to play without resting there's seriously something wrong with your gear set.

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Originally Posted by Sira

fair enough for the most part, how would you far against zone bosses, or voidwatch? i mean atmas are nice but how often would you use the staff if you weren't in abyssea? also im pretty babied with being a dnc main where a dnc can damn near solo 90% of the abyssea content, even then for the most part you shouldnt be soloing and then im not entirely sure how i would feel if i was tanking and a smn came up next to me and started wacking the mob with his blue lightsaber thing. but from your statement you would only use it/melee on things that you would farm? kinda goes back to the mobs being worthwhile (fight wise, not drop wise) and other jobs would do a fair bit better on the melee front, BUT i wont go about "this job is better for this so use it" route.

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Well I use it on events and such too, but it depends on the encounter. Every encounter has it's own strategy and has to be approached differently. If it's appropriate to swing the staff, then I'll swing it. If it isn't, then it stays on my back. Regain atmas are my best friend now in aby yeah. I'm never going to let my lust for swinging this thing overcome the success of my alliance. Alliance success trumps everything else. This points just to what I posted earlier: It isn't the staff that's the problem, It's the players with the staff. Sad, but true. It is an amazing weapon but people need to adapt to it.

As for the this job is better for this route, I'll address that just by saying this: Smn is my main job, it has been since 2003. It's pretty much a passion for me. I've done my best to find ways to make it work where I can, and when it just can't work I adjust and play another job when needed. I can solo/tank lots of stuff in abyssea T3vnms, major nms, etc on smn. So it isn't about which job makes this easier to do, it's about how can I do this on summoner. What I like about this staff is that i actually made that a lot easier believe it or not. It's a good weapon for summoner.

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Originally Posted by Tannlore

Well I use it on events and such too, but it depends on the encounter. Every encounter has it's own strategy and has to be approached differently. If it's appropriate to swing the staff, then I'll swing it. If it isn't, then it stays on my back. Regain atmas are my best friend now in aby yeah. I'm never going to let my lust for swinging this thing overcome the success of my alliance. Alliance success trumps everything else. This points just to what I posted earlier: It isn't the staff that's the problem, It's the players with the staff. Sad, but true. It is an amazing weapon but people need to adapt to it.

As for the this job is better for this route, I'll address that just by saying this: Smn is my main job, it has been since 2003. It's pretty much a passion for me. I've done my best to find ways to make it work where I can, and when it just can't work I adjust and play another job when needed. I can solo/tank lots of stuff in abyssea T3vnms, major nms, etc on smn this staff actually made that a lot easier believe it or not. It's a good weapon for summoner.

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well then good, we are of like mind. As i said before, i like the ws, im just not going to pull a dallas and use the staff as an excuse to be stupid.

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Originally Posted by Sira

well then good, we are of like mind. As i said before, i like the ws, im just not going to pull a dallas and use the staff as an excuse to be stupid.

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:D

I foresee an incoming Dallas tactical nuclear attack at any moment

Here's an interesting question; how much better does Hvergelmir become in non-melee situations if we get a Regain BP on the way to 99?

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Originally Posted by Tannlore

:D

I foresee an incoming Dallas tactical nuclear attack at any moment

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I predict more mocking of the magian +2s as useless(and a waste of time because it's easy to zero out perp with basic gear), while inisisting Hvergelmir is the only way to get free Avatars indefinitely, and all this without a hint of irony.

^This, or one of his usual examples of comedic genius(shame he's serious):D

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Originally Posted by Vicious

Here's an interesting question; how much better does Hvergelmir become in non-melee situations if we get a Regain BP on the way to 99?

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Right now, 100% TP = 360 MP outside of Abyssea. 1 regain = 3.6 refresh. A theoretical 4 regain Cait Sith favor is the same as 14.4 refresh.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

If you are too stupid to handle multiple roles in a party, play WAR.

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Is that why you are pretending to be a WAR?

Once more, viability arguments that rely on Atma are a waste of time. No one needs MP in Abyssea, and no one needs Summoner there either.

2 ways to "fix" Hvergelmir (or adapt it to the BLM/SCH playstyle)
1) Add a Job Trait that allows you to keep TP when switching weapons of the same type. Since both BLM/SCH both have Occult Acumen, problem solved.
2) Add Magic Potency or the like to the weapon.

SE isn't going to do either.

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Originally Posted by Tannlore

:D

I foresee an incoming Dallas tactical nuclear attack at any moment

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It's not the stupidest straw man ever created. Situational has always been the rule, and the situation is almost always melee. If it weren't true, no one would level crap jobs like WAR that only have melee.

please dont have babies with rosina...

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Originally Posted by Byrth

Once more, viability arguments that rely on Atma are a waste of time. No one needs MP in Abyssea, and no one needs Summoner there either.

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Tell that to the Nirvana guy who wants us to talk about him. Otherwise, you can get back to BG.

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Once more, viability arguments that rely on Atma are a waste of time. No one needs MP in Abyssea, and no one needs Summoner there either.

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If you're farming NMs or boxes, sure... but what about gaining XP/Merits, skilling up, breaking trial weapons, grinding Magian trials, or simply testing your skill against a NM for the personal value?

This thread isn't about how SMN is useless in Abyssea, it's about Hvergelmir supposedly being useless. It isn't. I don't see how your point has anything to do with it.

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Right now, 100% TP = 360 MP outside of Abyssea. 1 regain = 3.6 refresh. A theoretical 4 regain Cait Sith favor is the same as 14.4 refresh.

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Thanks for doing all that hard math for us, but I was looking for more of an answer regarding the applications and implications of such an ability.

Applications? It's MP. It's measurable. You spend it.

Precisely the sort of enlightened discourse I'd expect from you, thanks.

Let's break it down for you then: MP is spent on spells, avatar perp, and avatar BPs. If you get more MP, you can spend more. If you get too much of it, nothing happens. 14.4 refresh + 2 autorefresh = 328MP/minute. Just sitting around doing nothing, you can afford to keep an avatar out for 3 perp and spam BP rages.

Repeat this calculation for any number you want to fantasize about. Speculation about how much MP you will have from a BP that doesnt exist is not "enlightened."

No consideration whatsoever of how it would affect parties, or SMN's place in them, just some easy math, a pissy attitude, and a handwave. No wonder nobody likes you.

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Originally Posted by Vicious

No consideration whatsoever of how it would affect parties, or SMN's place in them, just some easy math, a pissy attitude, and a handwave. No wonder nobody likes you.

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shut down~

/thread for you dallas

Leonheart rarely gets likes from me... but he definitely scored one today. :p

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Originally Posted by Vicious

No consideration whatsoever of how it would affect parties, or SMN's place in them, just some easy math, a pissy attitude, and a handwave. No wonder nobody likes you.

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I tell you what, princess... If you want to know how regain BPs will impact parties, ask that, and not this:

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Originally Posted by Vicious

Here's an interesting question; how much better does Hvergelmir become in non-melee situations if we get a Regain BP on the way to 99?

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You show me the tardilope that figured out your question, then we can figure out why they didn't respond to you.

I know this is stupid obvious, but regain is otherwise useless in "non-melee situations." Hey, he asked it.

EDIT to add: SMN having problems getting invited to non-melee situations? Dubya-Tee-Eff. LOL

I believe I responded to your initial post where you flashed your considerable math skills with this:

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but I was looking for more of an answer regarding the applications and implications of such an ability.

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Anyone posting in good faith would have been able to figure out that I was expanding on the initial question to better articulate the sort of discussion I was looking for in the first place. Failure to do so indicates one of two things; you willfully ignored it so you could pursue being a jackass, or you're retarded.

Since I'm a nice guy, I'm going to let you take your pick.

Let me know when someone tackles explaining to you why Regain doesn't work at a fight where you kill the NM with RNG, SMN, and BLM. I have no intention of giving you the benefit of the doubt.

Yeah, damn, you are so right, how could I be so stupid. What use could a Hvergelmir SMN, Wildfire COR, or a RNG (especially a Relic RNG) possibly make of a Regain buff in a situation where feeding TP to build TP isn't feasible?

I know I said I'd give you the choice, but I'm leaning toward the latter option from my above post.

Dammit, Dallas arrived.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

Right now, 100% TP = 360 MP outside of Abyssea. 1 regain = 3.6 refresh. A theoretical 4 regain Cait Sith favor is the same as 14.4 refresh.

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Yes, 1 regain = 3.6 refresh. Too bad you can't use the "Refresh" for 5 minutes though. And only for about 360 mp. Think you can keep your avatar out that long for 5 minutes?

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Originally Posted by Vicious

Yeah, damn, you are so right, how could I be so stupid. What use could a Hvergelmir SMN, Wildfire COR, or a RNG (especially a Relic RNG) possibly make of a Regain buff in a situation where feeding TP to build TP isn't feasible?

I know I said I'd give you the choice, but I'm leaning toward the latter option from my above post.

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I still don't see a single person hopping to help you play fanboy, and they hate me. Guess no one gives a crap, so you can do something unoriginal and talk about RNG in a SMN thread, or you can move on. I will gladly make you hate talking to me.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

I still don't see a single person hopping to help you play fanboy, and they hate me. Guess no one gives a crap, so you can do something unoriginal and talk about RNG in a SMN thread, or you can move on. I will gladly make you hate talking to me.

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Ranger, Summoner and to a lesser extent Corsair are ideal in similar circumstances, since they all deal physical damage from a range while simultaneously providing the monster with less TP (less TP than most melee jobs in the case of Ranger and Corsair, no TP in the case of Summoner). Well, it's not always physical damage in the case of Corsair, but it's one of the few jobs that has that as an option so I decided to include it. Wildfire is better when applicable.

Also, you seem to be over-looking that Ranger and Corsair have the most uneven TP phase(hitting things)/weapon skill phase splits of all jobs that hit things with things.

I'll spell it out. A regain ability on Summoner would increase the job's synergy with jobs that serve a similar purpose, increase the usefulness of Havartidangler in ideal situations for Summoner, and increase Havartidangler's synergy with Summoner in general.

Yeah, I guess I'm being whooshed by an alien mother-ship from the planet of air elementals or something. I don't care. The original question was cool question. I feel it deserved more than a one-liner from a one-dimensional guy who knows one math equation that, much to Korpg's repeated and equally pointless chagrin, happens to be correct.

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Originally Posted by SpankWustler

I'll spell it out. A regain ability on Summoner would increase the job's synergy with jobs that serve a similar purpose, increase the usefulness of Havartidangler in ideal situations for Summoner, and increase Havartidangler's synergy with Summoner in general.

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Summoners everywhere will die of misery if an Avatar's Favor does regain. Lets hope it is a blood pact, if SE decides Summoner should get it. Still, Light Spirit could cast 5TP/tic Adloquium, and nobody would know it yet.

BP+Release Summoner is the most TP-feeding-efficient damage source if played well. BPs give 0 TP. This is another one of Summoner's strengths that you abandon when you melee something or let your avatar melee it.

Remember Scylla? Pretty nasty monster with the 75 cap. Uses several TP moves back to back when it gets TP and generally decimated whoever it was facing. Regardless, it was duo'able by RDM+SMN because it doesn't have regain and that combo can kill it without ever giving it TP.

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Originally Posted by Byrth

Remember Scylla? Pretty nasty monster with the 75 cap. Uses several TP moves back to back when it gets TP and generally decimated whoever it was facing. Regardless, it was duo'able by RDM+SMN because it doesn't have regain and that combo can kill it without ever giving it TP.

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The easiest way to defeat Scylla was actually to not know anyone who cared about Dancer, and therefor to never fight him. Sometimes you have to think outside the box, man.

I edited the bit of my post about TP given. It turns out that being really high on muscle relaxants isn't conducive to clarity of written word. Sorry.

BP/release is the reason this "what if" discussion fails. BLU can main heal, but they were invited for a higher purpose. Why the hell would SMN buff a RNG when the SMN replaced the RNG?