Nerfing Ukko/Vsmite so lazy players can be more useful?

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Originally Posted by Ragni

Since when NIN THF DRG DRK PUP COR are heavy DD. Yeah Ukko fury is overpowered but they should't cut crit rate by half - this is not fair. WAR got that power because he dont have defensive abilities - loldefender.

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DRG and DRK I'm pretty sure can be classified as heavy DDs.

I think they should have gotten something decent to bring them up to speed, as I don't agree with any nerfs, but lol yea.

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Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher

Wrong! WAR is seriously over-powered, if they upped other jobs it'd do nothing but make them equally over-powered.

You balance it to non over-powered first, then equal the other jobs that do the same role (aka DD's) to that area.

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That's when you adjust the target mobs, give them crit defense bonus, and things of that nature rather than up and up gimping something

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

I can understand the reasoning behind the changes, and to an extent I agree with the Ukko's change, but I don't really think that Victory Smite is in the same boat (I suppose that's why it wasn't reduced as heavily); I also don't feel that an ability that provides a strong buff that can only be active 10% of the time at best really needs to be nerfed either.

I do hope that it is shown that these nerfs are a bit on the heavy-handed side.

VIctory Smite is nowhere near the kind of broken power that Ukko's is, and I don't understand why it's being nerfed at all. I use it on PUP all the time (I can't speak for other people, but for me, it's outperforming Pummel, at least in Abyssea, and it skillchains better), so this can adfersely effect PUPs (not very much, but it certainly doesn't help them at all).

I agree that Ukko's needs a tone down, I don't agree that Victory Smite does also.

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Most likely the Victory Smite nerf had the MNK JA Impetus in mind, rather then nerfing Impetus which would hurt even non-emp holds. I do agree that it sucks that PUP was caught up in the cross fire on this. (Wonder if SE will ever make mythic weapons not take 6+ months so stuff like this does not happen to other jobs).

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Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher

Wrong! WAR is seriously over-powered, if they upped other jobs it'd do nothing but make them equally over-powered.

You balance it to non over-powered first, then equal the other jobs that do the same role (aka DD's) to that area.

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Basically what you want is for us to do level 75 damage. I don't understand this logic. When in FFXI did we gain levels and our ability to do damage did not become greater?

Why do people keep exagerating ws numbers. Ukos doesn't do anything like 6-9k on a regular basis outside Aby on VW mobs. Average is around 2-4k.

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Originally Posted by Ophannus

Oh no! So instead of doing 6k Ukko's Fury to Qilin they'll do 3k! Which is still 1k higher than NIN DRK DRG THF DNC RNG PUP COR MNK. WARs are lucky thats all the nerf they're getting. Even WITH the nerf, Ukko's is still BY FAR the strongest Empyrean WS, these updates are meant to bring it down on par with other emps that 15/25/40 crit% is the same as CDC/Hi and a few other crit WS, so in my eyes, it's fine.

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6k Ukko's Fury are not at all the norm on any VWNM. Are you on crack? If you think WAR deserved the nerf ok cool but at least have an educated opinion as to why that is.

The problem is balance, but not the way the term is usually used.

FFXI mechanics work great when everyone's level 30.

FFXI mechanics don't work so well when everyone's level 75-99.

The combat system was either not given much foresight, or just developed for too long with the consideration of the entire level range. I'd honestly be willing to bet it's more of the former but it's hard to do much about that at this point.

While I think SE went a little crazy with the Ukko's Fury nerf I do think WAR needed it. I only say this because WAR has access to some really nice +crit dmg gear and really high double attack. So, once you add in both those traits on top of the aftermath WAR's dmg out put seems a little out of hand..

However, I always believe it's better to buff and improve weaker jobs vs. nerfs.

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Originally Posted by Cream_Soda

That's when you adjust the target mobs, give them crit defense bonus, and things of that nature rather than up and up gimping something

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That's the equivalent of gimping these moves and we all know SE will take the easy route. The only difference being increasing the target mobs effects the other DD's not anywhere near par to MNK and especially WAR. So for them it's easier to gimp a move then have even more work to do.

A simpler solution in the first place would have been:

1. Not raising the Critical Hit Rate Cap
2. Think before implementing something

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Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher

That's the equivalent of gimping these moves and we all know SE will take the easy route.

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It's also the equivalent of having stayed at 75 which would have been a hell of a lot easier for them. I suppose they should've just left us at 75, so that they wouldn't have to work very hard.

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Originally Posted by Tsuneo

It's also the equivalent of having stayed at 75 which would have been a hell of a lot easier for them. I suppose they should've just left us at 75, so that they wouldn't have to work very hard.

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The game has basically stayed at level 75. Levels changed, not much else has.

I think the problem with bringing the rest of the weapons up would have been empyrean becoming the new baseline for DD jobs. Mobs would get adjusted against these WS, which would affect everybody without an empyrean weapon.

And is it really game breaking to reduce what they can do? Have events suddenly become lolwar? {Warrior}{No Thanks} Level a real job!

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Originally Posted by Xantavia

I think the problem with bringing the rest of the weapons up would have been empyrean becoming the new baseline for DD jobs. Mobs would get adjusted against these WS, which would affect everybody without an empyrean weapon.

And is it really game breaking to reduce what they can do? Have events suddenly become lolwar? {Warrior}{No Thanks} Level a real job!

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I don't agree. Empyreans are easy enough to get. Back at 75 wasn't some fantasy of there being no subpar players. Those people with top of the gear always did better than the less geared people who wiped to things.

I think we all are tired too read that word "Balance"...
First give to us strong Job ability and Weaponskill that make you Enjoy the Work you spent for make Emperyans like Ukovasara and Verethragna (Both Terrible, Long Paths) but you will think also the work you do, will get payd back with 2 strong Emperyans, with very strong Weaponskills... so, we wasted our time? also why don't use your nice word called "Balance" on : Ochain: like 99% Block rate?
why don't use your nice word "Balance" on Wildfire? that Weaponskill overparse everyone in Voidwatch. that is not overpowered?
why don't use your nice word "Balance" on Tachi: Shoa? that ws is overpowered more than Tachi:Kaiten/Tachi:Fudo... so we made that Relics/Emperyan just for get overparsed by a Merit Weaponskill? seems you Square-Enix like use your "Balance" word too random and only on Warriors and Monks..

Paladin is still teetering on the verge of uselessness, Corsair desperately needed the buff, and we all know SE rides Samurai schlong.

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH I'm losing 10% effectiveness with the worst possible conditions on my super overpowered weaponskill!

WAR is still going to be the best DD in the game. Get over it.

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Originally Posted by Prothscar

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH I'm losing 10% effectiveness with the worst possible conditions on my super overpowered weaponskill!

WAR is still going to be the best DD in the game. Get over it.

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Finally someone else comes out with what i've been thinking all along.

War is suddenly not going to be gimp you're still going to be the top dd stop crying.

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Originally Posted by Camate

Hello.

Thanks for all the feedback on this topic.

Sorry it took a bit to give you this information, but as I am sure you all read, we were out for the holidays.

There have been some comments asking for other weapon skills to be adjusted so that they are stronger. We actually looked into this, but due to the very large differences in values we determined it would be difficult because of the way it would tie into the balance of power between jobs. (In the case that things stayed the way they are, the chances that future abilities and equipment would have lower stats or simply not be possible to add would become increasingly high.)

The principle behind the current weapon skill adjustment follows the same principles for the aims of why warrior has been adjusted (Restraint, etc.):

1. Prevent becoming overpowered
2. Establish balance between warrior and other jobs (make it easier to balance)

　
The below adjustments have been set up on the test server.
This is the chance of critical hit for TP100%/200%/300% respectively.

• Ukko’s Fury
  Before adjustment: 30%/50%/80%
  　↓
  Test server version: 15%/25%/40%
  
  
• Victory Smite
  Before adjustment: 15%/30%/60%
  　↓
  Test server version: 10%/20%/35%

Since there are other abilities and equipment to take into account, although I cannot affirm anything just yet, we would like to see if we can perhaps raise the critical hit rate a bit after looking at your feedback and development/QA testing.

We will be putting the re-adjusted data onto the test server during the first update of the New Year and would like to continue to test this.

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What the hell?

Stay consistent.

What's wrong with the current crit rate on the test server? It's fine as is.

I can see raising MNK's base to 15% @ 100% at least to match Ukko's.

However raising Ukko's Fury past 15%? What's the point in even nerfing it to begin with then?

15% 25% 40% is more than enough. What would the point be in 20% 30% 50%? 20% 25% 40% doesn't make sense either.

Leave it as is. It's balanced with the remainder of critical hit weapon skills.

If you made it 20% 100%, 25% 200% the difference between 100 and 200% becomes irrelevant. 300% is substantial, but you want at least some glory to fall at tiers of 200%. Not a bridging gap of 5%.

So again.

All for V. Smite being 15% @100% TP.

Completely against Ukko's Fury being boosted past 15% @100% TP, and ESPECIALLY against 200% and 300% are higher than current test server values.

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Originally Posted by Xantavia

I think the problem with bringing the rest of the weapons up would have been empyrean becoming the new baseline for DD jobs. Mobs would get adjusted against these WS, which would affect everybody without an empyrean weapon.

And is it really game breaking to reduce what they can do? Have events suddenly become lolwar? {Warrior}{No Thanks} Level a real job!

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They're just crying because they're getting their e-peen shortened.

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Originally Posted by Camate

Hello.

Thanks for all the feedback on this topic.

Sorry it took a bit to give you this information, but as I am sure you all read, we were out for the holidays.

There have been some comments asking for other weapon skills to be adjusted so that they are stronger. We actually looked into this, but due to the very large differences in values we determined it would be difficult because of the way it would tie into the balance of power between jobs. (In the case that things stayed the way they are, the chances that future abilities and equipment would have lower stats or simply not be possible to add would become increasingly high.)

The principle behind the current weapon skill adjustment follows the same principles for the aims of why warrior has been adjusted (Restraint, etc.):

1. Prevent becoming overpowered
2. Establish balance between warrior and other jobs (make it easier to balance)

　
The below adjustments have been set up on the test server.
This is the chance of critical hit for TP100%/200%/300% respectively.

• Ukko’s Fury
  Before adjustment: 30%/50%/80%
  　↓
  Test server version: 15%/25%/40%
  
  
• Victory Smite
  Before adjustment: 15%/30%/60%
  　↓
  Test server version: 10%/20%/35%

Since there are other abilities and equipment to take into account, although I cannot affirm anything just yet, we would like to see if we can perhaps raise the critical hit rate a bit after looking at your feedback and development/QA testing.

We will be putting the re-adjusted data onto the test server during the first update of the New Year and would like to continue to test this.

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So basically what you're saying is they're lazy? Why encourage the C and B students to do better when we can just hit the A student, right?

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Originally Posted by Alcarin

I think we all are tired too read that word "Balance"...
First give to us strong Job ability and Weaponskill that make you Enjoy the Work you spent for make Emperyans like Ukovasara and Verethragna (Both Terrible, Long Paths) but you will think also the work you do, will get payd back with 2 strong Emperyans, with very strong Weaponskills... so, we wasted our time? also why don't use your nice word called "Balance" on : Ochain: like 99% Block rate?
why don't use your nice word "Balance" on Wildfire? that Weaponskill overparse everyone in Voidwatch. that is not overpowered?
why don't use your nice word "Balance" on Tachi: Shoa? that ws is overpowered more than Tachi:Kaiten/Tachi:Fudo... so we made that Relics/Emperyan just for get overparsed by a Merit Weaponskill? seems you Square-Enix like use your "Balance" word too random and only on Warriors and Monks..

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I'm so sick of people saying ukon path is long, no empy is hard to make to 90 gdi stop acting like they are.

My ls hammers the ukon/h2h path out we did one of each to 85 in less than a week for both, to get a top quality weapon in less than a week is not long.

They should remove the ws of the empyreans and add them all onto the 95 + version then they can unerf ukkos when people have actaully paid for the plates.

Oh and as for shoha get 300 tp use fudo then spam shoha and it's also far from overpowered either.

How on earth does it affect amano ? Most relics hardly used there relic weapon skill as it is. Were was all this uproar when empyreans came out and shit on relics ?

You cry babys are really pissing me off now.

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Originally Posted by Ragni

http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/9...wwwwwbunny.jpg

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Quoted text edited to reflect reality.

What kind of mentality do you even have? Oh right you're a galka.

Okay. Let's talk about Balance and let's talk about being -OVER POW-

So, you think what? 30% 50% 80% is SKILLFUL. It's hard WORKING?

You think it takes any type of ADEQUATE gear planning to achieve potential?

If ANYTHING is Lazy, it's WS with FREE critical hit rate.

THE IDEA, that you CAN seriously gear to the minimal, of the most minimal conditions of critical hit rate in a WS build and still ding over 60% OUTSIDE of Abyssea is LAZY.

It never took you planning to figure out your stats vs mobs, it doesn't take you time to figure out your critical hit rate and the potential increase of 1% critical hit rate or 3%.

It's a WS in which you stack WS DMG CRIT DMG STR Gorgets Belts More STR even go as far as to DUMP your dex for MORE STR.

You want to call people lazy because the WS they have doesn't have a free damage booster?

The truth is even Maschu +2 is ridiculous.

It's a ridiculously broken WS. The only reason it's so powerful is DUE to it's MASSIVE crit chance. DA, TA have high chances of Criticals. Therefore the WS can do insane damage.

Don't flaunt, Hard Work. All Empyreans take time to make, some less than others.

Someone implying that WAR, one of the two easiest jobs to play that even a drunken space monkey could achieve success at, takes skill? Lol'd.

I disagree with some of Amador's points though. Even with the crit rate lowered to 15% Ukko's Fury is the strongest weaponskill in the game. Several factors tie into this, fTP, WSC, the weapon itself having a ridiculous base damage, WAR's native abilities and traits, etc., not just the crit rate.

WAR can still achieve a rather massive crit rate on their weaponskill with proper buffs/equipment and nearly cap or cap dDEX while making minimal to no sacrifices in STR.

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Originally Posted by Cream_Soda

That's when you adjust the target mobs, give them crit defense bonus, and things of that nature rather than up and up gimping something

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Yes, you could do this but at the same time you would be lowering the other jobs that have crit WS (thf, nin, dnc, drg, rng, cor) to still do less damage. I honestly don't see how lowering a 2 fold Gaxe WS that had such high crit rate base is a bad thing. While I can agree 15% is a bit much, I also see why it was seen as necessary given the options available to increase the Crit rate on war alone.

I'm a little more concerned about the V.Smite rebalance than I am the gaxe however since it is a h2h (aka 1hand) WS that doesn't have quite the enhancements backing it as war do. I say this based on comparison to gear access, passive traits, and JA primarily. Currently war has Crit Att bonus, where as mnk doesn't, and their JA to increase crit rate resets if a hit is missed during the build up period where as I don't believe restraint does. While it is true that mnk can benefit from a war using blood rage, this is not always going to be available (or practical in certain situations) and is also being changed just to be a crit rate enhancer. Would seem more realistic to leave Vsmite as is at 100%, but possibly adjust the 200 and 300% values.

I'm neither a mnk/pup nor a war so it is hard to give an accurate representation on this, but that is my 2cents worth.

Restraint does reset if you miss a hit. Impetus is the far superior buff, and possibly second only to Berserk in terms of overall awesome buffiness if not ahead of Berserk.There was no reason to adjust Victory Smite's already levelled out natural crit rate though.

WAR and MNK are the 2 main Damage-Dealing jobs in the game, how can you even believe that nerfing the only 2 good weapon/weapon skills that is a pain in the back side to achieve, will bring balance?

The 2 jobs are MADE to output as much damage as possible, it's been that way since the 50 cap. To lower there damage even more 24 more levels is stupid, we are going to pretty much be outputting level 75 damage outside of abyssea.

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Originally Posted by Disguise

WAR and MNK are the 2 main Damage-Dealing jobs in the game, how can you even believe that nerfing the only 2 good weapon/weapon skills that is a pain in the back side to achieve, will bring balance?

The 2 jobs are MADE to output as much damage as possible, it's been that way since the 50 cap. To lower there damage even more 24 more levels is stupid, we are going to pretty much be outputting level 75 damage outside of abyssea.

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No more than all the other DD's, sorry, just because these two are over-powered that's SE's fault. They shouldn't be so much more powerful than the other DD's.

Ps. AHAHAHAHAHA Pain in the back, in what realm?

I struggle to hit 2k on DRG on Pil or Qilin with Chaos Roll, Food, Atmacite, Stalwarts, Champion's, Braver's drinks with enhanced Angon and WARs in my LS hit 3k without food or Stalwarts. With food and stalwarts alone WARs easily hit 5k-6k on Qilin and Pil while my damage hovers around 1500-2k.


Ukko's damage is not fair compared to other jobs or even other weapons. 5-6k is something I'd expect from a Relic WS or a Mythic WS, Emps can be made in a single week. Give this kind of damage output to Metatron's Torment and nobody would complain because those cost a crapton of time and money to make. Nobody would complain if relics did 5-7k on things. It's just that for the time/money spent on an 85 Ukon, the damage output is unfair compared to other empyreans,relics, mythics, job WS.

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Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher

Wrong! WAR is seriously over-powered, if they upped other jobs it'd do nothing but make them equally over-powered.

You balance it to non over-powered first, then equal the other jobs that do the same role (aka DD's) to that area.

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I'm not saying that the balance isn't currently wrong. I'm saying that SE's way to achieve balance is one that doesn't result in happy players except for the few douches that love to see anyone other than themselves get slapped down. Ukon has had the power it has had now for 14 levels. In that time, you can easily make adjustments to targets to deal with that side of the balance and then bring other jobs UP to achieve the player balance that you need. SE chooses an easier route by nerfing 1 job instead of improving a handful and in the process, upsets a good portion of their player base.

If you did it the other way, you would get many happy players whose jobs have been improved. The only unhappy players would be those douches who feed off other's misery.

Like I said before. SE just don't get it.

If you want epeen just go to Abyssea, that is why it is there lol.

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Originally Posted by Ophannus

I struggle to hit 2k on DRG on Pil or Qilin with Chaos Roll, Food, Atmacite, Stalwarts, Champion's, Braver's drinks with enhanced Angon and WARs in my LS hit 3k without food or Stalwarts. With food and stalwarts alone WARs easily hit 5k-6k on Qilin and Pil while my damage hovers around 1500-2k.


Ukko's damage is not fair compared to other jobs or even other weapons. 5-6k is something I'd expect from a Relic WS or a Mythic WS, Emps can be made in a single week. Give this kind of damage output to Metatron's Torment and nobody would complain because those cost a crapton of time and money to make. Nobody would complain if relics did 5-7k on things. It's just that for the time/money spent on an 85 Ukon, the damage output is unfair compared to other empyreans,relics, mythics, job WS.

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Metatron could really use some help compared to ukko's fury (even nerfed). You can achieve 2.5k+ dmg (sometimes rarley 3k) on kaggens, but you need to be buffed like hell. average dmg is 2k metatrons with normal buffs (aka berserk and food only). You can add as much STR and attack as you want to metatron, surpassing 3k consistently without mighty strikes is near impossible (on anything that has relative high defense). While you see tachi: shoha, resolution, ukyo's fury, victory smite shit all over the place :/.
Upheaval looked very promising, but its dmg hovers around metatrons damage.

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Originally Posted by Cream_Soda

That's when you adjust the target mobs, give them crit defense bonus, and things of that nature rather than up and up gimping something

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They did that with enfeebling spells. RDMs just love being utterly ineffective in their assigned role on most mobs!

Man all the tears are so delicious. I didn't even emo close to this when I found out Cloudsplitter sucked ass outside of a brew. So much crying over a slight nerf from an overpowered weapon. lol

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Originally Posted by Disguise

WAR and MNK are the 2 main Damage-Dealing jobs in the game, how can you even believe that nerfing the only 2 good weapon/weapon skills that is a pain in the back side to achieve, will bring balance?

The 2 jobs are MADE to output as much damage as possible, it's been that way since the 50 cap. To lower there damage even more 24 more levels is stupid, we are going to pretty much be outputting level 75 damage outside of abyssea.

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I'd like to point out that your "pain to make" comment is about as useful an argument as a person expecting revamps to the behavior of relic weapons on the same premises. The were originally "made to be top tier DD" and were a "pain to aquire" but have since been seriously outclassed in that department by emps, primarily due to their extremely unique build/behavior that hasn't aged well through the updates from 75.

War and mnk were made to be DD, but not made to be stupid amounts of DD at all times. Originally DD's shined in various circumstance, but were not all around stupidly over powered. Some like to play the sam card for 75 cap saying it was over powered, but looking at the build of the job and it's JA it was built to have higher WS frequency than any other job, which was then changed to allow other jobs this same luxury if at a lesser extent via sub.

The nerf of ukko's is long over due and I can't really understand why people are upset when other DD class couldn't come close to the performance of an U.K. war. Even a mediocrely geared war would surpass other DD with exceptional gear builds. That is not game balance. Someone else said it is douche bag mechanics for the dev or even a player to support a nerf to the WS, but looking at it from another perspective I think it is the exact opposite to expect 1 or 2 jobs to significantly out perform other jobs by not just a gap, but by leaps and bounds.

"shaking my head"

So many troll's, enjoying so much anguish.

Hey DEV team there a SS over on FFXIAH right now of a RNG hitting a 20k + Barrage in VW. Wanna pass that along to the higher ups, I think SE may want to pass some balance down the line on that.

ugh

This is what this thread is making me feel like.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FYTc55nGEI

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Originally Posted by Ophannus

I struggle to hit 2k on DRG on Pil or Qilin with Chaos Roll, Food, Atmacite, Stalwarts, Champion's, Braver's drinks with enhanced Angon and WARs in my LS hit 3k without food or Stalwarts. With food and stalwarts alone WARs easily hit 5k-6k on Qilin and Pil while my damage hovers around 1500-2k.
.

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With out buffs, just normal melee on WAR I see between 1.5 to 2k ukko's in VW content. 3k would be a high end lucky hit. With buffs up I'll see a lot more 2k to 3k's and if i'm lucky i'll see some higher numbers in there. IF your piling in all those things and hardly seeing "2k" the problem is right there. Your damage output is lacking because it needs a buff. If nerfing Ukko's/Blood rage/ and VS makes you feel like a better melee I don't know what to tell you. Because your still not hitting the numbers you'd like too see.

Let me ask you this are you /war or /sam? Like I said in another post WAR is design to output damage. Sam is design to increase weapon skill frequency. If your /sam that could be hurting your numbers.

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Originally Posted by Ophannus

I struggle to hit 2k on DRG on Pil or Qilin with Chaos Roll, Food, Atmacite, Stalwarts, Champion's, Braver's drinks with enhanced Angon and WARs in my LS hit 3k without food or Stalwarts. With food and stalwarts alone WARs easily hit 5k-6k on Qilin and Pil while my damage hovers around 1500-2k.


Ukko's damage is not fair compared to other jobs or even other weapons. 5-6k is something I'd expect from a Relic WS or a Mythic WS, Emps can be made in a single week. Give this kind of damage output to Metatron's Torment and nobody would complain because those cost a crapton of time and money to make. Nobody would complain if relics did 5-7k on things. It's just that for the time/money spent on an 85 Ukon, the damage output is unfair compared to other empyreans,relics, mythics, job WS.

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you're lying,

dont come in a thread full of ukko wars and tell us what our damage is. no one here is averaging 5k on any vw content.

SE's way of balancing is kind of like the American public school system trying to lower the difficulty of the tests so a greater majority of students pass.