Hvergelmir WTF SE

If you can make it to 2500MP in your Myrkr set you're only gaining 100 MP over +2 perp cost staves + MM. Not including weather/day bonus on hands, you need body+2, feet+2, ring and ToM Perpetuation cost -6 staff to break even on perpetuation of Avatars (before Refresh). So we're looking at a difference of 16 MP/tick vs 16.6 MP/tick (if my math is right?). Also, over TP at all and you're losing a chunk of what Hvergelmir actually has. Add in regain earring though, and you're in the clear.

That being said, you should be justified to use the Regain +2 Atmacite in Voidwatch, which actually creates a big draw to the MP recover aspect of the weapon. (The Atmacite in question gets +2 at Lv.10, as seen on the test server).

Still, Hvergelmir is only a niche weapon. That's it. SCH and BLM will benefit more from MM in Abyssea, and MAB/Sphere: Refresh Atmacite in Voidwatch. Even still, it's a bad idea to melee on any of those jobs.

Unless you have said criteria met, you shouldn't use the weapon.

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Originally Posted by SpankWustler

Sorry if this post lacks my usual clarity (if such clarity even exists), since tonight's pain relievers of choice are not kind to me.

The more normal part is that pets don't benefit from cruor buffs and thus start with lower STR, and the much weirder part is that STR somehow affects avatar damage much more than it affects a player's damage. I can't explain it without digging out the testing because I never bothered to memorize it, but it's a huge effect compared to what you'd expect to see or what an avatar gets from most forms of attack.

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I'd be interested in said information.

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If you can make it to 2500MP in your Myrkr set you're only gaining 100 MP over +2 perp cost staves + MM. Not including weather/day bonus on hands, you need body+2, feet+2, ring and ToM Perpetuation cost -6 staff to break even on perpetuation of Avatars (before Refresh). So we're looking at a difference of 16 MP/tick vs 16.6 MP/tick (if my math is right?). Also, over TP at all and you're losing a chunk of what Hvergelmir actually has. Add in regain earring though, and you're in the clear.

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That was precisely the point; they're comparable. The benefit is getting to dump Minikin for a 3rd Physical Atma... so if you're using Physical BPs, Hvergelmir is essentially Lunar+1. Nothing to sneeze at, if you ask me.

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Originally Posted by Vicious

That was precisely the point; they're comparable. The benefit is getting to dump Minikin for a 3rd Physical Atma... so if you're using Physical BPs, Hvergelmir is essentially Lunar+1. Nothing to sneeze at, if you ask me.

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I quite agree.

I'm not sure why anyone would be on SMN inside Abyssea though, but that's besides the point, and a topic for another day lol. I'm going to bed~

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I'm not sure why anyone would be on SMN inside Abyssea though, but that's besides the point, and a topic for another day lol.

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Sad, but true; but you can be damn sure that post-update, I'll be spending a week straight with Cait Sith thwacking things with my staff in a state of perpetual /gleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

On a more serious note, I've had pretty good success in Voidwatch on SMN/WHM when paired with a COR and 4 DDs; Tactician's (DDs are getting it anyway, no need to waste a roll on Evoker's) + Hvergelmir for MP; Cures, Status removal, Defensive BPs to keep the DDs standing when they go in range to proc; Offensive BPs for procs and damage when it's time to go for the kill.

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Originally Posted by Tannlore

I don't understand how ally resources are sacrificed to give me TP.

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If you are in an alliance, and you are hitting the mob people are fighting, you are feeding it TP by hitting it. Thus, even if you are contributing significantly by hitting the mob, you are still costing allies resources, by causing more TP moves from the mob.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

LOL, Physical pacts > magic pacts and Myrkr > Minikin. It all comes down to a Ukon WAR having to eventually admit he is a subpar SMN.

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Have you soloed Alfard yet? No?

Have you tanked Pantokrator yet? No?

Have you ever fought anything worthwhile yet? No?

Maybe it isn't the Ukon WAR that is the subpar SMN....

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

Considering 5/5 Heavenly Strike is +100 TP bonus, Legs +2 are +100 TP bonus (I think?), and you can Mana Cede for 300% effective TP on a BP/release type of deal using an atma slot for VV would be pointless in that respect.

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Got to correct you on this Leon, the first merit on BPs is using the move, every merit afterwards is 40%, so having 5/5 would be 160% TP bonus on the move. Legs +2 are +50 though, and having Caller's Pendant would increase TP between BPs at 37.5% (15*2.5). Just those alone would mean that, without having the avatar on the mob, Heavenly Strike would have 247.5% TP on it all the time. Having the avatar melee would put it above 300% TP. Avatars don't need atma for getting TP. And Dallas still assumes that Physical BPs > Magical with RR, Apoc and VV? Just Beyond alone would do more damage with Heavenly Strike than Predator Claws, more consistent damage (5% resist rate instead of having 5% miss rate on each of the 3-6 hits on Predator Claws) and is more likely going to be effected by +2 set than any Physical BPs.

And with magical BPs, you can include 2 other atmas on it, which can differ what you are doing (solo or party style play).

Also, Avatar base damage appears to be 1 STR = 1 base damage, so that's why STR Atma are so good for Avatars. I think people often forget that we have a limited understanding of how TP affects Physical BPs though. For instance (and I haven't done any kind of controlled test here), I'm not sure 300TP Spinning Dives do any more damage than 0TP Spinning Dives. I don't know how TP is modding that, but it's in some non-obvious way (perhaps crit rate?).

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I'm not sure why anyone would be on SMN inside Abyssea though

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Because that's the job they chose to level? Not everyone is an elitist who levels every single job and only plays the "good" ones.

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I think people often forget that we have a limited understanding of how TP affects Physical BPs though

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limited understanding? we have a total understanding. TP has precisely zero effect on physical BPs, it only affects magical BPs. TP does not get consumed when you use a physical BP and does get consumed when you use a magical BP. It doesn't take a genious, especially with the fairly obvious lack of benefit (Use a BP that doesn't vary as wildly as pclaws) to see that TP is not used in any way shape or form on them.

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If you can make it to 2500MP in your Myrkr set you're only gaining 100 MP over +2 perp cost staves + MM.

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apples to oranges comparison. You aren't considering the beneficial effects of the atma you'd use in its place, either. Theorycraft also routinely differs from practice. Myrkr continues to benefit you when you have perpetuation in other slots. You seem to be assuming that the user is wearing no perp cost. We don't even need a weapon to offset perp cost, so a comparison to a +2 perp cost staff is meaningless.

I'm not dallas. I don't wear a maximum DD set for hvergelmir. When I'm alone, the monster still dies faster, DD set or not, and my MP stays full.

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and is more likely going to be effected by +2 set than any Physical BPs.

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Um how do you figure? The set bonus doesn't say "oh, this is a physical pact, I don't feel like activating for it today."

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I'm not sure 300TP Spinning Dives do any more damage than 0TP Spinning Dives. I don't know how TP is modding that, but it's in some non-obvious way (perhaps crit rate?).

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I'm a firm believer that TP does nothing unless it gets eaten. Only exception I think exists is how BLU TP helps their spell accuracy, but that might just be some random rumor I once heard.

That's just a rumor, TP doesn't affect physical blue spells without CA/Efflux I believe, and mainly affects them in the way described in the description of the spell (if it says damage varies by TP etc.). Holding TP on BLU does nothing but make you deal less damage.

Avatar TP does not lower at all with Physical BPs. You can test this yourself by typing /pettp before a Physical BP, use that Physical BP, and type /pettp again.

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That's just a rumor

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It's not a rumor, it's a fact. I'm more sure about it than everything else I've said on this forum ever.

Physical BPs do not consume TP (really, just use <pettp> before and after. It's not hard.). Magic BPs do.

Magic BPs gain a clear benefit from TP. Physical BPs don't. Not just damage BPs either, healing bloodpacts all gain potency from TP.

If TP isn't consumed, it's not doing anything.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

It's not a rumor, it's a fact. I'm more sure about it than everything else I've said on this forum ever.

Physical BPs do not consume TP (really, just use <pettp> before and after. It's not hard.). Magic BPs do.

Magic BPs gain a clear benefit from TP. Physical BPs don't. Not just damage BPs either, healing bloodpacts all gain potency from TP.

If TP isn't consumed, it's not doing anything.

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He was talking about BLU spells and being effected by TP outside of Chain Affinity. He was not talking about BPs.

EDIT: Korpg got it, nitpick Efflux is included to that but otherwise yes that was what I meant.

Ah, OK. somewhere I missed that.

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Originally Posted by Economizer

If you are in an alliance, and you are hitting the mob people are fighting, you are feeding it TP by hitting it. Thus, even if you are contributing significantly by hitting the mob, you are still costing allies resources, by causing more TP moves from the mob.

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So does everything that hits the nm. This is why you TP on other mobs. Who said I... or any smn with a brain would be TPing on the nm? Again, smn = solo job. I can easily pull off any nearby mob by myself, not need to bother a nearby healer to babysit me and build my own tp... and while I'm at it, send the avatar off BP the nm (or not even if it's a merit BP, they are ranged) and still work on building TP.

This point is moot, old, and needs to stop being brought up. It doesn't hold water for other jobs, it doesn't hold water here either. There are other methods for building TP than beating on the nm the alliance is fighting: Wings, nearby mobs, etc.

Only a moron would feed nms tp like this ya? :)

I was not attacking you, condemning your playstyle or saying anything that wasn't completely true. I was merely answering the question. Note that I said "even if you are contributing significantly" which would be everyone hitting the mob. Further, you said "doing damage with my staff", implying you were hitting the mob in the theoretical situation. Not every situation has side mobs for you to hit, and other methods of TP gain can either expensive items or other factors that drain ally resources.

Please don't assume everyone is attacking you, I was merely answering the question you asked about gameplay mechanics. TP build costs allied resources.

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Not every situation has side mobs for you to hit, and other methods of TP gain can either expensive items or other factors that drain ally resources.

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until the "resources" you are "costing" become significant, everything is fine. e.g. unless the WHM(s) is/are struggling to keep everyone alive, then you're not damaging the group's success.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

until the "resources" you are "costing" become significant, everything is fine. e.g. unless the WHM(s) is/are struggling to keep everyone alive, then you're not damaging the group's success.

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But that's the thing! I never judged if he was damaging the groups success, only that it costs resources to do what he is doing.

I'm a little bugged that I got such a negative reply on such a bland answer, while we have others around here saying things like "Summoners is a shitty Warrior" or whatever statements are flying around. :mad:

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Originally Posted by Economizer

I'm a little bugged that I got such a negative reply on such a bland answer, while we have others around here saying things like "Summoners is a shitty Warrior" or whatever statements are flying around.

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Well, I guess everything that can deal damage is a shitty Warrior in a sense now isn't it?

:trollface: u mad?

Edit: /epeen off

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

Well, I guess everything that can deal damage is a shitty Warrior in a sense now isn't it?

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But, doesn't everything that can deal damage include Warrior itself? Man, in that case, that's some heavy and philosophical stuff...

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Originally Posted by SpankWustler

But, doesn't everything that can deal damage include Warrior itself? Man, in that case, that's some heavy and philosophical stuff...

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I had something witty to say, but I forgot it.

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

I had something witty to say, but I forgot it.

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That's because Warrior is a shitty SpankWustler.

If you are too stupid to handle multiple roles in a party, play WAR.

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Originally Posted by Economizer

I was not attacking you, condemning your playstyle or saying anything that wasn't completely true. I was merely answering the question. Note that I said "even if you are contributing significantly" which would be everyone hitting the mob. Further, you said "doing damage with my staff", implying you were hitting the mob in the theoretical situation.

Please don't assume everyone is attacking you, I was merely answering the question you asked about gameplay mechanics. TP build costs allied resources.

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The problems of assumptions is that it is very easy to do it yourself. My post was generalized on purpose. I never said "Economizer, you" directly for a reason.

"This point needs to stop being brought up" as opposed to, "Economizer, You need to stop bringing this point up" mostly because you didn't bring this point up in the first place. I even added a :) at the end to blunt the sharpness of what I knew was something you might see as directed at you. You do realize this yes? And now this post IS directed right at you. This is the difference. Not every strongly worded response is an attack either. Stop assuming so.

Now to address the rest of your post:

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Originally Posted by Economizer

1)Not every situation has side mobs for you to hit,2) and other methods of TP gain can either expensive items or 3)other factors that drain ally resources.

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As I said earlier: Learn to adapt your play style to the weapon, not the weapon to your play style

1) No other mobs to gain TP: use items, or use perp- staves. Yes the emp staff can infact come off a smn's back (mine does)
2) the cost of items to fuel my TP is of no concern/effect to the alliance. It is of concern to my pocket book. Quite frankly (And if this sounds rude I'm sorry, but it's true) the alliance can flush it's concern for my gil's pocket book down the toilet where it belongs.
3)Other factors being what? It boils down to the player knowing how to use the staff. People have focused so much on how bad the staff is and it isn't. The PLAYERS are bad, not the staff.

(this is generalized and not directed at you btw)
Stop blaming the staff, blame the bad players using the staff.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

If you are too stupid to handle multiple roles in a party, play WAR.

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obligatory

u mad bro?

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

If you can make it to 2500MP in your Myrkr set you're only gaining 100 MP over +2 perp cost staves + MM. Not including weather/day bonus on hands, you need body+2, feet+2, ring and ToM Perpetuation cost -6 staff to break even on perpetuation of Avatars (before Refresh). So we're looking at a difference of 16 MP/tick vs 16.6 MP/tick (if my math is right?). Also, over TP at all and you're losing a chunk of what Hvergelmir actually has. Add in regain earring though, and you're in the clear.

That being said, you should be justified to use the Regain +2 Atmacite in Voidwatch, which actually creates a big draw to the MP recover aspect of the weapon. (The Atmacite in question gets +2 at Lv.10, as seen on the test server).

Still, Hvergelmir is only a niche weapon. That's it. SCH and BLM will benefit more from MM in Abyssea, and MAB/Sphere: Refresh Atmacite in Voidwatch. Even still, it's a bad idea to melee on any of those jobs.

Unless you have said criteria met, you shouldn't use the weapon.

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I had to bite on this one :D

Problem with theorycrafting is paper math is only good on paper! Having the weapon myself, here is what experience has shown me:

I have free avatars now, at 95 avatars will cost me 2 perp a tick with emp staff on, or nothing free+ with my perp- staves on. Perp is still and will not be an issue. However that being said. Here is what experience has taught me and I welcome anyone on asura to come and test with me btw:

In the time it takes me to build 100% tp I can overcome naked perp costs + the cost of a ward and rage BP outside of abyssea soloing. (yes I know this isn't in a great big giant alliance set up)

In abyssea with atmas it takes me much less time to achive the above effect (and I can do this in a great big alliance set up.. hey!)

with MM it takes me a bit longer to recover the lost mp it, outside of abyssea I have no hopes of recovering that mp without dismissing and siphoning or resting or ideling and letting my auto-refresh recover it.

And that's the point: It's not just the perp you recover with this staff, it's the cost of blood pacting you get back. Perp recover is a thing of the past and easily overcome with just gear. You can get free avatars without a weapon all together now.

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

obligatory

u mad bro?

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Remedial SMN lessons. Get some. +2 magian staves are worthless in the hands of a competent and well geared SMN. You are obviously neither and everyone can see it. Go back to "love my WAR." It suits you better.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

Remedial SMN lessons. Get some. +2 magian staves are worthless in the hands of a competent and well geared SMN. You are obviously neither and everyone can see it. Go back to "love my WAR." It suits you better.

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lol yeah, u mad fo sho bro

there is a difference between "free" and having "free + refresh"

you can have a free garuda and 6-9 refresh depending on the circumstances, so that means in between blood pacts you regain 90 to 135 mp at the minimum, which is rather dodgey at best if you can get them at exactly 45 seconds let alone given the option that you WILL be spamming them, so we'll say you will be getting around 102 to 153 mp in between pacts. Now your standard blood pacts for garuda costs 112 to 164 mp, so eventually you will have to siphon, and that would be quite rare if you were acting as you should as a summoner.

now if you were to use Hvergelmir you will have a rather backwards effect, instead of having a constant gain of mp, you will have a free garuda, but no free or costly blood pacts. your solution would be to melee at the cost of more mp to cover the costs of cures and generally everything you would need to survive, thats if you dont get hit with a devastating AOE, so not only are you burning mp from your blood pacts but you are also burning mp to keep yourself well defended from the mob you are willfully attacking to get back 500-600 mp per myrkr.

so with the amount of mp you are burning to remain productive, myrkr isnt really doing anything at all.

Now if you wanted to remain with a perp stave and not siphon while riding your timers hard or what ever situation where you would actually run low on mp, you could pop on Hvergelmir and a wing to go wack the mob with myrkr to gain some of that mp back and return to standing back.

on a low lvl mob i can kind of see meleeing to add the minimal extra dmg, but on anything worth a damn you should be no where near the mob, you aren't getting gear like the typical melee jobs are, nor are you combat skills set correctly to handle getting attacked. So do us all a favor, act like the pet job that you are playing, and stand the fuck back out of the way.

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

lol yeah, u mad fo sho bro

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Simple math: -1000 perp = -12 perp. -1000 BP timer = -15 BP timer.

Since -12 perp and -15 BP timer are available on other gear, and all other pieces are macro only, magian +2 is worthless to a competent and well geared SMN. What idiot taught you how to play SMN?

ITT: Pet: attack/accuracy/magic attack staves do nothing (actually, I'll even give you the attack staff does nothing).

Nirvana craps all over Hvelg.

Let's put this in terms the WAR will understand:

A SMN wielding a magian perp staff is as stupid as a WAR wearing a D54 G.Axe with 10% Haste.

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

Nirvana craps all over Hvelg.

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Not really. The perp- isn't needed, and the WS doesn't actually require the weapon. I'ts only markedly better for using magic BPs.
I would probably use one if I had one, but Hvergelmir is obtainable whereas Nirvana is not (Both the weapon and the state of mind :p )

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

Nirvana craps all over Hvelg.

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Until it runs out of MP. Then it craps all over itself.

If you're dding like Dallas apparently does, then Nirvana does crap all over hvelg for damage since it includes avatars. Not that it matters since aside from trash mobs the Smn shouldn't be meleeing anyway. Inside you can keep mp up without having to use Myrkr, outside it's either 75 content/WoE or VW where you won't be meleeing.

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Originally Posted by Sira

there is a difference between "free" and having "free + refresh"

you can have a free garuda and 6-9 refresh depending on the circumstances, so that means in between blood pacts you regain 90 to 135 mp at the minimum, which is rather dodgey at best if you can get them at exactly 45 seconds let alone given the option that you WILL be spamming them, so we'll say you will be getting around 102 to 153 mp in between pacts. Now your standard blood pacts for garuda costs 112 to 164 mp, so eventually you will have to siphon, and that would be quite rare if you were acting as you should as a summoner.

now if you were to use Hvergelmir you will have a rather backwards effect, instead of having a constant gain of mp, you will have a free garuda, but no free or costly blood pacts. your solution would be to melee at the cost of more mp to cover the costs of cures and generally everything you would need to survive, thats if you dont get hit with a devastating AOE, so not only are you burning mp from your blood pacts but you are also burning mp to keep yourself well defended from the mob you are willfully attacking to get back 500-600 mp per myrkr.

so with the amount of mp you are burning to remain productive, myrkr isnt really doing anything at all.

Now if you wanted to remain with a perp stave and not siphon while riding your timers hard or what ever situation where you would actually run low on mp, you could pop on Hvergelmir and a wing to go wack the mob with myrkr to gain some of that mp back and return to standing back.

on a low lvl mob i can kind of see meleeing to add the minimal extra dmg, but on anything worth a damn you should be no where near the mob, you aren't getting gear like the typical melee jobs are, nor are you combat skills set correctly to handle getting attacked. So do us all a favor, act like the pet job that you are playing, and stand the fuck back out of the way.

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Yikes... You have been misinformed on this staff and how the WS works. 20/40/60% MP. 500/600mp at 60% mp? As a summoner if you are getting back 600 mp at 60% of your max mp pool call a GM, your character is damaged.

Let's begin here.. First off, if you are being hit over and over again with AoE you fail as a summoner. Get out of stupid and stop being in AoE that's what you have a pet for, put on your perp- stave if you don't have a regain atma on. I've said this in past posts, you did read these before you posted this.... this.. diatribe yes? I hope you did. I get back 1600-1800MP a WS with my staff, yes.. 1600-1800 a WS, not 500-600. I don't know where you get your numbers from.. but man... gear your WS please in fact I usualy HOLD my tp for ever because it's a waste to blow 300% tp/1600 mp on a WS (And yeah I'm spamming my BP: Rages AND wards over and over). Constant MP gain is great, but if your mp is full, what's it gaining you? Since I've gotten my staff I've siphoned .... wait I haven't had to siphon once.... at all... ever... since I got the staff. And you know what? I find it AMAZING! I find it liberating!

On holding my TP. If I'm in a battle where, for instance I need to output max damage fast in say abyssea and I know the fights won't be long and drawn out? I'll skip on using my emp staff, put on MM and use my magian magic atk stave instead. I've said it before, the staff isn't glued to my back. It comes off.

All I am detecting is someone who made a magian stave and is feeling hurt over having done that work. Don't be. I have them too and I use them when it isn't convenient to use my Emp staff. It isn't always convenient to use my emp staff. But you can not dismiss the power of the emp staff. It is limitless MP. You can use the WS from a distance.... MAX engagement distance, it never misses, garners no aggro (you can target some random mob you have not even engaged/aggroed, used the ws and put the weapon away... the mob won't even blink at you) and go your merry way.

All I ever hear from people when they see this staff is: LOL you made that staff then once they see me use it for 10 mins is: OMG I want to make that staff!

There's no way you are keeping up MP *and* keeping Nirvana's 300% TP Aftermath up *and* using all the best DD atma. Let's not forget that you have to use all MAGICAL atma to play to Nirvana's strengths, so your physical DD is going to be awful. Occasionally does 2 pathetic melee attacks instead of one.