Hvergelmir WTF SE

[Leonlionheart]

If you can make it to 2500MP in your Myrkr set you're only gaining 100 MP over +2 perp cost staves + MM. Not including weather/day bonus on hands, you need body+2, feet+2, ring and ToM Perpetuation cost -6 staff to break even on perpetuation of Avatars (before Refresh). So we're looking at a difference of 16 MP/tick vs 16.6 MP/tick (if my math is right?). Also, over TP at all and you're losing a chunk of what Hvergelmir actually has. Add in regain earring though, and you're in the clear.

That being said, you should be justified to use the Regain +2 Atmacite in Voidwatch, which actually creates a big draw to the MP recover aspect of the weapon. (The Atmacite in question gets +2 at Lv.10, as seen on the test server).

Still, Hvergelmir is only a niche weapon. That's it. SCH and BLM will benefit more from MM in Abyssea, and MAB/Sphere: Refresh Atmacite in Voidwatch. Even still, it's a bad idea to melee on any of those jobs.

Unless you have said criteria met, you shouldn't use the weapon.

[Leonlionheart]

Sorry if this post lacks my usual clarity (if such clarity even exists), since tonight's pain relievers of choice are not kind to me.

The more normal part is that pets don't benefit from cruor buffs and thus start with lower STR, and the much weirder part is that STR somehow affects avatar damage much more than it affects a player's damage. I can't explain it without digging out the testing because I never bothered to memorize it, but it's a huge effect compared to what you'd expect to see or what an avatar gets from most forms of attack.

I'd be interested in said information.

[Vicious]

If you can make it to 2500MP in your Myrkr set you're only gaining 100 MP over +2 perp cost staves + MM. Not including weather/day bonus on hands, you need body+2, feet+2, ring and ToM Perpetuation cost -6 staff to break even on perpetuation of Avatars (before Refresh). So we're looking at a difference of 16 MP/tick vs 16.6 MP/tick (if my math is right?). Also, over TP at all and you're losing a chunk of what Hvergelmir actually has. Add in regain earring though, and you're in the clear.

That was precisely the point; they're comparable. The benefit is getting to dump Minikin for a 3rd Physical Atma... so if you're using Physical BPs, Hvergelmir is essentially Lunar+1. Nothing to sneeze at, if you ask me.

[Leonlionheart]

That was precisely the point; they're comparable. The benefit is getting to dump Minikin for a 3rd Physical Atma... so if you're using Physical BPs, Hvergelmir is essentially Lunar+1. Nothing to sneeze at, if you ask me.

I quite agree.

I'm not sure why anyone would be on SMN inside Abyssea though, but that's besides the point, and a topic for another day lol. I'm going to bed~

[Vicious]

I'm not sure why anyone would be on SMN inside Abyssea though, but that's besides the point, and a topic for another day lol.

Sad, but true; but you can be damn sure that post-update, I'll be spending a week straight with Cait Sith thwacking things with my staff in a state of perpetual /gleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

On a more serious note, I've had pretty good success in Voidwatch on SMN/WHM when paired with a COR and 4 DDs; Tactician's (DDs are getting it anyway, no need to waste a roll on Evoker's) + Hvergelmir for MP; Cures, Status removal, Defensive BPs to keep the DDs standing when they go in range to proc; Offensive BPs for procs and damage when it's time to go for the kill.

[Economizer]

I don't understand how ally resources are sacrificed to give me TP.

If you are in an alliance, and you are hitting the mob people are fighting, you are feeding it TP by hitting it. Thus, even if you are contributing significantly by hitting the mob, you are still costing allies resources, by causing more TP moves from the mob.

[Korpg]

LOL, Physical pacts > magic pacts and Myrkr > Minikin. It all comes down to a Ukon WAR having to eventually admit he is a subpar SMN.

Have you soloed Alfard yet? No?

Have you tanked Pantokrator yet? No?

Have you ever fought anything worthwhile yet? No?

Maybe it isn't the Ukon WAR that is the subpar SMN....

[Korpg]

Considering 5/5 Heavenly Strike is +100 TP bonus, Legs +2 are +100 TP bonus (I think?), and you can Mana Cede for 300% effective TP on a BP/release type of deal using an atma slot for VV would be pointless in that respect.

Got to correct you on this Leon, the first merit on BPs is using the move, every merit afterwards is 40%, so having 5/5 would be 160% TP bonus on the move. Legs +2 are +50 though, and having Caller's Pendant would increase TP between BPs at 37.5% (15*2.5). Just those alone would mean that, without having the avatar on the mob, Heavenly Strike would have 247.5% TP on it all the time. Having the avatar melee would put it above 300% TP. Avatars don't need atma for getting TP. And Dallas still assumes that Physical BPs > Magical with RR, Apoc and VV? Just Beyond alone would do more damage with Heavenly Strike than Predator Claws, more consistent damage (5% resist rate instead of having 5% miss rate on each of the 3-6 hits on Predator Claws) and is more likely going to be effected by +2 set than any Physical BPs.

And with magical BPs, you can include 2 other atmas on it, which can differ what you are doing (solo or party style play).

[Byrth]

Also, Avatar base damage appears to be 1 STR = 1 base damage, so that's why STR Atma are so good for Avatars. I think people often forget that we have a limited understanding of how TP affects Physical BPs though. For instance (and I haven't done any kind of controlled test here), I'm not sure 300TP Spinning Dives do any more damage than 0TP Spinning Dives. I don't know how TP is modding that, but it's in some non-obvious way (perhaps crit rate?).

[Alhanelem]

I'm not sure why anyone would be on SMN inside Abyssea though

Because that's the job they chose to level? Not everyone is an elitist who levels every single job and only plays the "good" ones.

I think people often forget that we have a limited understanding of how TP affects Physical BPs though

limited understanding? we have a total understanding. TP has precisely zero effect on physical BPs, it only affects magical BPs. TP does not get consumed when you use a physical BP and does get consumed when you use a magical BP. It doesn't take a genious, especially with the fairly obvious lack of benefit (Use a BP that doesn't vary as wildly as pclaws) to see that TP is not used in any way shape or form on them.

If you can make it to 2500MP in your Myrkr set you're only gaining 100 MP over +2 perp cost staves + MM.

apples to oranges comparison. You aren't considering the beneficial effects of the atma you'd use in its place, either. Theorycraft also routinely differs from practice. Myrkr continues to benefit you when you have perpetuation in other slots. You seem to be assuming that the user is wearing no perp cost. We don't even need a weapon to offset perp cost, so a comparison to a +2 perp cost staff is meaningless.

I'm not dallas. I don't wear a maximum DD set for hvergelmir. When I'm alone, the monster still dies faster, DD set or not, and my MP stays full.

and is more likely going to be effected by +2 set than any Physical BPs.

Um how do you figure? The set bonus doesn't say "oh, this is a physical pact, I don't feel like activating for it today."