Bahamut Coil Saves

Hi guys, i want to say that current system for Bahamut coil saves is annoying as hell.

Right now, after u complete it, for a week, you cant repeat that part. This is to evade people spamming the same Turn for loot and i think that is good to limit people to only run each Turn of bahamut coil once a week for loot but it have a big issue. Right now in my FC we HAVE to split in set parties to move forward, but this makes some people to be imposible to run BCoB with your FC, Example:

your FC have 26 members, in groups of 8, they complete Turn 1 but.. these are 3 parties of 8 members = 24

2 guys in your FC CANNOT run bahamut coil because the other 24 cant repeat it by design. So this is my suggestion:

Limit Need/Greed and token rewards for these without a save in that Dungeon, so these who did it already cannot earn more than help his friends.



Edited for easy understand... my EngRish!!

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Originally Posted by Raistlin

Hi guys, i want to say that current system for Bahamut coil saves is annoying as hell. Right now, after u complete it, for a week, you cant repeat that part. This comes to evade people spamming the same part for loot, i got it... but right now in my FC we HAVE to split in set parties to advance, what happens with these who cant fill a group? they have to do it for themself, we cant join just for help.

Really... was not easier to limit need/greed and tokens for these without save? So these who did it already cannot earn more than help his friends?... seriously.

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What.

If im understanding your broken words... This is how its suppose to be, as you figured they don't want people to just gear up and run turns over and over for gear, nor do they want people to just carry people in to run it over and over. Carrying people to get the gear is pointless and doesn't help them. Coil is the final instance available right now, what would be the point for one group to do it and then carry others through it so they can gear up and then..... sit and do nothing with that character.

They want people to play the game themselves, as you should want to. It's no fun to just be a backseat driver and have shit handed to you

I see the need for a lock out but it should only be for a day. Like OP said, you're forced to find a group and stick to it. Really hurts players trying to get into coil because of premades. If you complete a turn then are just locked out for the next day it's not a big deal.

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Originally Posted by Drakkan

What.

If im understanding your broken words... This is how its suppose to be, as you figured they don't want people to just gear up and run turns over and over for gear, nor do they want people to just carry people in to run it over and over. Carrying people to get the gear is pointless and doesn't help them. Coil is the final instance available right now, what would be the point for one group to do it and then carry others through it so they can gear up and then..... sit and do nothing with that character.

They want people to play the game themselves, as you should want to. It's no fun to just be a backseat driver and have shit handed to you

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I am with you on this one...I want to play and win and comlete things myself, not have someone do it for me. If I run a dungeon or fight and I die while they finish...I rerun it again until I do the fight properly and feel like I EARNED the completion and someone did not have to save my ass. Sometimes we all need someone to save our ass (Thanks White Mages, Scholars, Black Mages, etc. we need you sooooo bad...) It is one thing to die right before the Primal dies and it is another for three or two people to carry the entire fight and make up for someone.
That is my 2gil.

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Originally Posted by Drakkan

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He's asking for you to be able to repeat the turn with your friends, but not get loot if you're repeating it. I don't see anything unreasonable about it. If you complete it, you should be able to repeat it just not for anymore loot. This way if you have 11 dedicated FC members playing, everyone can have their turn to get it done.

WoW any many other MMOs use the same system for raid lockouts. For example you raid Ice Crown kill the first 4 bosses you can't go back and help anyone kill those first 4 bosses.

If they let you go back and help people just not let you need/greed on gear this is what would happen. An 8 man raid group would have everyone create a 2nd character gear them up with ilvl 70 gear and do personal runs for each character, taking 7 alts and 1 main funnel all the gear to the main, people then swap off who plays the main. Now their group has 8 times the loot instead of 1. Coil Turn 1-4 takes like an hour to beat, so no doubt people would abuse any kind of system to that lets you go back and do stuff your already saved to. Nobody has beat turn 5 because of the huge gear check.

So the current restriction then is...beat a turn and then locked out of that turn for one week and then you can do it again...is that right??
They seem like they are just slowing people down at that point then...they can always take their friend through in a week still...they are just making it a bit more challenging or annoying to do so.

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Originally Posted by Mikedizzy

So the current restriction then is...beat a turn and then locked out of that turn for one week and then you can do it again...is that right??
They seem like they are just slowing people down at that point then...they can always take their friend through in a week still...they are just making it a bit more challenging or annoying to do so.

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It's a week lock out which resets on Monday. The sole purpose of it is to prevent people from spamming it and gearing up fast, slowing down progression so you can't cap out on gear get everything and then want to quit the game.

Don't see the problem. In my FC we have three individual groups progressing in coil. Try finding a free company or forming your own group maybe? Trust me, it's more satisfying to do the fights with people who haven't done it before, so you have to learn together. It's a great bonding experience.

The issue with this is 2 fold.

1) It is purely designed for static groups. So the design itself is hurting endgame guilds really badly. People are forced to fragment their groups into smaller sections and it forces you not to be able to help others at all.
2) It drops best in slot gear... so even with alliance content coming out it is still not helping that the best gear in the game you cannot do well as a guild.

SE needs to redesign this content to be doable as a guild not just a static... or quickly release something that is better then this (Gear wise) that is designed for guilds either repeatable or doable with more then 8 people. Currently this design is putting huge amount of pressure to screw over large amounts of members and it is causing large amount of drama in serious endgame freecompanys. The Raid Group / Everyone else model is a garbage model model, does not matter if most mmos use it... it is designed around clicks and screwing over others not in the group.

Baha Lab is fun to do... but it is horribly horribly designed. I would rather have a 10% drop rate and it be repeatable then have a 100% droprate and it force me to screw over some of my members who had to get on late or miss a day due to rl. This is a prime example of using lockouts to extend content instead of drop rates. This is a mmo a guild should always be better then a strict lowman static group. The devs would be good to remember that.

Baha lab while challenging and fun to do, fails as an endgame event in a group based mmo.

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Originally Posted by Kanzer

Don't see the problem. In my FC we have three individual groups progressing in coil. Try finding a free company or forming your own group maybe? Trust me, it's more satisfying to do the fights with people who haven't done it before, so you have to learn together. It's a great bonding experience.

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Just because it's smooth in your world, doesn't mean it's as easy for everyone else.

Would it -really- affect you in anyway if you could repeat the turns but for no chance at getting gear?

Every MMO does that, whether it's called a "lock" or "save" or whatever. It's just a way to limit access to content, both in terms of loot and strategy/training. That's just the way it is.

What players do is indeed form groups, more or less stable from a run to another (called "rosters" in the MMO slang), and work on a weekly basis with that. I have yet to see another way of implementing high-level raids. I'm sure there could be some creative alternatives that could be thought of, but simply removing the restriction isn't one; also the idea of giving loot to some but not others is not viable since:
- not everything is linked to a character, a FC could then just rotate non-locked players to grab crafting mats and the likes;
- when players get loot they get stronger, thus the boss they just killed become easier in a way to kill again, and that's why they have to wait for a week in order to be able to do it again (otherwise within the course of a week each run might get easier);
- it would be pretty complicated to run checks on every player all the time etc,; think about server-side resources and possible abuse;
- there would be countless ways to abuse a non-limited access, as already pointed out in this short thread.

It's pretty much the same concept as "caps" (mythology tomes), every MMO must "gate" and "restrict access" to High-Level content in a form or another in order to prevent players off rushing through content too fast (specifically to give enough time to developers to make new content). Also, the concept of rarity in itself is a strong incentive to stay subbed, which is the basis of the business model chosen for FF XIV. You must think too about the pressure that would be put on players if they could run a raid without limitation: some FCs would then ask their players to run it everyday for other members, that could get ugly. All these restrictions have a history, thus a reason to exist, and have been tested for years now in several titles; and unless one can come up with another system that addresses these many issues, I don't see them going away.

And I'm pretty sure MMO raiding players are fine and accustomed with the current system in their vast majority.

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Originally Posted by Dorfentyme

Just because it's smooth in your world, doesn't mean it's as easy for everyone else.

Would it -really- affect you in anyway if you could repeat the turns but for no chance at getting gear?

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I already pointed out people would do the 7 alts 1 main thing to gear up their group super fast, if you are allowed to help other people do the zone. The first 4 turns of coil are really easy once you know the fights.

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Originally Posted by CrstyCaptin

I see the need for a lock out but it should only be for a day. Like OP said, you're forced to find a group and stick to it. Really hurts players trying to get into coil because of premades. If you complete a turn then are just locked out for the next day it's not a big deal.

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I don't think the system hurts anyone. Hell, thanks to the system, I was able to play coil turn 2 without ever having beat turn 1.

They want you to only be able to clear each section once a week. The only adjustment i could see being made is letting pepole who DIDN'T clear a previous section go back to it.

(e.g., I skipped turn 1, but couldn't go back to it until the reset. It would have been nice for me to be able to go back and clear turn 1 with other people who were also on turn 1)

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Originally Posted by Dorfentyme

Just because it's smooth in your world, doesn't mean it's as easy for everyone else.

Would it -really- affect you in anyway if you could repeat the turns but for no chance at getting gear?

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You seem to think it's 'smooth in my world' simply because I'm lucky. I've been with this group of people for over eight years, and when I first joined them in WoW eight years ago I didn't have everything handed to me. I earned my place in their ranks, just as I do now, just as everyone else does.

There's nothing stopping you from finding a good free company to raid with or starting your own group. Your problem is you don't want to put in the effort.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

I don't think the system hurts anyone. Hell, thanks to the system, I was able to play coil turn 2 without ever having beat turn 1.

They want you to only be able to clear each section once a week. The only adjustment i could see being made is letting pepole who DIDN'T clear a previous section go back to it.

(e.g., I skipped turn 1, but couldn't go back to it until the reset. It would have been nice for me to be able to go back and clear turn 1 with other people who were also on turn 1)

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I just don't like the restrictive nature of it. You should be able to do a turn twice a week. As it stands now you have your 8 people you go with and you can only complete a turn once per week. If you skip a turn you can't go back and complete it. If someone new wants to run it they can't because you're stuck with your 8 man premade. I get this is standard of MMO's but it just doesn't seem to flow with the way FFXIV is right now.

The real problem with coil right now isn't coil itself, but lack of end game content. There is no 8 man 1.0 CC/AV raids at the moment. It's either Coil or Primals, but primal weapons are fairly useless considering how easy it is to obtain a "relic."

So basically the only thing large groups can do right now is segment down into statics, and then go on hiatus for a week. Amdapor and Praetorium are not Free Company events. Crystal Tower (or should I say Casual Tower?) may alleviate the situation a bit, but there needs to be more 8 man dungeons without lockouts.

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Originally Posted by Kanzer

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Good job assuming that its ME that is having the issues. I was just agreeing with the guy that I take no issue with being able to repeat Coil in exchange for no loot. My FC and LS are just fine and I don't have problem progressing in endgames in any MMO.

You seem very serious business with the whole "I earned my place in their ranks". Geez guy, it's a game. Get a grip.

I think that "well its always been this way in MMOs" is a bad argument. Yes, it HAS always been that way. Doesn't mean it can't CHANGE though. Game's don't have to copy each other 100%.

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Originally Posted by Dorfentyme

Good job assuming that its ME that is having the issues. I was just agreeing with the guy that I take no issue with being able to repeat Coil in exchange for no loot. My FC and LS are just fine and I don't have problem progressing in endgames in any MMO.

You seem very serious business with the whole "I earned my place in their ranks". Geez guy, it's a game. Get a grip.

I think that "well its always been this way in MMOs" is a bad argument. Yes, it HAS always been that way. Doesn't mean it can't CHANGE though. Game's don't have to copy each other 100%.

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Except that it's not that way in every MMO. It 'used' to be that way in WoW but with how it is currently everyone can see everything the instant it comes out. It completely ruins the immersion and mystique of end game.

I for one am glad that SE hasn't 'copied' their system in this regard.

And get a grip? Of what? It's wrong or misguided somehow to feel proud of what I've accomplished with my friends? Maybe you should get a grip. It's a good thing, not a bad thing. If you don't have the same goals then there's plenty of content for you to enjoy. No need to take away what others find enjoyable because you won't see the content right away.

As content is released, Yoshi-P has already said the previous content will become easier to clear for those who were unable to do so before, while those who are will continue progressing in the new stuff. I'm fine with that, it's how it should be.

If I understand correctly, then yes please.


I find this system incredibly annoying. It forces you to divide your FC, and since perfect numbers are rare people are often left out and hurt.

How to ensure extra items are not generated requires a bit more thought though.

If you make it so those who have rolled before cant again then the guild could just organizing for you to roll solo on the piece you want and win one piece a week for each person. Similar if you just let those who haven't gone before roll (first core people couldn't get one piece a week but everyone else could).

You could make it so if you are doing a repeat run the rewards are tome stones, which I think would be fine- but then you may have a problem where you go do coil thinking everyone is new but one person isn't and the reward is messed up.

You can change the loot system to tokens or by not 100%- this could work well. Then you could take an above idea and mix it easily in with this:


Every week your first run on each turn will earn you a token, higher turns earn more, after your first run you will earn stones or other things unrelated to the main focus (instead of BiS gear, get things like stones, housing items, vanity, and such like that).


But please SE, these caps and locks- I hope you can revisit them in a way that doesn't punish teamwork and a FC working as a happy unit. (Content seems excelent if you only had 7 friends that wanted to do it, and only 7, but terrible otherwise)

So. Okay. While I may never get to coil, and so can't speak personally, I like to replay dungeons. I don't care about the gear. It is just for fun. So from that standpoint, yeah, it bothers me that this end game dungeon is designed this way. It detracts from the fun, which is in the challenge of trying (and maybe failing) to win, not in the never ending grind for gear. If the design is based solely around getting gear/stuff, and that is the only purpose, thus you can only play only once.. That bothers me. So I am all for an equipment cap, just like there is a tomestone cap, instead of a straight up lockout. But yeah.. Anyway. Just my opinion..

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Originally Posted by CrstyCaptin

I see the need for a lock out but it should only be for a day. Like OP said, you're forced to find a group and stick to it. Really hurts players trying to get into coil because of premades. If you complete a turn then are just locked out for the next day it's not a big deal.

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Coil is a raid; this is how raids work. It's supposed to be challenging to complete and something you can't farm continuously. Allowing someone to reset their lockout but simply be unable to roll on loot would mean FCs would simply funnel gear into individual players, and that's not how the progression was designed to function.

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Originally Posted by Xatsh

The issue with this is 2 fold.

1) It is purely designed for static groups. So the design itself is hurting endgame guilds really badly. People are forced to fragment their groups into smaller sections and it forces you not to be able to help others at all.
2) It drops best in slot gear... so even with alliance content coming out it is still not helping that the best gear in the game you cannot do well as a guild.

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I'm not sure what MMOs you've been playing, but the best gear is generally always only available to people who have static groups. You're not supposed to just be able to PUG whatever the hell you want.

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Originally Posted by Naunet

I'm not sure what MMOs you've been playing, but the best gear is generally always only available to people who have static groups. You're not supposed to just be able to PUG whatever the hell you want.

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Think you missed his point. He means the exact same 8 people, if you have a 9th friend, someone will ALWAYS be left out. You either have to tell your friend he's SoL, or you rotate people, slowing down progress. FCs/Guilds and such don't always come in even sets of 8 or 24 and so on.

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Originally Posted by Rivienne

So. Okay. While I may never get to coil, and so can't speak personally, I like to replay dungeons. I don't care about the gear. It is just for fun. So from that standpoint, yeah, it bothers me that this end game dungeon is designed this way. It detracts from the fun, which is in the challenge of trying (and maybe failing) to win, not in the never ending grind for gear. If the design is based solely around getting gear/stuff, and that is the only purpose, thus you can only play only once.. That bothers me. So I am all for an equipment cap, just like there is a tomestone cap, instead of a straight up lockout. But yeah.. Anyway. Just my opinion..

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You can replay them. You just can't go back to an earlier segment of the Coil until the weekly raid/tomestone reset.

Also the drops from each section don't seem entirely fixed. You'd think stuff like the allagan body armors etc. would be reserved for turn 5, but they're not, from what I've heard. I've only seen turn 1 and turn 2 myself though, so I can't speak much for that.

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Originally Posted by ispano

Think you missed his point. He means the exact same 8 people, if you have a 9th friend, someone will ALWAYS be left out. You either have to tell your friend he's SoL, or you rotate people, slowing down progress. FCs/Guilds and such don't always come in even sets of 8 or 24 and so on.

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This is something raiding groups have been dealing with for... a decade, if not more. It's just how things are. Either you rotate people in and out, or you try and gather folk for a second group so you don't have an odd number.

signed

yoshida should just grab more good stuff from wow and dump the bad.

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Originally Posted by Kanzer

Except that it's not that way in every MMO. It 'used' to be that way in WoW but with how it is currently everyone can see everything the instant it comes out. It completely ruins the immersion and mystique of end game.

I for one am glad that SE hasn't 'copied' their system in this regard.

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I'm not sure what any of this has to do with anything that we were talking about...did you just change topics or something?

For clarification:
I was discussing that most MMOs have raid lockout timers. And that it wouldn't be a BAD thing if you allowed someone to go into the raid again(before the lockout) to help clear it with friends(but not get any loot). How does that have to do with what you're talking about in the message I quoted?

You don't have to go back to help people, you can bring people forward to whatever turn you are on. Just rotate people in if you are worried about fairness.

I asked for this back in FF11. It was such a frustrating situation with asking if anyone wanted to go do Assault and hearing "Sorry, I got no tags". So back then I suggested that you get progress/drops if you HAVE a tag, else you just help someone else out.

Which is pretty much the same thing as is suggested here again. Clearly many people like to play MMOs TOGETHER so why is there still content that has focus on keeping people left out of content?

You should always have the option to redo things for your friends. Else you may as well swap to single player endgame content so that we all can enjoy it equally.

I disagree. You could be carried by 7 people and give that 8th all the loot. Its not exactly.. "fair". Full week lockouts are fine. In WOW for instance, you run it you cant run it again till reset. It is working as intended

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Originally Posted by Naunet

This is something raiding groups have been dealing with for... a decade, if not more. It's just how things are. Either you rotate people in and out, or you try and gather folk for a second group so you don't have an odd number.

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Annnd I know this first hand, just the response you gave showed that you didn't get his point.

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Originally Posted by DJPr3tty

I disagree. You could be carried by 7 people and give that 8th all the loot. Its not exactly.. "fair". Full week lockouts are fine. In WOW for instance, you run it you cant run it again till reset. It is working as intended

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yeah the current system is doing what it needs (stop too much gear from spawning)

Better systems can be divined.. Working as intended but rather not see this precise system working at all (like discussing fatigue vs other possible choices, fatigue works to what it needs to do.. but it also sucks lol).

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Originally Posted by Naunet

This is something raiding groups have been dealing with for... a decade, if not more. It's just how things are.

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Utter stupidity to accept a problem so simple as reality.

The solution to this problem is to remove or reduce repeat run restrictions and dramatically drop the drop rates of the high level gear from completing the raids. This reintroduces the fun of RNG loot drops that is pretty absent from this game without making each completion of the dungeon guaranteed to make your next run easier.

This would make static groups exist purely as a refuge for people to raid with friends rather than an elitist group for designed to prevent the community from intermingling etc.
It is better for the best players to be facing a statistical improbability of getting every best in slot item as a result of RNG than to face the certainty of being unable to get every piece for months on end due to hard caps.

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Originally Posted by DunamisBlack

It is better for the best players to be facing a statistical improbability of getting every best in slot item as a result of RNG than to face the certainty of being unable to get every piece for months on end due to hard caps.

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I'll take definitely being able to reap rewards for my efforts over a longer period of time over possibly never seeing a reward any day. More RNG is not the answer. I'm not "accepting" a problem, because I don't see it as a problem.

If they limited the amount of loot you're allowed to roll on per week I think it would be leaps and bounds better.

My friends and I came over from SW:TOR. Our guild there is a competitive PvE endgame progressing one, so we are a tight knit group. At the moment, our core group consists of nine people here. :( We've been rotating members for coil...it kind of sucks. For whatever crazy reason, when I first started playing this game, I didn't think there was dungeon lockouts and that really made me excited.

The game rewards you for using one character for all classes, but you get locked out of coil after only using one. I get it, it's like every other MMO; the lockout is there to slow down progression, but I thought SE was more creative than that.

And no, I wont just ditch my friends for another group. It's simply NOT an option for me until/if our FC expands.

I'd be fine with them removing the lockout but eliminating any gear drops if anyone has progressed past that point in the week, and keeping the myth reward. That way we can still practice with and include people whose schedules don't line up perfectly and there is some incentive to repeat a turn (not having to do any AK or WP for Myth). The bonus is that the people that have weird schedules are usually the ones that have less time anyway so them having more outlets for Myth that take less time would be appreciated.

That or letting us pick which turn to go to if all members have cleared up to that turn before, and locking you out of only that turn, that way you can pick and choose runs for gear that specific people want/need.

The people that keep posting this insane suggestion have no idea how it would completely break endgame.

The solution to the OP's problem is to kick two people out of your FC, or use them as alternates in case someone cannot make it to raid.

Just like to point out that you never saw this topic pop up until the casuals started entering Binding Coil in the past month or so.

When you consider that there will not be any content beyond turn 5 for at least 4 month, you can understand why the lock out is so strict.

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Originally Posted by Dorfentyme

He's asking for you to be able to repeat the turn with your friends, but not get loot if you're repeating it. I don't see anything unreasonable about it. If you complete it, you should be able to repeat it just not for anymore loot. This way if you have 11 dedicated FC members playing, everyone can have their turn to get it done.

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This may be a great idea but let's be honest how many player's will really go back and help YOU if they cant get loot? After its all said than done maybe 1% will do it to help you with no loot.

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Originally Posted by Maxthunder

This may be a great idea but let's be honest how many player's will really go back and help YOU if they cant get loot? After its all said than done maybe 1% will do it to help you with no loot.

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I know more than a few people that would as it would help cap myth and is infinitely more fun than WP/AK.

Also, I dunno, FC camaraderie and experiencing stuff together for the fun of it. Crazy things like that.