Patch 2.1 - Leaving Group Penalty

This needs to be discussed as it has become a plague on servers and will only worsen the longer it is allowed to happen.

Players with zealous and elitist attitudes are consistently if not commonly leaving PRIMAL encounters because of a single wipe, and on top of that, many of these individuals being tanks are allowed to queue immediately and get back into the encounter with VERY LITTLE wait time, if any at all.

Scenario Example: Encounter starts. Tank asks if anyone is new, 4 people say yes, tanks leaves. Now all the spa have to wait 30-60 min to re-queue while the tank only waits 10-15 min IF the Duty Finder makes him/her. If it doesn't they only wait 1-2 minutes and they're back in it again.

This is absolutely unfair to people who are learning these encounters. Now I know that a lot of you will say "Well do them with your Free Company or people on your World", but need I remind you that there ARE players who are very ahead of their own Free Companies for whatever reason and no self-glorifying FC is going to bring an outsider into their run unless it's absolutely necessary making the occasion very rare, so how else are us "new players" supposed to learn content when individuals like the above scenario are allowed to ditch us whenever they please without consequence?

There needs to be a penalty in place for players like this. I CANNOT STRESS THIS ENOUGH. I tried to be patient telling myself the issue would resolve itself but I'm done being quiet about it. Don't tell me to go role a tank, don't tell me to wait for my FC, don't tell me you're thinking about it, I want to KNOW and I'm sure other Damage Dealer Classes want to KNOW that something is going to be out in place to penalize players for leaving within the first 5-10 minutes of an encounter be it because of a wipe, or them feeling as though they can leave and re-queue instantly.

Ideas of penalties:
- 30 min wait before requeue
- less prioritization when queuing
- all armor broken upon leaving
- a fee of 5,000-10,000 Gil
- stat decrease on all classes (30 min)
- unable to leave current city or town (30 min)

Those are just examples of the price people should have to pay when they waste everyone else's time by queuing for something everybody needs and then leaving immediately because things aren't going their way.

This breed of players who believe they are above everyone because they've done an encounter more than others and have more knowledge of the fight are the ones that should be told to run it with their FC, not us individuals who see the duty finder for what it is: a system to queue for encounters and get the job done.

Call this a rant but I call it an obvious idea of what needs to be done.

The 15minutes are already too much, joining Titan everyday through duty finder with tanks below 5k hp (even though the boss crits above 5k) and dps doing less dmg than I do in healing gear....why do I need to waste my time if people are joining a gearcheck fight completly undergeared not even able reading a single guide or watch a video?

You act as if EVERYBODY you encounter hasn't watched a video or doesn't know about what gear is needed for certain fights. I have news for you, some of us actually DO watch videos and some us actually WONT queue or a fight if we know we can't do it yet.

A required gear check in the duty finder is a side-problem when it is measured up against people who won't even give the encounter a shot because someone in the group is new. That is the behavior that needs to be penalized either BEFORE or WITH a gear requirement.

A 15 minute wait time is enough. You're mad about it, okay, but you know that the options you're suggesting are pretty extreme, right? For instance, I left a Brayflox run found through the DF last night because I, as a healer, was unable to keep my party healed through the very first boss of the instance, where we wiped. It was obvious that they were either undergeared or underperforming, or both. Should I have stayed and struggled through, even though it was clear that if I did it would just be a huge extra amount of work for me, and that we would almost certainly wipe on the final boss? Did I deserve all my armor to be broken, or a 5-10k fee, or being "unable to leave" my "current city or town"?

The current system is fine. Maybe if a particular player leaves MULTIPLE groups within an hour, or another set amount of time, they could have the cooldown timer on the DF grow. That's about the only penalty I would be able to agree with.

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Originally Posted by xSinful_Snake

You act as if EVERYBODY you encounter hasn't watched a video or doesn't know about what gear is needed for certain fights. I have news for you, some of us actually DO watch videos and some us actually WONT queue or a fight if we know we can't do it yet.

A required gear check in the duty finder is a side-problem when it is measured up against people who won't even give the encounter a shot because someone in the group is new. That is the behavior that needs to be penalized either BEFORE or WITH a gear requirement.

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This points out the flaw in the way the game currently works. On the one hand we have a very easy and intuitive 'action'(hest,dungeon,primal etc,.)duty group finder that allows you to join events hassle free. Yet the actual encounters require such a narrow band of participants (because of gear, not skill or knowledge), that it is contrary to the style of the duty finder and the game in of itself.

You can't expect hardcore to work with a duty finder - it never has and it certainly won't start with this game.
This is probably why people suggest that you cherry pick or hand pick your group(s) as at least you can trust them.

On the other hand again, the game is too laid back for 49 levels then BAM shit hits the fan and you can't get anything done because you don't have the gear. Chicken and egg scenarios in MMORPGs can ruin end games.

Rather than punish individual culprits (and by extension innocent players), they should fix the mechanics to not create situation where this is a big problem to begin with. What we absolutely do not want, is limits on dungeons and other events. Time penalties and lock out timers are AWFUL and turn end-games into nothing but micro managed chores sucking all the life out of the game.

Ultimately the difference between the way you suggest it and the way it works now is that your wanting to impose a synthetic time penalty and currently you suffer an organic one which over time works itself out.

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Originally Posted by xSinful_Snake

Players with zealous and elitist attitudes are consistently if not commonly leaving PRIMAL encounters because of a single wipe, and on top of that, many of these individuals being tanks are allowed to queue immediately and get back into the encounter with VERY LITTLE wait time, if any at all.

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People are elitist? Color me shocked :/

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Originally Posted by GGprime

The 15minutes are already too much, joining Titan everyday through duty finder with tanks below 5k hp (even though the boss crits above 5k) and dps doing less dmg than I do in healing gear....why do I need to waste my time if people are joining a gearcheck fight completly undergeared not even able reading a single guide or watch a video?

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Then you're part of the problem. Form a party on your server and go spank Titan instead of trolling people.

There is no such thing as a gearcheck fight. If you are under-geared for a fight, that should be something you experience, and then come back to. It should not be left to trolls who join and leave, or join and do nothing.

Here's my suggestion:
Every time you leave a fight, add a permanent requeue penalty that ticks down only after successfully completing the dungeon. So if you leave two consecutive fights, you now have to wait at least 30 minutes before being requeued for all dungeons on that class. This should also apply to joining parties in the field.

How to make everyone happy:
a) Make a "X wishes to withdraw" prompt, which results in the entire party leaving the instance if all players agree. This will not result in a penalty.
b) Make a "X wishes to replace Y" prompt, which results in T being kicked only if there is a replacement waiting. Y will not get a penalty.

Related issue: People who join and do nothing is solved with B, but this should be controlled by the instance, whereby if the player is not in the boss room they will be automatically kicked if the boss is defeated without them.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

If you are under-geared for a fight, that should be something you experience, and then come back to. It should not be left to trolls who join and leave, or join and do nothing.

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Here's the thing: if you or multiple people are under-geared you're going to cause your party to wipe, which, really, is wasting everyone's time. What is an individual player who is properly geared and properly prepared for the fight supposed to do? Keep trying (and wiping) with the undergeared players until the timer runs out? It's easier and takes less time - for everyone involved - for people to just leave.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

This should also apply to joining parties in the field.

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And that's totally insane.

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Originally Posted by Ranebow

This points out the flaw in the way the game currently works. On the one hand we have a very easy and intuitive 'action'(hest,dungeon,primal etc,.)duty group finder that allows you to join events hassle free. Yet the actual encounters require such a narrow band of participants (because of gear, not skill or knowledge), that it is contrary to the style of the duty finder and the game in of itself.

You can't expect hardcore to work with a duty finder - it never has and it certainly won't start with this game.
This is probably why people suggest that you cherry pick or hand pick your group(s) as at least you can trust them.

On the other hand again, the game is too laid back for 49 levels then BAM shit hits the fan and you can't get anything done because you don't have the gear. Chicken and egg scenarios in MMORPGs can ruin end games.

Rather than punish individual culprits (and by extension innocent players), they should fix the mechanics to not create situation where this is a big problem to begin with. What we absolutely do not want, is limits on dungeons and other events. Time penalties and lock out timers are AWFUL and turn end-games into nothing but micro managed chores sucking all the life out of the game.

Ultimately the difference between the way you suggest it and the way it works now is that your wanting to impose a synthetic time penalty and currently you suffer an organic one which over time works itself out.

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You make an excellent point. While I agree that though my penalties would be a bit extreme, some players are deserving of them, though perhaps as Ufufu suggested, for repeat offenders only.

That being said and taking what you say into consideration, there needs to be more endgame content in regards to more level 50 dungeons that allow players to gear up for these gear-checking encounters like Titan [Hard Mode]. All anyone is able to do right now is Amdapor Keep and The Wanderer's Palace without having to step into an 8-Man Raid. While the 8-Man Raids like Castrum Meridianium and The Praetorium can be exciting, it is only for so long before they become tedious as there are many cut scenes and many scenarios (which leads to individuals being left behind because they want to enjoy the storyline).

If you expect individuals to be READY gear-wise for Titan-HM then you shouldn't allow players to obtain the quest until they meet the gear requirements. If a level requirement can lock an individual from accepting a quest, why wasn't a gear check implimented if the developers KNEW for a fact that players in Titan would NEED a certain amount of HP to live through his unavoidable attacks.

It's because of that all-too common "we didn't expect this" attitude that players like myself are having to deal with this constant issue.

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Originally Posted by Ranebow

This points out the flaw in the way the game currently works. On the one hand we have a very easy and intuitive 'action'(hest,dungeon,primal etc,.)duty group finder that allows you to join events hassle free. Yet the actual encounters require such a narrow band of participants (because of gear, not skill or knowledge), that it is contrary to the style of the duty finder and the game in of itself.

You can't expect hardcore to work with a duty finder - it never has and it certainly won't start with this game.
This is probably why people suggest that you cherry pick or hand pick your group(s) as at least you can trust them.

On the other hand again, the game is too laid back for 49 levels then BAM shit hits the fan and you can't get anything done because you don't have the gear. Chicken and egg scenarios in MMORPGs can ruin end games.

Rather than punish individual culprits (and by extension innocent players), they should fix the mechanics to not create situation where this is a big problem to begin with. What we absolutely do not want, is limits on dungeons and other events. Time penalties and lock out timers are AWFUL and turn end-games into nothing but micro managed chores sucking all the life out of the game.

Ultimately the difference between the way you suggest it and the way it works now is that your wanting to impose a synthetic time penalty and currently you suffer an organic one which over time works itself out.

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SE's answer is the iLVL check prior to entering instances. That isn't going to stop someone from leaving because there are new people. Hardmode is easily puggable. Making sure people are geared enough to enter is the hard part. Through DF at least.

Bonus % tomes for clearing dungeon from start to finish.
Penalty % for leaving early.

Problem solved.

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Originally Posted by Truedragon

Bonus % tomes for clearing dungeon from start to finish.
Penalty % for leaving early.

Problem solved.

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% Bonus tomes for each additional new member you pull through.

Encourage and reward good play; they already notified the party when a new player has joined so it's not hard to check and apply the bonus.

Ok wiping on ifrit is just pathetic I have seen it done by 7 people all fresh original AF gear. I'm sorry if people don't look into boss fights like these via the wiki or youtube but some people myself included hate spending a hour on what should be a 20 minute fight. Being new and just completely unprepared are different and it's normally unprepared people that makes us leave. It's not elitist it's just not enjoying wasting time with repeated deaths or just not having time for teaching the fight at the moment.

Easy solution, roll a tank, cry less, profit!


how on earth is this a technical support issue?

Required average iLvL > more punishments. If its still an issue after the fact then implement a punishment but until that requirement is implemented I don't think there should be a punishment.

Now to all the people complaining about people not knowing how to do it when they go in thats another story. Get over it and explain things? Wiping once or twice on Hardmode because a player is new to the instance should not be cause to leave. If it happens somewhere around 4-5 then it would feel more acceptable but once or twice is a get over yourself moment.

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Originally Posted by ufufu

Here's the thing: if you or multiple people are under-geared you're going to cause your party to wipe, which, really, is wasting everyone's time. What is an individual player who is properly geared and properly prepared for the fight supposed to do? Keep trying (and wiping) with the undergeared players until the timer runs out? It's easier and takes less time - for everyone involved - for people to just leave.

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That is not your responsibility as the tank. Your responsibility as the tank is to prevent the other players from taking damage. The only person that needs a "gear check" is the tank. If the rest of the players are under-geared you're not going to solve it by leaving and rejoining. How are people supposed to get the gear if you keep abandoning them in the first place?

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Originally Posted by Blazn

Ok wiping on ifrit is just pathetic I have seen it done by 7 people all fresh original AF gear. I'm sorry if people don't look into boss fights like these via the wiki or youtube but some people myself included hate spending a hour on what should be a 20 minute fight. Being new and just completely unprepared are different and it's normally unprepared people that makes us leave. It's not elitist it's just not enjoying wasting time with repeated deaths or just not having time for teaching the fight at the moment.

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The Primal fights are different. If you can't win, then you're not prepared.
The following things should not be required to play a game:
a) Strategy guides
b) Wiki's
c) youtube
d) google/bing/etc

Everything you need to play the game should be provided by the game's content. Nowhere in the game does it say you can only play a Primal by having all your gear crafted/materia or Unique/materia upgraded. If such were required, then the game would simply not allow you to join in the first place. You can in theory join a dungeon with no gear but your weapon, but you're unlikely to complete it. Gear is not taken into consideration when doing dungeon instances or FATE's. You do realize that the game not only Sync's your level, but it syncs your gear too right? There's no point in trying to go in over-geared when the game doesn't permit you to.

SE is already planning to address some of these issues. They will be implementing an equipment check for end game instances (Idk if for all or just for certain ones). You will have to meet a certain average equipment rating to qualify to enter the instance.

As for people going afk or quitting instances, there was some mention of an MVP award to encourage full participation. There are not many details about that one.

For people who leave because they don't like first timers, what I think would be the best idea is you have a lockout penalty equal to the average time it takes to clear the instance, so a person would not benefit from leaving. You would trigger the lockout by clicking "leave". If you get a network disconnect or something, the lockout would not apply.

Really the real annoying one is when someone refuses to move until SOMEONE leaves first. So say you have your run-of-the-mill elitist tank who looks at everyones gear and says "F this, I'm not moving until some of you leave". This usually ends in everyone waiting 5 - 10 minutes until someone starts repeat wiping the group with the boss until someone leaves.

While I don't think it's very nice, I don't blame people who wish to save time running with others who already know what to do.

In the case of Amdapor Keep.. the fights are really easy and can be explained quickly. You don't need special gear. However, I have been subjected to my TANK having all level 20 gear except for his job pieces. I do not feel like I should be severely penalized if I left because I don't want to waste my time playing with a tank who can't bother to get any gear over 30 levels. I think a 15 minute wait (every time) is perfectly acceptable when another healer can be queued into the dungeon instantly.

The Primal bosses are a real issue, however. Players who left should be replaced with new playerrs instead of having to re-queue alone. I am not a DPS player, but I would imagine it's extremely frustrating to those who are.
Incoming gear checks will help with the people who are queuing in to difficult fights like Garuda and Titan without taking the time to collect any gear.

*IF YOU ARE QUEUEING FOR DUTY FINDER...*
You should expect that you are going to have new people in Duty Finder dungeons and that YES, they won't know the fights. YES, you will have to take the time explaining them. If you don't wish to spend your time helping others, compensating for bad play, or dealing with undergeared players - MAKE YOUR OWN GROUP!

I spent a total of 180 minutes teaching new players the Garuda fight. In the first group, everybody was new (myself included.. however I seen a guide before hand so I knew exactly what to do). The tank was so undergeared as well as not aware of his surroundings, we were dying to him standing in things that would either KO him instantly or bring him down to 5% life that he would die if I didn't preemptively send a heal. 90 minutes of that and the tank blamed me, while the DPS blamed the tank. Waste of time.

Second time, I was paired with a well prepared tank, and two DPS who were french (and new). Attempting to explain the encounter to them resulted in frustration, and roughly an entire instance timer worth of dying. Another waste of time.

So while I'm all for helping people through new encounters if needed, I don't see how it's hard to look up primal battles beforehand to make your team work.

It was like yesterday when I was paired with a DPS using the german (?) client, a dps using a french client and a Japanese tank for Dzemael (or whatever it is spelled). Luckily Japanese is my first language and I was able to explain encounters to him, but I had a heck of a time trying to keep DPS up because they couldn't understand to stay in purple for the protect buff and I ended up just leaving.

Yes, it did suck that I had to wait 15 minutes, but I understood why. Otherwise I would have banged my head against the wall for another 90 minutes.

(On a different matter. I don't understand why I get duty finder'ed with German and French players when I've only Japanese and English selected.)

Anyways, I don't like any of the punishments the OP suggested. If anything, put the ilvl requirement in for primals (or I suppose dungeons as well) and just be patient and explain to newcomers how to do it. Remember, we were all new once :)

How is it a waste of time when you are playing the dungeon. You are expecting everything to go 100% by the book and getting instant wins so you can farm.

In reality, it doesn't work that way.

And by leaving early and portraying elitist attitude, you are making the problem worse.

Dying is part of the dungeon experience. Everyone died the first time. Including relic wielders.

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Originally Posted by Truedragon

And by leaving early and portraying elitist attitude, you are making the problem worse.

Dying is part of the dungeon experience. Everyone died the first time. Including relic wielders.

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Dying is part of the dungeon experience, correct. Every one of us have died in dungeons many times I'm sure. However, is dying 20 times to the same boss because someone decides they don't 'feel' like moving out of stuff or attacking adds, is that part of the experience too? What part does it get acceptable to just move on? Or is every single player expected to spend their 90 minutes of play time to stick it out and die to the same boss over and over because of one player's incompetence?

I was new once like everyone else, and yeah I made mistakes like everyone else. Not to the extent of causing my group to waste 90 minutes of their time on a boss. I don't think it's elitist at all to ask players to give it their best and not to be lazy so everyone has a good duty finder experience. And if they are selfish and ignore your request, to save yourself some time by leaving.

15 min is a good enough penalty. There are some groups that are hopeless for example HM Titan where you have people using white weapons and 20-30 accessories with AF gear. It's not being elitist if you have couple people like that on Titan HM there is no way mathematically you can win and people just don't want to spend time on it so they leave.

I don't remember my copy of FFXIV:ARR saying the following on the box:
"*Must have Youtube, Google, or Wiki Access in order to progress in game"

And I'm quite sure the individual who made the Youtube videos these elitist hold so graciously upon a pedestal were once new to the dungeon too and before they could confidently record their "easy" kill, they had died about 20 or so times themselves at one point. Practice makes perfect, not chance makes perfect.

If you don't have time to waste attempting a Primal encounter or a dungeon with random players that 60% of the time will contain new first-timers then why aren't you making a group run with individuals on your own server at scheduled times or even just with individuals you meet in chat that KNOW the fight?

You tanks blame us for not watching the video and not being as knowledgeable as you, but you continue to play in the duty finder where you know is the only place us players who don't have Free Companies or friends to play with are able to go in order to get some progression done on OUR schedule.

And because we have a different schedule than you, you call us names like "noobs" or "casuals" or "idiots" and worse. You say you don't have time to teach or us "carry" us, then don't queue with us in the first place, and don't insult us when you leave because all you're doing is breeding hatred as the norm for the community and I'm sure that isn't what any of us want.

Go ahead, slap a Gear-Checker on the Duty Finder, then you'll just have the problem of complaining when people HAVE the gear and yet still haven't done the fight before and tanks will leave again, or they'll do one attempt and because of one person's mistake, they'll bash players and leave anyways.

So yea, I do believe penalties need to be in place. I think the only people that aren't supporting the idea are the people that are already doing the "leaving" and just want to keep being able to do so, when in reality all they really need to do is just do dungeons with their own FC's or with their pick-up groups and let us players who want to utilize duty finder and don't mind wiping 5 or 6 times before we discuss giving up.

And as for Square, don't think you don't have a hand in the current rage that is swamping the Duty Finder community. Why aren't people allowed to join Primal encounters after someone leaves. You can't say it's the Time Limit, because even regular dungeons have time-limits. So why exactly don't you allow people to join in when someone leaves? Why do we all have to lose out and wait in a queue for 30-60 minutes because a tank or healer, or sometimes even a damage dealer didn't believe they needed to "waste" their time with us?

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Originally Posted by landua

*IF YOU ARE QUEUEING FOR DUTY FINDER...*
You should expect that you are going to have new people in Duty Finder dungeons and that YES, they won't know the fights. YES, you will have to take the time explaining them. If you don't wish to spend your time helping others, compensating for bad play, or dealing with undergeared players - MAKE YOUR OWN GROUP!

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EXACTLY! Duty finder is there so that people who don't have their own crew or FC members to help them, can run a dungeon. At the start, if a message pops up saying that some party members are new to this dungeon, I tell them what is coming up and what to do. If I'm new to a dungeon, I ask right away what is coming up, and what I should focus on. (I'm a BLM)

I don't want to read a walk through or watch a video of a dungeon before I go into it because that totally destroys the fun of discovery.

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Originally Posted by Blazn

. I'm sorry if people don't look into boss fights like these via the wiki or youtube but some people myself included hate spending a hour on what should be a 20 minute fight.

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Stop you right there. You play the cheat card. You're asking people to spoil/cheat the game without even trying.

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Originally Posted by xSinful_Snake

And as for Square, don't think you don't have a hand in the current rage that is swamping the Duty Finder community. Why aren't people allowed to join Primal encounters after someone leaves. You can't say it's the Time Limit, because even regular dungeons have time-limits. So why exactly don't you allow people to join in when someone leaves? Why do we all have to lose out and wait in a queue for 30-60 minutes because a tank or healer, or sometimes even a damage dealer didn't believe they needed to "waste" their time with us?

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I have my conjurer class up to level 27 from DF alone. Each Duty about 4 times. When I only do the dungeons new as DPS. When I do it as Healer I can easily tell who's underequipped/newbie because they lose HP so fast that I can't heal them. It takes 4 "cure" or 8 "medica" to heal a tank that has 1000hp at level 7. Neither of these cast instantly. Let the healer sleep a monster if you're dieing too fast, but we can't do that either if you don't put signs on them.

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Originally Posted by Bahd_Monkey

EXACTLY! Duty finder is there so that people who don't have their own crew or FC members to help them, can run a dungeon. At the start, if a message pops up saying that some party members are new to this dungeon, I tell them what is coming up and what to do. If I'm new to a dungeon, I ask right away what is coming up, and what I should focus on. (I'm a BLM)

I don't want to read a walk through or watch a video of a dungeon before I go into it because that totally destroys the fun of discovery.

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I don't mind explaining if the tank is new.

Good tanks mark the targets and then keep the enmity.

The funny thing about this last run I did in Haukke Manor, is that the party wiped out 4 times, and none of the wipes were at the boss. The tank didn't mark targets at all, and was losing HP so fast that I ran out of MP.

There is a 15 minute penalty and it's enough. iLvL gear check done by the game before being able to sign up is the best solution.

Afterall, primal battles cant have members added, so the one penalized should only be the guy leaving first as it is now. And for dungeons, they need to remove the optional "join party in progress" if they add more penalties, so people automatically gets pushed into groups in progress. If one member leaves, there really is no point in waiting for a new member as it currently works, especially if it's a healer or tank leaving, since both rarely check the box "in progress". Most heals and tanks dont want to join for a fail in progress. And if you sit and wait, you will have your time for completion consumed and you wont be in queue for a fresh run either.

I never leave first myself, unless it's a really horrible group that cant even handle the most simple things.

well on my sever in my fc my tank lvl 44 warrior and the other paladin tank we hit every one of or enmity builders and skill that build and the enimies just go flying past us to the other members even fc members that decided to help and the paladin in lvl 50 with all his af gear except a few things and he is doing hard mode to get the rest so i think there's problems in building enmity aka aggro

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Originally Posted by Ljonesj

well on my sever in my fc my tank lvl 44 warrior and the other paladin tank we hit every one of or enmity builders and skill that build and the enimies just go flying past us to the other members even fc members that decided to help and the paladin in lvl 50 with all his af gear except a few things and he is doing hard mode to get the rest so i think there's problems in building enmity aka aggro

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I'm sorry but I'm not quite sure how this contributes to the topic at hand, but aside from that, I too believe the enmity/aggro in this game is slightly defective in some manner that I can't quite put my finger on... it just seems broken at times, so much that I have to literally stop attacking as a damage dealer and just sit there until my enmity goes down.

well i figured were they are bashing tanks for not doing there jobs and holding the aggro and the healer leaves for or the tank leaves. i had a group were i tanked really great when no pets like the carbuncle were out. then i had another group were someone had the carbuncle out and i could not hold the aggro i asked him to put it up and he told me i could not do my job as the tank so yes i left but when u cant get to the first boss as constant wipes and also i got fed up once were i had to constantly run stone vigil i told one group what to do in the second boss fight and i marked, told them what to do stay out of the tornado and they just ingnored me. then trying to get to last boss cause i was trying to avoid a lot of the monsters but i had idiots pulling everything to me and i was overwhelmed and i had the healer tell me to do better i said stop pulling crap need to do this by logic

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Originally Posted by Ljonesj

well i figured were they are bashing tanks for not doing there jobs and holding the aggro and the healer leaves for or the tank leaves. i had a group were i tanked really great when no pets like the carbuncle were out. then i had another group were someone had the carbuncle out and i could not hold the aggro i asked him to put it up and he told me i could not do my job as the tank so yes i left but when u cant get to the first boss as constant wipes and also i got fed up once were i had to constantly run stone vigil i told one group what to do in the second boss fight and i marked, told them what to do stay out of the tornado and they just ingnored me. then trying to get to last boss cause i was trying to avoid a lot of the monsters but i had idiots pulling everything to me and i was overwhelmed and i had the healer tell me to do better i said stop pulling crap need to do this by logic

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Ljonesj, the example you just cave is the PERFECT example of when a "Vote-Kick" option needs to implemented. And because there isn't one, I understand why you'd leave. You have my complete agreement.

Right now i am on my alt archer character and i just ran a dungeon were the tank could not hold the aggro i was understanding as im in the same boat with my main. the healer of our group kept running ahead and attacking the enemies and wondering why the tank would not pull them back to her. i just stopped attacking when i saw i was pulling and ran to the tank to reacquire aggro don't blame some of the players for not doing there job it might be the others doing stupid things for them to leave but yes i agree with the some about the elitist attitude of some needs to go yes you may be better than some but stop it and help others to become good players and teach them how the game mechanics work its just a game its for entertainment. this is why i join small guilds who just like to do things slowly and learn and one reason on lamia i am creating my own fc and having divisions in it the raiding instance division run by the one sthat like that sort of thing and the others who need help with story thats my side even thou i will be in charge

Elitests are in all MMOs, I agree to an extent with this but only with the fact that people who don't want to play with new people should not use duty finder without a full group of their own. I personally only do high level content with my FC because I know we will clear things quick and efficiently. The only time I ever pug anything is for low level dungeons.

I can't say I agree with the increasing of the penalty for leaving because 15 minutes is more than enough. I am pretty sure a lot of problems could be fixed by people making friends really. This is an MMO so join a FC and do stuff with them especially for high level content because it will be a lot more enjoyable.