Have any warriors tanked HM titan/coil?

Succesfully?

I know of many that have tanked Titan, and outside of that... Coil is tough without the proper gear for it. It's roughly iLvl80 if I am remembering it correctly and Warriors are so gear dependant that it's making it difficult without full top end gear to work on those encounters.

Definitely need some Tweaking, but it's definitely possible, just not as easy as with a PLD.

So if both a paladin and a warrior have a full ilvl80 set the paladin will still be alot better?

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Originally Posted by Talongore

So if both a paladin and a warrior have a full ilvl80 set the paladin will still be alot better?

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Until we know what the gear sets look like, no one really knows the answer to that question. I hope they keep the two tanks different but both viable.

Good thread on Reddit. Apparently warriors are getting shafted. General consensus seems to be Paladins overtake Warriors at this level.

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Originally Posted by Kjersgaard

Good thread on Reddit. Apparently warriors are getting shafted. General consensus seems to be Paladins overtake Warriors at this level.

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Highest rated post in that reddit thread is this...

Rootzo said...

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I am a Warrior in Turn 4 of Bahamut's coil. I also have a paladin both of them are fully geared with Darklight (obviously) and both have relics. While warrior healing is more scary, the HP pool more than enough makes up for it. I have 5.6k buffed on my Paladin and 7.2k on my Warrior. I receive 15% more healing most of the time, since using your heal just won't cut it. If you bring a WHM and a Scholar, the WHM should focus heals on the Warrior and Scholar on the Paladin.

I agree for Paladins the 20% mitigation is amazing and ends up being about 1000 EHP + they have 2 damage reduction cooldowns, but warrior are definitly better at holding threat both single target and AOE and this is not a myth. It is a FACT.

In conclusion to have both tank is a good/better option but I do prefer the playstyle of warriors. Flash spamming for AOE threat + Circle of Skorn just isnt good enough at high levels of gear since Flash does NOT scale with gear.

And to all of those saying "Warrior tanks are so hard to heal on Titan" well I have to disagree. If you have a coordinated group, you know exactly when the big damage is coming on Titan and can predict his every move. Learn the encounter and both tanks will be as easy to heal.

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Seems to me it's fine... Warrior is harder to play which explains some of the problems people are having. Maybe it's a skill issue and the class design is being overplayed.

Except the vast majority of the thread agrees that warriors require substantially more healing and attention, with most groups taking two paladins.

We currently run a Paladin/Warrior combo in turn 5 (second group in the world to get there, first non-legacy) and I can make several guarantees (or near guarantees):

1) A Warrior is unlikely to be able to consistently tank the double Juggernaut phase of Turn 4 (Lack of cooldowns, raw mitigation during an ultra-high healing phase).
2) A Warrior will _never_ be able to successfully MT Twintania during this tier with ilvl 70 gear. Just not going to happen. Sorry boys. Our paladin comes close to being 1 shot / 1 rounded frequently even with cooldowns while despite nearly a 1.8k hp buffer, the warrior DOES frequently get one shot/one rounded.

You'll probably notice that everyone who is a warrior advocate always prefaces everything with "We have cleared up to turn 4..." or "we are currently progressing on turn 4..." -- Nothing in this game hits "hard" until the final two waves of Turn 4, and Turn 5. After this, these folks are going to be in for a very rude awakening.

All told, warriors are not viable MT, but they are extremely useful as OT. The damage they put out over and above what a second Paladin would is not negligible, and they serve well in that role, which is a VERY important one.

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On a side note, anyone who says you should be speccing 30 strength for anything later than maybe primals is out of their freakin' mind.

(This is all from a Healer's point of view).

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Originally Posted by Xilrasis

All told, warriors are not viable MT, but they are extremely useful as OT. The damage they put out over and above what a second Paladin would is not negligible, and they serve well in that role, which is a VERY important one.

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Just curious about how you're running your OTs. Are they running with or without Defiance / Shield Oath up? Because if they're running with them down (until they need to pick something up) PLD with Sword Oath will be pretty much toe to toe with what a WAR can put out.

If you mean AOE damage then I guess that makes sense for WAR to have an advantage with Overpower.

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Originally Posted by Hachiko

Just curious about how you're running your OTs. Are they running with or without Defiance / Shield Oath up? Because if they're running with them down (until they need to pick something up) PLD with Sword Oath will be pretty much toe to toe with what a WAR can put out.

If you mean AOE damage then I guess that makes sense for WAR to have an advantage with Overpower.

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I am the Warrior of Xilrasis' group, and yes primarily I am tanking multiple targets. The aoe damage of Warriors is quite good for a tank. On most fights you can gear with some non-Vit gear for a little added damage if necessary. Paladin with Sword Oath is pretty good damage as well, but Warrior's bring Storm's Eye when off tanking, and while it isn't huge it is a damage boost which in the later Coil you will want.

Pre Turn 4 and 5, Warriors are fine. They might not be ideal and you might need to build around them, but they can tank the content. Turns 4 and 5 they are not viable and will never be as good as Paladins. Our healing mechanics are unusable do to the magnitude of the damage. Bloodbath and Storm's Path do not do enough to be noticeable due to the spikes of damage. Inner Beast is only usable in very specific circumstances (ie. desperation to stay alive, Infuriate if off CD), outside of these edges cases it is better to just leave a five stacks of Wrath on.

I have read through most of the Reddit thread and it is primarily players who have not tried to MT Turns 4 or 5.

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Originally Posted by Rootzo

"And to all of those saying "Warrior tanks are so hard to heal on Titan" well I have to disagree. If you have a coordinated group, you know exactly when the big damage is coming on Titan and can predict his every move. Learn the encounter and both tanks will be as easy to heal."

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This is completely false in Turns 4 and 5. You will take upwards of 8000 - 9000 damage in under a second. Even if healers could heal up our massive HP pools to full, we lack the cooldowns required to survive the spike damage that occurs in Turns 4 and 5.

So what we have here is a legitimate problem or are we ok with defined content we cannot tank?

Do you feel that these disparities are so egregious that SE will patch them just for this fight? Or do you think gear levels will even things out?

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Originally Posted by Kjersgaard

So what we have here is a legitimate problem or are we ok with defined content we cannot tank?

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I am fine with content existing that requires a Paladin to main tank over Warrior, so long as there are adequate uses for a Warrior in the fight or there are fights that require a Warrior. Personally I am largely against homogenization, skill wise and encounter wise.

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Originally Posted by Amurica

Do you feel that these disparities are so egregious that SE will patch them just for this fight? Or do you think gear levels will even things out?

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I doubt it. We could probably use some tweaks overall, especially regarding the Wrath mechanic, but I think as more content comes in usefulness will balance itself.

Have you found end game content where a group says "we'd rather have a warrior for this run"?

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Originally Posted by Kjersgaard

Have you found end game content where a group says "we'd rather have a warrior for this run"?

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For an offtank? Yes.

For a main-tank? No.

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Originally Posted by Zell

Warrior is harder to play which explains some of the problems people are having.

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well, just remember that it isn't all just the warrior player

the worse your healers are, the worse a bonus to healing becomes

a good healer predicts incoming damage and heals it up as it comes in, while a bad one does whatever it is that they do.

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Originally Posted by Kjersgaard

So what we have here is a legitimate problem or are we ok with defined content we cannot tank?

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well even without doing the content i think its pretty safe to assume we are okay for anything up to coil as long as we have decent gear (ak/dl/af+1), and coil is probably going to hurt too much without gear.

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Originally Posted by Amurica

Do you feel that these disparities are so egregious that SE will patch them just for this fight? Or do you think gear levels will even things out?

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Should they make a minor tweak such as healing on defiance and not wrath as well as buffing it some? undoubtedly

Will they? I wouldn't hold my breath.

But as long as you are providing Data that conflicts with their perception of the game and their vision of the Warrior job that suggests it is not everything that they wanted it to be, you can't say you didn't do anything or try to communicate with them.

we did titan with our warrior tank and man was he getting hard, this is with full darklight light/relic/af+1. In bahamuts coil the first boss hit hard for paladin, for warrior i was like eeeeeek

as a healer lol

Just did turn 4 with a warrior tank and it went pretty well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDu56mEBOP0

Did Titan with nearly only AK Gear+some Darklight Ring/Earring/Necklace/Bracelet and Ifrit Axe.

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Originally Posted by Baci

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDu56mEBOP0

Did Titan with nearly only AK Gear+some Darklight Ring/Earring/Necklace/Bracelet and Ifrit Axe.

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This proof pudding tastes delicious. I want their recipe!

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Originally Posted by Kagato

This proof pudding tastes delicious. I want their recipe!

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They topped the tank right when he did his rock shit. That and noone died.

I was under the impression that in 2.1/2.2 we could expect some changes to be made. I can't remember what video it was in (possibly a live letter) but I'm sure I remember hearing that some adjustments were going to be made again as it was tweaked a little too high. I remember it mentioning the dev's testing it originally found it too easy and they tweaked the difficulty like 10x or something... wish I could remember what video it was in so I could link it... as for now I guess I'll have to live with sounding like I'm spewing nonsense

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Originally Posted by Comfy

Just did turn 4 with a warrior tank and it went pretty well.

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Is this saying you *completed* turn 4 with a warrior *main tank* or you attempted turn 4 with a warrior tank? Or you completed/attempted turn 4 with a warrior offtank? There is a large difference.

Well we cleared it with warrior as an offtank. Just saying warriors been viable and has had its place through coil so far and looking at the beginning of turn 5 it seems viable there as well, however we've got no idea what the later phases are like so I may be mistaken.

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Originally Posted by Amurica

Do you feel that these disparities are so egregious that SE will patch them just for this fight? Or do you think gear levels will even things out?

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This is something that's more likely to get fixed via class/job adjustments than through gear. Unless you specifically split gear to have one set exclusive to PLD and one set exclusive to WAR, gear won't factor much into the solution.

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Originally Posted by Eronn

I am fine with content existing that requires a Paladin to main tank over Warrior, so long as there are adequate uses for a Warrior in the fight or there are fights that require a Warrior. Personally I am largely against homogenization, skill wise and encounter wise.

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As much as I FULLY agree with your statement but I am afraid that this is the direction that any recent mmo will turn into it. Players now a days feel that a tank should be able to tank any encounter no matter if you are warrior or paladin. It is the mentality that people have behind their char; if i am classify as a tank why can't I tank it? Players need to grasp the concept that Off tanks are just as important as MT. W/out one, you are not going to progress.

Agree fully, as long as warrior have a define spot in raid, then I think it is fine.

We had our Paladin tank Dreadnoughts and the Warrior tanked the adds, no kiting involved. Elevator went down to Turn 5.

Now the tanking of Twintania is another story. ]:

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Originally Posted by tnkw

Players now a days feel that a tank should be able to tank any encounter no matter if you are warrior or paladin. It is the mentality that people have behind their char; if i am classify as a tank why can't I tank it? Players need to grasp the concept that Off tanks are just as important as MT. W/out one, you are not going to progress.

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As I've repeatedly mentioned, there's nothing as aggravating as realizing your favorite class was purposely designed to not be good enough for content. That alone is why niche design sucks.

Not to mention that a tank that can maintank can offtank as well; now would you rather have raids sit WARs entirely and go with 2 PLDs just so WAR can be a unique special snowflake?

From what I've read is that people do prefer Pal/War tank instead of Pal/Pal tank. Therefore, at the moment, I don't see there are issues w/ regarding warriors participating in end game contents. Warriors are not good at MT the content than Paladin, but is a better OT than the Paladin. (From what I read)

I myself is against homogenization of roles and I am a strong believer that each char should have its own unique place in raid. That being said, I do understand your concern w/ regarding picking base on jobs instead of the players behind the chars. However, it will not happen if SE design the contents that require the participation of every jobs.

Now, I will agree with you if the content is Paladin feasible only and there no way to progress w/out running 2 Paladin tanks.

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Originally Posted by tnkw

I myself is against homogenization of roles and I am a strong believer that each char should have its own unique place in raid. That being said, I do understand your concern w/ regarding picking base on jobs instead of the players behind the chars. However, it will not happen if SE design the contents that require the participation of every jobs.

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Putting your chips in content design has failed every time it was tried. Players find an "optimal" way to do things and if it means excluding jobs then so be it. I've played these games enough to know the most effective way of avoiding it is leveling performance between the members of the tank, heals and DPS rosters.

That does not mean making all tanks the same. I hated how Blizzard copy-pasted mitigation mechanics on to every tank with MoP simply because they liked Blood DK's active mitigation. Tank jobs can and should have flavor in the form of mechanics, rotations and aesthetics. What I don't want is one being more viable than the next, as a group's chances of success should be the same regardless of Bob the PLD being MT, Dave the WAR being MT, ot Steve the SAM being MT.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

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Its a matter of doing good design using the class mechanics, you don't need to copy paste everything, but for example warrior, if you don't want to give mitigation, you need to give a larger health pool and ways to regenerate his HP fast in order to MT.
And done no need to copy paste.
If a boss is hitting a warrior for almost 90% of his hp, he should be able to pop a defensive cooldown to regen his health to full right after it.

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Originally Posted by Takamorisan

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See, this is where I disagree because there is such a thing as guidelines. You build DPS to do damage, not around casting...heals, for example. You build tanks to hold aggro and mitigate damage. The issue with WAR is that instead of going by a guideline of...hmm...

Ok, let's pretend you have 50 points to put into a character to make them complete. Your baseline tank kit comes with 20 points in straight out mitigation (sans shield blocking, parry procs, and the more colorful defensive cooldowns). A PLD would have the 20 points to start and put 20 more points in mitigation (accounting for Sentinel, Bulwark, and possibly Hallowed Ground), 5 points in damage and 5 points in utility. A SAM could have the starter 20 points, put 10 more into mitigation (via a parry mechanic), 15 in damage and 5 in utility.

By comparison WAR opted to NOT put the starter 20 points into mitigation and instead did a 5:20:20:5 split between minor mitigation (Foresight), self heals, damage and utility. That's where my problem with WAR comes from. It'd be one thing if it had at least gone for the starter set for tanking (20 points in mitigation) then split the rest between damage, self heals and so on. In such a case self heals would work in tandem with mitigation to make a tank that works while also being mechanically different from PLD.

The concept of a WAR keeping themselves up through self-heals is cool and very Diablo-like (Life-leech Barbarians, anyone?), but when you translate it to the context of a WAR taking hits from raid bosses the concept begins to falter, and that's what has raised concerns. As much as I hate tooting the WoW horn, Blizzard realized this with Blood DKs, which is why they implemented the Blood Shield mechanic to give the class mitigation while keeping them a two-hander-focused tank.

Since you were nice enough to be civil about this instead of "z0mg ev3rithyng mu5t b3 nich3s! fUk player choize!1one", I can give you an alternative: A way to increase the frequency of warrior attacks while under the effect of Bloodbath (reducing the GCD to .5 seconds?) and moving the healing bonus from Wrath on to Defiance.

I've beaten Titan as a WAR... but the stigma continues.

Recently I was in a party where I died to a 4500 Mountain Buster. They insisted we leave and I switched to paladin.

Where I proceeded to die to a 2500 Mountain Buster.

So you can't always blame the class. If people can't keep you up, they can't keep you up. Paladin is being used because the party is simply inadequate for the job. It's an "easy button" for people who aren't geared/don't know the fight/don't play their job right. I can't tell you how many times I've been in parties and having to use Hallowed Ground on something that's just easy mode.

That said. Most WARs spam Butchers Block combos and don't properly use/buff their cooldowns. You're not going to tank Titan or anything else end game with an 1100 Inner Beast.

Get that Inner Beast to 2500-3000 and then we're talking. But even then, people don't trust me to do my job right. I'll tell them, "So long as I'm above 5k, it's fine, I'll heal myself. They don't believe me. Then they spam cure and run out of mana and cry.

You don't have to heal me that much when I can heal 1/3 of my HP in a single cooldown. If I'm going to use my cooldown I'll tell you...

But people don't listen. *sigh*

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Originally Posted by HiirNoivl

Paladin is being used because the party is simply inadequate for the job. It's an "easy button" for people who aren't geared/don't know the fight/don't play their job right. I can't tell you how many times I've been in parties and having to use Hallowed Ground on something that's just easy mode.

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I would look at it differently. The fact that a Pal allows a party to be "less adequate" is a major issue. Many people have pointed out that Warriors tanking Coil are doing so undergeared. If you are pushing the envelope, you are frequently doing content with a "less than adequate" group in terms of gear. It's like when a group of incompetent raiders in WoW had a tank get Thunderfury. Regardless of how bad they were or how bad the MT was, they were able to very frequently clear all Vanilla content and rather quickly. If a Pal can allow a less than adequate party to clear content, it also allows an adequate party a greater threshold of mistakes.

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Originally Posted by Coramac

I would look at it differently. The fact that a Pal allows a party to be "less adequate" is a major issue. Many people have pointed out that Warriors tanking Coil are doing so undergeared. If you are pushing the envelope, you are frequently doing content with a "less than adequate" group in terms of gear. It's like when a group of incompetent raiders in WoW had a tank get Thunderfury. Regardless of how bad they were or how bad the MT was, they were able to very frequently clear all Vanilla content and rather quickly. If a Pal can allow a less than adequate party to clear content, it also allows an adequate party a greater threshold of mistakes.

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I say that many WAR tanking Coil are doing it undergeared AND underskilled and put too much pressure on healers. But that's just my observation.

My current gear is better than DL, plus level 90 axe, but I get blown off so I play a level 70 PLD.

Go figure. :(

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Originally Posted by Eronn

Turns 4 and 5 they are not viable and will never be as good as Paladins. Our healing mechanics are unusable do to the magnitude of the damage. Bloodbath and Storm's Path do not do enough to be noticeable due to the spikes of damage. Inner Beast is only usable in very specific circumstances (ie. desperation to stay alive, Infuriate if off CD), outside of these edges cases it is better to just leave a five stacks of Wrath on.

This is completely false in Turns 4 and 5. You will take upwards of 8000 - 9000 damage in under a second. Even if healers could heal up our massive HP pools to full, we lack the cooldowns required to survive the spike damage that occurs in Turns 4 and 5.

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As a WAR who has completed turn 4 (World 5th I believe) and is working on Turn 5 I strongly agree with the above. There is just no way a WAR can deal with the damage output anywhere close to a PLD in certain phases, at least with the present gear available.

I like to think it was already established that Warriors were designed to be OT's long before this game was actually released. Now here we are raiding content, and lo and behold, Warrior is the optimal off tank.

In a game where you can switch classes with the press of one button, I think it makes perfect sense that the MT/OT roles have been set (more or less) in stone for our two tank classes. It just sucks for people who rolled Warrior because they wanted to MT with a few extra doses of MANLY.

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Originally Posted by HiirNoivl

I say that many WAR tanking Coil are doing it undergeared AND underskilled and put too much pressure on healers. But that's just my observation.

My current gear is better than DL, plus level 90 axe, but I get blown off so I play a level 70 PLD.

Go figure. :(

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I think the fixes could be relatively simple. Example, SE could probably increase the HP buff of Defiance from 25% to 50%, make the 15% healing base to Defiance, and wash its hands of the issue going forward. This would give the War a 20% EHP advantage and make them broadly superior in absorbing burst damage but more healing intensive (~8.5% less effective in received heals and less efficient with no block).

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Originally Posted by Vic_Viper

As a WAR who has completed turn 4 (World 5th I believe) and is working on Turn 5 I strongly agree with the above. There is just no way a WAR can deal with the damage output anywhere close to a PLD in certain phases, at least with the present gear available.

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The only way to survive that amount of Damage as PLD would be using Hallowed Ground.

I feel that there is missing information here. I haven't been able to play those later phases, but I know that Damage Mitigation in many fights is a mixture of a DPS race and working with the mechanics of the fight. So I'm going to reserve the "not viable" and "never" until I see it myself.

The truth is, if you want to faceroll content and learn the fight later (which most people do right now) PLD is the way to go.

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Originally Posted by Coramac

I think the fixes could be relatively simple. Example, SE could probably increase the HP buff of Defiance from 25% to 50%, make the 15% healing base to Defiance, and wash its hands of the issue going forward. This would give the War a 20% EHP advantage and make them broadly superior in absorbing burst damage but more healing intensive (~8.5% less effective in received heals and less efficient with no block).

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I'm not sure why they would do this. Giving more HP to WAR I feel would really make it OP. For example, right now with Defiance and Thrill of Battle I'm up to almost 8500. If they added more HP I would be over 9000 (!!!!!) in level 70 HQ gear. I would reach Cap HP in Crystal Tower gear.

Adding 15% Healing Base to Defiance add further pressure on Healers to keep the guy topped up as the WAR will see no reason to even bother filling that HP pool himself.

I think that can be fixed adding to defiance a 10% or 20% of damage reduction like shield of oath, that will equal the balance between the pld and war. PLD will have the damages reduction skills and war more hp a some healing skills that i think that need to be improved. (storm path combo only 120 and blood bath between 20 and 40 for hit is....useless). Im too Pld and i think that flash should not share cooldown with others skills.