F.A.T.E: The Truth you don't want to hear.

Let us all be honest with ourselves. FATE's are the quickest way to level, though is that a bad thing? Honestly, by checking throughout this whole forum I can tell that a few people are resolutely going to yell very loudly at their monitors "Yes", so let us tackle the subject and the symptoms of the problems and try to match them with the supposed culprit that many are accusing.

On quite a few of the topics that I have browsed, people have put up the claim that it ruins the dungeon experience. Claiming that people do not know how to act in dungeons, or how to properly utilize their class or their position in a dungeon to progressively assist the people they are placed with. I have been a witness to this at all levels of gameplay. From Sastasha to Ifrit (Hard-Mode), there are players through every level of the game within the community that do not know or do not care to know how to play their class properly without hindering the team they are in.

Did FATE's do this? No. Every MMO has this type of player, people who do not care to learn, people who do not care about getting carried by people who know what they are doing and refuse to learn what they are doing wrong. So, no FATE's did not cause that horrible Conjurer to think he could DPS instead of heal while letting the tank die. No, FATE's did not just make that dragoon use a stunning move on hard mode ifrit and ruin the rotation to block eruptions from wiping your group.

Though another argument is that FATE's are "Poisoning" the community and letting casuals get to a higher level quickly without getting geared properly or learning before taking on AK and not being able to DPS the second boss in AK down before the party wipes, or going strait to Hard-Mode Garuda with a weak level 43 weapon white and holding their team back. Is this the cause of FATE's? Yes, and no.

As far as being under geared, there is no gear check outside of failure in action due to lack of skill or just using a stunningly weak weapon in combination of lack of skill/knowledge of fights when jumping around content in the "Post-Story" mode. There is a general 'guide' of where to go, however there are no requirements out side of level [and maybe completing a requisite dungeon/duty before hand] to enter harder duty's/dungeon's like:"you must have a gear level total of "X"." I think SE should implement a 'light' requirement along these lines and that would solve a bit of the problem with people unwittingly [or otherwise] holding their groups back.

As far as the "Poisoning" of the community... I have witnessed this elephant in the room. It's name is Rude, and its brother is Callous and both are fueled by hate and pride. Players of all stripes play this game, may they be mean, or nice. Do FATE's exclusively allow them to get to the 'elusive' level of 50?
[still posting]

No. Anyone can get there, it just takes varying degrees of time and effort dependent upon your own planning. The best thing to do when you meet these poisonous people is to ignore them or utilize the tools at hand, tell your friends, and add them to your black list. Though obviously if they are harassing you or others, report them, the community will thank you.

Now down to the "Casuals use FATE's" or any other 'mix' of terms concerning the word 'casual' in order to make it seem lesser than "acceptable" to some people that play the game. Using Fate's to level do not make you or others "Casual," nor is that a suitable term. FATE's are the best way for people to level, especially if they are DPS. I am DPS, and on my own or without a full party it takes 80 to 120 minutes to get into a DUTY [I have had these times even with a tank to partner up with me!]. So what do I do?

I change to a off class, and go have fun in FATE's with a group of friends that I am planning on doing the DUTY with or just solo the fates with the rest of the people around until the DUTY is ready for me. Would I love to do DUTY's more often? Yes! Can I do them more often? No, and the sad part is that it isn't because I'm lazy, it is because as dps I am a dime a dozen and I have hundreds of other DPS to compete with for a random spot with a random group.

So in short in my opinion, FATE's are saving this game. Why? Because people would have little to nothing to do while waiting for the DUTY finder, because not everyone has 24/7 access to 3 other members that would be able to do DUTY's together all the time or at all in general.

There are growing pains that come with making such a great game, everyone is going to want to try it and not everyone is nice, and not everyone is dexterous or proficient in gaming. However I think SE has a good mix, you may get the levels, but you need the gear. FATE's are meant to do to level you up in my eyes and Dungeons/duty's are meant to temper you and get you better gear.

So, in my opinion the truth is clear: FATE's are perfect the way they are [aside from obvious exploits "AKA. Dark Devices"] and we as gamers should not resort to calling people names or categorizing them just because they chose a different path to get from point A to point C. We should Guide Them if we can. If they are on your server and they have weak gear, talk with them, and see if you cannot assist them in becoming a better player. If we as a community stick together, we wont be fated to fall apart over petty differences in choice of how everyone spends their time in Eorzia.

I would have posted this in ONE post, but there is a 1k character limit, and this is a 5-6k character text that I have been writing up. Sorry, wish I could have merged it or something, but it needed to be said.

^ So much more of this, Fate's are not the problem! Idiots are the problem, once your done with quests, fates are the only way to go D; other than leves maybe but they give bad exp... +1 to you good sir, I don't quite understand why people complain about them, as long as your not a 5 year old you should know how to use your class.

If you ever find yourself in a party with an unskilled player in a dungeon, Just tell them what to do. If they don't listen, Just leave the duty. Don't waste your time with those people. I agree that FATE grinding is awesome when you want to level. But I disagree about it causing players to be unskilled with their Class, Just because they grind to 50 doesn't mean that they don't know how to play their roles.

Lets just face the fact here, you guys are crying over a new game that has not even been out for a month yet. There's still so much they are gonna add its just a starting point things will be tweaked, new content added, and new ways to level. Give them a chance to implement new things (Fates for DoL I hope). Why not try to figure put a new way to exp yourself? I'm sure in a few months or so people will have a nice way to exp party without fates. Stop complaining and start throwing out contrastive ideas. The dev team is listening but I'm sure there tired of seeing people cry and moan.

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Originally Posted by Ares_Nocturnal

Lets just face the fact here, you guys are crying over a new game that has not even been out for a month yet. There's still so much they are gonna add its just a starting point things will be tweaked, new content added, and new ways to level. Give them a chance to implement new things (Fates for DoL I hope). Why not try to figure put a new way to exp yourself? I'm sure in a few months or so people will have a nice way to exp party without fates. Stop complaining and start throwing out contrastive ideas. The dev team is listening but I'm sure there tired of seeing people cry and moan.

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I don't Really see who's complaining, or did you not read his post? o-o This seems more like a rebuttal imo to the people who complain about how fates need to be nurfed and whatnot. o-o

Only thing that bothers me is how many people run around in high level free gear. When you think about duty finder wait times and lack of gill some seem to cry about. It make you wonder. My level 30+ dungeon gear is better than your level 41 free gear. Why didnt you runs some dungeons to get some good loot and collect allagan sac as quest rewards. You'd be at the top of your game gear wise and have tons a of gill with nothing to spend it on. Fate grinds seem to make people content with npc free gear, and being broke. Then they enter an instance and wonder why its hard for them to clear.

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Originally Posted by AlternativeOne

Only thing that bothers me is how many people run around in high level free gear. When you think about duty finder wait times and lack of gill some seem to cry about. It make you wonder. My level 30+ dungeon gear is better than your level 41 free gear. Why didnt you runs some dungeons to get some good loot and collect allagan sac as quest rewards. You'd be at the top of your game gear wise and have tons a of gill with nothing to spend it on. Fate grinds seem to make people content with npc free gear, and being broke. Then they enter an instance and wonder why its hard for them to clear.

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I think you missed the whole point of this thread, sir. I do dungeon runs all the time, however the time I wait to do them is anywhere between 80-120 minutes. I, myself do dungeons whenever wherever I can and getting good greens is a random factor added in to the whole mix as well. Fate grinding is not the issue here, your perception is.

I don't really hate the FATEs for being an easy leveling method... I just hate that they are so brainless. Even Behemoth and Odin turn into a zerg fest, mostly because of the loading issues with monsters not being the 'priority' over other players. (You can't see a monster unless you are in its face, thus making the 'avoiding' mechanic useless since you can't see what you need to avoid in the first place.) If FATEs were harder or at least a bit more challenging, I wouldn't have an issue with them. I particularly dislike the ones with all non-elite mobs that people literally just spam-AoE down. It requires no planning whatsoever. I realize this is a product of the game 'just launching', but I would like to see the harder FATEs have a bit more skill required.

Whether or not FATEs exist, non-skilled players are going to reach 50 and they are going to use the DF to join dungeons or raids they are not prepared for. It's frustrating, but it happens in every single MMO. Adjusting FATEs isn't going to suddenly force the player base to become 'good'. Right now, you can beat some things with a PUG group that listens (and key jobs that know what they are doing), but I believe the harder endgame stuff will really require a solid group who knows what to do. I see premade groups becoming more and more popular as time goes on. Duty Finder groups are already a huge hassle... If it's not a player being unskilled, it's some other elitist dude griping and leaving before the first pull is made because he doesn't think people are geared enough. *eyeroll*

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Originally Posted by Ryuko

<i>Quoting Ryuko</i>

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Exactly, and compound this determent onto the fact that for most unlucky people it takes hours to get into a single Dungeon using the duty finder unless they have pre-made groups... I do agree that FATE's should be more engaging too, rather than a zerg fest half the time. I hope in the future SE decides to improve FATE's without 'nerfing' them because of this misconception that they are wholly 'bad'

You know what's funny is can anyone really say they enjoy FATE? I mean conceptually it should be cool, but it is a zergfest deluxe. I mean REALLY! half the time you get there and it's over. Due to the obvious flux of ACN and SMN jobs the pets are taking priority over the actual targets. I am sure once everyone and their mother finished lvling ACN/SMN it will get better, but having to compete with 30 pets to actually target a mob that goes away in 3 seconds after you get there is highly debatable to be fun.

You know the ironic thing is FATE was designed to "evolve and modernize" grinding. I am finding it hard to see the evolution and modernizing in the FATE system.

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Originally Posted by rution19

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The main problem I think is that the game can only handle so much in one area without removing things from sight. I 'think' that is what you are referring to? My friend has this issue to where in big 'zerg' groups in fate runs he will end up only seeing chocobos and people and NOT be able to see the proper targets. As far as not getting there in time before everything is done, have you tried going into shout and requesting to join one of those groups. I mean if it isnt your thing [or you are waiting for your DF to get you to your dungeon] then i understand.

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Originally Posted by Sibarian_Aries

The main problem I think is that the game can only handle so much in one area without removing things from sight. I 'think' that is what you are referring to? My friend has this issue to where in big 'zerg' groups in fate runs he will end up only seeing chocobos and people and NOT be able to see the proper targets. As far as not getting there in time before everything is done, have you tried going into shout and requesting to join one of those groups. I mean if it isnt your thing [or you are waiting for your DF to get you to your dungeon] then i understand.

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Ya, I am usually in a party. There are some FATES on the map that you literally need to have pop on you to get any XP (which is fine). To clarify my post is by the time you get there and start trying to target the mob you get 20 pets. I agree that is just an annoyance, my major problem is this zergfest replaced traditional leveling. I sat there mindlessly watching a fireworks show and got 1/2 a million XP last night and totally never saw the target in a 1/4 of them. Not to mention the whole zone being DC'ed when Behemoth popped (understandable). I guess I would like to see there being a more traditional substantial type of leveling be implemented. Can this be fixed? I hope so, but I knew this was going to be shite in BETA.

I don't want to start a flame war, but this in no way adds any substance to the game. It certainly doesn't teach new players learn the game in a constructive way. Convincing me FATE is fun just validates my suspicions that this game was made for the lowest common denominator. Which has taken out all of the integrity of the series. It's just such a shame that the developers bent to the will of the complainers. We are now seeing the obvious problems that come along with lowering standards.

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Originally Posted by rution19

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I am by no means attempting to convince people that FATE's are 'fun' when if they are used for grinding they become just as boring. However I don't want to start a flame war either, but open up a discussion between people. I understand FATE's don't 'teach' people much except hit button quickly and gain prize because you hit the most buttons and tagged the most mobs.

I do 'like' fates as the tool that they are, for leveling up or getting seals. Though they do need to spice up FATE's as is, I am content to wait on them to do that and I think they are going to do a good job based on what they released so far. As far as FATE's go they are something entertaining to do while waiting on your DF to pop if you don't want to do gathering/crafting at the time, and a menial task that you can engage in with a group of people.

I didn't read the entire thing, but FYI op, you can edit your post after the initial postand there is no character limit. So you type out the whole thing, then cut out all but the first couple words, post it, then edit and paste everything back in.

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Originally Posted by Yiell

If you ever find yourself in a party with an unskilled player in a dungeon, Just tell them what to do. If they don't listen, Just leave the duty. Don't waste your time with those people. I agree that FATE grinding is awesome when you want to level. But I disagree about it causing players to be unskilled with their Class, Just because they grind to 50 doesn't mean that they don't know how to play their roles.

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Just leave the duty :P
Maybe that is an option for a Glad with instant queue like yourself.

I have only done FATEs that appear on my way somewhere, maybe that will change once I start raising a second class. I have no problems with FATE grinding, some people are going to suck regardless on how they got to 50.

I like the fact that not completing the Main Story Quest prevents you from getting the full experience of the game. You're essentially locked out from several dungeons, and of course the Hard Mode Primal fights. So just leveling up to 50 won't give you the best experience, especially through FATE, and frankly, I can't see how that is fun. It's far more entertaining to actually do the story quests as well as class, and jobs.

Frankly, I feel that they should've locked more dungeons out until you complete the main story quests, but eh.

FATEs have their place in the whole setting as repeatable public quests. I do think that three things should be done to them though.

1. Make the risk and effort versus reward at least comparable to other EXP sources.
2. If they're meant for Disciples of War / Magic as a whole, make sure that other things besides constant, fast DPS matter also.
3. Make them scale properly even to larger participant numbers.

They're all tied together really. The more participants you have now, the more of an AoE spamfest (or DPS spamfest in bosses) FATEs become. This greatly diminishes the need for other traditional roles. With little risk of dying it gets to be less about combat, more about experience farming. The more wildly you flail your pointy things/staff around the more effective you will be. In short, I'd like them to be more challenging.

The problem is that FATES should not be a power leveling service. Nor should they be seen as the ideal source of leveling since in their design they are ment to be something you do on a whim. They should be a fun interactive and rewarding experience, which they are for the most part. However it has many problems in these regards for one promoting an overly easy leveling experience just shortens the time developers have to create quality content, secondly they need more fate types and some form of fate scaling system, also right now many people are being left out of the rewarding aspect and often not are having to do things out of role to get credit (tanks/healers aiming to DPS for credit). Fact is the fate system is an interesting concept but it needs work it is in no way a perfect system and could definitely use some improvement.

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Originally Posted by Sunoske

^ So much more of this, Fate's are not the problem! Idiots are the problem, once your done with quests, fates are the only way to go D; other than leves maybe but they give bad exp... +1 to you good sir, I don't quite understand why people complain about them, as long as your not a 5 year old you should know how to use your class.

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Thats exactly the problem.

Once you're done with quests, FATEs are the only thing worth doing.

You dont see this as a problem at all that leves and dungeons are so subpar expwise nobpody sane would use them?

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Originally Posted by CrimsonJenn

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The Fate system is supposed to be a change from the typical "Grind" we have seen in MMO's and unless I am getting my information horribly wrong [which I leave open to be corrected by someone with a adequate source] The developers commented on fates and stated them to be technically 'working as intended' for now, although keeping a eye on them. Again, maybe you are just bringing opinion into this.

Personally I rather have FATE's as they are, a tool to progress and get Seals. Many people have ways to get from point A to point C, Just because it was not your way does not make it a lesser way, more efficient in terms of leveling? Yes, although Please keep that in mind, everyone has a right to play this game without dictation from anyone other than SE.

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Originally Posted by wingofbenu

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Dungeons are actually not subpar expwise, just timewise. Being honest I rather do the Dungeons, however you are correct and nobody biased against fates would refuse to use them. However I think you are missing the point of his post unless you believe that FATE's are a problem. They are not. If DF worked as intended there would be much less need to do FATE's and more people would be in dungeons instead of waiting for 60-120 minutes.

You misunderstand my intentions, I do not mean fates should be a useless form of leveling by any means. But it definitely should not be the ideal form, Leves should most likely be the highest form of experience since lets face it they're cross function between crafting gathering and battle exp, not to mention they have a limit to how many can be done. But as it stands that's exactly what FATES are currently just the basic MMO grind, your going from location to location to complete a task whether it be killing a set number of monsters or gathering a set number of items. But we know they can be so much more! As the boss and attack/defend fates have shown us it isn't impossible to design far more interesting fates. And i disagree fates should not be considered a tool for any reason. They are an interesting activity that's true gifts lie in its ability to pick up and do, no queue time, no gear limitation just something that anyone can jump in and have fun with. That doesn't mean they can't be interesting and have fun mechanics.

When the rewards of one method of game play exceed equivalent methods of game play, people will flock to the path of least resistance. When they use that one method of game play above other alternatives, game balance is destroyed, and in bad situations that can even manifest as too many people in one zone or location. For the sake of a level playing field in a sandbox game, it is important that alternatives exist and be comparable in reward.

It's not a level 50 thing, or a healer vs tank thing, or a kid vs adult thing. Game balance affects everyone. This is "meta-game," and it's not uncommon to have to fine-tune these things after launch.

Some people may say "get rid of FATEs" but the majority of people don't want anything like that, just a retuning so it's comparable to the alternatives.

Honestly, the problem isn't FATEs at all. It's that they're the only thing to do.

So you played through the entire game on your main class, you got Level 50, you got awesome gear, you did a ton of dungeons...but now you want to try another class. So you switch. Now what? There's nothing to do.

All of the quests in the entire game are done. Hunting Logs don't last all 50 levels, or even til' 15. Levequests have horrible EXP output. Dungeons take forever to enter for most classes. Regular grinding is laughable, at best. The only thing that gives an acceptable EXP quantity is FATEs. There's no point in gear grinding for non-maxed gear, so by extension there's no real point in doing a dungeon that's not end-game.

Leve Allowances are so low that you could never use them for leveling, even if they gave an acceptable reward. I found myself trying to do them when I needed to level in Coerthas, because FATEs are plain impossible to get a gold on in that area as an Arcanist (No AOE, so no participation reward). I buffed the difficulty to +5 (when it recommends 0), fight mobs 5 levels above me, if not more, and get less EXP than a FATE where I have to do nothing.

FATE EXP is fine, the problem is that nothing else gives an acceptable amount of rewards. People complain that others are leveling too fast, yet at the same time will also say that the game doesn't begin until you're max level, or there's no point in doing anything prior to max level. So why do I need to mindlessly and tirelessly grind to max level? It shouldn't be an ordeal, but it is, especially if you don't do FATEs.

The only things FATEs ruined are themselves... and the duty finder queues. They are too good so everybody, even party players, are farming them day in and day out. If dungeons were better options for party play exp wise FATEs would be more casual and better experiences for solo players.

Face it, nobody enjoys running all over the map to a FATE, tag 2 mobs and then move on because the entire thing got slaughtered by the avalanch of players. Don't nerf fates. Make dungeons good.

Here's the brutal truth to those that choose to do FATEs and FATEs only - you're going to hit a very painful wall and glass ceiling with terrible gear. They are going to step into a dungeon like Ampador Keep and really hold the group back. They are going to disband because that individual's gear can't hold up. And, it will be a painful realisation that they have completely locked themselves out and possibly quit. Either that, or they will go back and retrace their steps to get better gear first.

Meanwhile, there are many of us who use FATEs to level and play the game properly with appropriate gear progression because we aren't uninformed. There is nothing wrong with FATEs themselves. And, stop blaming it for poor DF queues. People are queuing up for dungeons, and it isn't the only way to get a party - especially if you are a DPS. Realistically, only tanks and healers will find DF favourable to them. So, if you want to rely on DF, reroll tank or healer.

The only thing I see wrong with Fates is they need to better handle the large number of people doing them perhaps add multiple channels and instance them a little. It's annoying to run around as a WHM and the fate be finished by 200 people before you get the first Stone 2 off.

Try being melee in fates now that sucks

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Originally Posted by Thatispookins

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This isn't even true. You can just buy gear or quickly do the quests at your level that hands you the right gear. Also please tell me how FATEs aren't ruining DF queues when everybody are doing FATEs instead of queuing with the DF? There is no reason to do dungeons except like once and hope you get some gear. Otherwise you can just zoom past those levels and get some quick quest gear through FATEs.

You can't even queue for the DF while doing FATEs in areas like coerthas because you get silver or bronze in a lot of FATEs unless you're in a party.

Also you get free AF gear for all classes through your job quests. Your point is completely invalid.

The big problem with FATEs, as others pointed out: They're not very interesting, and at some point they're all that's left to do.

I came into FFXIV with some friends, and we quickly discovered that FFXIV isn't very group friendly: quests are non-shareable, main quest objectives often force you to leave the group, leves are limited, and dungeons can't even be unlocked without soloing the main story quests. The only group friendly thing to do are FATEs.

I do believe FATES can be abused. I've seen people in my FC who do nothing but fates. There has been the problem where a fate has started, and theres a mob of 50+ people fighting for a couple hits on the targets. I've faced the frustration of traveling to a fate, joining it, only to see it completed before I even participated.

I do agree with other people on how you should complete the other quests first then hop on fate when you got nothing else to complete and leves are feeling a bit too slow for your level. But then again, people have their own reasons to play the game. End-game content, Storyline, PvP, etc.

On the upside, I found fates as a small way to interact with people. Fate parties and so forth. As another note, I feel that fates are so much more rewarding at times than dungeons EXP wise. Dungeons are time-consuming, but I could get nearly the same exp in less than half the time I spend in a dungeon.

I do not really buy the whole "gear not good enough" argument. I did some testing on my Mage and CNJ on that one. Switching weapons to see what impact they have on my healing and damaging abilities. Honestly, even adding 10 attack value added like 10-15 more damage (on a 250 hitting damage skill), what does not really sound gamebreaking to me. Messing up your rotation or dying in the red/blue/green costs you more DPS/HPS over the whole battle than gear I'd imagine.
I have to admit I did not take bonus stats into account, like +Int/Mnd. those might have a bigger impact on your performance, though I'd need to properly test that first.

Fates are the only way to level multiple classes to catch up to your main. Or leveling your alt class in order to unlock your job class. They're very fun. What i would suggest is a player limit on fates, say 20 players. I'm pretty sure there have been fates with well over 100 guys and that does no justice to lag and rendering issues

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Originally Posted by mr_wazzabi

char limit

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Before there was event called behest. When it was the overall best way to level people would wait at the spawn npc to spam entry to get on the que. It was lame if all your party got in but you did not and the devs gimped it to promote party play. Now I assume their approach with fate was to stop barring from entry but I also assume they didn't expect people to wait around only for fates to pop, exactly like they did with behest. Now if the fate occurs organically its actually quite a cool event. Where you start with 5 people but by the end you have 80+ but I assume their idea was made around a smaller population as well just like their original server stress model.

I enjoy fates!