Is the CD on Dragoon Abilities Too Long?

Just wanted some thoughts from players in current end game content.

Primarily Spineshatter and Elusive Jump at 3 minutes. My impression is we don't bring much Utility beyond stuns so it seems like Dragoons should be about maneuverability and the ability to avoid bad stuff on the ground without losing Boss uptime.

From a non-end game glance 3 minutes seems excessive for the above skills. 60 seconds would seem to be more appropriate as a CD so Dragoons aren't jumping all over the place constantly while being short enough to be used to get in and out of 360 AOE's and back on the Boss.

In the same vein I assume the Return to Origin feature of JUMP is more to prevent it from being a gap closer than any benefit I can think of. If JUMP allowed us to get back on the Boss without returning I could live with the 3 minute CD's on Elusive and Spineshatter.

I admit as a mid 30 Dragon that I have zero experience with the harder content so some insight would be appreciated.

I think they just need to somehow make the jumps avoid AoE attacks like the traditional dragoon should be doing.

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Originally Posted by Nibb

I think they just need to somehow make the jumps avoid AoE attacks like the traditional dragoon should be doing.

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This needs to happen. Sometime I will be afraid to use jump in fear I get targeted by an AoE ability and have to get hit by it cause I chose to Jump.

Making them be able to avoid AoEs would be a great step and allow us to stay in close with proper timing. Right now they can get you killed since you can't move while using them and they do not evade anything while in the air.

Though I'd still feel that the damage and utility of the skills are not worth the cooldown. Dragonfire Dive does similar damage to flare yet flare is spammable (granted Dragonfire dive is free, but the cooldown is way too long). Spineshatter, having a stun seems counter productive as it is delayed and we have a good stun already. I'd really like to see this add paralyze or something like that. With Jump, I'd just like to see a shorter cooldown. They took away a lot of dps from us when they removed the ability to slot archer skills and the small buffs to the jumps did not make up for the loss at all. Having jump with a shorter cooldown would help increase our dps back up.

Agreed, I loved timing my super jump in XI when soloing to screw over enemy aoe. I used to solo/duo avatar boss battles at 75 with my drg and I'd super jump their 2hr. Fun times. Of course if you screwed up you'd just get splattered.

But yes, Since we're jumping so bloody high you'd think we'd be out of range for enemy attacks. And a slightly lower cooldown would be appreciated considering the speed of some fights, we can't always pump out as much damage with the cooldowns the way they are.

@Nothv13 You have noticed that the Dragoon skills are off global cooldown? You can use them after your... lest say Full Thrust? You'll lose a bit of time because of the animation but you'll still gain DPS. I think the cooldowns are now fine but they should really do something about the fact that you can be hit while jumping.

Yeh, CDs are pretty excessive for jump attacks..specially for their non-impressive damage, root component and nonavoidance of anything. Not to mention that jump stun is pretty meh, unless you're just standing there doing nothing and waiting to interrupt (or the cast is long ass slow, which is very very rarely)...well, maybe if the servers were in EU...

Edit: half-GDC cost + long CDs is pretty negligible DPS increase and increased risk of not being able to move. But yeah, for 100% dps output...jumps.

If they consciously decided against giving Jumps AoE immunity I would guess it's because they don't want us trivializing mechanics by completely avoiding them. But I agree the CDs on Evasive Jump and Dragonfire Dive are entirely too long. Spineshatter is more reasonable but maybe still too long.

My biggest problem with the Jumps is that they just aren't that useful and the animations are way too long.

Jump is damn near useless. When I got it I assumed it gave AoE immunity; use it when you would normally need to run out of AoE. Nope. Then I assumed you were supposed to use it like a ranged attack (since it returns you to your initial position) to use when you are waiting for AoE to end. Nope. Instead it's like a super slow charge, even if you use it from range you can still be hit by anything as you move into range. It needs to be treated like a standard ranged attack or make it like the other jumps where you land on the target so it can be used like as a basic charge ability.

Dragonfire Dive is puzzling. It's an AoE ability with a 3 minute CD, and for a CD that long the potency isn't that high. It should be 1.5 min like Spineshatter I think.

Let Jump be the baseline 'charge' skill, Spineshatter as one with a stun and Dragonfire Dive as one with AoE damage attached.

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Originally Posted by Nibb

I think they just need to somehow make the jumps avoid AoE attacks like the traditional dragoon should be doing.

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a traditional dragoon would also be in the air for a long time not attacking the boss...

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Originally Posted by Brynmor

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Jump is damn near useless.........................


Let Jump be the baseline 'charge' skill, Spineshatter as one with a stun and Dragonfire Dive as one with AoE damage attached.

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Thanks for all the replies. They seem to line up with my fears. JUMP seems to be the big issue since it's really only a snazzy looking rotation filler IMO. It's great that it's off the GCD but i wish it was a Gap closer and/or avoided damage if timed right.

As melee we already have more to deal with the ranged (par for the course in these type of games) and add in our positional requirements we should at least have more tools to increase more uptime on the Boss. Leg Sweep is great for interruptible abilities but Dragoons are about Jumping. I agree with most of you that I'd be OK with some of the long CD's if JUMP was retooled and the damage from those long CD's was amped up.

One of the better uses I've seen for Jump so far is to avoid knockback pulses; I know it works on Demon Wall, not sure about Ifrit or anything else. You still take the damage, but the root keeps you on the boss so you don't lose dps while running back.

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Originally Posted by Ricauer

@Nothv13 You have noticed that the Dragoon skills are off global cooldown? You can use them after your... lest say Full Thrust? You'll lose a bit of time because of the animation but you'll still gain DPS. I think the cooldowns are now fine but they should really do something about the fact that you can be hit while jumping.

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Yes I have, they don't make up for what was lost though.

the most problematic thing about jump imho is that the animation takes to long !!! you lose about 1 second due animation and not rly worth it!

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Originally Posted by ElaintheShy

a traditional dragoon would also be in the air for a long time not attacking the boss...

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Yeah, and also do a lot more damage, take FFIV as an example, with elemental weapon against an enemy with elemental weakness you could do the same damage or more as a -ja spell

Hmm well dragoon itself is pretty strong as is. Very easy to play and does great damage. The long CD mostly seems to reflect the desire to keep the class as a 'heavy hitter'. Reducing the CD would mean lowering its damage.

That being said, the 'avoidance' deal with not taking damage during jump makes sense... but at the same time its giving an advantage to a class that already has it pretty good. In a way it adds some elements in skill in learning to time the jump in the right way to avoid jumping and getting struck by an AoE... its really a mixed bag for me I guess. I guess giving monk shouldertackle a shorter cd and no stun could make up for it somewhat, but still the advantage of jumping to avoid aoe is quite huge and that change alone wouldn't be enough to balance it out.

Animation its too slow imo :(

All Jumps need to avoid AoE.
Jump, itself, needs to move down to a 20 second cool down, damage scaled appropriately.
Spineshatter Dive needs to lose the stun application and become the heavy single target hitter.
Dragonfire Dive needs to be moved down to a 120 second cool down.
Monks should have a static trait that reduces all AoE damage taken by something like ~33%.
Monks need to have 2 dodge rolls.
Bards need to have songs reduce 50% of their damage instead of 20%.

I mean, Bards and Black Mages can do just as much damage as Dragoons and Monks, and do not have to get out of small AoE's during boss fights. At least give the melee a chance, I can dodge telegraphs just fine, but if they don't even have to, why should I? I don't understand why boss mechanics are only relevant to half of the group/raid.

Though, I have not seen any numbers yet on the various DPS classes compared to DRG; I do believe that being melee and lacking any escape, other than one jump does hurt the class as a whole. Especially as mentioned before that ranged DPS (or DD), can put out what seems to be at least around the same dmg with less risks.

Though, I do hope that we see some changes with 2.1, some lite adjustments to classes. Such as the jumps allowing DRG to dodge dmg.
Also, we have to think about these abilities operating in PvP; how can a DRG gap close, with such long cool downs and lacking ways to avoid taking access dmg to do so.

Damage vs CD vs registering all AoE's between jump point and target as damage? Get out of here. The only jump ability I have in my rotation is Jump itself, and even then it's situational because you're stuck in a 2 second animation... and if you're not aware, two seconds is a long time when you've decided to hit jump, it actually triggers a half second after you see an AoE pop up, and most AoE's are less then 2 second cast timers. We shouldn't be afraid to use our own class abilities... Pretty sure BLM isn't. Can't even gap close through tornadoes on Garuda cause you'll eat the damage...

Damage wise though, as a DRG, I parse pretty strong. I'm not even decked out in darklight/AK gear (missing waist, legs, hands still) and I'm doing 220-250 DPS comparable to a BLM who can stand and spam in full darklight/AK gear (both myself and the BLM having Ifrit weapons).

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Originally Posted by Kiluvian

All Jumps need to avoid AoE.
Jump, itself, needs to move down to a 20 second cool down, damage scaled appropriately.
Spineshatter Dive needs to lose the stun application and become the heavy single target hitter.
Dragonfire Dive needs to be moved down to a 120 second cool down.
Monks should have a static trait that reduces all AoE damage taken by something like ~33%.
Monks need to have 2 dodge rolls.

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I like these ideas, particularly the monks taking reduced AoE damage as it would allow them to stay in the fight and keep up their GL stacks (unless it's a heavy AoE). I'd be ok with SSD doing the same damage as long as the stun effect was replaced with paralysis, although I'd be equally ok with it having no extra effect and just doing bonus damage.

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Originally Posted by vyckers

Also, we have to think about these abilities operating in PvP; how can a DRG gap close, with such long cool downs and lacking ways to avoid taking access dmg to do so.

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Kiluvian's idea would be great for this. A 20 second CD on jump with scaled damage without returning you to the original position. It'd be similar to a Warrior's charge in WoW (which was 15 second CD I believe with a short stun) but with a longer CD and a bit of damage. I don't think it'd be OP in PvP because if anyone played Warrior in WoW, you'd know that with a skilled ranged player, that 15 seconds seemed like an eternity.

Just consider that in a lot of raid fights, particularly in Binding Coil, almost all of the bosses 360 degree or directional AoE literally every 5 freaking seconds or so.

drg is currently the lowest dps

ive done many test yesterday and cant go past 200 dps on dummies, when blm doing 250, mnk 230, my brd is under stuffed sso i cannot compare

drg is so slow, jumps animation are longer than gcd making them almost worthless

truly drg is not dynamic, his fun should come from high dmg ws yet i do 800 crit max , when my blm can pull 1600 crit, and pretty consistently 1K+

also i find auto attack is weak compared to mnk...

honestly start to cry, a job like bard who just stay far from trouble when other cut their dps, that can dps while moving , are a support job class, but still doing more dps than you... a bard lol... a "bard", not even archer

things are ridiculus currently

I wouldn't say lowest DPS. I ran that end story dungeon (the name eludes me at the moment...Praetorium?) a couple of times, once with me as the only goon and a second with 3 goons in the party. Second time things seemed to drop much faster. Not sure if it was just due to gear/incompetency but just something I noticed during the run.

I'm not sure how you're calculating your DPS but from what I've heard parsers so far are pretty unreliable. Then there's the variable of your gear/playstyle with DRG vs your other classes. But I do agree with the general sentiment of BRD DPS being kind of high considering they're ranged and not nearly in the line of fire as often as melee jobs.

parser is working fine, even if its not 100% reliable, it gives you a pretty solid image of the damage dealt

it will always be better than eye balling or "feeling" mob getting down faster with 3 goon

i have almost identical stat, 415 STR, 260 determination, 470 crit rate

still it might be better for aoe, but not by much

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Originally Posted by OptimalZedd

drg is currently the lowest dps

ive done many test yesterday and cant go past 200 dps on dummies...

drg is so slow, jumps animation are longer than gcd making them almost worthless

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So I don't want to come off as a dick, so don't take it that way.

Currently I'm in mostly Darklight/AK gear (ilvl 45-47 legs, hands, waist and 1 ring) and the Ifrit weapon and I'm doing 220-230 DPS on DRG. You might want to check the rotation if you're only at 200 because it sounds like (from what you're critting for) that you've got better gear then me.

The speed of the DRG I enjoy a lot so no complaints there. Definitely not the lowest DPS in instances I run (and this was before the DoTs were being read via the parser) and this is compared to characters that have full darklight/AK/Ifrit+ weapon, so on that note I can't agree.

But the rest I do agree with.

I think we'll see a future patch making damage "miss" while jumping.. I played DRG on FFXI back in the day, but I don't remember, was damage avoiding in that game?

I think they should remove power surge and reduce the CD on Jump to 30s.

Bonus points for (a) invuln frames in general, or (b) at least making the DRG "hit box" track to their original position only. Currently, you can be tagged by an AOE as you drop down to the ground before you hop back to the original position. So a DRG with poor timing / bad luck can get tagged by PBAOE attacks, line AOE attacks, OR wide area AOE attacks when they use Jump. Seems excessive.

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX

I think they should remove power surge and reduce the CD on Jump to 30s.

Bonus points for (a) invuln frames in general, or (b) at least making the DRG "hit box" track to their original position only. Currently, you can be tagged by an AOE as you drop down to the ground before you hop back to the original position. So a DRG with poor timing / bad luck can get tagged by PBAOE attacks, line AOE attacks, OR wide area AOE attacks when they use Jump. Seems excessive.

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remove Power Surge and replace it with what exactly?

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Originally Posted by OptimalZedd

parser is working fine, even if its not 100% reliable, it gives you a pretty solid image of the damage dealt

it will always be better than eye balling or "feeling" mob getting down faster with 3 goon

i have almost identical stat, 415 STR, 260 determination, 470 crit rate

still it might be better for aoe, but not by much

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In everything I've run so far, it's BRD/SMN(Think Parser on DoT is buggy though) > BLM/DRG > MNK > WAR > PLD

Its about skill, not about gear. In AK I was out DPSing a full DL/Garuda Dragoon on my two-piece-of-DL-and-GC-gear/Ifrit Dragoon

Personally I think the only change that would be amazing for us is just adding in the classic enemy "miss" attacks when attacking us during the jump.

This would allow for us to have a lot of skill-based utility. For instance, we could offtank, and our armor is already decent enough for normal physical attacks it's just the big attacks + magic attacks that really hurt us. So we could offtank, and when the enemy uses their big non aoe attack (King's Will comes to mind from AK), then we could Jump and make the mob miss.

We already have partial utility vs. knockback effects such as Demon Wall, but adding the Auto-Dodge/Miss during the 1s animation would be amazing for us and the healers (a skilled Dragoon could theoretically make life easier for a healer because he wont have to heal us nearly as much as other DPS)

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Originally Posted by Layenem

So I don't want to come off as a dick, so don't take it that way.

Currently I'm in mostly Darklight/AK gear (ilvl 45-47 legs, hands, waist and 1 ring) and the Ifrit weapon and I'm doing 220-230 DPS on DRG. You might want to check the rotation if you're only at 200 because it sounds like (from what you're critting for) that you've got better gear then me.

The speed of the DRG I enjoy a lot so no complaints there. Definitely not the lowest DPS in instances I run (and this was before the DoTs were being read via the parser) and this is compared to characters that have full darklight/AK/Ifrit+ weapon, so on that note I can't agree.

But the rest I do agree with.

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yeah maybe im doing something wrong with drg, but also dont run the parser just as some guy on BG do, start parser > CD > rotation > rotation > CD > stop parser

you need at least 40k dmg

i dont know if we have right to post screen of parser here ...

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Originally Posted by MalcolmReynolds

Kiluvian's idea would be great for this. A 20 second CD on jump with scaled damage without returning you to the original position. I..........

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I would be happy with the current CD on JUMP if it just performed as a real Gap closer (no return) and gave Dragoons damage immunity throughout the animation and for a second after we land. Dragoons need to be about battlefield maneuverability.

All CD's in this game need to be looked at IMO. Take Mercy Stroke from Marauder as an example. At first glance it seems like a cool Execute ability that all Dragoons would want to pick up. Then you see that it's got a 90 sec CD. W...T...F??? Maybe if it came with obscene damage but it's 200 Potency. A 30 sec CD is more in line with an Execute IMO. It needs some kind of CD because of the health return but 90 seconds seems extreme.

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Originally Posted by Zoot

All CD's in this game need to be looked at IMO. Take Mercy Stroke from Marauder as an example. At first glance it seems like a cool Execute ability that all Dragoons would want to pick up. Then you see that it's got a 90 sec CD. W...T...F??? Maybe if it came with obscene damage but it's 200 Potency. A 30 sec CD is more in line with an Execute IMO. It needs some kind of CD because of the health return but 90 seconds seems extreme.

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Agree with this. I don't know why people keep suggesting picking up Mercy Stroke. Sure it's relatively powerful but that cooldown makes it not worth it at all. It's basically Jump with a 90 second CD without the benefit of Power Surge. I'd rather take a defensive ability and help out my healers out a bit.

Why not just double the potency of Jump attacks? or at least +50%; The cooldowns would be a lot more reasonable and the fact u lose out on 1 second or 2 of Dps otherwise would be made up with you landing one brutally crushing attack once a minute with jump. Spineshatter and the lv50 jump with their long cooldowns would just help increase your spike and not be as useless as they are.