Tanks Help me out

Can gunbreaker and dark knight wall to wall pull with no healer? There seems to be a rhetoric on the forums that all tanks are immortal now and healers are useless.

I'm fairly certain I've done runs of the Lv.100 dungeons where a GNB or DRK did a wall-to-wall pull, the only healing came from Eos's Embrace, and Excogitation never popped.

So, not quite no healing, but if the tank's HP never dropped below 50% the entire pull, how much danger were they in, really?

Gunbreaker has pretty much the same single target sustain as a paladin, with very similar mits, both are ver capable of wall to walling with no healer because they have high mitigation value with good self healing

DRK Can still wall to wall they have a full heal on 60's, aslong as you use your cooldowns properly it should be easy, honestly pulls on drk are almost as easy as warrior if you know what your doing.

Though it does depend on damage output a lot of the time, if dps aren't doing much you run out of resources

Heart of Corundum and Aurora's heal output is pretty dang good. GNB might have better survivability than PLD if we don't count Clemency honestly. I've solo'd some dungeon bosses with it in the past too (with consent! I asked if I should try to keep going or wipe after everyone else died like 15% into the fight and it ended up so painfully long).

DRK's harder but some good usage of TBN, Abyssal Drain, Shadowed Vigil and Living Dead can manage it. The difference in healing needed for a DRK that knows its kit and one that doesn't is very, very noticeable.

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Originally Posted by AmiableApkallu

I'm fairly certain I've done runs of the Lv.100 dungeons where a GNB or DRK did a wall-to-wall pull, the only healing came from Eos's Embrace, and Excogitation never popped.

So, not quite no healing, but if the tank's HP never dropped below 50% the entire pull, how much danger were they in, really?

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I get the same thing as well but from the other side. As DRK in Dawntrail dungeons I generally don’t see Shadowed Vigil’s new excog effect go off early, and only very rarely use Abyssal Drain for healing, because my health doesn’t get low. And this would happen [/i]before[/i] the 7.1 changes to Dark Mind, Dark Missionary, and Abyssal Drain. But I say all this as someone who isn’t great at keeping track of what the healer is using because I’m focusing on my own mitigation.

Hmm. I can see the problem better when dps perform well. Still not convinced majority of healers in df could keep up if tanks got their healing gutted. Tanks would need something in return for losing it

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Originally Posted by Reginald_Cain

Hmm. I can see the problem better when dps perform well. Still not convinced majority of healers in df could keep up if tanks got their healing gutted. Tanks would need something in return for losing it

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They would not. Believe it or not, but the heal potency we have is extremely overkill for dungeons. Dark Knight in fact had even less sustain than now and could still be played well in dungeons.

Tanks can be designed to make reducing damage their focal point over HP recovery. As for the sustain of the current tanks, it could be comfortably reduced with minimal issues.

WAR's Bloodwhetting heals could be made to trigger only once per weapon skill (like PLD spells) and it would still be 1600 + 400 effective heal potency every 25s, which is a hilarious lot on top of their 2 x 10% mitigation. GNB Aurora could be shortened for less total potency and it would still be good, same with Heart of Corundum heals. PLD spell healing could be cut by like 25% (400 -> 300) quite comfortably and Holy Sheltron could even have the regen halved with minimal issues.

Tanks have a bucketload of mitigation to begin with and then have even more recovery. Either they could make incoming tank damage actually be much higher to warrant all this healing (and get lazy players to use it), or they could cut over half of it with minimal repercussions.

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Originally Posted by Reginald_Cain

Hmm. I can see the problem better when dps perform well. Still not convinced majority of healers in df could keep up if tanks got their healing gutted. Tanks would need something in return for losing it

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

Tanks can be designed to make reducing damage their focal point over HP recovery. As for the sustain of the current tanks, it could be comfortably reduced with minimal issues.
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Tanks have a bucketload of mitigation to begin with and then have even more recovery. Either they could make incoming tank damage actually be much higher to warrant all this healing (and get lazy players to use it), or they could cut over half of it with minimal repercussions.

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It’s not necessarily the fact that tanks have healing as opposed to more mitigation, but that the end result is that tanks can stay alive well enough that they don’t require the healer to be playing the game in normal difficulty content. DRK was really strong in normal content before it even got the Abyssal Drain buff because pressing TBN three times in a single dungeon pull is really really strong, in addition to everything else it has.

Reducing tanks’s ability to stay alive means now you need both your tank and healer in duty roulette to know how to play the game, which would be simultaneously a blessing and a curse. But it would cause problems with high end content that’s designed with these kits in mind, like it’s a big deal that we can press TBN/Bloodwhetting/Sheltron/Corundum as many times as we can in DSR phase 6 because it has five tankbusters. I think the devs have put themselves into a corner in this regard, and if they ever want normal difficulty content to ask more of tanks/healers then they’d have to increase its damage but they might not be able to take away tank abilities unless other things change (like by moving the ability to keep tanks alive more towards just being healers’ responsibility, which again is both a blessing and curse).

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Originally Posted by Reginald_Cain

Hmm. I can see the problem better when dps perform well. Still not convinced majority of healers in df could keep up if tanks got their healing gutted. Tanks would need something in return for losing it

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Right now it could just be healers being lax because they don't really have to worry about healing the tank. If tank healing got gutted, healers would just have to learn to use their GCD heals and things would continue on as normal, just being a bit slower to do healers having less chances to AoE.

If a healer can no longer perform their basic duty of healing because the tank no longer has crazy sustain, then they probably shouldn't be playing a "healer" anymore.

Honestly I think this game could really benefit from ramping up the amount of damage enemies dish out, while transferring some tank healing to short CD mitigations that need to be properly managed, because right now the only time tanks die is if they fail a mechanic and get 1-shot, or don't pop a CD during the occasional tankbuster. It would also make healing more enjoyable as they'll be forced to use their entire kit instead of just spamming two DPS buttons most of the time.

I haven't had much trouble keeping myself alive during my dailies, but I have noticed there are moments where DRK's lack of party utility causes other players to die in cases where the other 3 tanks could've saved them.
regardless of whether or not this "matters in casual content", it feels bad to know that DRK's kit can't help its teammates as well as the other tanks can

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Originally Posted by Azurarok

Heart of Corundum and Aurora's heal output is pretty dang good. GNB might have better survivability than PLD if we don't count Clemency honestly. I've solo'd some dungeon bosses with it in the past too (with consent! I asked if I should try to keep going or wipe after everyone else died like 15% into the fight and it ended up so painfully long).

DRK's harder but some good usage of TBN, Abyssal Drain, Shadowed Vigil and Living Dead can manage it. The difference in healing needed for a DRK that knows its kit and one that doesn't is very, very noticeable.

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I'd disagree that drks harder to wall to wall, Abyssal drain is very underated, that along with how much sheer mitigation you get now with the darkmind/missonary changes plus TBN being great with all your mits makes dark very good in dungeon AOE. Drk's slightly behind on single target sustain but not by a lot, makes up with its mitigation value by far.

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Originally Posted by Reginald_Cain

Hmm. I can see the problem better when dps perform well. Still not convinced majority of healers in df could keep up if tanks got their healing gutted. Tanks would need something in return for losing it

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If I recall correctly, PLD gets all of their non-Clemency self-healing (self-HP restoration) after Lv.80, i.e., starting in Endwalker. I'm pretty sure healers have been keeping up with them just fine in all those Shadowbringers, Stormblood, etc. dungeons.

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Originally Posted by AmiableApkallu

If I recall correctly, PLD gets all of their non-Clemency self-healing (self-HP restoration) after Lv.80, i.e., starting in Endwalker. I'm pretty sure healers have been keeping up with them just fine in all those Shadowbringers, Stormblood, etc. dungeons.

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It's because people overvalue Self healing and don't realise the mitigation + self healing combo both being strong is why it feels too much, that with the lack of damage.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

I'd disagree that drks harder to wall to wall, Abyssal drain is very underated, that along with how much sheer mitigation you get now with the darkmind/missonary changes plus TBN being great with all your mits makes dark very good in dungeon AOE. Drk's slightly behind on single target sustain but not by a lot, makes up with its mitigation value by far.

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By that I meant more like you need to actually keep an eye on your hp and not throw it out on cooldown and/or space it out well with your other oGCDs. I think there's a little more room for error with GNB's Corundum and Aurora because of the way they both heal

It is possible but you need really good dps. And you cant do it on day 1 patch with the latest dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Derio

It is possible but you need really good dps. And you cant do it on day 1 patch with the latest dungeons.

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I'm not convinced, my pocket DRK did the new dungeon minimum ilvl because they spent the last five months crafting instead of gearing, I basically only had to step in because they refused to use living dead when they needed to.

The answer is that it depends.

Alone? You'll die.
With 2/3 good DPS? You'll kill the trash before they're even a danger.

The rhetoric that healers are useless is half true. In dungeon they exist to throw a party wide oGCD healing here and there and to res KO'd players.
Since trash pack damages are entirely focused on one target, 3/4 of the Healing kit is useless.

As a healer, it depends on the skill of the player. That said, from personal experience 90% of wall to wall pulls with Dark Knight have always resulted in me using majority of my spells. With other jobs, I dps more than heal.

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Originally Posted by Voryn

Reducing tanks’s ability to stay alive means now you need both your tank and healer in duty roulette to know how to play the game, which would be simultaneously a blessing and a curse. But it would cause problems with high end content that’s designed with these kits in mind, like it’s a big deal that we can press TBN/Bloodwhetting/Sheltron/Corundum as many times as we can in DSR phase 6 because it has five tankbusters. I think the devs have put themselves into a corner in this regard, and if they ever want normal difficulty content to ask more of tanks/healers then they’d have to increase its damage but they might not be able to take away tank abilities unless other things change (like by moving the ability to keep tanks alive more towards just being healers’ responsibility, which again is both a blessing and curse).

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I hardly think it's a problem. Tanks can keep their mitigation on their defensives if it's about busters. They don't need all the bloated healing that comes with it. Even in savage/ultimate tanks can take care of themselves without a healer in 99% of the cases.

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Originally Posted by Valence

I hardly think it's a problem. Tanks can keep their mitigation on their defensives if it's about busters. They don't need all the bloated healing that comes with it. Even in savage/ultimate tanks can take care of themselves without a healer in 99% of the cases.

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Problem is you go from not healing to the tank to healing them like once every minute because the mitigation, taking no damage from auto's is a big part into why tanks feel so invincible.

Sustain is only one part of the problem.

A DRK who knows how to properly rotate mits will barely take any damage. GNB has basically the same self healing as a Paladin. Unless your gear is way below par, healing is very rarely needed, usually only when the DPS is low and things take forever to die.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

Problem is you go from not healing to the tank to healing them like once every minute because the mitigation, taking no damage from auto's is a big part into why tanks feel so invincible.

Sustain is only one part of the problem.

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Depends of the fight. MIL at release for P5S and P8S notably, every auto ate like 20% of the tank HP bar. Force them to spread their mits more that way, and again, make healers take care of them, back then it was... still an afterthought because tanks could heal themselves anyway.
But more than anything, we've lost random crits and mini busters, so of course this is getting stale and plannable through spreadsheets.

It depends on your experience with the job, the dmg heaviness from mobs in the duty and your gear.
I have been whm main over 5 years now and I sometimes get tanks..gnb inclusive, who need little to 0 healing in a wall to wall pull. If I see a tank who mit well, don't drop hp too fast, and mobs who will die before the tank can reach 0hp I won't heal if I don't have asize or a lily I have to uncap.

I do not believe in healing someone who does a fine job healing themselves so for me... if my tank can handle themselves it's a huge plus.

I also believe it raise a players class experience and technical flair that they get a chance to relly on their own toolkit more than on mine, so thumbs up for wanting to experiment with being self sufficient in pulls.

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Originally Posted by AzizaToinette

It depends on your experience with the job, the dmg heaviness from mobs in the duty and your gear.
I have been whm main over 5 years now and I sometimes get tanks..gnb inclusive, who need little to 0 healing in a wall to wall pull. If I see a tank who mit well, don't drop hp too fast, and mobs who will die before the tank can reach 0hp I won't heal if I don't have asize or a lily I have to uncap.

I do not believe in healing someone who does a fine job healing themselves so for me... if my tank can handle themselves it's a huge plus.

I also believe it raise a players class experience and technical flair that they get a chance to relly on their own toolkit more than on mine, so thumbs up for wanting to experiment with being self sufficient in pulls.

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I'm of a similar mind here, which is why I usually would prefer if Healer jobs had more interesting combat flair (i.e. more interesting damage loops/flowcharts than 21111111111[...] or 33333333 for AOE). I mean either that or MMORPG content goes back to actually making trinity stuff more relevant again by turning damage up.

It's just that right now, incoming damage is too low for what insane sustain and mitigation tools we have + healer (and even tank) damage gameplay is boring. It's dreadful.

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Originally Posted by bundythenoob

I haven't had much trouble keeping myself alive during my dailies, but I have noticed there are moments where DRK's lack of party utility causes other players to die in cases where the other 3 tanks could've saved them.
regardless of whether or not this "matters in casual content", it feels bad to know that DRK's kit can't help its teammates as well as the other tanks can

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Dark knight is alright at high levels. You can preemptively mitigate with tbn and oblation and the finally moved dark missionary to level 70 which helped a lot. dark knight cant heal or regen the party but they pump out pretty solid damage and mitigate pretty good. At low levels you really feel the lack of a short cd mit like heart of stone, raw intuition or sheltron. it's weird that they haven't moved down tbn to the 50's some where

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Originally Posted by AzizaToinette

It depends on your experience with the job, the dmg heaviness from mobs in the duty and your gear.
I have been whm main over 5 years now and I sometimes get tanks..gnb inclusive, who need little to 0 healing in a wall to wall pull. If I see a tank who mit well, don't drop hp too fast, and mobs who will die before the tank can reach 0hp I won't heal if I don't have asize or a lily I have to uncap.

I do not believe in healing someone who does a fine job healing themselves so for me... if my tank can handle themselves it's a huge plus.

I also believe it raise a players class experience and technical flair that they get a chance to relly on their own toolkit more than on mine, so thumbs up for wanting to experiment with being self sufficient in pulls.

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Finally somebody who sees it the way I do! I think the current healing in dungeons is fine because the level of competence varies greatly between parties and i like taking stress away from my healer so they can use their dps tools (at least the tools they had before shadowbringers took 90% of them away T_T)

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Originally Posted by Valence

Depends of the fight. MIL at release for P5S and P8S notably, every auto ate like 20% of the tank HP bar. Force them to spread their mits more that way, and again, make healers take care of them, back then it was... still an afterthought because tanks could heal themselves anyway.
But more than anything, we've lost random crits and mini busters, so of course this is getting stale and plannable through spreadsheets.

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I did mention that sustain is only part of the problem, because i would still most certainly nerf it, warrior being a prime example but other tanks like paladin/gnb could lose some

But tackling the mitigation is very important, it's important to not just go "oh remove all sustain" as it can play into a jobs identity, y'know as a "Paladin" I want at least some healing related cooldowns (because SE will never make a melee based healer), as a Warrior I think cooldowns like equilibrium are nice just the regen and all the other stuff added, where now its not just a sustain cooldown, your entire kit has sustain which is a problem

I'd see it as more scaling back on the base kits rather then just tackling sustain which i think is the most healthy way of putting tanks back in line without taking away stuff directly, maybe warrior would need to be a exception because the state of bloodwhetting in AOE is not ok, every cooldown even your 40% having a heal attached is really poorly designed.

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Originally Posted by Reginald_Cain

Dark knight is alright at high levels. You can preemptively mitigate with tbn and oblation and the finally moved dark missionary to level 70 which helped a lot. dark knight cant heal or regen the party but they pump out pretty solid damage and mitigate pretty good. At low levels you really feel the lack of a short cd mit like heart of stone, raw intuition or sheltron. it's weird that they haven't moved down tbn to the 50's some where

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Honestly Obliation should be a self-use skill that is learned at a low level, then have a level 82 trait that allows you to cast it on others.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

I'd see it as more scaling back on the base kits rather then just tackling sustain which i think is the most healthy way of putting tanks back in line without taking away stuff directly, maybe warrior would need to be a exception because the state of bloodwhetting in AOE is not ok, every cooldown even your 40% having a heal attached is really poorly designed.

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I hate how they just keep giving warrior more healing. It's far more than what's required for dungeons, but in difficult content it still isn't as good as what the other tanks can do. I rather have the big shield or higher max HP that paladin and gunbreaker get on their 40% mitigation abilities than a slow heal over time as you typically save them for tankbusters.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

I did mention that sustain is only part of the problem, because i would still most certainly nerf it, warrior being a prime example but other tanks like paladin/gnb could lose some

But tackling the mitigation is very important, it's important to not just go "oh remove all sustain" as it can play into a jobs identity, y'know as a "Paladin" I want at least some healing related cooldowns (because SE will never make a melee based healer), as a Warrior I think cooldowns like equilibrium are nice just the regen and all the other stuff added, where now its not just a sustain cooldown, your entire kit has sustain which is a problem

I'd see it as more scaling back on the base kits rather then just tackling sustain which i think is the most healthy way of putting tanks back in line without taking away stuff directly, maybe warrior would need to be a exception because the state of bloodwhetting in AOE is not ok, every cooldown even your 40% having a heal attached is really poorly designed.

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I do agree, and I actually was a big fan of the clear design difference there was between PLD and WAR back in ARR/HW. WAR had no inherent mitigation, it was all about healing buffs and self healing to make up for it. It was a totally different experience than tanking as a PLD. But guess what current WAR does? It does MIT like any other tank, and SELF HEALS like there is no tomorrow (and no skill behind it either, which is another can of worms).

If we want to have mitigators, shields/barrier, self healing, leech heals, or anything else of flavor, then tanks should pick one, not all of them.

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Originally Posted by Valence

I do agree, and I actually was a big fan of the clear design difference there was between PLD and WAR back in ARR/HW. WAR had no inherent mitigation, it was all about healing buffs and self healing to make up for it. It was a totally different experience than tanking as a PLD. But guess what current WAR does? It does MIT like any other tank, and SELF HEALS like there is no tomorrow (and no skill behind it either, which is another can of worms).

If we want to have mitigators, shields/barrier, self healing, leech heals, or anything else of flavor, then tanks should pick one, not all of them.

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I feel like Warrior should be reworked to have a higherbase Hp, but has to choose between Mitigation or sustain (similar to how back in shb you had to choose between nascent/raw int) I think you obviously need some base mitigation value for current designs to rework to survive busters.

I don't personally want Paladin to only be about Mitigation as I love its current identity as this white holy magic tank, I do think honestly we need to tone down some of its mitigation value in some areas, though i wouldn't mind losing the selfish healing from the magic combo as life steal doesn't really feel like a paladin, I think Paladin should lean on that support, utility with decent mitigations but keep its incredibly long invul as it's a actual big downside paladin has to other tanks

Dark Knight, I would love to be barrier and life leach dependent with less actual percent mitigation, While gunbreaker sort of fits the jack of all trades so just toning down its actual current skills.


I mean theirs room for lots of different designs with tanks but all 4 are practically the same currently.

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Originally Posted by Reginald_Cain

Dark knight is alright at high levels.

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My apologies, my post was SUPPOSED to be about how DRK might be good in in higher level content but is suffering from zero party utility before lv70, whereas the other 3 tanks have plenty of party utility by then.
I know it doesn't pertain to the bloated sustain problem, but I also feel its important to bring up the lack of lower level party utility, as synced content makes up the majority of players' gameplay.
watching party members die when you KNOW another tank could've helped always feels bad

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Originally Posted by bundythenoob

My apologies, my post was SUPPOSED to be about how DRK might be good in in higher level content but is suffering from zero party utility before lv70, whereas the other 3 tanks have plenty of party utility by then.

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No need to apologize I think you're right about low level content on dark. tbn should have a weaker low level variant or just be shifted down to level 54 for one change.