The Black Mage simplification completely misses the point

So here's another thread about the changes to Black Mage. From 6.0 until now, Black Mage has been getting changes to make it easier and easier to play, so we can assume that SE thinks that each successive change still hasn't been enough. However, throughout the entirety of Endwalker and Dawntrail (with the sole exception of 7.0 BLM which was a rushed mess), skilled Black Mage players have been able to maintain full uptime using the tools the job has, in nearly all instanced content, without issue.

I would contend that the problem isn't that Black Mage hasn't got enough instant casts, or that the timer is too unforgiving. The problem that stops people sticking with the job is that the leveling experience completely fails to prepare you for max level content, and nearly ALL of the simplification that SE has done has been at the high levels of the job. At that point, new players will likely have already quit playing it.

For example, let's take a look at Ley Lines. You get Ley Lines at level 52, but you get Retrace at level 96. By the time you reach level 96, you should already have some idea of how to place Ley Lines. You've probable figured out that you should place it right near where the MT stands, and maybe that in the middle of the arena is a good spot. So why is the skill that makes LL easier and friendlier right near the end of the leveling experience?

Here's another one. Triplecast, and managing its two charges, is one of the most important tools in your arsenal for handling the movement in a level 90 or level 100 Savage raid. Most often you'll use Xenoglossy, weave triplecast, then start running around to do Alarm Pheromones or whatever. And when you do get triplecast? You only get it at level 66, and you don't even get a nice way to weave it until level 80 when you get instant Foul. That's 80 levels of missed opportunity where you could have been teaching people how to handle the job.

And finally, let's look at Despair. Which, most recently, was changed to be an instant cast...at level 100. If anyone levels BLM to 100 they're probably sticking to the job, so why are they making it easier to play right at the very top end?

TL;DR: I still maintain that BLM's difficulty is a job is overestimated a lot by the community, it simply makes you think about the content in a different, not necessarily harder way. The issue is that leveling the job fails to prepare people for the way it plays at max level, and that is due to the fact that despite SE's repeated changes to the job, the sub max level experience remains the same.

I keep saying that Black Mage suffers from the same problem Scholar does:

It's a hodgepodge of nowadays barely-fitting ideas that got cobbled together over the years.
Individually, each of those ideas are neat, and many of them solved problems at the time in regards to their job. But it's woefully outdated to have so many of them around.

In regards to this "top-level only" changes, I'd at the very least:

* Make Flare Star a trait-upgrade from Despair instead of an extra skill that forcibly needs Despair to be instant cast to fit. Make them both casted, both are also AoEs, Despair in a tiny 1y-3y radius (given its visual!), Flare Star in a wide 10y-15y radius. Flare Star also has more potency of course.
* Introduce the Fire/Ice spell without refresh vs Fire/Ice with refresh concept way earlier. It's weird how before Fire IV, the whole idea behind the job doesn't work the same way as after getting it. If anything, Fire IV would kinda be the ability you ought to start with?
* Make Triplecast a trait-upgrade from Swiftcast. With the short cast times now, it's not like the extra instant is needed any more. Declutters a bit, and feels conceptually sound that the "core" caster turns the single instant cast ability into a triple instant cast one!

Both of these changes would allow concepts to be introduced early that then naturally evolve. Could even have a Doublecast between Swiftcast and Triplecast.

You doomsayers are really getting annoying, the game is in dire need of fresh updates and job overhauls.

Most jobs are bloated because they kept adding new skill on top of new skill completly ignoring the hotkey problems when you play with keyboard and mouse.

Also the game became a lot more movement dependant, a job that has to stand still all the time is not viable anymore, black mage is barely playable without spellspeed.

why don't you try it out first and adapt, maybe it is good, instead of constantly whining about anything new, this is why the game got so stale , lack of updates.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Arohk

You doomsayers are really getting annoying, the game is in dire need of fresh updates and job overhauls.

Most jobs are bloated because they kept adding new skill on top of new skill completly ignoring the hotkey problems when you play with keyboard and mouse.

Also the game became a lot more movement dependant, a job that has to stand still all the time is not viable anymore, black mage is barely playable without spellspeed.

why don't you try it out first and adapt, maybe it is good, instead of constantly whining about anything new, this is why the game got so stale , lack of updates.

---

Maybe instead of ripping the casters apart because “movement” square enix actually tries to make fights that allows casters to cast

I’m playing a caster, I want to cast

If I wanted to not have casts I’d play a physical ranged or melee

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Arohk

You doomsayers are really getting annoying, the game is in dire need of fresh updates and job overhauls.

Most jobs are bloated because they kept adding new skill on top of new skill completly ignoring the hotkey problems when you play with keyboard and mouse.

Also the game became a lot more movement dependant, a job that has to stand still all the time is not viable anymore, black mage is barely playable without spellspeed.

why don't you try it out first and adapt, maybe it is good, instead of constantly whining about anything new, this is why the game got so stale , lack of updates.

---

From the sounds of this comment, it sounds like you're the one who hasn't actually tried out the job. Black Mage has more than enough movement in its kit to handle everything that's already in the game WITHOUT having to resort weird rotation tricks. Just using the job as it's expected to be played.

And if they can't design a fight around a caster that already has so many instant casts in its kit already, I think that says more about the lack of imagination from the fight designers than the design of Black Mage.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Carighan

I keep saying that Black Mage suffers from the same problem Scholar does:

It's a hodgepodge of nowadays barely-fitting ideas that got cobbled together over the years.
Individually, each of those ideas are neat, and many of them solved problems at the time in regards to their job. But it's woefully outdated to have so many of them around.

In regards to this "top-level only" changes, I'd at the very least:

* Make Flare Star a trait-upgrade from Despair instead of an extra skill that forcibly needs Despair to be instant cast to fit. Make them both casted, both are also AoEs, Despair in a tiny 1y-3y radius (given its visual!), Flare Star in a wide 10y-15y radius. Flare Star also has more potency of course.
* Introduce the Fire/Ice spell without refresh vs Fire/Ice with refresh concept way earlier. It's weird how before Fire IV, the whole idea behind the job doesn't work the same way as after getting it. If anything, Fire IV would kinda be the ability you ought to start with?
* Make Triplecast a trait-upgrade from Swiftcast. With the short cast times now, it's not like the extra instant is needed any more. Declutters a bit, and feels conceptually sound that the "core" caster turns the single instant cast ability into a triple instant cast one!

Both of these changes would allow concepts to be introduced early that then naturally evolve. Could even have a Doublecast between Swiftcast and Triplecast.

---

These are all decent ideas, but I think keeping Triplecast separate from Swift is better, especially since Swiftcast is a role action and Triplecast isn't. I'd also make Foul instant at all levels, and introduce Xenoglossy at a lower level to introduce the idea of an instant that enables weaving.

And I really hope they ditch the short cast times change. Massive change to the feel of the job for a very dubious payoff.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Realfoxy

So here's another thread about the changes to Black Mage. From 6.0 until now, Black Mage has been getting changes to make it easier and easier to play, so we can assume that SE thinks that each successive change still hasn't been enough. However, throughout the entirety of Endwalker and Dawntrail (with the sole exception of 7.0 BLM which was a rushed mess), skilled Black Mage players have been able to maintain full uptime using the tools the job has, in nearly all instanced content, without issue.

I would contend that the problem isn't that Black Mage hasn't got enough instant casts, or that the timer is too unforgiving. The problem that stops people sticking with the job is that the leveling experience completely fails to prepare you for max level content, and nearly ALL of the simplification that SE has done has been at the high levels of the job. At that point, new players will likely have already quit playing it.

For example, let's take a look at Ley Lines. You get Ley Lines at level 52, but you get Retrace at level 96. By the time you reach level 96, you should already have some idea of how to place Ley Lines. You've probable figured out that you should place it right near where the MT stands, and maybe that in the middle of the arena is a good spot. So why is the skill that makes LL easier and friendlier right near the end of the leveling experience?

Here's another one. Triplecast, and managing its two charges, is one of the most important tools in your arsenal for handling the movement in a level 90 or level 100 Savage raid. Most often you'll use Xenoglossy, weave triplecast, then start running around to do Alarm Pheromones or whatever. And when you do get triplecast? You only get it at level 66, and you don't even get a nice way to weave it until level 80 when you get instant Foul. That's 80 levels of missed opportunity where you could have been teaching people how to handle the job.

And finally, let's look at Despair. Which, most recently, was changed to be an instant cast...at level 100. If anyone levels BLM to 100 they're probably sticking to the job, so why are they making it easier to play right at the very top end?

TL;DR: I still maintain that BLM's difficulty is a job is overestimated a lot by the community, it simply makes you think about the content in a different, not necessarily harder way. The issue is that leveling the job fails to prepare people for the way it plays at max level, and that is due to the fact that despite SE's repeated changes to the job, the sub max level experience remains the same.

---

I don't disagree with your logic but I think the reasoning behind is that they're keeping BLM closer to what it was in previous expansions in said previous expansions' content. That's what they have always done with most jobs except with a couple of exceptions here and there (until they do rework them from scratch and then it becomes just whatever at all levels).
They're in fact not doing this for new players or accessibility, but simply to accommodate current max level battle content, which is why I find those changes even more ludicrous.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Realfoxy

From the sounds of this comment, it sounds like you're the one who hasn't actually tried out the job. Black Mage has more than enough movement in its kit to handle everything that's already in the game WITHOUT having to resort weird rotation tricks. Just using the job as it's expected to be played.

---

they can't stand dropping dps from being forced to use damaging gap closers outside buffs, I'd imagine they can't take being forced to spend an instant cast in a similarly lossy way

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Realfoxy

From the sounds of this comment, it sounds like you're the one who hasn't actually tried out the job.

---

I think i have played it enough to have a valid opinion on it, and i see enough trash players who have no clue how to play it.

I hope the next job that gets a massive overhaul is Bard, because that job is just total garbage.

Oh yes please, let's rework Bard completely! I'm sure nothing is going to go wrong!

- Burst shot into Refulgent arrow is now a guaranteed combo. Ladon Bite into Shadowbite is now a guaranteed combo.
- Repertoire has been deleted, and PP/Bloodletter/RoD are now simple OGCDs on a 15s recast.
- Refulgent Arrow / Shadowbite now grant 5 gauge.
- Apex Arrow is now on a 60s strict recast.
- Radiant Finale now grants 80 gauge.
- Dots consolidated into a single one and IJs has been removed.
- Songs are now exclusively used to decide which OGCD is available (PP/BLoodletter/RoD), and to unlock Radiant Finale as currently.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valence

Oh yes please, let's rework Bard completely! I'm sure nothing is going to go wrong!

- Burst shot into Refulgent arrow is now a guaranteed combo. Ladon Bite into Shadowbite is now a guaranteed combo.
- Repertoire has been deleted, and PP/Bloodletter/RoD are now simple OGCDs on a 15s recast.
- Refulgent Arrow / Shadowbite now grant 5 gauge.
- Apex Arrow is now on a 60s strict recast.
- Radiant Finale now grants 80 gauge.
- Dots consolidated into a single one and IJs has been removed.
- Songs are now exclusively used to decide which OGCD is available (PP/BLoodletter/RoD), and to unlock Radiant Finale as currently.

---

Not really what i had in mind, but a good start.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Arohk

Not really what i had in mind, but a good start.

---

Here is a question

What job exists in the game right now that you believe is both a good example of a job that contains complexity in a meaningful sense for people who want optimisation avenues but also is well designed

I’d like to know your barometer

Seeing the reply, I'd wager summoner.

It ain't fun for anyone to lose aspects of their favorite jobs that they enjoy.
I have plenty of experience with that, and i do really hope these Black Mage changes are reverted for the people who enjoy Black mage for what it is now and was before.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Arohk

I think i have played it enough to have a valid opinion on it, and i see enough trash players who have no clue how to play it.

I hope the next job that gets a massive overhaul is Bard, because that job is just total garbage.

---

Nice, nice. Now let's see some Savage or Ultimate completions on BLM.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Here is a question

What job exists in the game right now that you believe is both a good example of a job that contains complexity in a meaningful sense for people who want optimisation avenues but also is well designed

I’d like to know your barometer

---

I am not a fan of class complexity, at least when it comes to the core gameplay. I would say ninja is in a decent spot, it would be perfect if the button bloat were reduced.

My main melee job now is viper if that isnt telling.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Realfoxy

Nice, nice. Now let's see some Savage or Ultimate completions on BLM.

---

I have cleared savage bosses with a tank, healer, caster and melee at least once, i dont like black mage as it is now. Why would i play that if there are better alternatives. I mostl, used it in bozja because of flare Star.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Arohk

I am not a fan of class complexity, at least when it comes to the core gameplay. I would say ninja is in a decent spot, it would be perfect if the button bloat were reduced.

My main melee job now is viper if that isnt telling.

---

Okay so do you fall into the camp of of “complexity should fall on the encounter” or “all complexity is bad”

Yes, complex bosses are better than complex classes.

Black Mage changes suck for the depth of the job. Sad to see them happening. With that said, I'm having a random, unrelated thought to the conversation at hand. Here it is::cool:

You know, if I has a week 6 (basically 7) clear on the easiest raid tier we've ever had, while simultaneously requiring good RNG for blues and purples, I'd feel pretty silly if I tried to speak as an authority on the game, gameplay, and jobs I don't actively play.

You know, if I was like that, I'd bet that I'd have failed to improve at the game after a decade of playing it, proving undeniably that I simply do not understand the game at a high level, making me feel even more silly for trying to speak on it as if I were playing at a high level.

Sure would be embarrassing if I was that sort of person. Luckily, I am not, and I am able to see the big picture of the game as a whole, and have come to the only correct conclusion: the black mage changes are balls.

Edit: I had 1 more additional, unrelated thought: If I was the sort of person in which I hypothesized earlier, I bet I would have also purchased a UCOB clear. It just feels like something I would do if I had that big an ego in spite of my mediocrity. Boy, I sure am happy to not be that sort of person.

If you think you can attack me personaly with your subtle insults, that is not gonna work buddy.

I raided exclusivly with party finder, and i have limited time to play in the evening, do you even know how frustrating and time consuming it is when you join group after group failing at the very first mechanics of a fight even though it was supposed to be a progress party for later phases.

I was stuck at M3 for three weeks because people failing Fusefield over and over, making almost no progress.

And i worked my ass off for that one UCOB clear, my static fell apart apart after Endwalker was done, so keep your accusations to yourself.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Arohk

If you think you can attack me personaly with your subtle insults, that is not gonna work buddy.

I raided exclusivly with party finder, and i have limited time to play in the evening, do you even know how frustrating and time consuming it is when you join group after group failing at the very first mechanics of a fight even though it was supposed to be a progress party for later phases.

I was stuck at M3 for three weeks because people failing Fusefield over and over, making almost no progress.

And i worked my ass off for that one UCOB clear, my static fell apart apart after Endwalker was done, so keep your accusations to yourself.

---

Who are you talking to? This is a pretty clear divergence from the current topic of the thread, as well as your previous messages! Though I can't deny you feel this way for some reason, I feel it is my duty to give advice on such a severe matter. When you feel attacked, it's best to not go on the defensive, as that can lead some people to feel that the attacker had actual merit! Instead, I'd advise one to simply make a cup of tea, laugh at the attempt, and move on.

Also, congrats on the UCOB clear! In spite of it being in Endwalker, it being the 2nd easiest ultimate at the time, and there being no indications of the clear being fully recorded or legitimate, a clear is a clear. Congrats! Wear that title with all the pride you deserve for it!

You sure talk a lot about people's logs for someone that hides behind a logless alt.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Arohk

I am not a fan of class complexity, at least when it comes to the core gameplay. I would say ninja is in a decent spot, it would be perfect if the button bloat were reduced.

My main melee job now is viper if that isnt telling.

---

You don't even play rphys seriously, so why does it matter so much to you? Are you just that person that doesn't play a job but still asking the devs to cater to them and butcher the job regardless? Encounter mechanics are already 99% of pve duties those days, so you have that already going for you, yet you demand more?
If anything class complexity on rphys could be the primary solution to account for the lack of uptime considerations, and bring the role up to a more competitive level on damage.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valence

You don't even play rphys seriously, so why does it matter so much to you? .

---

because they all play like A SS

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valence

You sure talk a lot about people's logs for someone that hides behind a logless alt.



You don't even play rphys seriously, so why does it matter so much to you? Are you just that person that doesn't play a job but still asking the devs to cater to them and butcher the job regardless? Encounter mechanics are already 99% of pve duties those days, so you have that already going for you, yet you demand more?
If anything class complexity on rphys could be the primary solution to account for the lack of uptime considerations, and bring the role up to a more competitive level on damage.

---

Who's talking about logs? You don't need logs to see when someone clears, silly. Even if it would be very odd for someone to clear an ult and for all 8 people to not be logging, now that you mention it.

As for the other part. Frustrating, isn't it? I will say, being on an alt (to protect oneself from the toxic kids of this community) looks much, much better than being on a main with hidden logs. One is hiding from retribution. The other, themselves. And competent pf group makes, come to think of it.

Ah yes, the usual "This job doesn't appeal to my sensibilities, it's trash and you need to change it. Am I actually going to play it after you reworked it for me and alienated it's original players? Hell no, I'm going to bring it into two expert dungeons and then forget about it for the rest of the expansion."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SubmarineAlt

Who's talking about logs? You don't need logs to see when someone clears, silly. Even if it would be very odd for someone to clear an ult and for all 8 people to not be logging, now that you mention it.

As for the other part. Frustrating, isn't it? I will say, being on an alt (to protect oneself from the toxic kids of this community) looks much, much better than being on a main with hidden logs. One is hiding from retribution. The other, themselves. And competent pf group makes, come to think of it.

---

Alright, but what was that part about blues and purples that you mentioned again?
I don't find it especially frustrating. I just find it amusing, because it makes you look like a hypocrite no matter the excuses you make for it, since in fine, everything is hidden the same.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valence

Alright, but what was that part about blues and purples that you mentioned again?
I don't find it especially frustrating. I just find it amusing.

---

Blue and purple are just colors! Do they have a connotation I'm unfamiliar with? I was obviously referring to loot beams from random loot in the critically acclaimed mmorpg Runescape!

Besides, that was another post, not the one you originally quoted. Please do try to keep up. Square removed Machinist's 2 biggest fail states this expansion. That should have freed up your mental stack enough to keep pace with the conversation at hand, eh?

You... You don't still find ways to overcap heat, or drift drill, right?... Please let me know. If we're to converse further, I'll need to know if I need to adjust my writing style and contextual references to suit your needs!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Arohk

Yes, complex bosses are better than complex classes.

---

Both Bosses and Classes should be "complex" A game without unique class design that is trying to be a "MMORPG" is fundamentally a flawed design especially one like ff14 as it has very limitations on it's design.

We shouldn't focus only on one gameplay aspect, only focusing on "boss" design leaves very little reason to have 21 different classes in the first place especially if they all play very similar, If I were to make a game that only focused on fight design then we shouldn't design a job system in the first place, much less keep adding 2 new ones every expansion.

Class design bolsters encounter design, having good class variety and gameplay gives those bosses more replay value as playing on a different class Should offer a different gameplay experience.

Interesting class design doesn't have to come at the expense of people who want a more casual experience such as having some jobs made for people who want something more simple, while leaving room for complex classes for people who want that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Arohk

You doomsayers are really getting annoying, the game is in dire need of fresh updates and job overhauls.

Most jobs are bloated because they kept adding new skill on top of new skill completly ignoring the hotkey problems when you play with keyboard and mouse.

Also the game became a lot more movement dependant, a job that has to stand still all the time is not viable anymore, black mage is barely playable without spellspeed.

why don't you try it out first and adapt, maybe it is good, instead of constantly whining about anything new, this is why the game got so stale , lack of updates.

---

1$ per post from square enix community team should net you 1130$. Are you going to buy 5070ti or 9070xt by shilling for multidollar company?

Not super surprised at the changes given it was clear for most casuals the DDR style of combat and turret gameplay of the BLM do not gel well together at all. Still kinda sad to lose the longer cast times but the combat just doesn't allow for it for most players and I think SE realise that so it had to go. I will give it a go and see how it plays, I do still enjoy DT BLM a lot since I was never really much of a non standard player. I was mostly hoping for smth to make flare star feel better, it's animation and potency don't feel that amazing for being a big fire phase finisher, as well as very slow cast speed blm feeling nicer. I liked the slow but big boomie BLM over sps BLM.

I get the point many put of non standard lines allowed for ppl to keep uptime pretty easily, but it's kinda obvious that wouldn't be allowed to remain the case imo. Standard rotation that devs intended should be able to cope with all the movement without needing so many different lines, for the avg player. Plenty groups don't even want a blm because of the lack of utility and the exp of BLM players just straight up griefing runs greeding casts etc. I've seen plenty ppl in balance saying they will go grief some pf groups to practice. That's pretty bad, it just makes people dislike raiding with BLM.

I think they aught to let us just cast thunder when we want. It's still punishing enough to recast early as it is, it would be nice to be able to double dot things without hassle. I'm honestly not bothered to lose the astral fire/umbral ice timers though.

Curious to see what happens to the job in 8.0, I really enjoyed the little turret that booms playstyle of the BLM and I am sad the current direction of the combat encounters is not allowing for it. On the other hand I do enjoy the encounters on melee etc, but those jobs have their difficulties elsewhere.

Or maybe it's the DDR that has to go.

If the increased DDR mechanics shoehorn every job into the exact same design mold because nothing else functions anymore, then yes, maybe it's the DDR design that needs to change.


On a side note, I'm also concerned about the melee buffs to supposedly compensate for more downtime.

Because I bet they entirely miss the point of melee uptime. It was supposed to be hard, you were supposed to take risks for your uptime and greed GCDs with last second dodges or unconventional strategies and good party coordination.
It was not supposed to be literally impossible.
Running around doing nothing for 30% or more of a fight is not fun gameplay.

I'm curious why people are arguing that Black mage doesn't work in "DDR" gameplay. The whole point of black mage is trying to learn the mechs so you know when to use your movement tools and when you can place leylines and not have the need to move. Almost like Black mage already had enough movement tools and the "DDR" gameplay is getting used as a excuse for why they should make black mage into a boring dull job like every other job in the game. Mages are just physical ranged, Tanks don't need to boss position or aggro manage, or even support the group much, Melees don't really care about positional nor are really challenged much with down time instances, healers barely heal and have one damage button.

What's even the point of having a class system if all we are meant to enjoy is the encounters, why do we need 2 new jobs every expansion??? The design and direction of this game makes zero sense and it's easy to see why numbers of people are getting disinterested when one of the core fundamentals to the game (the classes) have no meaning and have been getting less and less meaningful with each expansion.

Something seriously needs to change I rather have a imbalanced mess of a job system if it means they actually felt meaningful rather then this false balance of making everything the same and "focus only on encounter"

I'm also tired of "bro enjoy the encounter design" like you know what would make those encounters more enjoyable? If my job interacted differently in that said encounter compared to other jobs. Maybe we actually need both.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Absurdity

On a side note, I'm also concerned about the melee buffs to supposedly compensate for more downtime.

Because I bet they entirely miss the point of melee uptime. It was supposed to be hard, you were supposed to take risks for your uptime and greed GCDs with last second dodges or unconventional strategies and good party coordination.
It was not supposed to be literally impossible.
Running around doing nothing for 30% or more of a fight is not fun gameplay.

---

Well, I don't think this is going to happen in a system where everything is too binary. In the modern DDR model, it's either you can, or you can't. There is very little in between, bosses reposition themselves all the time to make sure the DDR pattern doesn't deviate, every fight is scripted to the T, there is only generally one target opportunity on the battlefield, and eventually the only metric they can play onto is fast disconnects from the boss to mildly challenge the melees, or to create bigger disconnects that result in GCD losses.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rithy255

I'm curious why people are arguing that Black mage doesn't work in "DDR" gameplay. The whole point of black mage is trying to learn the mechs so you know when to use your movement tools and when you can place leylines and not have the need to move. Almost like Black mage already had enough movement tools and the "DDR" gameplay is getting used as a excuse for why they should make black mage into a boring dull job like every other job in the game. Mages are just physical ranged, Tanks don't need to boss position or aggro manage, or even support the group much, Melees don't really care about positional nor are really challenged much with down time instances, healers barely heal and have one damage button.

What's even the point of having a class system if all we are meant to enjoy is the encounters, why do we need 2 new jobs every expansion??? The design and direction of this game makes zero sense and it's easy to see why numbers of people are getting disinterested when one of the core fundamentals to the game (the classes) have no meaning and have been getting less and less meaningful with each expansion.

Something seriously needs to change I rather have a imbalanced mess of a job system if it means they actually felt meaningful rather then this false balance of making everything the same and "focus only on encounter"

I'm also tired of "bro enjoy the encounter design" like you know what would make those encounters more enjoyable? If my job interacted differently in that said encounter compared to other jobs. Maybe we actually need both.

---

Personally I do think most decent BLM players or informed players know that BLM's kit works and can be used for it (cannot say for 7.2 yet but there is very little reason it wouldnt, unless their vaunted new encounter design is actually wild).
But Aelin above still does have a point. It makes it very difficulty and unapproachable for the average player. It's still one of the remaining jobs that is punishing enough that you can not only drop casts and full uptime, but also drop enochian, drop flarestar, etc. The mobility toolkit is extensive but also probably the hardest to use (no weave slots, a lot of technical tools), and the job actually lost mobility in 7.0 with the disappearance of sharpcast, until 7.1 made Despair and Fire Paradox instants. And also, the inability to swap to ice on demand with non standard like it used to, or not as easily. It's what makes the job interesting to a lot of veterans and mains of course.
I just think that the DDR system is unfortunately something that is preventing the jobs to be very expressive else you end up with a game ultimately catered to hardcore players only.
Now you're gonna tell me, we need easy and hard jobs, and frankly, perhaps, but I hate that idea. I'd rather have jobs with accessibility and high ceiling all across the board and in my eyes it's the DDR that's in the way.

Agreed either way..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Arohk

You doomsayers are really getting annoying, the game is in dire need of fresh updates and job overhauls.

---

So the solution is to mess with the one job people are happy with and is in no need of an overhaul, over all the jobs that people are begging for updates to?

Genius plan.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valence

...

Personally I do think most decent BLM players or informed players know that BLM's kit works and can be used for it (cannot say for 7.2 yet but there is very little reason it wouldnt, unless their vaunted new encounter design is actually wild).
But Aelin above still does have a point. It makes it very difficulty and unapproachable for the average player. It's still one of the remaining jobs that is punishing enough that you can not only drop casts and full uptime, but also drop enochian, drop flarestar, etc. The mobility toolkit is extensive but also probably the hardest to use (no weave slots, a lot of technical tools), and the job actually lost mobility in 7.0 with the disappearance of sharpcast, until 7.1 made Despair and Fire Paradox instants. And also, the inability to swap to ice on demand with non standard like it used to, or not as easily. It's what makes the job interesting to a lot of veterans and mains of course.
I just think that the DDR system is unfortunately something that is preventing the jobs to be very expressive else you end up with a game ultimately catered to hardcore players only.
Now you're gonna tell me, we need easy and hard jobs, and frankly, perhaps, but I hate that idea. I'd rather have jobs with accessibility and high ceiling all across the board and in my eyes it's the DDR that's in the way.

Agreed either way..

---

I think the job could survive having the Astral Fire timer removed, but reworking the cast times is a huge mistake.

There are ways to make BLM easier for less experienced players, while still allowing the more experienced black mages to enjoy optimizing DPS. SE have simply chosen not to do that by throwing away the job's nuance and complexity.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Arohk

why don't you try it out first and adapt, maybe it is good, instead of constantly whining about anything new, this is why the game got so stale , lack of updates.

---

We have.

I used to play Dragoon and loved the oGCD heavy nature of it. Alas, some people who didn't even play the job whined it was "too hard!!!" and now Geirskogul is a boring button I press once a minute. Likewise, Dark Knight's entire gimmick was first leaning into proc based gameplay and augmenting its abilities through Dark Arts. The former was gutted early on while the latter was neutered into a bland spammer that now doesn't even require MP management. DT took it one step further and made both gauges little more than window dressing. How about Bard, who used to have a nuanced gameplay balancing its MP for Foe's, which was unique to physical based jobs, alongside DoT management. Once again, the former was axed completely while DoTs became longer and longer, to the point you hardly even realize they're on the boss.

Some changes aren't awful. Paladin became one of my favourite tanks to play after the rework. Although, I feel for people who enjoyed what it was. At least I had Dark Knight and Warrior. They no longer have their preferred playstyle. And that right there is what upsets people. We already have a near cast free Caster in Summoner thanks to it being lobotomized. Even before EW, Red Mage reasonably filled that playstyle, albeit with some complexity if you wanted to play it at a higher level. Why do we need another caster to be baby's first? It reminds me so much of people who cried DRK wasn't a DPS back in Heavensward and refused to turn on tank stance because, "I'm a DPS!!!!" Or how they refused to play the easier tank in Warrior because "I LIKE THE BIG SWORD WAAAAAH!!!"

Imagine going to a restaurant advertising a variety of different options only to discover everything on the menu is actually just a different flavour of chicken. It's not even that it's necessarily bad, but rather very bland. Welcome to FFXIV job design in a nutshell nowadays: bland.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

We have.

...

And that right there is what upsets people. We already have a near cast free Caster in Summoner thanks to it being lobotomized. Even before EW, Red Mage reasonably filled that playstyle, albeit with some complexity if you wanted to play it at a higher level. Why do we need another caster to be baby's first? It reminds me so much of people who cried DRK wasn't a DPS back in Heavensward and refused to turn on tank stance because, "I'm a DPS!!!!" Or how they refused to play the easier tank in Warrior because "I LIKE THE BIG SWORD WAAAAAH!!!"

Imagine going to a restaurant advertising a variety of different options only to discover everything on the menu is actually just a different flavour of chicken. It's not even that it's necessarily bad, but rather very bland. Welcome to FFXIV job design in a nutshell nowadays: bland.

---

The dumb thing about the BLM changes is that we literally just had a caster added to the game which has nice and friendly slidecasts, it's called Pictomancer. Sure it's a little overpowered right now but that's fixable. So anyone that wanted that style of gameplay can just go play PCT, but no, we have to homogenise BLM to appeal to people that don't even enjoy playing it right now.