Why people are bad at the game, and why they never learn to play it.

I stumbled upon this video on YouTube that gives a pretty good explanation, the game fails at teaching new players how to play and never challenges them in any way to force learning.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2BrPCwsXFM

The game slowly introduces various mechanics in different settings. People simply don't learn them, period. That's how you get players in ShB dungeons still running away with a stack. Largely, the playerbase ignores every learning opportunity the game throws around, and the community lets every learning opportunity slide because people just quickly want to be done with their duty. Or use the fig leaf of "the ToS is too draconic" as excuse. Especially mentors, who should be the ones speaking up precisely when not asked. The people who are asking question or want advice are the same people that could also look up the answers on their own. It is very much the ones that don't who need to be engaged with actively.

If you look at logs for on content Alliance raids, you will often see people with uptime in the range of 60-70%. This isn't a "wrong rotation" issue, or "my class wasn't explained". People are legit afk for a third of the fight. In a combat game. No amount of tutorial, difficulty wall, explanation or anything, will overcome people's unwillingness to actually play the game that they pay for and sink thousands of hours into.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AllenThyl

The game slowly introduces various mechanics in different settings. People simply don't learn them, period. That's how you get players in ShB dungeons still running away with a stack. Largely, the playerbase ignores every learning opportunity the game throws around, and the community lets every learning opportunity slide because people just quickly want to be done with their duty. Or use the fig leaf of "the ToS is too draconic" as excuse. Especially mentors, who should be the ones speaking up precisely when not asked. The people who are asking question or want advice are the same people that could also look up the answers on their own. It is very much the ones that don't who need to be engaged with actively.

If you look at logs for on content Alliance raids, you will often see people with uptime in the range of 60-70%. This isn't a "wrong rotation" issue, or "my class wasn't explained". People are legit afk for a third of the fight. In a combat game. No amount of tutorial, difficulty wall, explanation or anything, will overcome people's unwillingness to actually play the game that they pay for and sink thousands of hours into.

---

Alliance Raids are super casual so I expect casuals, I expect players who play like they're playing a party game. I'm not expecting players to learn the rotation of their Job, I just expect them to have fun first.

If people want to learn then we have difficulty in the form of Extreme, Savage and Ultimate for that and those players who engage in that content will learn to play at a much higher level.

The game at its base is designed for ease and while the direction seems to be slowly aiming towards a faster paced direction I don't think the MSQ really prepares players for it.

I actually advocate for casual content being casual as someone who enjoys more difficult content, I will say I haven't -quite- dipped my toes into Ultimate but Extreme and Savage I've enjoyed. After a long day at work or a stressful week I actually appreciate the option to have causal modes that I can fat finger my way through.

I have the option for coordinated content at my disposal.

That said if someone is straight up AFKing in content I will be kicking them or attempting to as Alliance Raids make that tricky.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alyx-Greywind

Alliance Raids are super casual so I expect casuals, I expect players who play like they're playing a party game. I'm not expecting players to learn the rotation of their Job, I just expect them to have fun first.

---

I understand, I really really do. But fundamentally, this is an action combat game. The overwhelming amount of content in the game itself is combat. And I find it very much a legit question, why there are so many people playing an action combat game, when their definition of "fun at the game" always translates to "being an absolute slacker in combat content", never to "I making an effort in this combat game that I pay for". We aren't talking about savage level performance. We are talking about people with all classes at lvl 100, not using AoEs in ShB+ dungeons. Who then legit get defensive when asked to AoE. This isn't about a bard overcapping their arrow charge a few times, or using the AoE version instead of the single target version, or some ninja accidently fat fingering their mudras and using doton on a boss once or twice. We are talking about people who do it constantly. Who have 70% uptime not because they are legit afk from the game, but because they don't press buttons sometimes during a fight. And none of this has to do with the difficulty of the content. It's an attitude thing. And no amount of game design can fix attitude.

The thing is, this kind of argument doesn't fly in basically every other activity people engage in. If you join a tennis club, but are fundamentally not interested in playing tennis, people will rightly see that as a bad thing. Probably condemn this behavior, possibly even kicking this person out of the club. This isn't even about the skill level, as it is generally accepted and expected that different people will have different skill levels. But when someone is categorically unable to participate in tennis itself (disabilities of any kind, too slow reflexes, any reason really), it is not expected that the others bend around backwards to accommodate this individual. But in FF14, if someone is legit afk in Frontline, and you ask the alliance to kick them, you will get more pushback for asking that, than this person gets for afking. It just cannot be understated the stupidity you will experience in chat. There are players who will tell you to "shut up and just play the game" while there is an afker literally not playing the game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alyx-Greywind

I actually advocate for casual content being casual as someone who enjoys more difficult content, I will say I haven't -quite- dipped my toes into Ultimate but Extreme and Savage I've enjoyed. After a long day at work or a stressful week I actually appreciate the option to have causal modes that I can fat finger my way through.

---

Here is the thing though, this isn't a single player game. The moment you get grouped with other people, it's not just your own time anymore. And then it basically becomes a cultural question, of whether or not it is acceptable to impose upon others by playing the game badly. Generally, in the Western hemisphere, the answer is "of course it is, what do I care about other people? I just want to have 'fun' however I want!". That's how you get so many leechers and afkers in PvP, and a community that at large enables and defends this behavior despite it being against the ToS. That's how you get all the drunk and high people in dungeons who die to the most obvious and telegraphed AoE. That's how you get tanks who don't mitigate, DPS that don't AoE, healers that cure1 fish, Samurais that don't even use the purple part of their rotation, or don't use the dot. If someone doesn't think that imposing on others by being bad at the game they play is something bad, then they don't see anything wrong in the first place. No amount of tutorials can fix this cultural attitude.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AllenThyl

I understand, I really really do. But fundamentally, this is an action combat game. The overwhelming amount of content in the game itself is combat. And I find it very much a legit question, why there are so many people playing an action combat game, when their definition of "fun at the game" always translates to "being an absolute slacker in combat content", never to "I making an effort in this combat game that I pay for".

---

I wouldn't consider it an ARPG at all, if you want to look at ARPG style MMOs then at bare minimum you can look at ESO. FFXIV has been pushed as this casual Story centric MMO where they want to accommodate as many players as possible. The development has been pushed with the casual audience in mine for a long while now and that's why we are seeing pushback from the casual audience.

Id also like to comment on your mention of Sports. See when engaging in Sports you more than likely signed up knowing what you were getting into whether that is a casual fun family outing or a Competitive Event. Its a little unfair to compare sports to a game. You can play Sports at any level, I'm disabled but I'd still engage in something fun like Rounders for a laugh! No one is expecting professional or even a base knowledge when you go into these Sports.

Sure as we engage more we get better at the thing we are engaging in but they doesn't mean we automatically start playing with playing with more competitive players. I can use an example of my own. I like playing Darts, I'm alright at Darts but would I want to play with professionals? No, I have no interest, I just like playing casually. The same can be said about any game. Some players really do just want to get home, press their flashy buttons in Roulettes and enjoy the power fantasy, that's very much ok.

The options are there to explore harder content, we have Extremes, we have Savages and we have Ultimates. Not everyone who engages in an activity wants to pursue an increases competitive angle of that very same activity. It's ok for people to just enjoy the activity they are doing so long as the difficulty is outlined as being for them.

This is why Raiding in MMOs is purely optional, this is why no one is forcing anyone into Mythic Plus in WoW, why no one is obliged to compete in NiM Ops in Swtor or play in Ranked Lobbies in the myriad of PvP modes in most MMOs. This is very much the same for real life where no one is obliged to run within a Competitive Team for any Sports they play frequently. Its casual, let players enjoy their space, we got Content we can run for challenge.

I dont wanna make excuse but some of you sound like ur saying 99.9% of us are bad. The game has various mechanics throughout the game show up. If you refuse to learn thats on you. Infomation exist outside the game to learn your class. People being bad at the game is there choice. I went to balance discord to learn dancer. If I can do it others can. I read the ingame help guide to learn melding. All that jazz. I honestly would say I have grown as a player. Yet if ppl are struggling at lvl 100 look up your class stop pretending info does not exist. Thats just you being lazy and not putting in the effort required to learn. Some rando on M2s told us who takes optimizing classes on savage and ults seriously yet he came there with ilvl 690 gear on. No ppl just refuse to do better and get better is all.

Whilst munching wheat thins and sipping grape juice, I happened upon this post and wondered...Do I see people here that actually think others are duty bound to buy this game and play for others delight??? Simply amazing..Here's a clue. NO, no and NO

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Arohk

I stumbled upon this video on YouTube that gives a pretty good explanation, the game fails at teaching new players how to play and never challenges them in any way to force learning.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2BrPCwsXFM

---

Whilst they could perhaps 'advertise' it more, they did add "Tactical Training Exercises" to Hall of the Novice in 7.1 -
From the patch notes:
"Through tactical training, players will have a chance to learn about various party mechanics, enemy attacks, and effect markers commonly seen when undertaking duties.

The combat guide found in the Hall of the Novice also offers a brief overview of these topics.

After completing tactical training exercises 1 through 3, you will receive a ring that grants increased experience points to Disciples of War and Magic up to level 60."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Carin-Eri

Whilst they could perhaps 'advertise' it more, they did add "Tactical Training Exercises" to Hall of the Novice in 7.1 -
From the patch notes:
"Through tactical training, players will have a chance to learn about various party mechanics, enemy attacks, and effect markers commonly seen when undertaking duties.

The combat guide found in the Hall of the Novice also offers a brief overview of these topics.

After completing tactical training exercises 1 through 3, you will receive a ring that grants increased experience points to Disciples of War and Magic up to level 60."

---

I have played through it out of curiousiy, but it is not mandatory to do it (should be mandatory before entering crystal tower or somewhere around that point)

It only teaches the most common mechanics which is fine, better than nothing i guess.

I would suggest they add some more stages of this for more advanced mechanics and markers, like Enumerals (1-8), also there should be a stage with a somewhat close dps or heal check, so you teach dps players that uptime is important and healers that spamming Cure 1 isnt enough. (i always see melee players running away from bosses when they get the smallest aoe marker on their head instead of staying close)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Besame

Whilst munching wheat thins and sipping grape juice, I happened upon this post and wondered...Do I see people here that actually think others are duty bound to buy this game and play for others delight??? Simply amazing..Here's a clue. NO, no and NO

---

While sitting here eating ramen I happen upon this gem stone of a comment I assume this person finds it funny to waste other ppl time and hold them prisoner in duties. For shame. Ppl need to earn to pay or just realize if you cant play this.might not be the game for you. Its plain simple concept. If your hodinh ppl back in savage cause u refuse to do better i guess those 7 other ppl need to bend the knee to that one player. If 7 ppl in utimates know the fight but the one person refuses to learn dont kick him or her god no. Keepp them there they payed 60.00 to play this game who are we to disband pf and statics cause of one oerson who refuses to do better right. Lol

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zakuyia

While sitting here eating ramen I happen upon this gem stone of a comment I assume this person finds it funny to waste other ppl time and hold them prisoner in duties. For shame. Ppl need to earn to pay or just realize if you cant play this.might not be the game for you. Its plain simple concept. If your hodinh ppl back in savage cause u refuse to do better i guess those 7 other ppl need to bend the knee to that one player. If 7 ppl in utimates know the fight but the one person refuses to learn dont kick him or her god no. Keepp them there they payed 60.00 to play this game who are we to disband pf and statics cause of one oerson who refuses to do better right. Lol

---

You do realize that you're referring to an extremely small proportion of the playerbase when you refer to ultimates, right? We're talking about 5% of the players- then how many And then an even smaller amount fall into joining and not knowing the fight? Right- I'll grant that it happens, but those are likely the outliers.

As Alyx said, there is casual content where there is going to be a mix of players, and in that mix of players some are going to want to aim for higher level content at one point, some want a bit of challenge, but some want to just relax and have some fun- that doesn't " mean "afk and do nothing" should be acceptable. As the majority of players remain at this level and rarely/never do more challenging content, but do many other ting - crafting, RP- I would also say- no, it is not an ARPG, it's not "fundamentally an action combat game "- that is an important part of the game, but it would not account for the game lasting this long.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alyx-Greywind

I wouldn't consider it an ARPG at all, if you want to look at ARPG style MMOs then at bare minimum you can look at ESO. FFXIV has been pushed as this casual Story centric MMO where they want to accommodate as many players as possible. The development has been pushed with the casual audience in mine for a long while now and that's why we are seeing pushback from the casual audience.

---

None of it changes the fact that the core gameplay of THIS game is an Action RPG. When creating a character, you HAVE to choose a combat class. Access to other, non-combat content is gated by progression in combat content and behind reaching certain levels in a combat class. Yes, the combat maybe not as fast or snappy compared to others, all very correct assessments. But it still is fundamentally an Action RPG, combat is in real time, both the player character and npcs are executing their actions without waiting or regard for one another. And the main gameplay loop is combat. It's not a tactical RPG, it's not turn based, it's not a shooter, not a grand strategy game, not a card game, not an economic simulator, no matter which side content is available.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alyx-Greywind

Id also like to comment on your mention of Sports. See when engaging in Sports you more than likely signed up knowing what you were getting into whether that is a casual fun family outing or a Competitive Event. Its a little unfair to compare sports to a game. You can play Sports at any level, I'm disabled but I'd still engage in something fun like Rounders for a laugh! No one is expecting professional or even a base knowledge when you go into these Sports.

---

No, it's not an unfair comparison, why should it? Many sports are games, meaning activities within a confined spatial and temporal context and played following an agreed upon rule set. People engage with them for the sake of engaging with this specific type of game. Even if someone has other interests like "getting fit", if they choose one sport, they have chosen that particular sport. Why then exactly is it so outlandish to expect that the people who have chosen THIS game, spend thousands of hours and quite a lot of money on it as well, to be at least baseline competent at it. I mean, the video in the op lists a few examples of baseline failures like tanks single-pulling, healers cure1 fishing, and dps not using AoE. We can also add a few more examples like ice mages and non-finisher samurais. To circle back to your particular sports, do you accept and play with people who can't even hold the bat or throw the ball, like at all? I think not.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alyx-Greywind

Snip 2nd part

---

And THIS is precisely the point I am trying to get across here. Participation in THIS GAME is already purely optional. No one is forced to play this game, at all. And activities like PvP, or even dungeon content with other players (thanks to duty supports / trusts) is also optional. Why then is people not even being able to do the bare minimum (no one is talking about savage level performance) when being grouped others, something that should be tolerated? Again, this is a cultural question. Someone who doesn't value other people's time and enjoyment, will of course see nothing wrong in being absolute dead weight to their group at all times. This person will see absolutely nothing wrong with afking in Frontline. Or even in ranked PvP. Or having to go afk for 10-15 minute in the beginning of a dungeon. Or not even learning the base mechanics of the job they are currently playing.

It comes off as rather disingenuous when the discussion turns to comparing people who are being AFK to people who are not performing at an optional level. They are not equivalent.
Now, whether it should be acceptable, as a community, to party with people who are AFK in a duty, or in Frontline- is one discussion, and there are multiple threads, in the PvP forum, on people's experiences on just that topic.

However, in a collaborative game, especially in one with random parties, pre-formed parties, and multiple levels of content difficulty, with multiple types of players, all with varied interests- it comes off as vastly overly simplistic to see that there is one single, common tolerated view amongst all players of what is acceptable in all of these situations.

Square recently improved the Hall of the Novice, if they added additional tutorials or job guides I would be all for it- however you would still find people who are "sub-optimal" and don't care- as long as they still enjoy the game, and can complete the content. With respect to the people who they are completing it with them - well- they either don't mind doing the slight bit more extra, don't mind if a dungeon takes 2 minutes or 5 minutes more, or want to help them.

These topics always infuriate me because it always boils down to, every single time...elitism and the idea that one cannot have their fun in savage, extreme, and ultimate content as long as somewhere out there, some slacker (read, majority of the playerbase) is having fun engaging in content that isn't up to those standards.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by IDontPetLalas

It comes off as rather disingenuous when the discussion turns to comparing people who are being AFK to people who are not performing at an optional level. They are not equivalent.

---

It's only "disingenuous" because you are a raging contrarian. The context of this discussion is the video linked in the OP, which lists behavior like cure1 fishing healers and dps not using aoes in dungeons. But you probably didn't even bother skimming the video, just coming in here to pick some fight however you can for the updoots or something. And yes, these behaviors are equivalent, because they are essentially dismissive of the other people's interest just to get personal rewards. It's like showing up to a double badminton match without a racket and with no intention to move. And while that is a perfectly legal way to play Badminton within the framework of the rules, the other 3 might not see this kind of behavior as conducive to their version of a "fun badminton experience".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by IDontPetLalas

However, in a collaborative game, especially in one with random parties, pre-formed parties, and multiple levels of content difficulty, with multiple types of players, all with varied interests- it comes off as vastly overly simplistic to see that there is one single, common tolerated view amongst all players of what is acceptable in all of these situations.

---

If someone queues for a combat duty, the completion of the combat duty should be their interest in the first place. People who aren't interested in completing the combat duty should not be queuing for said combat duty in the first place. The fact that this kind of behavior is normalized pretty much ONLY within the video game context is completely asinine. It's video game addiction, nothing else. People need help and therapy to get their addiction under control, not being carried through content they don't want to engage with in the first place.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by IDontPetLalas

With respect to the people who they are completing it with them - well- they either don't mind doing the slight bit more extra, don't mind if a dungeon takes 2 minutes or 5 minutes more, or want to help them.

---

And there we have it, the real reason no amount game design will ever improve the skill of people not even doing the bare minimum to pull at least some of their weight: The enabler community. As I said, practically every learning opportunity is either passively or actively wasted.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jaxtaro

These topics always infuriate me because it always boils down to, every single time...elitism and the idea that one cannot have their fun in savage, extreme, and ultimate content as long as somewhere out there, some slacker (read, majority of the playerbase) is having fun engaging in content that isn't up to those standards.

---

All discussion so far has been explicitly framed with regards to people not even doing the bare minimum like using AoE in a dungeon as dps. But hey, good for you to ignore all that and to stick it to those dang elitists! Gotta collect all them updoots or something.

I've personally stopped counting the number of Tanks that are so slow and only take one pack at a time, or the Heals that die on bosses and that I have to finish while keeping the 2 Dps alive.

As a result, I've ended up only doing dungeons in Tanks, because I get bored waiting for a Tank that's too slow, even if the wait is longer.
I prefer to make my whole party run like that, so they can just follow me...

And all that, the 60% of parties in Expert where it takes me nearly 20 to 25 minutes to finish, when I'm bored, I leave.

Raid alliances take 1 to 2 runs to stop dying, or die on the final boss when things get messy.
Those who die over and over don't really make an effort, the game is 11 years old, and the combat mechanics have remained constant.

Ps: What really bothers me is that the 7.1 dungeon is an ease compared to the level 100 dungeons of 7.0...
All because people were crying that it was too hard... It was actually a bit more fun, except maybe the funfair, which was annoying with its add mechs that immobilize you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jaxtaro

These topics always infuriate me because it always boils down to, every single time...elitism and the idea that one cannot have their fun in savage, extreme, and ultimate content as long as somewhere out there, some slacker (read, majority of the playerbase) is having fun engaging in content that isn't up to those standards.

---

Let me guess, you didn't watch the video, because this has nothing to do with elitism.

here is one example i just experienced this week,

I Did Leveling roulette , as Warrior.

I get Orogenesis (lvl 99 dungeon) , i look at the Party list and see three F players, which already gave me a bad feeling.

I do the first pull, the Scholar spamming Physik on me(nothing else, just spamming Physik), even though i am full health, and i am Warrior, so i dont even need heals.
The trash pack lived for at least twice as long as usually, after asking why he is healing with physik and not doing damage, i get no response, so i leave the party, let some other foolish tank deal with these people.

Could i have cleared the dungeon? yes easily, could i have done it in under 30 minutes? probably not . Going at Snails pace simply is NOT fun.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jaxtaro

These topics always infuriate me because it always boils down to, every single time...elitism and the idea that one cannot have their fun in savage, extreme, and ultimate content as long as somewhere out there, some slacker (read, majority of the playerbase) is having fun engaging in content that isn't up to those standards.

---

"Fun?"

I'm sorry, but if playing poorly or sub-optimally is what you consider fun, then you can have that with your friends. As a mostly solo player, while I don't expect perfection and try to be friendly, but I'm not your friend to be messing with my time. Whether it's DF or PF, I'm there to fill a role and complete the instance so I can go my merry way.

Throwing the word "elitism" around is reckless, as I don't think people who just want to get the job done is like that. Pointing something out like a Dancer not using Closed Position on their fellow DPS for example, and their reason for doing so is because it's not Ultimate is a problem. People like you who are probably enabling this don't let the player grow and learn how to play their class well.

This becomes a vicious cycle until they meet the wrong one and tells them off, causing more stress.

Be better.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by VanillaWafer

"Fun?"

I'm sorry, but if playing poorly or sub-optimally is what you consider fun, then you can have that with your friends. As a mostly solo player, while I don't expect perfection and try to be friendly, but I'm not your friend to be messing with my time. Whether it's DF or PF, I'm there to fill a role and complete the instance so I can go my merry way.

Throwing the word "elitism" around is reckless, as I don't think people who just want to get the job done is like that. Pointing something out like a Dancer not using Closed Position on their fellow DPS for example, and their reason for doing so is because it's not Ultimate is a problem. People like you who are probably enabling this don't let the player grow and learn how to play their class well.

This becomes a vicious cycle until they meet the wrong one and tells them off, causing more stress.

Be better.

---

I thought the TOS covered this? You're able to Vote Kick people if you feel like your playstyles are incompatible? There's always going to be discourse when it comes to player performance, always has been and it's nothing new to FFXIV. When you enter the public domain you will meet all kinds of players. If you're unable to reconcile your differences with other players then you Vote Kick.

Sadly you're entering into content designed to be jumped into and you'll meet players of all different skill. The best you can do is be polite and handle the situation as it comes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alyx-Greywind

I thought the TOS covered this? You're able to Vote Kick people if you feel like your playstyles are incompatible? There's always going to be discourse when it comes to player performance, always has been and it's nothing new to FFXIV. When you enter the public domain you will meet all kinds of players. If you're unable to reconcile your differences with other players then you Vote Kick.

Sadly you're entering into content designed to be jumped into and you'll meet players of all different skill. The best you can do is be polite and handle the situation as it comes.

---

I am aware of this, but I don't use Vote Kick unless it's absolutely necessary and other players are in agreement. Sometimes these players come in twos or threes, and their friends enable their behavior. When that happens, then I have no problem dropping the instance and happily eat the 30 minute penalty.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AllenThyl

And there we have it, the real reason no amount game design will ever improve the skill of people not even doing the bare minimum to pull at least some of their weight: The enabler community. As I said, practically every learning opportunity is either passively or actively wasted.

---

i agree with you. it's gotten substantially worse in the time that i've been playing, to the point where i've been kicked from dungeons for asking people to do the very bare minimum like using their aoe skills on multiple targets. just recently i had a 30 minute run of the 97 dungeon because neither of the dps used their aoe skills at any point.

the issue seems to be that there's a disparity in what people consider the 'bare minimum' in this game. to me, that's actively doing your best. you don't have to play like the top 5% or anything, but i mean like using aoes on multiple enemies, doing damage when there's no healing needed, using your mitigation, wall to wall, using your dots and buffs, etc. but to someone else, that sounds like i'm asking a lot, and maybe their only requirement is that you're pressing literally any button. and before anyone wants to cry elitism, this is not an elitism problem. there are plenty of casual players who do all the things i've listed. like it was mentioned above, it's a fundamental difference in the way people view other peoples' time. and unfortunately that's not really a problem ffxiv can fix.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AllenThyl

It's only "disingenuous" because you are a raging contrarian. The context of this discussion is the video linked in the OP, which lists behavior like cure1 fishing healers and dps not using aoes in dungeons. But you probably didn't even bother skimming the video, just coming in here to pick some fight however you can for the updoots or something. And yes, these behaviors are equivalent, because they are essentially dismissive of the other people's interest just to get personal rewards. It's like showing up to a double badminton match without a racket and with no intention to move. And while that is a perfectly legal way to play Badminton within the framework of the rules, the other 3 might not see this kind of behavior as conducive to their version of a "fun badminton experience".



If someone queues for a combat duty, the completion of the combat duty should be their interest in the first place. People who aren't interested in completing the combat duty should not be queuing for said combat duty in the first place. The fact that this kind of behavior is normalized pretty much ONLY within the video game context is completely asinine. It's video game addiction, nothing else. People need help and therapy to get their addiction under control, not being carried through content they don't want to engage with in the first place.





nd there we have it, the real reason no amount game design will ever improve the skill of people not even doing the bare minimum to pull at least some of their weight: The enabler community. As I said, practically every learning opportunity is either passively or actively wasted.



All discussion so far has been explicitly framed with regards to people not even doing the bare minimum like using AoE in a dungeon as dps. But hey, good for you to ignore all that and to stick it to those dang elitists! Gotta collect all them updoots or something.

---

A raging contrarian? Is that anything like the Raging Grannies? LMAO, and what in the world is an "updoot? I honestly don't know why you're obsessed with thinking that I want to fight, I don't care, I just want to follow a discussion, lol.
In addition, I never, inferred, nor encouraged that people should queue for a duty with the intention of not completing it, and I would question why you would even question why some people would want to assist others who are less skilled in an MMORPG? I didn't say that it was done with the intent not to help them improve- you somehow concluded that , it seems to further your own argument. Not to listen to anyone else. Note that I didn't refer to anyone as "elitist" , I haven't "stuck it' to anyone.

So, to conclude- any fighting rests in your own imagination, and as for your precious "updoots", here take them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by IDontPetLalas

Note that I didn't refer to anyone as "elitist" , I haven't "stuck it' to anyone.

---

Please reread the post, that elitist comment was not directed at you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by VanillaWafer

Please reread the post, that elitist comment was not directed at you.

---

I appreciate the suggestion, consider that I was being proactive, in any case once was enough, thank you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Arohk

I have played through it out of curiousiy, but it is not mandatory to do it (should be mandatory before entering crystal tower or somewhere around that point)

It only teaches the most common mechanics which is fine, better than nothing i guess.

I would suggest they add some more stages of this for more advanced mechanics and markers, like Enumerals (1-8), also there should be a stage with a somewhat close dps or heal check, so you teach dps players that uptime is important and healers that spamming Cure 1 isnt enough. (i always see melee players running away from bosses when they get the smallest aoe marker on their head instead of staying close)

---

They tried to cover the most common mechanics you meet in a dungeon/raid and I think that's a good starting point for most newbies. We need to keep in mind the new tutorials unlock for lv.15 adventurers before they take on their first dungeon. Throwing too many complicated mechanics at them from the get go with no real instance hands on experience might scare/confuse them since it is a lot to take it for someone without experience.

The FFXIV community is understanding enough (from my experience) to explain mechanics on wipes and get together through a dungeon. A player telling you in a dungeon when and how to use Esuna is worth 100x more than the automated tutorial telling it to you without the context of the impending Doom insta-kill! :D

All discussion so far has been explicitly framed with regards to people not even doing the bare minimum like using AoE in a dungeon as dps.

No it hasn't, it's been wildly all over the place, such as being big mad that tank isn't pulling fast enough, to throwing around terms like "lazy", "holding people prisoner", even referring to uptime while parousing the logs that are against TOS precisely because of this reason, etc. None of that is in the spirit of the video, or at identifying and addressing play that you determine to be unacceptable, as though people are performing puppets at your beck and call.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jaxtaro

All discussion so far has been explicitly framed with regards to people not even doing the bare minimum like using AoE in a dungeon as dps.

No it hasn't, it's been wildly all over the place, such as being big mad that tank isn't pulling fast enough, to throwing around terms like "lazy", "holding people prisoner", even referring to uptime while parousing the logs that are against TOS precisely because of this reason, etc. None of that is in the spirit of the video, or at identifying and addressing play that you determine to be unacceptable, as though people are performing puppets at your beck and call.

---

My man, you write a lot, and it's all very dramatic, but you say very little.
Tell us then, in clear and easy terms, what do YOU think is the very baseline competence at this game that should be brought into, let's say, an expert dungeon (i.e. current max level content)? Nothing? At least a little bit? Should a tank have tank stance on, or is it ok if they don't? Should a healer heal at least a little bit? Or is it also ok if they don't? Should a healer do dps if there is nothing to heal, or is it ok if they basically stand around the whole fight healing nothing, thanks to tanks pumping out enough healing to keep the party alive, so there isn't even any need for a healer in the first place? How about people who are just afk and on follow? Is that also ok? Or should everyone at least contribute a little bit? Should DPS at least attempt to d do their rotation, or is it okay if they just use whatever has the coolest animation? I mention the last one, because I once had a dragoon in EW expert roulette who would spam their Heaven's Trust skill, which is the 3rd part of the combo, meaning they constantly only did 100 potency. But it looks cool, I guess. So come on man, put some fishes on the table (or whatever the expression in your locality is), and actually contribute to this discussion as well.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jaxtaro

All discussion so far has been explicitly framed with regards to people not even doing the bare minimum like using AoE in a dungeon as dps.

No it hasn't, it's been wildly all over the place, such as being big mad that tank isn't pulling fast enough, to throwing around terms like "lazy", "holding people prisoner", even referring to uptime while parousing the logs that are against TOS precisely because of this reason, etc. None of that is in the spirit of the video, or at identifying and addressing play that you determine to be unacceptable, as though people are performing puppets at your beck and call.

---

I agree. My days doing dungeons for enjoyment are over. The last 5 yrs of gameplay here I only do them when forced in MSQ. I always did dungeons as a lowly bard and managed to receive almost 1100 coms along the way. gee, I guess I aoe'd hehe. I am one that enjoys actually talking a bit to teammates before a boss pull and thanking them after, seeing the sights in new places and never gets upset at a tank that doesn't pull 2+ aoe packs at a time. I am the "oddball" it seems, however, after almost 30 yrs of consistant MMO gaming I reserve that right :}.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AllenThyl

My man, you write a lot, and it's all very dramatic, but you say very little.
Tell us then, in clear and easy terms, what do YOU think is the very baseline competence at this game that should be brought into, let's say, an expert dungeon (i.e. current max level content)? Nothing? At least a little bit? Should a tank have tank stance on, or is it ok if they don't? Should a healer heal at least a little bit? Or is it also ok if they don't? Should a healer do dps if there is nothing to heal, or is it ok if they basically stand around the whole fight healing nothing, thanks to tanks pumping out enough healing to keep the party alive, so there isn't even any need for a healer in the first place? How about people who are just afk and on follow? Is that also ok? Or should everyone at least contribute a little bit? Should DPS at least attempt to d do their rotation, or is it okay if they just use whatever has the coolest animation? I mention the last one, because I once had a dragoon in EW expert roulette who would spam their Heaven's Trust skill, which is the 3rd part of the combo, meaning they constantly only did 100 potency. But it looks cool, I guess. So come on man, put some fishes on the table (or whatever the expression in your locality is), and actually contribute to this discussion as well.

---

Yeah, it's probably a good thing that I don't insist on good performance, as you have a long way to go before your snide little attempted insults are even marginally up to par.

The base level competence is simply to be able to queue up and contribute in their role. If a tank has their stance on and moves forward through the dungeon keeping aggro, it's fine by me, I can live through it. If the healer can stay alive and everyone stays alive, it's fine by me. For DPS it's even lower since even then, they can be carried while dead for the most part.

A far bigger problem is toxic teammates pretending that they have accomplished something by beating up on people over content they have on farm status, like to 50th time they did Alexandria.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jaxtaro

Yeah, it's probably a good thing that I don't insist on good performance

---

Yeah, probably is.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jaxtaro

YThe base level competence is simply to be able to queue up and contribute in their role. If a tank has their stance on and moves forward through the dungeon keeping aggro, it's fine by me, I can live through it. If the healer can stay alive and everyone stays alive, it's fine by me.

---

Oh, so you DO have an expectation regarding the performance of people. Because I did have to endure a lvl 60 dungeon once with a tank who didn't active their tank stance for the first 5 minutes, and only used single target attacks, so I couldn't use any of my skills, because that tank had trouble just keeping aggro from the healer who was only healing that tank. As well as healers who simply refused to heal. Good thing we are in agreement for at least those two specific cases that people should to better.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jaxtaro

For DPS it's even lower since even then, they can be carried while dead for the most part.

---

Why? No really, why? Why is it that the dps role get a pass to be completely useless, while tanks and healers have to fulfill at least the basic functions of their roll? Because it's possible? Quite frankly, your attitude is pretty toxic in that regard. You enable the worst kind of leechers with that kind of thinking. The worst thing about this is, that you are so lacking in empathy, you don't even understand how this kind of "just carry me" attitude causes other people to be frustrated. People who queue as tanks and healers have to do basically all the work, not only for their own role, but also to carry lazy dps. As VanillaWaver said, the people who get grouped in duty finder are not friends. And it is incredibly disrespectful and rude to demand and expect strangers to show a level of patience and understanding for non-participation in a game that is usually only found between people with genuine history.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jaxtaro

YA far bigger problem is toxic teammates pretending that they have accomplished something by beating up on people over content they have on farm status, like to 50th time they did Alexandria.

---

Allow me to be frank here. I think YOU are so used to being carried through content, you don't even know what an experience a group made out of people with your attitude is. When I do mentor roulette, I sometimes get to join a dungeon in the aftermath of such a group. With 12+ mins already elapsed, and with luck the 1st boss killed. Where everyone frustrated each other, because everyone was barely doing the minimum, often even less. The tank would not mitigate at all, but pull large. The healer was cure 1 fishing and not even using the proc when it happened. DPS didn't bother as well, so naturally every pull ended in disaster, since the mobs didn't die fast enough, thus overwhelming what little healing output the healer could be arsed to do.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AllenThyl

Yeah, probably is.

Oh, so you DO have an expectation regarding the performance of people. ... Good thing we are in agreement for at least those two specific cases that people should to better.

---

Yes, of course, there are super basic things that are clearly reasinable expectations, and your experiences justify frustration in this case.

Quote:

---

Why? No really, why? Why is it that the dps role get a pass to be completely useless, while tanks and healers have to fulfill at least the basic functions of their roll?

---

Because they generally have much less value than the other two roles, especially tanks. The only time they would not be carryable is in the presence of triggers like timers, or if healer MP were an actual resource which required conservation. None of these are true in normal content where this topic deals with outside of super rare duties with DPS checks, like Atherochemical plant kind of has.. You've seen it a hundred times, tank survives and solos 2/3 of a boss fight. DPS can't carry a box of Kleenex in group content, and without carry potential, there comes lower expectations. That's just the way it is.

Quote:

---

Because it's possible? Quite frankly, your attitude is pretty toxic ... frustrated

---

.

See above for the ACTUAL reasons and not your pulpit proclomations and moral grandstanding.

You ARE right about one thing however, I don't care, even a little that someone is frustrated in a duty finder duty at the rate of progress. This is not out of a lack of empathy, but out of disgust for the egocentrism of someone who joins a duty finder whose entire premise is to carry, then is mad thatbthey are carrying. That extends even further to someone with a flower who is being an insufferable egotist.

Quote:

---

People who queue as tanks and healers have to do basically all the work, not only for their own role, but also to carry lazy dps

---

.

You don't "have" to do anything, you choose to join a duty to derive the benefit from carrying people, that you are frustrated by your choice is an attitude problem that you need to resolve.

Quote:

---

Allow me to be frank here. I think YOU are so used to being carried through content, you don't even know what an experience a group made out of people with your attitude is. . ...

---

So yeah, you would be wrong. I tend to put any content on farm status within a week of it being released. I tend to use duty support to get to know the content where the entire team of NPC's exist to be inefficient, but be programmed to get boss mechanics, so I guess if I'm "carried" by anyone it's a team of NPC's. If I join where real people exist, I already know the encounters, and play hyper efficiently. I simply don't expect other people in duty support to be copies of me or have the same philosophy as me. I want to be a source of calm fun, not shrill toxicity.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Naoki34

And all that, the 60% of parties in Expert where it takes me nearly 20 to 25 minutes to finish, when I'm bored, I leave.

[...]

Ps: What really bothers me is that the 7.1 dungeon is an ease compared to the level 100 dungeons of 7.0...
All because people were crying that it was too hard... It was actually a bit more fun, except maybe the funfair, which was annoying with its add mechs that immobilize you.

---

You must be the most unluckiest person in the world, because I'm on the same data center, and for years, the vast majority of of expert roulettes I've done belong to the 15 to 20 min window.

About the dungeon I don't think the the new dungeons are easier. the problem is that at 7.0, we all had the same ilvl, the right ilvl to run them.
With 7.1, they have to think about the guys that will comme out of 7.0 with their 690 gear. It has to be doable for them. Except most the players that played during the 7.0 where between 710 and 720, even 730 for raiders. basically the average player is between 20 a 30 (even 40 for some) ilvl points above what the dungeon is scaled for (maybe 5 points less, the 7.1 dungeaon might require 695 gear).

BTW, some people in this thread seem to have a serious ego problem... "ThEy HaVe To ThInK tO wHaT i WaNt WhIlE i IgNoRe WhAt ThEy WaNT". The video is kinda make good points, and I don't know how it devolved to some some angry egoist screeching so fast.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jaxtaro

Yes, of course, there are super basic things that are clearly reasinable expectations, and your experiences justify frustration in this case.

---

Why though? Why is it reasonable to expect healers and tanks to do their basic function, but DPS are exempt from the same kind of expectation doing their role (i.e. damage).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jaxtaro

Because they generally have much less value than the other two roles, especially tanks.

---

Why? DPS can tank, not as well as tanks, yes, but they can. Similarly, tanks and healers do damage, but not as well DPS. So again, why do tanks and healers have to fulfill their main roll, but DPS are given a free pass?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jaxtaro

The only time they would not be carryable is in the presence of triggers like timers, or if healer MP were an actual resource which required conservation.

---

The first 2 levelling dungeons of every expansion can be quite spicy even for experienced people when doing wall to wall pulls (especially for some tanks due to lack of mitigation tools at that level). DPS not doing their job can lead to tanks running out of mitigations and healers having to pump out GCD heals. And that actually can wipe a group.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jaxtaro

You've seen it a hundred times, tank survives and solos 2/3 of a boss fight. DPS can't carry a box of Kleenex in group content, and without carry potential, there comes lower expectations. That's just the way it is.

---

Ohh, "that's just the way it is" ... I see. Why precisely does that kind of argument only apply to lazy DPS? Why doesn't it apply to people expecting DPS to do their job? I mean, that's just the way it is, "git gud or git kicked". Also, should I introduce you to the "the tank held the party hostage for half an hour" crowd? I'm sure this would be an amazing conversation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jaxtaro

You ARE right about one thing however, I don't care, even a little that someone is frustrated in a duty finder duty at the rate of progress. This is not out of a lack of empathy, but out of disgust for the egocentrism of someone who joins a duty finder whose entire premise is to carry, then is mad thatbthey are carrying. That extends even further to someone with a flower who is being an insufferable egotist.

---

No, don't delude yourself here, that is complete lack of empathy. Literally. You have shown yourself so far to be completely unable to understand that other people value their time as well. The main issue of essentialism is the attribution of characteristics in the absence of actions that would justify these characteristics. You so far have been the most egocentrical and delusion poster in here, with you expecting that the healers and tanks should be carrying the whole run on top of performing the additional duties that come with these rolls. But I am really happy to see you post here, because usually the leechers with this attitude keep their mouth shut in these discussions so as to not have the spotlight shone on them. But I presume the constant emboldening by the enabler community has rotted away any leftovers of humility.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jaxtaro

You don't "have" to do anything, you choose to join a duty to derive the benefit from carrying people, that you are frustrated by your choice is an attitude problem that you need to resolve.

---

Ooohh, is that so? So when I queue for a duty directly, I get to be the lazy bum demanding other people to carry me? :D
The main issue here is, that you don't even understand how damaging and toxic this attitude is. You don't understand how the duty finder experience will be negatively impacted when a critical mass of "I don't care, I'm just here for fun" players is reached and normal raids get vote abandoned because there aren't enough people who understand how to solve the mechanics. I have experienced Royal City of Rabanstre runs fall apart at the 2nd boss, because not enough people were able to dodge the mechanics, so there wasn't enough dps on the sand orbs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jaxtaro

So yeah, you would be wrong. I tend to put any content on farm status within a week of it being released. I tend to use duty support to get to know the content where the entire team of NPC's exist to be inefficient, but be programmed to get boss mechanics, so I guess if I'm "carried" by anyone it's a team of NPC's. If I join where real people exist, I already know the encounters, and play hyper efficiently. I simply don't expect other people in duty support to be copies of me or have the same philosophy as me. I want to be a source of calm fun, not shrill toxicity.

---

*snort*
You want to be a source of "calm fun", but you don't care if you are a major source of "silent frustration", do you?
Also, what the heck does "put any content on farm status within a week" even mean? Are you progging the Allied Society dailies or what? "Play hyper efficiently" ... and what did you optimize for that efficiency? Lowest number of button presses to not risk getting kicked for appearing afk? Because it's obviously not clear speed you are going for, given your cavalier attitude towards baseline expectations for DPS players.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AllenThyl

Why though? Why is it reasonable to expect healers and tanks to do their basic function, but DPS are exempt from the same kind of expectation doing their role (i.e. damage). .

---

At any point, did you see anyone in this discussion say that DPS are exempt from basic requirements? No, what you saw was that standards are lower because encounter design makes their value negligible enough that one can be completely missing and it has no impact on the binary success or failure of the duty. This doesn't exempt them from engaging at a minimum level.

Quote:

---

Why? DPS can tank, not as well as tanks, yes, but they can..

---

No they can't, because they have no way of reliably controlling aggro. They can sometimes temporarily survive if focused, but that's not tanking. Tanking is a binary. You either have the tools or you don't, and DPS don't havr the tools.

Quote:

---

Similarly, tanks and healers do damage, but not as well DPS.

---

I see you're entirely unfamiliar with the gaming concept of stackability, and how it influences encounter design.

Damage, as a function stacks. All members of a group can do it simultaneously, whereas Tanking doesn't, it is unique to tanks, as is healing to healers. Both of those roles are essential in a binary pass/fail condition. There are pass/fail conditions to ensure that "if tank does not do minimum performance of job, then fail", which holds true also for healers. This means that if you are to succeed at the bare minimum of finishing a duty, you must perform at the if/then level.

This isn't opinion, or players' expectations, this is just plain old encounter design. DPS very very rarely has a pass/fail condition, and even when they do, it is set so low that the likelihood of it affecting the outcome of a normal duty is so low as to be nonexistent.

Quote:

---

The first 2 levelling dungeons of every expansion can be quite spicy even for experienced people when doing wall to wall pulls (especially for some tanks due to lack of mitigation tools at that level). DPS not doing their job can lead to tanks running out of mitigations and healers having to pump out GCD heals. And that actually can wipe a group.

---

Your failure analysis is flawed. The fail point in this very rare scenario isn't DPS, it's the tank. There is no requirement to WTW while undergeared, and them doing so is what leads to wipes. That is a choice that the tank has, and has nothing to do with a binary pass/fail condition of DPS.

Quote:

---

Ohh, "that's just the way it is" ... I see. Why precisely does that kind of argument only apply to lazy DPS?

---

Yeah, repeating a stupid question over and over doesn't make it all of a sudden have a different answer. The success or failure of a duty doesn't hinge on the DPS role like it does the other two. Take it up with Square, not me that DPS players have less impact than the other two roles.

Breaking this into two posts due to character limit.

Quote:

---

You have shown yourself so far to be completely unable to understand that other people value their time as well.

---

No, you mistake not having any interest in pressuring people in duty finder to hit a pace that is beyond the success or failure point with some bizarre concept of "person playing a game queues for a duty with 3 perfect strangers and expects others to value getting the duty done 3-5 minutes faster as much as they do".

Quote:

---

You so far have been the most egocentrical and delusion poster in here, with you expecting that the healers and tanks should be carrying the whole run on top of performing the additional duties that come with these rolls.

---

I'll just leave the smarmy, ineffective attempts to insult and obscurantism here. I don't know what you think you'll gain by acting indignant, it's a poor substitute for a valid argument.

Quote:

---

Ooohh, is that so? So when I queue for a duty directly, I get to be the lazy bum demanding other people to carry me? :D

---

Not if you have any integrity. There is a difference between having the ability and not using it and expecting everyone else to play at your expectation level. A difference you SHOULD understand, but either don't, or don't care.

Quote:

---

The main issue here is, that you don't even understand how damaging and toxic this attitude is. (blah blah)

---

No, the main issue is that pressuring people in normal content is wrong. If you cannot fathom the plebian stench of other people not rising to your level of play, then stay out of normal content.

Quote:

---

I have experienced Royal City of Rabanstre runs fall apart at the 2nd boss, because not enough people were able to dodge the mechanics, so there wasn't enough dps on the sand orbs.

---

The topic was expert dungeons, 4 man content, changing to optional alliance raids and boss mechanics. Try to stick to the subject, but since you felt the need, we can go there.

Sometimes raids fail. This is a fact of life, especially with a pick up raid such as one finds in duty finder. If you aren't prepared for that potential inevitability going in, that's a you problem.

Quote:

---

Also, what the heck does "put any content on farm status within a week" even mean?

---

The topic was 4 man extreme duties, and the meaning is that you move past learning content

Quote:

---

...it's obviously not clear speed you are going for, given your cavalier attitude towards baseline expectations for DPS players.

---

What my expectations for other people are has no bearing on my play. Trying to optimize progress per unit of time for my own performance, something that differs with each role, has no impact on what I expect other people to do. You seem to not get that expectations on yourself can differ from your expectations of other people.

The topic is good, but deep down, I think everyone understands that nothing will change conceptually.

Combat in this game has two sides. It's some "hard" content where any mistake is punished fatally, often for the whole group. Or it's so insignificant that it requires no effort at all, and if it does, it's with minimal effort. Something more average is needed for all roles. More healing for healers, more mechanics with ads for reds, more tanking for tanks. But we have running in circles and back and forth, zig-zagging, and placing huge, ridiculous markers on half the screen, thank you! The fights are uninteresting and this is the main reason why so boring to learn a fight.

Complaints about passing regular dungeons and even more so, alliance raids are quite ridiculous. You've already spent some time in the queue or partially completing the dungeon, what's the point of leaving it halfway or getting a penalty for the queue?

I'm the person who often slacks off on alliance raids, but is it my fault that most of them are incredibly boring and don't require effort or my personal permanent attention?
The last alliance raid Endwalker is literally a sleeping pill for me. Horrible, soothing ambient, slightly lazy combat... Zzz. Do you really want to blame me for literally falling asleep in a dungeon because it's so uninteresting? (By the way, this is why I love 70 and 80 alliance raids. They are extremely rare in roullete, but they are always fun).

If you really value your time, then you do the whole roulette with friends, however, the side content too. It really saves your nerves and time.
If you go to a solo queue in any role, you by default agree that you can throw three sprouts into it, with whom you will have to babysit.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jaxtaro

At any point, did you see anyone in this discussion say that DPS are exempt from basic requirements? No, what you saw was that standards are lower because encounter design makes their value negligible enough that one can be completely missing and it has no impact on the binary success or failure of the duty. This doesn't exempt them from engaging at a minimum level.

---

If the only criteria you have is "is the duty completed in the allotted time", then yes, you are correct. That's why I said you have no empathy, since you have no regard for the fact that other people do value their time. And might not appreciate having it pointlessly wasted by people who should be in therapy for their video game addiction or use the already available NPCs to get through the duties, instead of leeching.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jaxtaro

No they can't, because they have no way of reliably controlling aggro. They can sometimes temporarily survive if focused, but that's not tanking. Tanking is a binary. You either have the tools or you don't, and DPS don't havr the tools.

---

Ah, so tanking is "binary", but dps is a stacking function? My man, and I mean this with the utmost empathy, you are utterly delusional. This is what happens when you start to internalize the enabler rhetoric. Binary tanking would be "dps instantly dies from attack". They don't. Especially not in the normal content that we are talking about. A DPS tanking is annoying, because they require more healing, and very likely some rezzes. But it's not impossible. The pulls have to be smaller, and some mobs might have to be CCed. So the dungeon will take longer. But so will a dungeon where the DPS don't bother to do their jobs and deal proper damage!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jaxtaro

No, you mistake not having any interest in pressuring people in duty finder to hit a pace that is beyond the success or failure point with some bizarre concept of "person playing a game queues for a duty with 3 perfect strangers and expects others to value getting the duty done 3-5 minutes faster as much as they do".

---

"Pressuring people". Gods man, are you dramatic. I am starting to get the feeling that you speak from experience here, and I suspect that the frustration was pretty justified on the other people's end. Also, since the "3-5" minutes is so often thrown around: 5 minutes added to a 16 min run is 30% more. That's not "nothing". That adds up quite a lot of time when doing the content a lot. And pointlessly added to it, because some people don't want to do the absolute bare minimum for their role that they queue with. Which again, is only an argument for people who actually care about other people's time and fun, not for people completely lacking in empathy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jaxtaro

Not if you have any integrity. There is a difference between having the ability and not using it and expecting everyone else to play at your expectation level. A difference you SHOULD understand, but either don't, or don't care.

---

As I said, you don't even understand how toxic this attitude is. You don't get people to have more patience and understanding when you demand they do all the work, but should be unable to expect at least a mediocum of competence from their fellow teammates. The problem is, that the game design itself is pretty much build on the notion that a smaller population of skilled players will carry the larger part of the playerbase through most content. But as I said, you are so used to being carried, you don't even know what a party with your attitude is like.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jaxtaro

The topic was expert dungeons, 4 man content, changing to optional alliance raids and boss mechanics. Try to stick to the subject, but since you felt the need, we can go there.

---

Your reading comprehension is 7th grade level. I gave you one specific context for a question, while the broader topic is still about people doing the bare minimum. To pretend that normal and alliance raids aren't on the same trivial level as normal dungeons is just laughable.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jaxtaro

Sometimes raids fail. This is a fact of life, especially with a pick up raid such as one finds in duty finder. If you aren't prepared for that potential inevitability going in, that's a you problem.

---

Normal and alliance raids are trivial content. There might be wipes when too many people are new, but one of these instances outright failing is an indictment of the playerbase.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jaxtaro

The topic was 4 man extreme duties, and the meaning is that you move past learning content

---

Expert dungeons aren't "extreme duties". They are trivial content. Yes, if you are new, there might be a few wipes, and yes, I get that some mechanics like the confusion arrow are a real road block for some. But you don't "progg" these dungeons. There is nothing to put them on "farm status within a week", especially when you don't even optimize for clear time. Being able to clear an expert dungeon within the 90 minutes you get is not an achievement, it's the absolute bare minimum. Even the NPCs are able to clear the dungeon on their own in less time. And they are deliberately scaled to be "worse than any player party".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jaxtaro

What my expectations for other people are has no bearing on my play. Trying to optimize progress per unit of time for my own performance, something that differs with each role, has no impact on what I expect other people to do. You seem to not get that expectations on yourself can differ from your expectations of other people.

---

"optimize progress per unit of time". What an absolute meaningless statement. The fact that you dance around dps / clear times says it all.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by IceEyes

Or it's so insignificant that it requires no effort at all, and if it does, it's with minimal effort.

---

And yet, as this discussion has shown, even asking for that minimal effort is too much to ask.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by IceEyes

Complaints about passing regular dungeons and even more so, alliance raids are quite ridiculous. You've already spent some time in the queue or partially completing the dungeon, what's the point of leaving it halfway or getting a penalty for the queue?

---

The unwillingness to waste anymore time with a bunch of buffoons who failed the same, highly telegraphed mechanic for the 4th time despite there being a danger dorito running around literally showing people where the safe spot it. Again, this is like playing sports with people uninterested in playing the sport.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by IceEyes

I'm the person who often slacks off on alliance raids, but is it my fault that most of them are incredibly boring and don't require effort or my personal permanent attention?
The last alliance raid Endwalker is literally a sleeping pill for me. Horrible, soothing ambient, slightly lazy combat... Zzz. Do you really want to blame me for literally falling asleep in a dungeon because it's so uninteresting? (By the way, this is why I love 70 and 80 alliance raids. They are extremely rare in roullete, but they are always fun).

---

You are not responsible for the fight design. However, you are responsible for what you do. If you slack in a group duty, that is 100% on you. If you weren't there, maybe someone else would have taken your place who wouldn't slack. Which I am reasonably sure, is usually preferred by everyone else. But that argument of course only works for people who even care about anyone else.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by IceEyes

If you go to a solo queue in any role, you by default agree that you can throw three sprouts into it, with whom you will have to babysit.

---

Sprouts are sprouts. People in max level raids with hundreds of hours playtime using Drill only twice in a 10 minute fight aren't "sprouts to babysit".

I think it's worth noting that most bad players are just mimicing what NPCs do in solo duties if they're that role.
Tanks staying in the bad even though they can just walk out, check.
DPS roles completely freestyling their rotation, check and check.
Healers forgetting that they have any buttons other than Cure 1? Check.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AllenThyl

That's why I said you have no empathy, since you have no regard for the fact that other people do value their time. .

---

People who are playing a video game, signing up for solo queue duty roulette and are impatient are already not "valuing their time", and it is not a lack of empathy that leads to not respecting their need to rush, but a disrespect for the fact that they are burdening others with their poor time managemrnt choices. Empathy and respect are two different things.

Quote:

---

Ah, so tanking is "binary", but dps is a stacking function? My man, and I mean this with the utmost empathy, you are utterly delusional.

---

It is game design and has nothing to do with players, empathy, enabler, etc. You are doing the equivalent of attacking people for recognizing that the sky is blue.

Quote:

---

Binary tanking would be "dps instantly dies from attack".

---

No, binary tanking is both survival and aggro. You are way out of your league on this one.

Quote:

---

"Pressuring people". Gods man, are you dramatic.

---

I'll let the lack of self awareness speak for itself.

Quote:

---

Also, since the "3-5" minutes is so often thrown around: 5 minutes added to a 16 min run is 30% more. That's not "nothing

---

Relative time is irrelevant, a fight that lasts 30 seconds vs 15 isn't a collossal waste of time because it's 100% longer.

Quote:

---

That adds up quite a lot of time when doing the content a lot.

---

If you're repeating the same duty over and over, you have no business burdening other people with your time management woes.

Quote:

---

You don't get people to have more patience and understanding when you demand they do all the work

---

How many times must you be corrected before you stop making up this scenario in your mind? You don't even realize that in your little villian heirarchy, you're talking not to the slacker, but the enabler himself. I don't "demand" anything but for people to not give others grief over irrelevant things like efficiency of a duty roulette instance.

Quote:

---

Expert dungeons aren't "extreme duties". They are trivial content.

---

That was my mistake in words, I intended to say expert roulettes, not call them extreme.

Quote:

---

Being able to clear an expert dungeon within the 90 minutes you get is not an achievement, it's the absolute bare minimum.

---

I have never seen a timer expiration or even a failure in an expert dungeon. Worst case is some dork 20 mimutes in bails over "wasting their time", is replaced, and the duty is done a few minutes later.

Not everyone that plays online games is there for hardcore gaming challenge but to have fun and hang out with friends. FFXIV was thought supposed to be an online game for casual players.