P4S cleared without healers

M4S NOT P4S MY PHONE AUTOCORRECTED IT AND THIS SHITTY FORUM DOESN'T LET YOU CHANGE THREAD TITLES

https://m.bilibili.com/video/BV1iaY7...e0d11bcf26886c

So yeah that melee healer people wanted is in the game, go pick up pld buddies.
Week 2 lmao.

healerless kill are getting increadibly closer to the content release.
At this speed It would be funny we got a world first without healer...
could even actually happen if they put a hard DPS check

First lol not being able to edit thread titles is so bizarre to me, like what possible reason is there to make them uneditable.

Secondly, it wouldn’t surprise me at all if they genuinely just act like this never happened and continue as usual. Either that or we’ll get some ridiculously out-of-touch response again like ‘just play ultimates’ (except this tier’s ultimates don’t exist yet as far as I’m aware).

This party has three paladins and a warrior. Start complaining once it's two tanks and six DPS.

Also, your link is broken. It starts with http://https://

so tank replacing healer is fine and it only becomes a problem when dps are replacing healers ?
Then everything is fine, lets keep buffing tank healing and mitigation to get there !

Btw I fully expect the next ultimate to be cleared without healer on content. Unless they manage to make a "mandatory" heal LB3 that works unlike the TOP one.

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Originally Posted by PorxiesRCute

This party has three paladins and a warrior. Start complaining once it's two tanks and six DPS.

Also, your link is broken. It starts with http://https://

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Tanks have higher damage than healers. If it's optimal its a problem.

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Originally Posted by GrimGale

Tanks have higher damage than healers. If it's optimal its a problem.

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Just to add to this M1S was also cleared tank only, now if it was even possible for healers to survive until enrage a healers teams damage would never be able to beat enrage, but a tank team can.

Tanks get full dps rotations, tanks get much closer to dps damage, tanks get healer healing, tanks can wear armor or dresses. Healers are not optimal in dungeons, healers are not optimal in some ex's and not necessary in others, healers are not necessary in savage. At what point are any of these considered problems? DT has been better on the whole in dungeons, but that's not universal, really only the level 95 feels like I'm needed for the final boss.

Tanks replacing healers still plays far worse than actually having a healer.

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Originally Posted by wildvenonat

Tanks replacing healers still plays far worse than actually having a healer.

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If the kill time is faster then taking 2 healer in the group and the tank players that heal still have more dmg then healers normally playing the fight then this will be the new speed kill group cause you can will skip a lot more and won’t need heals.

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Originally Posted by PorxiesRCute

This party has three paladins and a warrior. Start complaining once it's two tanks and six DPS.

Also, your link is broken. It starts with http://https://

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"This party has 4 tanks". So 2 of the healers can just be replaced with tanks, except with more HP and better niche utility. And Higher DPS, considering none of their GCDs were spent on Clemency DURING UPTIME and tanks have higher dps than healers at the moment. Gotcha.

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Originally Posted by Wyti

so tank replacing healer is fine and it only becomes a problem when dps are replacing healers ?
Then everything is fine, lets keep buffing tank healing and mitigation to get there !

Btw I fully expect the next ultimate to be cleared without healer on content. Unless they manage to make a "mandatory" heal LB3 that works unlike the TOP one.

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IIRC TOP was cleared healerless in the same patch they were released.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

IIRC TOP was cleared healerless in the same patch they were released.

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Pretty sure it was indeed

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Originally Posted by wildvenonat

Tanks replacing healers still plays far worse than actually having a healer.

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The tanks literally lost zero damage in this fight, they didn’t cast a single clemency in uptime

If you're unhappy with the way this expansion is going then go vote for it at Metacritic, maybe SQE will notice if that starts dropping.

https://www.metacritic.com/game/fina...xiv-dawntrail/

I don't ever think Metacritic votes are taken in account for game approuval, but the number of subscription by given times, which a way better proof of the extension success of failure.

About this, there is something indeed, but everytime I saw a healerless clear it's the same DPS : Reaper, Monk, Dancer and Summoner, the DPS with the strongest healing abilities and for sure, many Warrior And Paladin as needed for keeping the party alive and cheesing a maximum of things.

If healer perception was not as bad as it is now, theses kinds of success would've been take with much less salt and more like "What crazy players we have". Don't get me wrong, i really think healer need a overall rework allong tanks in order to better balance mitig vs heal requirement, because right now, the balance is much in favor of Mitig and heal requirement is not that big when mitig is perfectly executed.

But as annoying this is for the state of the game, it's much less worrying as something we got in the past :
- HW full locked team compositions
- SB semi locked compositions
- SB meta were tank in offense stance reach every players in every aspect of the game.
It's also something very hard to solve without breaking the entire game.


PS : I'm pretty sure many EW savage and even ShB savage coulf have clear without healer if more people were trying to do so, and probably as quick as M4S were clear today.

@7:01 - 7:12 - 8 clemency cast during boss jump/phase change
@12:38 - pld 3 clemency on dnc after death

9 total clemency casts. 1 during uptime

Interesting

sorry but I don't see this video as a bad video..

it is cool to mix 2 roles like paladin (tank+healer)

it is just another way to broke the game ever further

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Originally Posted by Likethewind

@7:01 - 7:12 - 8 clemency cast during boss jump/phase change
@12:38 - pld 3 clemency on dnc after death

9 total clemency casts. 1 during uptime

Interesting

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It’s only 1 Clemency cast in uptime and that’s nothing. If they had bis gear the fight would be dead way faster and without this need. It’s kinda wild that the tier is possible with no healer week 2

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Originally Posted by Tunda

sorry but I don't see this video as a bad video..

it is cool to mix 2 roles like paladin (tank+healer)

it is just another way to broke the game ever further

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It's a bad thing in a trinity based mmo because it shows that the trinity is broken. If this happened in WoW it would of been patched in a day, it shows gross negligence on behalf of CBU3.

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Originally Posted by Ramiee

It's a bad thing in a trinity based mmo because it shows that the trinity is broken. If this happened in WoW it would of been patched in a day, it shows gross negligence on behalf of CBU3.

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I mean it is part of homonization after all

3 expansion in a row I don't see how dev can't see this happened in the future

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Originally Posted by Ramiee

It's a bad thing in a trinity based mmo because it shows that the trinity is broken. If this happened in WoW it would of been patched in a day, it shows gross negligence on behalf of CBU3.

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Speaking of WoW they recently had a similar problem but addressed it was faster and I've never resonated so strongly with a post from a dev than this one: https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...within/1894517
I really hope SE would be a bit more open about it with and once again take inspiration from the state of the art of MMOs design (not limited to wow) like they did during 2.0.

This speaks more to the healing power of paladin than it does to anything else

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Originally Posted by Zolvolt

This speaks more to the healing power of paladin than it does to anything else

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8 clemency cast all around and only 1 during uptime with a dead. This is nothing if you think about it. Like they had too use this 1 uptime clemency because some one died. How is this ok ??

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Originally Posted by Ramiee

If this happened in WoW it would of been patched in a day, it shows gross negligence on behalf of CBU3.

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How to tell people that you didn't actually play that much WoW without explicitly saying so. I mean, it happened there again and again and again and again. And no tanks was popular for a long time, too. Warlock tanking, even! Although to be fair back in the first expansion there was one fight that was explicitly designed to have a Warlock Offtank. It wasn't really required, but the difference in difficulty between having one and not was startling. And from that came the fun of Warlock tanking raid bosses! I did quite a lot of them back then!

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Originally Posted by Carighan

How to tell people that you didn't actually play that much WoW without explicitly saying so. I mean, it happened there again and again and again and again. And no tanks was popular for a long time, too. Warlock tanking, even! Although to be fair back in the first expansion there was one fight that was explicitly designed to have a Warlock Offtank. It wasn't really required, but the difference in difficulty between having one and not was startling. And from that came the fun of Warlock tanking raid bosses! I did quite a lot of them back then!

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I'm referring to current retail wow, they often rebalance tanks because they become too powerful. It's not perfect because it's something that happens constantly so it's like a constant reset after a period of healers being useless but at least the reset happens, in ff14 it has been this way for half half a decade without it being fixed. Hell before that healers would get dropped sometimes in dungeons, so really you could say this is a problem the game has never fixed. For as annoying as role balancing in wow is at least I know that there will always be a period where the trinity is rebalanced despite the fuckery.
Also in a wow mythic raid which is the equivalent to savage, this hasn't happened to my knowledge, wow overtunes their mythic raids then nerfs them but I don't believe there's ever been a mythic raid since at least Legion where healers were removed from play the same patch it released.

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Originally Posted by PorxiesRCute

This party has three paladins and a warrior. Start complaining once it's two tanks and six DPS.

Also, your link is broken. It starts with http://https://

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Two extra tanks, who have better utility than a healer, better damage, higher HP and numerous other benefits? Those two extra tanks?

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Originally Posted by Zolvolt

This speaks more to the healing power of paladin than it does to anything else

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Sounds to me more like how avoidable damage is...kind of avoid or die....what's to heal?

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Originally Posted by ApolloGenX

Sounds to me more like how avoidable damage is...kind of avoid or die....what's to heal?

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Yeah exactly.

FFXIV tends to only dish out big all-raid hits (sometimes disguised via spread or partner stack mechanics but same outcome) every so often in raids + some light tank-damage from AAs.

Compared to other MMORPGs that usually feature at least one of these four in every single fight:

- Random shots of light-medium damage fired at 1-2 raid members basically on every AA on the tank. Constant damage output that has to be handled via single target heals, forcing use of GCD heals as timer-based heals run out early if you tried to handle it with that.
- Non-preannounced lines, cleaves or AoEs that hit for light damage somewhere in the room. In particular melee DPS might hence at any point not be at full health, having just suffered a 360° melee cleave for 25%-40% of their health.
- Constantly ticking DoT on the entire raid, strong enough to require consistent healing but not life-threatening in any capacity. This again forced GCD heal usage because you run out of timers if you were to try do it just with those. Valigarmanda does not have this as the damage is far too benign, plus of course with how FFXIV snapshots its DoTs we all reduce it even further.
- Randomly thrown out secondary effects (DoTs, debuffs) that need handling via GCD abilities like single target heals or Esuna.

In return, those infrequent big raid hits don't hit for 90%-95% in other MMORPGs, but more like 50% or so. This is because at any given time, someone might get dropped by 40% right before. But in return, you are basically always busy healing. No breaks, no exceptions. People are constantly losing HP, you need your timers for the big hits, so you are spending time on GCD heals.

Ffxiv healers are designed for sustained damage in a game with determinant and patterned damage. Removing the damage dealing for Healers didnt also come with an overhaul in encounter design for them it just made healers worse to play in the same encounter design.

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Originally Posted by PorxiesRCute

This party has three paladins and a warrior. Start complaining once it's two tanks and six DPS.

Also, your link is broken. It starts with http://https://

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Pretty sure it also been cleared with no clemency from pals, no healer and no tank LB. Pretty sure only reason they bring 3 Paladin is to cheese some part with cover since they lack the LB.

This again begs the question, why is damage so low in FFXIV raids and parties.

The healing tanks do is not high comparing something like Blood DK in WoW or so. But everything deals so utterly little damage. And if it does, it's 90%-100% hits, but only every 20-30 seconds. Contrasted with other MMOs, which would do something like:

- Autoattacks for 25%+ of a tank's HP after passive mitigation.
- Each autoattack has a chance to do a 360° cleave, causing damage to all melee players for 25%-50% of their HP.
- Each autoattack fires a few random shots into the party, dealing 25%+ damage to people hit. Utterly random, you can be the target of multiple such attacks.
- Alternatively, there's a quite significant constantly ticking damage on the raid. Not Valigarmanda level, far far more.
- Raid damage hits are reduced to 30%-50% on everyone, since anyone might be low at the time it happens.

The idea here is that yes, Paladins can heal that. But they're OOM after a few casts of single target healing. Warriors can heal that. Every 25 seconds. Only actual healers have proper no-CD GCD heals, and you'll be spamming those like crazy to keep up with this, healing individual people from the random individual hits and in-between using instant oGCDs to top up people before frequent weaker raid hits.

It doesn't have to be that crazy of course, but we really need significantly random individual target-damage in raids. This is something the tanks would not be able to cover. This would require a healer's GCD single target heals if it happens frequently enough, say on every auto-attack.

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Originally Posted by Likethewind

@7:01 - 7:12 - 8 clemency cast during boss jump/phase change
@12:38 - pld 3 clemency on dnc after death

9 total clemency casts. 1 during uptime

Interesting

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This is what I mean. M4S just doesn't deal damage to the group essentially. And that is the problem. Even Paladin healing is actually pretty paltry. It would be utterly insufficient if there were actual damage on the group.

Imagine for a moment of M4S had a DoT that dealt a constant 10% of HP (so more on a tank than on anybody else) every 3 seconds. Good luck doing that without double healers, even those re going to have to manage their mana some.

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Originally Posted by Carighan

This again begs the question, why is damage so low in FFXIV raids and parties.

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Imo. 2 reasons. First, Tank just got WAY to much mitigation. Aside from their vast ammount of damage reduction all tank got either a 25 sec strong defensive CD or A strong defensive CD that use their ressources. So tank got tons of hp and just loss less hp overall than a dps would if they were to get hit.

And that the second part. The rest of the party is like, comically weak and made out of paper. And that lead to situation where a dps die in one hit cause he had his left foot inside 2 orange puddle, all while the tank is running around with 5 vulne stack and still can live just fine, provided they use their cd correctly and the healer throw them a small heal between rez.

It just hard to design sustained damage to the party when Tank are self propelled immortal god in term of survivability and the rest of the party can't afford to make 2 mistake in the same minutes, even in casual content like dungeon.

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Originally Posted by Magikazam

It just hard to design sustained damage to the party when Tank are self propelled immortal god in term of survivability and the rest of the party can't afford to make 2 mistake in the same minutes, even in casual content like dungeon.

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Eh, I dunno. I don't find it difficult to design at all, in particular because other MMOs did this >20 years ago casually, without much thought.

And to be fair, sure, maybe tanks need to be slightly less durable, but it would still not be difficult to say, design Honey B Lovely like this:

1. Her cloth bands with the stinger ends are now independently moving.
2. Shortly after every auto-attack, they each fire a bolt onto a random different partymember. It cannot be the main emnity target, but it can be the offtank (in which case you get a bit lucky).
3. One stinger deals ~50k-70k in damage.
4. The other deals ~40k in damage.

This would not even be that much, considering how infrequently she AAs. But it would be enough to not be ignored, as people hit by this would be dead come the next raidwide, and during the beats it can drop people dangerously low if they're not topped off. But also, this would just happen too often (in particular during beats again, where she has extended stretches of AAing) to cover with just Essential Dignitiy et al. You'd have to actually heal it as the next raidwide that'd use a group healing oGCD could already be killing somebody if not individually healed before. It also happens often enough so that many (if not most) of your GCDs would be busy with Aspected Benefic, or job equivalents. Maybe even Benefic (GASP!).

Really, there are 3 main mechanics to this. Every single boss should be doing either of these, or a combination of them but then at reduced value:

1. Fire random attacks into the non-tanking party, as above.
2. Deal a portion of their melee damage in 360° around them (enough to threaten melee DPS but not outright kill them, similar to (1) but focused on melee DPS in particular).
3. Have random AoEs or line attacks that have 0 forewarning but again don't deal lethal damage. In this case the amount of players hit is up to chance, too. You can spread out to minimize the chance, but you cannot fully prevent sometimes 2+ people getting hit. This also reduces the doomstacking of parties.

And it's not like these mechanics need variance. Program them once, then apply to bosses with a scaling factor: If two are used, each is 50% as strong. If all three are used, each is 33% as strong. Done.

Most of FFXIVs issues is it's a western style MMO going through a JP mindset. 20+ years of experimentation has gone around in western MMOs so now those Devs have a better idea of how to balance roles, WoW for example had very similar healer design to current XIV 15ish years ago however it was unengaging which led to healers quitting so they turned this around to having more damage dealing and now current healing is fun, still has balance issues but there's regular rebalancing.
GW2 also has real fun healers and balancing issues every once a while.

I've played a lot of eastern MMOs and they are not designed with this in mind, everything is role restricted, healers heal, tanks tank and DPS DPS. That is if you even have trinity roles, the JP and Korean game design mindset seems to think that you have to play your role and only your role. I'm pretty sure most JP players wouldn't mind if healers literally weren't allowed to deal damage in raids and only heal. Looking specifically at the FF forums at least, it's sad but early ff14 was not normal design wise for JP MMOs the game just became more and more like all other JP and Korean MMOs.

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Originally Posted by Carighan

Eh, I dunno. I don't find it difficult to design at all, in particular because other MMOs did this >20 years ago casually, without much thought.

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Other MMO are also designed with healer being Healbots and encounter having tons of mechanics going out all at once.

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Originally Posted by Carighan

3. One stinger deals ~50k-70k in damage. 4. The other deals ~40k in damage.

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In Honey B that enought to randomly kill people during her hearth phase and when she drop honey. She love to AA a lot during those and you would EASILY end up killing DPS while they did nothing wrong. You know during her hearth phase there a Meteor part right. Healer would need to premtively time their healing so they can heal in between the small frames where the meteor damage them and they could receive a stinger. You would then need to full heal said person cause there like 6 other meteor going down and you can't afford to not heal 5 of those, and even too you just healed the first dude, there a non 0 chance he just get targetted by 2 stingers while you deal with other meteor.

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Originally Posted by Magikazam

In Honey B that enought to randomly kill people during her hearth phase and when she drop honey. She love to AA a lot during those and you would EASILY end up killing DPS while they did nothing wrong. You know during her hearth phase there a Meteor part right. Healer would need to premtively time their healing so they can heal in between the small frames where the meteor damage them and they could receive a stinger. You would then need to full heal said person cause there like 6 other meteor going down and you can't afford to not heal 5 of those, and even too you just healed the first dude, there a non 0 chance he just get targetted by 2 stingers while you deal with other meteor.

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That's the thing, these raidwide effects would no longer hit for 80%+, but for 40%-50%. The idea is to make the infrequent raidwide attacks weaker, but instead add constant low~medium damage pressure onto non-tanks. Forcing in turn a constant healing output stream, which is more than even very heal-heavy DPS or Tanks can provide with their limited toolset.

That's how, well, everyone else gets it done. :P

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Originally Posted by Carighan

That's the thing, these raidwide effects would no longer hit for 80%+, but for 40%-50%. The idea is to make the infrequent raidwide attacks weaker, but instead add constant low~medium damage pressure onto non-tanks. Forcing in turn a constant healing output stream, which is more than even very heal-heavy DPS or Tanks can provide with their limited toolset.

That's how, well, everyone else gets it done. :P

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Except with the exemple I just given and the number you gave me, those effect don't deal 80% of someone hp. In normal Honey B meteor deal like 35k ish damage. Phys dps have around 150k hp with BIS and magical/healer got 120k hp. You're asking for random occurence of 70k damage, that hit more than the actual mechanic, and that even whitout considering minim Ilevel or vulne stacks.

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Originally Posted by IgnisLilly

Tanks get full dps rotations, tanks get much closer to dps damage, tanks get healer healing, tanks can wear armor or dresses. Healers are not optimal in dungeons, healers are not optimal in some ex's and not necessary in others, healers are not necessary in savage. At what point are any of these considered problems? DT has been better on the whole in dungeons, but that's not universal, really only the level 95 feels like I'm needed for the final boss.

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I wouldn't say "much closer"