Rphys: why slow walk casts (ala pvp) aren't a solution

While I do agree that a lot of the pvp stuff can be a great model for job identity in pve, I don't understand the obsession some posters have fancied themselves with about the pvp slow walk casts on rpve phys. It sounds like a great idea until you dig a little further and actually try and see how it would behave.

1) This works in pvp for the very reason that it has an actual reason to be there: to make sure those roles are less mobile and get caught up by melees easily (caveat, it's only on the filler combo, which is the least important part of the role and can be ignored if required anyway, so even in pvp I'm not convinced about them, they just make you want to cast even less, exactly like casters btw). In pve, saying we need to bring this to the system without any actual reason beyond "give it constraints not like casters but like casters so we can remove the mobility tax", will not fix anything.

2) Whether you can move very slow or not at all will not help you dodge mechanics or move to a position you need to be at more than normal casts. Try doing this when you're afflicted by Heavy and see if you still find it funny. It's no different than a normal cast with the only difference being that they're actually harder to cancel because moving doesn't insta stop the cast, nor can you slidecast with them. Guess what? Slow casts from pvp would probably suck in pve.

3) With the current pve sets, only DNC would be able to perhaps accommodate slow walking casts (where it doesn't even have them in pvp, the irony). BRD and MCH are absolutely unable to even consider it, because BRD is literally riddled by timing issues that are completely incompatible with them (song timings, song transitions, army's muse...), while MCH is filled to the brim with double weaves everywhere: where do you find the room to even insert walking casts?? And even then, all 3 rphys jobs are full double weaves during their whole burst windows.

Ultimately I'm not saying it's a bad idea, but it wouldn't work in the current model at all, and whatever model they would work in, it would require a complete rework of absolutely everything.

Addendum: adding normal or walking casts to only a handful of target abilities like tools on MCH would not make rphys cast time constrained at all, no more than SMN or SAM already are. Adding them everywhere would just turn them into actual casters, but perhaps the idea was to remove rphys as a role entirely?

I mean, I’d love Bard to be able to cast its songs again instead of just making them abilities at the very least. But as you mentioned there’s no way for that to actually happen without like a major rework of the entire phys ranged role. I suppose they could make it that like, you only have walking casts in Paeon since you’ll have the haste bonus to make them shorter, but then at that point it’s like ‘what’s even the point?’ lol

At this point though, I’d honestly accept if they did just rework the role from the ground up lol. Including reevaluating what direction they want to go with Machinist (i.e giving it dps actually commensurate with being a ‘selfish’ dps or giving it buffs/debuffs/support). Again I highly doubt we’ll see anything to that extent, maybe some potency buffs and a new 120-second raid buff button in 8.0 (follow-up attack sold separately)

I think it can work but won't be the solution. The problem is that even if you make ranged walk, they'd just have to move earlier, which they can do.

But Physical range can't remain the casterless caster / meleeless melees.
They could be the fastest APM jobs along Ninja and Viper (Who pretty much have a huge ranged advantage as well) while also having heavy support tools. They can strike from anywhere but must always have a sustained DPS.

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Originally Posted by Connor

I mean, I’d love Bard to be able to cast its songs again instead of just making them abilities at the very least. But as you mentioned there’s no way for that to actually happen without like a major rework of the entire phys ranged role. I suppose they could make it that like, you only have walking casts in Paeon since you’ll have the haste bonus to make them shorter, but then at that point it’s like ‘what’s even the point?’ lol

At this point though, I’d honestly accept if they did just rework the role from the ground up lol. Including reevaluating what direction they want to go with Machinist (i.e giving it dps actually commensurate with being a ‘selfish’ dps or giving it buffs/debuffs/support). Again I highly doubt we’ll see anything to that extent, maybe some potency buffs and a new 120-second raid buff button in 8.0 (follow-up attack sold separately)

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Casting song is an option but why not like rythim games?

Mini rhythm game for bard would be cool to see

Walking casts I think are a good identity baseline for the phys ranged (as right now their “identity” is they don’t have one as they don’t have any constraints) but I can also see people arguing “well walking casts you can still move so they still need a ranged movement tax” like people currently argue

BRD as a job I think is perfectly fine complexity wise (actual design wise not so much but that’s beside the point), give it 40% uptime on walking casts and you could easily stick it around NIN level. DNC and MCH meanwhile are both phys ranged and arguably too easily especially since last dance, finishing move and dance of the dawn basically made DNC’s burst totally static. They are jobs I strongly believe actually need to be reworked (BRD needs to be reworked for its identity and disjointed kit but it’s complexity is spot on) and given something alongside walking casts

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Originally Posted by Valence

Addendum: adding normal or walking casts to only a handful of target abilities like tools on MCH would not make rphys cast time constrained at all, no more than SMN or SAM already are.

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If it means Machinist gets to do Samurai damage I'd take it,

the "ranged tax" has obliterated the viability of an entire subrole and something has to give, though I agree bow mage and gun mage isn't really a good direction.

I'm neutral on the discussion of ranged phys needing cast times or not, but it did give me a dangerous idea. What if all ranged phys had an oGCD stance toggle that functioned somewhat like old Gauss Barrel and Wanderer's Minuet. It increases damage output, but instead of adding cast times to all GCDs it simply caps movement speed in-combat (unless they receive a movement speed buff like Sprint or Expedience, which disables the movement penalty for the duration). It'd be like dancing around old cleric stance and wouldn't require any reworks to the jobs at present because it doesn't remove any weaving windows aside from turning the stance on/off. It wouldn't have to be as slow as walking speed, but it could be.

I'm not saying ranged phys needs anything like this. It's just an idea.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

dance of the dawn basically made DNC’s burst totally static

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DNC burtst is not any more static then before as far as I can see. You still have all your saved up feathers, so lots potential Fan Dance 3 procs. And with the addition of Last Dance, your Standard Step cooldown constantly drifting, which changes your burst window just as much as the old Saber Dance with RNGy esprit gains. And having to keep track of that drift makes the whole job quite a bit more finnicky imo.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Walking casts I think are a good identity baseline for the phys ranged (as right now their “identity” is they don’t have one as they don’t have any constraints) but I can also see people arguing “well walking casts you can still move so they still need a ranged movement tax” like people currently argue

BRD as a job I think is perfectly fine complexity wise (actual design wise not so much but that’s beside the point), give it 40% uptime on walking casts and you could easily stick it around NIN level. DNC and MCH meanwhile are both phys ranged and arguably too easily especially since last dance, finishing move and dance of the dawn basically made DNC’s burst totally static. They are jobs I strongly believe actually need to be reworked (BRD needs to be reworked for its identity and disjointed kit but it’s complexity is spot on) and given something alongside walking casts

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BRD is not more complex rotationally than MCH by any means. Its structure is pretty simple, and it has strong raid buff concerns for burst when it comes to optimization (putting the big hitters into the buffs). The filler and procs are extremely basic and intuitive as well and aren't even tied to dots anymore. What's complex on bard is mastering the extremely finicky and regimented GCD planning and playing around insanely sensitive timers when you want to optimize, which comes from jank more than actual intricacies (much like SMN was constantly fighting against its demis back in the days and it added a lot of "bad" complexity to the job for little reason).

MCH is nothing alike DNC, is not only one of the busiest jobs in the game, and provides a rotation at least on equal footing with BRD on getting a proper burst, but also introduces more resource management in exchange for less timer babysitting. DNC on the other hand, forgives almost every mistake and has the least optimization of the three, and only the burst is even remotely active and interesting in my eyes, the rest is very resident sleepo. I do agree that making DNC's burst more static was the biggest mistake they did with that job, as it used to be close to BRD's by being the only two jobs with changing burst patterns and triaging priorities in the game.

I don't want walking casts because I frankly find it boring design wise. We already have casters and melees, and I don't find is extremely creative to just say "hey let's make them like ninja and viper" but with some casts and range. We're talking about an actual DPS subrole, not a subset of the melee DPS role. I don't find is a lot more appealing than just turning rphys into full casters so that what's only remaining is ranged DPS vs melee DPS.

I still do feel that some of the core facets of those jobs used to exist, and that's what needs to be brought back as a true core part of the role identity. Party resource support will obviously not come back without a full battle system rework or rollback, so that's out of the picture, but a proc system more interesting than what's left right now? Yes, they could bring back ammo and the likes. They could make a more involved ammo system part of the defining traits of the role for example (but I don't know in what form exactly I'll be honest). Rphys would become the role that plays and juggle with ammo, perhaps of different types. Either way, ammo introduced a superior layer to the just "press the glowy button" because it introduced triaging and choice on the spot, which was one of the main features of the role before. I do not over-exaggerate when I say this as I do believe that what used to make rphys and is only currently present as a shadow of its former self within BRD and DNC is the triaging part built around rng and a constant upkeep/maintenance over a non deterministic rotation. Having a more intricate rotation is probably the lead I find the more appealing because if you don't have positionals or range to take care of, or cast times, then perhaps you have more time to input into the rotation and the kit itself. Perhaps the role could be more appealing to players that care the most about feeling good on pulling out the most of their rotation.

When it comes to mitigation support, it's slowly fading into a sea of similarities found among other classes, even melees and casters now. Some melees have 2 supports (feint and mantra for example or even crest), some casters have unique raid wide support (magick barrier) on top of addle, and at least two of them can heal the party in significant ways, while two of them can also raise, which rphys has never been able to do. This alone has stopped long ago to define what the role is, and we can either decide to just shrug it off but at the benefit of not including it into the range tax, or actually build upon it, but I do feel it's a lost cause in the direction the game has been going and that support roles have just taken over in the mitigation department anyway.

As for raid damage support, BRD and DNC are great and the only ones reaching those levels by far, which in terms of identity is good, but could be a lot better and more involved (who misses Foe Requiem instead of press and forget raid buff buttons?).

And then, bringing back actual mechanics that can only realistically be done by the role, and it doesn't have to be about positioning or mobility either.

I'll say it again as I've read it even today or regularly anyway, and I've also experienced it during HW: we don't play rphys for cast times, else we'd go play actual casters, and we don't play rphys for positionals, else we'd go play melee dps.

The day they add cast times to phys range is the day I quit the game, the whole job identity is based around not having cast times I can tolerate it in a PVP setting but outside that hell naw

They can still make phys range jobs better without going back to the route of gun mage, MCH was changed away from it for a reason.

I mean, yeah, walking casts would likely justify more firepower for the role, and that's what we want. It will be the difference between an instant 220 potency Burst Shot vs. a likely 300ish potency Powerful Shot with a walking cast. Balance aside, that extra damage will make spam feel a lot better knowing that your attacks are hitting harder. And the potency of other attacks would have to be adjusted in relation to the walking cast skills. And yeah, BRD, and MCH would have to undergo reworks to accommodate getting walking casts, but the reworks would be more akin to the NIN/DRG reworks.

Walking casts would still leave phys ranged more mobile than healers even when placed on filler skills like replacing Burst Shot with Powerful Shot, and replacing the Clean Shot combo with Blast Charge spam. And they would be given plenty of instant skills like they do magical ranged to handle the most intense movement situations. Like for MCH, they could increase the amount of heat you get from Blast Charge spam so you can always have a Hypercharge phase banked away which grants you 7.5 seconds of free movement. That's roughly the same amount of movement time Triplecast grants. The funny things is that DNC already has pseudo-caster mechanics with its dance steps which ask players to preform a series of zero damage steps to get access to high damage finisher. Finishing Move is basically Swiftcasted Standard Step.

To me, the walking cast mechanic has more in common with FPS mechanics than it does with spell casting. Yeah, they are similar, but the juice is different. Think of how when you play Hanzo from Overwatch, and when you ready a shot your movement speed is reduced until you let go of primary fire button. Or any other FPS where when you aim down sights, your movement, and FOV get reduced until you stop. Adding walking casts is less so about making phys ranged like casters, and more about making them more FPSy. The mechanic allows the phys ranged to be the 'FPS' role while while still affording 'weird' jobs like DNC to exist.

People have the mindset that adding any form of cast to Physical Ranged will turn them back into the bowmages and gunmages of Heavensward. Yet even modern day Magical Ranged jobs don't have 'casts' on every action, and you often can choose where you want those casts to occur, such that they occur when movement isn't actually required anyways.

I think that players harbor some illusions about 'mobility'. Bosses spend long periods of time casting tells on their next mechanic sequence. Being able to run around randomly while the boss is hardcasting a new mechanic is irrelevant. It's great that you can get up, stretch your legs, and walk around when nothing is happening. But what really matters is bursts of movement. Smudge is real mobility. You press a button, you dash forward and gain sprint, and you can do this three times per minute.

I don't think having a single hardcast or two would create as much of an issue as people think it does, and every other role has them anyways. Oh no, you have to stand in one place to draw up a jetpack schematic, line up a sniper shot, or perform an aetheric drum solo on the boss' skull when the boss' castbar is charging up with the words 'Mechanic 3'. What matters is if you can dynamically work around where they occur. I think the 'walking cast' concept is really just a way of getting the players on board so that they realize that it was never a big deal to begin with.

I would just recommend adding in a couple of casts and/or walking casts, whatever you're comfortable with. Add in a couple of burst mobility tools similar to Smudge to compensate for the 'reduction in mobility'. And then equalize the dps. Stop treating Physical Ranged like a second-class subcategory of Ranged.

More mobile than healers? No. Hard disagree on this, for the reasons I explained in the OP. Again: no easy cast cancel unless you go all the way to press escape, then move normally. This is extra cumbersome and usually way too late when you need to move. Walking casts are a big trap in pvp for this specific reason and I don't see how it would somehow be different in pve. No slide casting either so you'll eat the full 1.5s casts or even a little more due to server delays. And the mobility reduction doesn't make it better than no moving at all or barely, because it will never be enough to move for mechanics anyway. Walking casts are more cumbersome to deal with than actual casts and they don't bring any noticeable gain. In pvp i'll take casters fillers ten times over the rphys walk casts as well, because they don't screw you hard if you get caught while casting like walking casts actually do. This is not a FPS and does not work like a FPS, and while it may work for Hanzo in FPS, it doesn't here. I also don't want to play a FPS but a RPG MMO.

I also don't want to have more hypercharge, please no. It's carpal tunnel inducing enough as it is currently playing this job...

Steps on DNC don't ask you to cast anything. If your idea is to place it behind a cast time, then it would be similar to put cast times behind nukes like MCH tools or BRD's Soul Gauge moves. Which is essentially like SAM already does for melee, and this has never been included into the total damage output of the job out of the pretense that "SAM is a caster and lacks mobility", and I have yet to see anyone arguing that SAM should get more damage than other melees either due to it.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

People have the mindset that adding any form of cast to Physical Ranged will turn them back into the bowmages and gunmages of Heavensward. Yet even modern day Magical Ranged jobs don't have 'casts' on every action, and you often can choose where you want those casts to occur, such that they occur when movement isn't actually required anyways.

I think that players harbor some illusions about 'mobility'. Bosses spend long periods of time casting tells on their next mechanic sequence. Being able to run around randomly while the boss is hardcasting a new mechanic is irrelevant. It's great that you can get up, stretch your legs, and walk around when nothing is happening. But what really matters is bursts of movement. Smudge is real mobility. You press a button, you dash forward and gain sprint, and you can do this three times per minute.

I don't think having a single hardcast or two would create as much of an issue as people think it does, and every other role has them anyways. Oh no, you have to stand in one place to draw up a jetpack schematic, line up a sniper shot, or perform an aetheric drum solo on the boss' skull when the boss' castbar is charging up with the words 'Mechanic 3'. What matters is if you can dynamically work around where they occur. I think the 'walking cast' concept is really just a way of getting the players on board so that they realize that it was never a big deal to begin with.

I would just recommend adding in a couple of casts and/or walking casts, whatever you're comfortable with. Add in a couple of burst mobility tools similar to Smudge to compensate for the 'reduction in mobility'. And then equalize the dps. Stop treating Physical Ranged like a second-class subcategory of Ranged.

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Counterpoint: stop treating rphys like a caster and make it its own role. Casters would be mad if they were told that they should be like rphys, so why should rphys be like casters? Casters are already mad about SMN for that specific reason. If your idea is that every rphys should aim to become a SMN, then no, thank you.

If as you say it changes nothing on mobility, then see my point above on SAM. You're essentially trying to shoehorn something that brings no additional constraint or challenge to justify a damage up. I don't mind the idea of having cast times behind those specific bit hitters though, but what does it bring exactly? Like for SAM, it would be on a case by case basis feel. SAM cast times don't bring any additional challenge, they do bring a feel for iajutsu moves. I'm open to this on rphys actually if it brings that kind of hard hitting feel on specific moves, but it will never bring anything else in the mobility department.

I think the broader point is that Physical Ranged is being treated as directly inferior to Magical Ranged, despite offering a lot of the same considerations and utility tools.

Iaijutsu cast times on SAM are partially there for aesthetics, but they do add some decision making around how your burst interacts with mechanics. The same is true for Ten-Chi-Jin and Communio as well. You're still required to plan and think about where these actually go, which happens naturally as you optimize a fight. I don't want you to think that casts are meaningless nor miserable, because they can be surprisingly fun to plan for and optimize when executed well. I think a lot of PCT's popularity comes down to how flexible its cast system is and how you can optimize on the fly. The addition of a few situational casts (or walking casts) on to Physical Ranged won't ruin your day, but it will give you a talking point to discuss equivalency, which is ultimately what needs to happen.

By the way, the issue that you just raised about cancelling walking casts was already addressed previously. You just have the damage charge up when you hold down the action. When you release the button, the effect is released and you do damage in proportion to how long it was held for. If the cast completes, then the action goes off for the full damage. That's part of the reason why the Hanzo analogy works.

Personally I'd like some of the abilities on machinist to be like this while I'd like bards burst shot to be like that this. For machinist I would love this on flamethrower and maybe on the normal combo but only with the PCT cast time being just over 1 second, it would make hypercharge being instant cast more impact imo.
For bard I'd just want the filler attacks to have a cast time but the procs to be instant cast. Even if machinist didn't change I'd love this on bard because it would feel like you're actually using a bow.

I think the point being made is that phys ranged have no identity

“Lack of role identifying mechanics” isn’t an identity but it’s basically what Phys ranged have

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Originally Posted by Lyth

I think the broader point is that Physical Ranged is being treated as directly inferior to Magical Ranged, despite offering a lot of the same considerations and utility tools.

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I do agree and i'd go further and say that people are extremely biased because they only do consider mobility and uptime when they talk about difficulty, yet some jobs like BLM have absolutely braindead rotations (unless you go non standard), but the only thing people retain is the mobility difficulty. Rphys needs more toolkit intricacies, not less. And unique ones at that, but I already did cover it earlier.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Iaijutsu cast times on SAM are partially there for aesthetics, but they do add some decision making around how your burst interacts with mechanics. The same is true for Ten-Chi-Jin and Communio as well.

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TCJ is a way longer immobility and it's more akin to what Flamethrower used to be during the opener (5 ticks) in Stormblood, rooting you in place.

However I do think people are really lying to themselves if they actually think that iajutsu or communio casts are an actual hurdle, much like 1-2 tick FT never was in the past either.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

I don't want you to think that casts are meaningless nor miserable, because they can be surprisingly fun to plan for and optimize when executed well. I think a lot of PCT's popularity comes down to how flexible its cast system is and how you can optimize on the fly.

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I'm sure they can be for people, and PCT is probably the best designed job in the game currently, or one of the best. If anything, I do play PCT casually a lot and enjoy it. However, PCT is a caster, and rphys are not casters. I don't play rphys to cast or plan around casting uptime. I don't find this fun and that's not what I like about PCT either.

Again, casters mains can keep their casting times. Don't try and turn my role into a caster. It's called ranged physical, not caster. The day they turn the only remaining role that actually fits my playstyle into another, I quit pve altogether.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

By the way, the issue that you just raised about cancelling walking casts was already addressed previously. You just have the damage charge up when you hold down the action. When you release the button, the effect is released and you do damage in proportion to how long it was held for. If the cast completes, then the action goes off for the full damage. That's part of the reason why the Hanzo analogy works.

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And I already answered below.

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Originally Posted by Valence

More mobile than healers? No. Hard disagree on this, for the reasons I explained in the OP. Again: no easy cast cancel unless you go all the way to press escape, then move normally. This is extra cumbersome and usually way too late when you need to move. Walking casts are a big trap in pvp for this specific reason and I don't see how it would somehow be different in pve. No slide casting either so you'll eat the full 1.5s casts or even a little more due to server delays. And the mobility reduction doesn't make it better than no moving at all or barely, because it will never be enough to move for mechanics anyway. Walking casts are more cumbersome to deal with than actual casts and they don't bring any noticeable gain. In pvp i'll take casters fillers ten times over the rphys walk casts as well, because they don't screw you hard if you get caught while casting like walking casts actually do. This is not a FPS and does not work like a FPS, and while it may work for Hanzo in FPS, it doesn't here. I also don't want to play a FPS but a RPG MMO.

I also don't want to have more hypercharge, please no. It's carpal tunnel inducing enough as it is currently playing this job...

Steps on DNC don't ask you to cast anything. If your idea is to place it behind a cast time, then it would be similar to put cast times behind nukes like MCH tools or BRD's Soul Gauge moves. Which is essentially like SAM already does for melee, and this has never been included into the total damage output of the job out of the pretense that "SAM is a caster and lacks mobility", and I have yet to see anyone arguing that SAM should get more damage than other melees either due to it.

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I did say dance steps are a pseudo caster mechanic. While you can still freely move around, they do ask you to intentionally take downtime in your rotation in exchange for high burst damage. The same logic applies to NIN Mudras as well. And yeah, not being able to cancel walking casts is a bit of a problem, but it's a mechanical problem, and not a job design problem, and so it could easily be developed. It's just a wrinkle that needs to be ironed out.

It's worth noting that the Magical Ranged DPS role is not called 'Caster'. It's called Magical Ranged DPS. Casts can be found on pretty much all other roles. All of the arguments against occasional casts or walking casts on Physical Ranged DPS just boil down to personal preference.

Discussing balance around 'difficulty' is subjective. There are different things that each role values in terms of 'challenge.' I think Snow makes a good point, in that Physical Ranged doesn't really have an identity currently. It's not really a 'support role', because even the likes of PCT has equivalent utility. It's not a 'damage role' either, 1% buff aside.

I can appreciate that any change to design direction is going to be met with resistance and naysayers. But there needs to be one in place for 8.0 at the latest. Otherwise, they might as well merge down Ranged into a single category and just standardize people replacing the Physical Ranged slot with a Magical Ranged.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

It's worth noting that the Magical Ranged DPS role is not called 'Caster'. It's called Magical Ranged DPS. Casts can be found on pretty much all other roles. All of the arguments against occasional casts or walking casts on Physical Ranged DPS just boil down to personal preference.

Discussing balance around 'difficulty' is subjective. There are different things that each role values in terms of 'challenge.' I think Snow makes a good point, in that Physical Ranged doesn't really have an identity currently. It's not really a 'support role', because even the likes of PCT has equivalent utility. It's not a 'damage role' either, 1% buff aside.

I can appreciate that any change to design direction is going to be met with resistance and naysayers. But there needs to be one in place for 8.0 at the latest. Otherwise, they might as well merge down Ranged into a single category and just standardize people replacing the Physical Ranged slot with a Magical Ranged.

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Yes they should, the idea of a support DPS is stupid as the whole concept is legacy design there should be Healers Tanks Melee DPS and Ranged DPS some ranged dps has cast times some dont.
(MCH should still be without same with BRD and DNC).

They all should have the potential to roughly do the same amount of personal damage, tuned around if they bring raid buffs or not.
As someone who brings massive raid buffs should probably have a bit lower personal damage and those who don't should naturally be a bit higher to keep things fair.

Jobs can still have job flavor using unique animations and spell effects without gimping / inflating their damage, job "identity" should not shaft their potential output be it raw numbers or due to gimmics.

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Originally Posted by mallleable

I did say dance steps are a pseudo caster mechanic. While you can still freely move around, they do ask you to intentionally take downtime in your rotation in exchange for high burst damage. The same logic applies to NIN Mudras as well. And yeah, not being able to cancel walking casts is a bit of a problem, but it's a mechanical problem, and not a job design problem, and so it could easily be developed. It's just a wrinkle that needs to be ironed out.

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I'm still not really sure how walking casts would prove that different from normal casts in effect though. It's casting, it prevents you to move enough to complete mechanics and you have to find instants casts or ways to play around it. Unless you make the speed debuff outright ignorable but then what would be the point of them?

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Originally Posted by Lyth

It's worth noting that the Magical Ranged DPS role is not called 'Caster'. It's called Magical Ranged DPS. Casts can be found on pretty much all other roles. All of the arguments against occasional casts or walking casts on Physical Ranged DPS just boil down to personal preference.

Discussing balance around 'difficulty' is subjective. There are different things that each role values in terms of 'challenge.' I think Snow makes a good point, in that Physical Ranged doesn't really have an identity currently. It's not really a 'support role', because even the likes of PCT has equivalent utility. It's not a 'damage role' either, 1% buff aside.

I can appreciate that any change to design direction is going to be met with resistance and naysayers. But there needs to be one in place for 8.0 at the latest. Otherwise, they might as well merge down Ranged into a single category and just standardize people replacing the Physical Ranged slot with a Magical Ranged.

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I don't think anybody disagrees that rphys has lost all identity by now and shares a similar diagnostic.

I don't want them however to dumb down the game anymore by making jobs even more homogenous but turning everybody into various shades of a caster. Don't get me wrong, I don't mind some casts like iajutsus on certain moves, but that's hardly gonna change anything.

We need to draw a clear line between occasional casts like that and casts on the actual filler/combos. That's two completely different worlds.

Some people want to fix the damage issue by introducing heavy cast times like it used to be in HW/SB, I want to fix it by refocusing on the core of the role, which includes the rotation styles and their intricacies, that's about it. If anything the fact that the very idea of cast times is extremely divisive or outright not shared at all by the actual rphys mains (but who knows I don't have a survey?), is pretty telling of what direction they shouldn't go for.

I wouldn't mind one of bards songs making the filler deal more damage but have a PvP cast, would be a fun add to something like Army's since Mages and Wanderers have a more engaging effect on your DPS.

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Originally Posted by Valence

I'm still not really sure how walking casts would prove that different from normal casts in effect though. It's casting, it prevents you to move enough to complete mechanics and you have to find instants casts or ways to play around it. Unless you make the speed debuff outright ignorable but then what would be the point of them?

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Again, it's an aesthetic/game feel difference which is fine actually. It's the difference between taking the time to aim a weapon vs. taking the time to cast a spell, and translating those ideas into job mechanics. Both incur a brief moment of downtime, but I would think that if one is dexterous enough, one would be able to think on their feet while using a ranged weapon while spell casting requires one to stay focused for longer. And yeah, actions that increase movement speed can mitigate some of the movement penalties of walking casts which adds a layer of strategy on how to maintain uptime in a fight which isn't really present in the magical ranged role. On a strategic level there would be a difference.

And, really, and truly all fights are designed with caster uptime in mind. Some fights might be trickier than others, but there are no fights where a caster cannot resolve them. The movement restriction is not a problem.

We tried Cast timers in HW 3.XX and people hated it.

https://youtu.be/kbvv0rgrT4k?si=5gyEtyVk82rxg-B-&t=86

The reality is the job system as a whole needs a redesign for 2026

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

We tried Cast timers in HW 3.XX and people hated it.

https://youtu.be/kbvv0rgrT4k?si=5gyEtyVk82rxg-B-&t=86

The reality is the job system as a whole needs a redesign for 2026

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I mean, not saying the Wanderer’s Minuet cast times did work, but I’m pretty sure there’s a literal universe between them and what people are actually for lol.

Heavensward literally turned every existing Bard weaponskill into full casts lazily overlaid over an rng-contingent, proc heavy skill set that already featured cast times on the songs themselves. I think they made them 1.5s at some point during the expansion, but even then you could get like 1 proc off between casts while Bloodletter sat there resetting during your casts, laughing at you because charges didn’t exist back then.

What people are asking for is the PvP style 1.5s walking-casts, which were designed specifically the PvP toolkit in mind (which is probably the only reason it actually works). I think when people are asking for ‘cast times’, they’re referring to these specific ones and for the necessary adjustments around them to be made as necessary. Nobody wants to go back to Heavensward Bard, not even me (I’d take the song cast times back though lol)

I mean, I think they’d be kinda cool in PvE. But would they actually work? All signs point to a hard no lol

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Originally Posted by Connor

I mean, I think they’d be kinda cool in PvE. But would they actually work? All signs point to a hard no lol

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What signs? The only reasons I can see that could prevent them being added to PVE is a lack of vision/imagination or an unwillingness to make them work. They aren't like the one shot K.O. moves or the other broken mechanics that are present in PVP, they are just simply a new type of action mechanic.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mallleable

Again, it's an aesthetic/game feel difference which is fine actually. It's the difference between taking the time to aim a weapon vs. taking the time to cast a spell, and translating those ideas into job mechanics. Both incur a brief moment of downtime, but I would think that if one is dexterous enough, one would be able to think on their feet while using a ranged weapon while spell casting requires one to stay focused for longer. And yeah, actions that increase movement speed can mitigate some of the movement penalties of walking casts which adds a layer of strategy on how to maintain uptime in a fight which isn't really present in the magical ranged role. On a strategic level there would be a difference.

And, really, and truly all fights are designed with caster uptime in mind. Some fights might be trickier than others, but there are no fights where a caster cannot resolve them. The movement restriction is not a problem.

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It essentially boils down to player's preferences. I am not interested in uptime considerations, DDR mechanics and whatnot, and that's why I play rphys.

Also what that person said above, it's already been tried in HW and people hated it. This is not very different in reality.

Yeah, slow casting or any casting is a no-go for me, my brain sees it as downtime or delay due to a bad connection it's just no.
No matter how long or short the cast is it completely clashes with the reason I play MCH.

All instant casts almost no downtime and rapid game play adding cast times will completely kill the flow of the job.
I love how the single target MCH plays keep it as is, just up the damage.
Maybe add some more robots for fun and expand our abilities to work better in AOE, as our AOE gameplay is dog water.

So other than our low damage and jank AOE, MCH is damn near perfect in single target, and I would not want it any other way

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mallleable

What signs? The only reasons I can see that could prevent them being added to PVE is a lack of vision/imagination or an unwillingness to make them work. They aren't like the one shot K.O. moves or the other broken mechanics that are present in PVP, they are just simply a new type of action mechanic.

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PVP walking wouldn't work in PVE because of one key factor; interrupting cast time. As some who plays caster this is one key feature that is need in PvE content. If you are targeted by mechanic and stuck in a walking animation, you're going to get hit were as Caster stop casting and can run out of the way.

RPhy is in a tough spot because they lost their purpose. The main job was to restore TP/MP and buff. SB killed that concept and they never fixed the problem. Everyone job buffs based on a skill now and RPhy got the short end of the stick with movement tax.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

PVP walking wouldn't work in PVE because of one key factor; interrupting cast time.

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This is how you would do it:

Tap button: Deals X potency, functions as standard weaponskill.
Press button and hold: Deals X + kt potency, where k is a multiplier and t is the charge time. If the button is released early, the action is released at that potency. When maximum charge is reached, the effect is released automatically and the GCD is activated.

You can take this design approach with both walking and standing casts.

Another potential fix for canceling casts is letting Peloton cancel casts when used in combat. Also they could let phys ranged with walking casts keep their weaker instant weapon skills sorta like how SCH has Ruin II.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

This is how you would do it:

Tap button: Deals X potency, functions as standard weaponskill.
Press button and hold: Deals X + kt potency, where k is a multiplier and t is the charge time. If the button is released early, the action is released at that potency. When maximum charge is reached, the effect is released automatically and the GCD is activated.

You can take this design approach with both walking and standing casts.

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Wouldn’t this cause tons of issues with latency?
People would just complain about ‘my screen said I was at 60% but I only got the damage of a 40% charge, damn you Yoshi-P!’, or accidentally holding when they meant to tap. Plus you’d see the forums flooded with posts complaining ‘I have to choose between holding for max damage or firing off infinity double-oGCDs, ffxiv is dead!’. ‘ I tried to tap during phase but it accidentally started charging now my opener is ruined, jail the devs!’ Etc.

Again I love the idea of phys ranged casts (song cast times plz), but frankly there is literally no way they can work in PvE whatsoever without causing a tidal wave of heavy backlash

There are lots of solutions to intentionally canceling walking casts, we will just have to settle on the best solution, not necessarily the right solution.

They tried doing that in Heavensward, they got a lot of backlash from the role as a whole(both BRD and MCH, but mostly BRD); even if it was just their design at the time. If you try to reimplement cast bars onto rPhys, there will be a riot, especially since right now jobs are a bit more busier during burst windows. If you really wanted to implement them that badly, consider how channel abilities work(DNC Improvisation comes to mind) and get back with me on that - otherwise, Valence makes solid points on the issues of PvP mixing with PvE.

That doesn't mean all aspects of PvP can't be thrown into PvE, though...like AoE Wildfire.

The solution is identical to standard casts, except for the fact that you now get partial credit for cancelling (and you can retain some movement while doing so). Magical Ranged could benefit from implementing 'channeled' actions as well.

You would likely end up switching to more of a Magical DPS style weave, though. Casts always come at the expense of APM, so if your primary enjoyment comes from speed and mechanical execution over planning and spreadsheets, then you'd need to look at a different design direction. This concept just explores the 'continuum' between two very different playstyles that already exist in the game.

MCH should get the walking casts and it's damage bumped up a lot to compensate. The PvP walking cast would work great on MCH with its simple rotation and (hopeful) emphasis on doing a lot of damage. I don't even think they need to rework the job much at all to accommodate walking casts besides adding an ability that isn't Hypercharge to use as a movement tool when you haven't planned your movement out correctly (i.e. Scathe/Ruin II).

People always cite HW as a "failure" of phys ranged walking cast without actually considering why it was received that way - because it was lazily tacked onto BRD and people didn't have the option of choosing a phys ranged without casts. MCH was designed with the casts in mind and as a result wasn't really the target of the "remove casts" debacle. It was just BRD that was the issue.

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Originally Posted by Tsumdere

MCH should get the walking casts and it's damage bumped up a lot to compensate. The PvP walking cast would work great on MCH with its simple rotation and (hopeful) emphasis on doing a lot of damage. I don't even think they need to rework the job much at all to accommodate walking casts besides adding an ability that isn't Hypercharge to use as a movement tool when you haven't planned your movement out correctly (i.e. Scathe/Ruin II).

People always cite HW as a "failure" of phys ranged walking cast without actually considering why it was received that way - because it was lazily tacked onto BRD and people didn't have the option of choosing a phys ranged without casts. MCH was designed with the casts in mind and as a result wasn't really the target of the "remove casts" debacle. It was just BRD that was the issue.

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Gonna say this knowing full well I was not playing in Heavensward, and did not play HW BRD, but HW bow mage wishes it were current PVP bow mage. If done right, walking casts could also work very well on BRD as well, but it would need more adjustments than MCH would need to accommodate getting walking casts. Wasn't the problem with HW caster BRD it only became a bow mage at end game, and the leveling process did not prepare players for that playstyle?

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Originally Posted by mallleable

Wasn't the problem with HW caster BRD it only became a bow mage at end game, and the leveling process did not prepare players for that playstyle?

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I think it was more that Bard’s toolkit was left as being entirely designed around hitting procs reactively which could become impossible with the cast times. And since there were no charges you could end up drifting cooldowns (by like 1.5s but still annoying lol) or missing a Bloodletter proc.

Then there’s the whole ‘mobility’ weirdness. Outside of slidecasting Bards had literally no means of ‘instant cast gcd’ because Minuet applied to all existing weaponskills, and ranged couldn’t use Swiftcast. Ultimately people developed a workaround; either cross-classing the Dragoon skill Feint, which wasn’t affected by Minuet and thus could function as a ‘Ruin II’ type insta-cast, or just toggling Minuet off (which would mostly tank your damage and cause the same issues as old Cleric Stance with wonky application).

I don’t think it’s as prevalent now as back then but the main design philosophy for Bard at the time could be described as ‘high burst then constantly bleeds damage’, but Minuet got in the way of the methods you’d use to minimise the ‘dipping’. Ironically they designed Paean as basically the exact same as the other songs; it was a literal spell but it only had the debuff immunity and not the Esuna effect itself. It was swiftly changed (like within the first few HW patches I’m sure) because again, people absolutely would not accept cast times on Bard. They were all simply too antithetical to what players believe(d) Bard should be (max APM RNG based ultra proc DoT hitter with passive support). Hence, when Stormblood came, all but one single spell remained in Bard’s toolkit, Foe’s Requiem.

Honestly I think the only reason Foe Requiem survived into Stormblood was purely because the developers forgot it existed lol. The ‘Bard community’ made one thing extremely clear; they absolutely will not accept cast times or spells on Bard. Which, makes me pretty sad, but I just don’t main it anymore lol. Also I don’t think anyone liked needing to manage their MP. Which again, is sad to me because that was an aspect I really enjoyed, but it is what it is. Cant have everything my way or anything for that matter lol *cries into flute*

Basically people hated that Minuet’s cast times ran counter to what they valued most in Bard; high APM and double-weaving proc-based gameplay. Thus, the birth of the Bard we have today; high APM, proc heavy, support becoming incredibly passive and toned down, middle-ground personal dps between Dancer and Machinist. (Despite how it sounds those aren’t criticisms of current Bard just where I’d say we’re at by now)

Mage bard was problematic because it was 90% of what you were doing since it was the highest DPS. I don't think it was a bad idea persay having cast times on bard, but only ever having cast times and especially caster casts where you couldn't move was rough.