Please add positionals back to Twin Snakes/True Strike on Monk! Now is the best time!

With Dawntrail, Monk is now easier and more accessible than it ever has been. No timers to maintain, no DoTs to watch. The rotation is rigid regardless of downtime.

Given that positionals were initially removed from Monk with the introduction of Masterful Blitz in Endwalker to prevent the job from being overly complex, this seems like the perfect time to reintroduce SOME of its old positionals.

Given how much we use Perfect Balance and opo-opo attacks, adding positionals back to Bootshine/Dragon Kick might be a bit much for some people (though I would personally love for those skills to have their positionals back.) But adding them back to Twin Snakes and True Strike seems like the perfect middle ground for people who miss Monk's old job identity, without being too punishing for players who aren't great at hitting positionals.

Of course, I would be happy with any amount of positionals returning to Monk. But it really feels like a piece of Monk was lost when it was reduced to only having 2 positionals in its entire kit. Part of the draw of Monk was the dance you did around the boss. That was super satisfying, and it made sense for there to be a job that engaged with positionals more than the others.

Please add some positionals back to Monk!

What would be the benefit of adding more positionals again ?
As it seems they wanted to tone it down with viper.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Unyqua

What would be the benefit of adding more positionals again ?
As it seems they wanted to tone it down with viper.

---

Just more engagement in the core rotation for monk. Monk doesn't have anything to maintain anymore so having positionals is a way of soft mechanic this way and if people want to do the best possible damage extra optimisation.

So you are doing the best possible damage right now and you want to add another mechanic to get the same result.
The issue is also that you have like a much faster gcd this also means you have less time to position.
Its exactly the reason they removed it from Dragoon. What i mean are the back to back changes of positionals and
Dragon is much slower in the GCD department and they still got rid of it.

I think a expert monk player would probably have no issue with it or would mot mind that much,
but in the end its just an added hurdle just for the sake of more complexity.

More complexity yes, and that's not a bad thing. With DRG's double positional being removed, and soon even VPR getting some simplification there's room for a melee with high positional requirements, and some of us like that kind of gameplay. Dawntrail Monk has a fun, simple rotation with space for a little more to think about during the filler phases. Positionals are already a matter of optimisation and the devs do not expect you to hit them 100% of them time - you can tell because they are a small potency bonus and they don't break your combo. A simple 20-40 potency bonus positional on Twin Snakes & True Strike would be great fun.

Well i cant really validate if i am hitting a positional or not because there is no indicator that i did.
in the past not hitting one would ruin your combo, but now there is just no feedback to it.
so in the end i could just petend they are there and call it a day.

Yes, currently the only way to tell is a slight difference to the sound effect. There should be some flytext or something for feedback.

Positional aren't complex, they are not adding complexity to a job..... They just add annoyance and frustation....
In fact, OP, you aren"t asking for complexity but just for higher APM because, be real for a second, you'll just use True North everytime is up and you'll use as excuse the fact that the tank is moving too much or that the boss mechanic is not melee friendly etc... to justify it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lorika

Positional aren't complex, they are not adding complexity to a job..... They just add annoyance and frustation....
In fact, OP, you aren"t asking for complexity but just for higher APM because, be real for a second, you'll just use True North everytime is up and you'll use as excuse the fact that the tank is moving too much or that the boss mechanic is not melee friendly etc... to justify it.

---

Wouldn't call them complex but I would call them engaging. Having to factor movement and positioning in optimising a fight is fun, it's part of the reason a lot of samurais preferred the cone aoe over a circular aoe. It's nothing complicated but it's engaging to adjust and move around as a melee.
Lots of melees act like casters standing still and attacking, it's weird because melees entire thing is being free to move and attack.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Unyqua

I think a expert monk player would probably have no issue with it or would mot mind that much, but in the end its just an added hurdle just for the sake of more complexity.

---

All gameplay is complexity and/or visual flair between starting and ending an encounter.

Mechanically speaking, complexity IS gameplay and gameplay IS complexity.

If you think this added bit of cognitive load would devalue others for a net loss in how the given complexity is leveraged, then that could be reason to call it convoluted.

However, (well-leveraged) complexity itself is all we can ever aim to have, and we have good reason to believe that adding positionals would make denser, more engaging use of our forms and surrounding mechanics for greater engagement/better leverage from what complexity already exists.

Positionals are boring

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lorika

Positional aren't complex, they are not adding complexity to a job..... They just add annoyance and frustation....
In fact, OP, you aren"t asking for complexity but just for higher APM because, be real for a second, you'll just use True North everytime is up and you'll use as excuse the fact that the tank is moving too much or that the boss mechanic is not melee friendly etc... to justify it.

---

it's people like you that has made me essentially quit this game. i used to love monk and that was the class that kept me playing the game. they slowly dumbed it down and then took away positionals leaving basically nothing left to stand out. you wanna crap on a mechanic that people like and get it removed then they took away positionals and guess what? there's not even more people playing the job. it's still near the bottom in terms of parses. you're now just swapping out old players that liked the way monk played before for other people that wanna cry about having the class changed and for what? don't like the class? there's tons of others. you can go play any other melee dps and not have to deal with positionals. i thought positionals made the class incredibly fun, but people like you complaining about complexity or "annoyance and frustration" to you, but to me it added something DIFFERENT that was interesting for me and also other people.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jerome15

it's people like you that has made me essentially quit this game. i used to love monk and that was the class that kept me playing the game. they slowly dumbed it down and then took away positionals leaving basically nothing left to stand out. you wanna crap on a mechanic that people like and get it removed then they took away positionals and guess what? there's not even more people playing the job. it's still near the bottom in terms of parses. you're now just swapping out old players that liked the way monk played before for other people that wanna cry about having the class changed and for what? don't like the class? there's tons of others. you can go play any other melee dps and not have to deal with positionals. i thought positionals made the class incredibly fun, but people like you complaining about complexity or "annoyance and frustration" to you, but to me it added something DIFFERENT that was interesting for me and also other people.

---

I did ARR early release and my first class was pufilist (Because it was my main on 1.0).... After the first 3 dungeon i just stopped playing Monk because of the positional.
Not because it was hard (it wasn't), because, seriously, that wasn't fun at all.... And, at that time, we had TP, so there was a lot downtime with auto-attack only.

But even so, postional don't add complexity at all, Twin Snake buff, Demolish dot, greased lighting, while i never liked them, added complexity because you had to include the upkeep in your rotation.... While positional? Who care i have True North.... Positional are just an useless and bad on FFXIV(i was already using positional in 2004 with my Treasure Hunter on Lineage II.... And thoses were real meaningfull postional not just a potentcy boost)

Positional on this game are just plainly bad.... It's either they scrap them completly or they rework the system to make it really fun and meaningfull. because as it stand, only min-maxer care about it

here the facts, you don't like them? well not my problem... And stop saying it's "because of you" than you quit because it's not... t's just you than can't cope with the fact that you are in a minority that love the meh gameplay mechanic that FFXIV positional are.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Freyt

Positionals are boring

---

SE removing gameplay aspect after gameplay aspect without ever adding anything is boring. There is almost nothing left in the current battle system.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Unyqua

So you are doing the best possible damage right now and you want to add another mechanic to get the same result.

---

It's this reductive attitude that's partly to blame why we have what we have now. We could also remove all abilities bar one and call it "Resolve". You press it, you win. "You are doing the best possible damage right now and you want to add another mechanic to get the same result".

Well, yes. I'd like to play a game. That's the point.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Unyqua

So you are doing the best possible damage right now and you want to add another mechanic to get the same result.
The issue is also that you have like a much faster gcd this also means you have less time to position.
Its exactly the reason they removed it from Dragoon. What i mean are the back to back changes of positionals and
Dragon is much slower in the GCD department and they still got rid of it.

I think a expert monk player would probably have no issue with it or would mot mind that much,
but in the end its just an added hurdle just for the sake of more complexity.

---

It's a hurdle for the sake of more fun. It is fun to think about positionals.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hunter2

Yes, currently the only way to tell is a slight difference to the sound effect. There should be some flytext or something for feedback.

---

I didn't even know there was a sound effect difference. I think improving the feedback for positionals would bring a lot more people on board with their inclusion.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by velswen

It's a hurdle for the sake of more fun. It is fun to think about positionals.

---

yes for some and for some its not.
I think its a hurdle that will also be a problem with new encounter mechanics.
There is a reason they added this "no positionals required mode" to the AC4 encounter, because some people would have complained that they cant get behind the boss.
They rather should add more new interesting stuff to jobs than trying to resurect some 2014 mechanic.
For me having like just a bonus of 30-40 potency for standing in the right position is just really unimaginative and boring. especially when you dont even have feedback if you did hit it or not.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by velswen

I didn't even know there was a sound effect difference. I think improving the feedback for positionals would bring a lot more people on board with their inclusion.

---

To behonest if there is a difference i cant hear it. i tested it right now with SAM and they sound the same...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Payadopa

It's this reductive attitude that's partly to blame why we have what we have now. We could also remove all abilities bar one and call it "Resolve". You press it, you win. "You are doing the best possible damage right now and you want to add another mechanic to get the same result".

Well, yes. I'd like to play a game. That's the point.

---

No it's not.
It's the attitude of wanting useless annoying mechanics that is bad for this game.

If the dev was listenning to all the people saying : keep positional, keep greased lightning, keep twin Snake buff, keep demolish dot etc... etc... Monk job would still be locked in 2.0 and nobody except a handfull of hardcore fan would play it.

The actual Monk, at last, have now a clean gameplay that feel more modern (FFXIV wise), it's not perfect and yeah it miss maybe one or two things to make it "complete".... but thoses things are surely not 10+ years old meh and annoying gameplay mechanic that the FFXIV postional are actually.

In fact, FFXIV lack a thing that most of other MMO use : Real CC.... And it would be nice to have some Knockback, Knockdown or stun instead of simple and lazy potency buff on the positional.
Like that, it's up to you to use them or not depending of the situation, and this would add complexity and flexibility, not just some more number for excell spreadsheet maniac.

Surprisingly there's 6 melee jobs out there. What if maybe just 1 of these jobs is positional focused and if you don't like that gameplay loop you could maybe play one of the other 5 melee jobs out there to play instead of demanding one changes to suit you.
It's really absurd to me how many jobs there are in this game yet people still demand them to change for them. From DRK begging for TBN to lose mana cost to SCHs begging for ED to be removed there's so many jobs out there to play instead.

No wonder the jobs are so homogenised and boring now, the Devs listened to people begging for anything that's unique to a jobs play style to be neutered and removed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ramiee

Surprisingly there's 6 melee jobs out there. What if maybe just 1 of these jobs is positional focused and if you don't like that gameplay loop you could maybe play one of the other 5 melee jobs out there to play instead of demanding one changes to suit you.
It's really absurd to me how many jobs there are in this game yet people still demand them to change for them. From DRK begging for TBN to lose mana cost to SCHs begging for ED to be removed there's so many jobs out there to play instead.

No wonder the jobs are so homogenised and boring now, the Devs listened to people begging for anything that's unique to a jobs play style to be neutered and removed.

---

"Homogenization" doesn't exist. Some role share core mechanics (Tank and healer) but past level 50 all the job have they own gameplay, they own rotation.

Here a good exemple to illustrate that : Take 2 racing car with the same engine... Will they have the same performance and will you pilot them the same way? No you won't because each use different part and have different settings.... They just share the same engine.

Having a common base doesn't mean homogenization.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ramiee

Surprisingly there's 6 melee jobs out there. What if maybe just 1 of these jobs is positional focused and if you don't like that gameplay loop you could maybe play one of the other 5 melee jobs out there to play instead of demanding one changes to suit you.
It's really absurd to me how many jobs there are in this game yet people still demand them to change for them. From DRK begging for TBN to lose mana cost to SCHs begging for ED to be removed there's so many jobs out there to play instead.

No wonder the jobs are so homogenised and boring now, the Devs listened to people begging for anything that's unique to a jobs play style to be neutered and removed.

---

The thing is positionals are not unique to one melee job. Every melee job has positionals and they all have their effect. They add a little edge for players that manage to hit them.
As soon the moment comes when you have to fight a wall boss they are pointless anyways. Its a limiting mechanic in encounter design.
In the past there was more of a point to positionals ... if you fail your positional you fail your combo and you have to start again.
That in my opinion is way to much punishment, especially for not pros and it makes the job less accessible.

Adding like 4 buffs/debuffs and positionals you have to track with the current crappy UI is not really imaginative.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Unyqua

The thing is positionals are not unique to one melee job. Every melee job has positionals and they all have their effect. They add a little edge for players that manage to hit them.

---

Weaponskills, spells, abilities, gauges, relative uptime increasers, etc., aren't unique to any job, either; each provides an avenue for differentiation. By removing them on the basis that "everyone has them anyways," you end up with increasing homogeneity (at its extreme, just auto-attacks.

Quote:

---

As soon the moment comes when you have to fight a wall boss they are pointless anyways. Its a limiting mechanic in encounter design.

---

If positionals are removed in the only situation where they could otherwise limit encounter design... they literally do not (cannot) limit encounter design except by enticing the developers not to make EVERY boss a wall boss, which "limits" only complacency/stagnancy.

Quote:

---

In the past there was more of a point to positionals ... if you fail your positional you fail your combo and you have to start again.

---

In the past no combo chain had positionals, only combo starters. You could not be forced to restart your combo because you literally had no combo yet; you were forced merely to restart the attempt to get one. The difference between a combo-finisher failing to trigger its combo bonus and a combo-opener failing to trigger its following skill's combo bonus is night and day, but the requirement to land the correct positional to get one's combo bonus was removed before any positionals were yet attached to anything but the opener.

Quote:

---

Adding like 4 buffs/debuffs and positionals you have to track with the current crappy UI is not really imaginative.

---

You don't track positionals with the UI, unless you count seeing the enemy as "UI".

(Yes, I've left as irrelevant what has no relevance to positionals and therefore the thread.)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Weaponskills, spells, abilities, gauges, relative uptime increasers, etc., aren't unique to any job, either; each provides an avenue for differentiation. By removing them on the basis that "everyone has them anyways," you end up with increasing homogeneity (at its extreme, just auto-attacks.

---

I never said that they should remove them. I rather would have them focus on adding job mechanics that are unique to that one job in a way that is fun and fits the job fantasy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

In the past no combo chain had positionals, only combo starters. You could not be forced to restart your combo because you literally had no combo yet; you were forced merely to restart the attempt to get one. The difference between a combo-finisher failing to trigger its combo bonus and a combo-opener failing to trigger its following skill's combo bonus is night and day, but the requirement to land the correct positional to get one's combo bonus was removed before any positionals were yet attached to anything but the opener.

---

Well i did not play in the Expansions before EW so my informations are just secondhand. I only know that it was way more punishing.

And this is another point. Many players joined in the post ShB era. How will you sell more positionals to those players.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

You don't track positionals with the UI, unless you count seeing the enemy as "UI".

---

I see the target ring as a UI element and sometimes its hidden by the enemy model.

Also to account for my buff/debuff comment, the OP was pointing out that with the removal of the Dot and Damage buff it would be fun to add more positionals.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Unyqua

Well i did not play in the Expansions before EW so my informations are just secondhand. I only know that it was way more punishing.

---

History lesson then. Monk's positionals were always as they are now, just a damage loss, it didn't prevent you from progressing through the forms.

Dragoon on the other hand had 2 weaponskills, Heavy Thrust and Impulse Drive that had positional requirements. Heavy Thrust was a standalone weaponskill that provided a damage buff if you hit the enemy from the flank, if you missed the flank, you didn't get the buff. Impulse Drive was the combo starter for the Chaos Thrust combo (Impulse Drive > Disembowel > Chaos Thrust), Miss the rear positional on Impulse Drive, it then didn't combo into Disembowel (which was a piercing resistance down at the time). Before the end of ARR, heavy Thrust was changed so that the buff was always applied, but you lost potency and Impulse Drive lost the positional requirement entirely and it was instead placed onto Chaos Thrust, as it is now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Unyqua

And this is another point. Many players joined in the post ShB era. How will you sell more positionals to those players.

---

If you haven't tried it, how can you say you don't like it. You never know, it might be fun. We aren't saying to give every melee a ton of positionals either, but instead, provide a broad spectrum so that if you don't like positionals, there will be a melee job that suits your needs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lorika

I did ARR early release and my first class was pufilist (Because it was my main on 1.0).... After the first 3 dungeon i just stopped playing Monk because of the positional.
Not because it was hard (it wasn't), because, seriously, that wasn't fun at all.... And, at that time, we had TP, so there was a lot downtime with auto-attack only.

But even so, postional don't add complexity at all, Twin Snake buff, Demolish dot, greased lighting, while i never liked them, added complexity because you had to include the upkeep in your rotation.... While positional? Who care i have True North.... Positional are just an useless and bad on FFXIV(i was already using positional in 2004 with my Treasure Hunter on Lineage II.... And thoses were real meaningfull postional not just a potentcy boost)

Positional on this game are just plainly bad.... It's either they scrap them completly or they rework the system to make it really fun and meaningfull. because as it stand, only min-maxer care about it

here the facts, you don't like them? well not my problem... And stop saying it's "because of you" than you quit because it's not... t's just you than can't cope with the fact that you are in a minority that love the meh gameplay mechanic that FFXIV positional are.

---

it's amazing how you can be so dismissive about why someone would quit the game because they like something you don't to the point you even make up an excuse as to why someone would quit, but yet you're putting words in my mouth....and you might wanna check the likes in these forums when talking about positionals. Your posts aren't getting any likes which are talking against positionals while posts in favor of positionals are getting likes. my post is actually up to 7 likes already and your reply has zero. goes to show who the real minority is.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mikey_R

If you haven't tried it, how can you say you don't like it. You never know, it might be fun. We aren't saying to give every melee a ton of positionals either, but instead, provide a broad spectrum so that if you don't like positionals, there will be a melee job that suits your needs.

---

Well since we still have positionals its nothing i cant imagine, so i dont really need to play it.
the primary issue i have that its not visualized. you dont feel it. its just a number that gets added.
Its not represented in gameplay.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lorika

"Homogenization" doesn't exist. Some role share core mechanics (Tank and healer) but past level 50 all the job have they own gameplay, they own rotation.

Here a good exemple to illustrate that : Take 2 racing car with the same engine... Will they have the same performance and will you pilot them the same way? No you won't because each use different part and have different settings.... They just share the same engine.

Having a common base doesn't mean homogenization.

---

"Homogenisation doesn't exist" this game has no sustained damage jobs, they're all burst jobs. Enshroud and Reawaken are the same move, every single job is designed around having a combo to build up a resource and to spend it.
Every single job in the game is exactly the same for god sake play a different MMO once and you'll see that not all MMO class design revolves around builder spender burst classes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Unyqua

The thing is positionals are not unique to one melee job. Every melee job has positionals and they all have their effect. They add a little edge for players that manage to hit them.
As soon the moment comes when you have to fight a wall boss they are pointless anyways. Its a limiting mechanic in encounter design.
In the past there was more of a point to positionals ... if you fail your positional you fail your combo and you have to start again.
That in my opinion is way to much punishment, especially for not pros and it makes the job less accessible.

---

But clearly people still enjoy positionals which is why I think having one job having positionals is a good idea and remove them from the rest and monk which is the least busy melee is the best suited for them. Monk desperately needs some form of management with the buffs removed and having positionals fit this management good, doesn't even need to be damage it could give you chakra or something for your oGCD. Going out here for a second but I think historically wall bosses have been the worst bosses in the game I think literally the only wall boss thats ever had universal positivety was Shinryu EX, I would pray that monk becomes positional focused because then we would have less of these boring bosses. Also not every job needs to be accessible, we don't need BLM to get a SMN rework just because more people will play it, VPR and RPR are simple melee jobs for people to play is it so much to ask to have a hard job for people who want to be challenged?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Unyqua

Well since we still have positionals its nothing i cant imagine, so i dont really need to play it.
the primary issue i have that its not visualized. you dont feel it. its just a number that gets added.
Its not represented in gameplay.

---

There is a difference in thought when you have to consider positionals on all GCDs as opposed to every now and then. It forces you to find more creative ways to get around mechanics, including positioning yourself when you gap close.

The fact positionals don't have feedback is a separate consideration entirely and isn't really a factor in whether positionals should be increased or not. However, Monk had a good one where Bootshine was an automatic crit from the rear, which later meant you got an automatic chakra generation. It also isn't as simple as adding a secondary status effect. Someone earlier in the thread mentioned Knockback, Knockdown and stuns. Knock back makes people cry. WHM used to have it with Fluid Aura and MCH with Blank, both done damage, both pushed mobs out of the AoE attacks, so it just became inefficient to use and if they did work on bosses, it was just annoying for the rest of the party as well.

As for Stuns and Knockdowns, which are, for all intents and purposes, the same thing (prevents the mob from attacking), in big packs, it won't matter, not that positionals are a consideration there, then for any bosses, especially in more recent time, they will just be immune to them, making them flavour for no reason.

They could provide more audio/visual feedback as to when you hit a positional, make the hit sound more meaty as an example. However, the important question then is, just because you got the feedback, would that necessarily change your mind about how you feel about positionals in general?

I agree, having more positionals on monk would definitely make the job feel better

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ramiee

"Homogenisation doesn't exist" this game has no sustained damage jobs, they're all burst jobs. Enshroud and Reawaken are the same move, every single job is designed around having a combo to build up a resource and to spend it.
Every single job in the game is exactly the same for god sake play a different MMO once and you'll see that not all MMO class design revolves around builder spender burst classes.

---

Its probably because they designed the combat around the 2m window. So you have to align you hardhitters in a way you will catch this window.
So in the end they will design all classes to fit that pattern. I know its not that popular with all people, but its probably the easier way to balance stuff and i must they the FF14 team does a better job in balancing stuff than other MMOs.

Sustained damage class designs play like a pepper mill or a barrel organ.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ramiee

But clearly people still enjoy positionals which is why I think having one job having positionals is a good idea and remove them from the rest and monk which is the least busy melee is the best suited for them. Monk desperately needs some form of management with the buffs removed and having positionals fit this management good, doesn't even need to be damage it could give you chakra or something for your oGCD. Going out here for a second but I think historically wall bosses have been the worst bosses in the game I think literally the only wall boss thats ever had universal positivety was Shinryu EX, I would pray that monk becomes positional focused because then we would have less of these boring bosses. Also not every job needs to be accessible, we don't need BLM to get a SMN rework just because more people will play it, VPR and RPR are simple melee jobs for people to play is it so much to ask to have a hard job for people who want to be challenged?

---

Thats the issue with "Fun", its subjective. Some players like positionals, some dont and some dont care. maybe some people really enjoy monk now because they like the style.

I generally think they will adjust the class design to fit into the encounter design and not the other way around.

The thing is especially monk has to be accessible because its a job that starts at lvl 1. reaper and viper are job that start at level 70/80 so you need to get there first.
Maybe it can get more complex in the later levels.

And i think when you look and the newer jobs you can see what job design SE is aiming for.

Ok i will made in simple : reintroducing postional to Monk is like asking a Martial Artist Master or a Pro Combat Sport fighter to reintroduce the unnecessary excess movement, that he trained for years to remove, into his fighting style... I think you know the answer.

Also, more mechanics just make a gameplay more cluterred and.... Cluterred ≠ Complex.... And a good exemple is Chess : simple rules, simple mechanics, accessible to everyone but still have a lot of depth and complexity.
Something doesn't need tp have a lof of mechanics or feature to provide complexity and depth.

And for the Homogenization : no it doesn't exist. My illustration with Racing Car engine still stand : it's not because you have the same engine that the perfomance and how to pilot them are the same... And the answers provided by a few post above prove me that some people can't understand that, or don't want to see it and just use bad faith to respond.

If you want a real homogenization here what it is : Lineage II, the 3 dagger user class (Assassin style class using dagger) which are : Treasure Hunter (Human), Abyss Walker (Dark Elf) and Plain Walker (Elf), in 2004 they had the exact same active skills (same name, same icon, same effect).
The difference was made by the racial stat and 1 passive skill for each (Treasure Hunter had a passive that boosted the attack speed, Abyss Walker had one more level in Critical Power Boost and Plain Walker had one more in Critical rate boost)
This is what ihomogenization is.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Unyqua

Its probably because they designed the combat around the 2m window. So you have to align you hardhitters in a way you will catch this window.
So in the end they will design all classes to fit that pattern. I know its not that popular with all people, but its probably the easier way to balance stuff and i must they the FF14 team does a better job in balancing stuff than other MMOs.

---

2 minute meta is generally hated by pretty much anyone who does hard content so it was a massive mistake. Also the game isn't well balanced at all instead of certain classes being undertuned or weak patch by patch like other MMOs in ff14 entire roles are undertuned for expansions.
Phys range has been terrible since TP stopped being a thing, look at how often machinist gets rebalanced. Healers get dropped asap from comps to add in an extra DPS during reclears because they aren't important anymore and melees are so powerful double melee has been standard since SHB. This game is not balanced I don't know where people get this idea from.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Unyqua

Thats the issue with "Fun", its subjective. Some players like positionals, some dont and some dont care. maybe some people really enjoy monk now because they like the style.

I generally think they will adjust the class design to fit into the encounter design and not the other way around.

---

There's 6 melees design them for 6 different players if you lose your favourite job to these redesign, tough, SMNs lost their favourite job and never got it back you live with it too.
Then encounters stagnate because there's lack of imagination in how the encounter will interact with unique job design aspects. SB was amazing because the game has great encounters and great job design.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Unyqua

The thing is especially monk has to be accessible because its a job that starts at lvl 1. reaper and viper are job that start at level 70/80 so you need to get there first.
Maybe it can get more complex in the later levels.

And i think when you look and the newer jobs you can see what job design SE is aiming for.

---

Black mage the hardest caster starts at level 1, scholar the hardest healer starts at level 1, ninja the busiest melee starts at level 1. This was never a standard for accessibility most of the historically hardest jobs started at level 1 look at old summoner. Adding positionals to monk doesn't even make it super hard anyway, it's a very basic mechanic.

Well considering Sage was a carbon copy of sch and reaper/viper was incredibly basic then compared to pictomancer which is one of the most unique jobs we ever got I really don't know what the job design they're aiming for is.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by velswen

With Dawntrail, Monk is now easier and more accessible than it ever has been. No timers to maintain, no DoTs to watch. The rotation is rigid regardless of downtime.

Given that positionals were initially removed from Monk with the introduction of Masterful Blitz in Endwalker to prevent the job from being overly complex, this seems like the perfect time to reintroduce SOME of its old positionals.

Given how much we use Perfect Balance and opo-opo attacks, adding positionals back to Bootshine/Dragon Kick might be a bit much for some people (though I would personally love for those skills to have their positionals back.) But adding them back to Twin Snakes and True Strike seems like the perfect middle ground for people who miss Monk's old job identity, without being too punishing for players who aren't great at hitting positionals.

Of course, I would be happy with any amount of positionals returning to Monk. But it really feels like a piece of Monk was lost when it was reduced to only having 2 positionals in its entire kit. Part of the draw of Monk was the dance you did around the boss. That was super satisfying, and it made sense for there to be a job that engaged with positionals more than the others.

Please add some positionals back to Monk!

---

Desperately want to feel like with how much I have nothing better to do than hit dragon kick bootshine dragon kick bootshine that I'm doing anything at all besides mashing two buttons. Having to move between each felt good, especially on gamepad - it mimicks a street fighter style quarter-circle motion between your big hits, very nice! Positionals returning adds any amount of depth to a rotation that has had zero changes but to simplify it in two expansions now. This would be a huge improvement.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jerome15

it's amazing how you can be so dismissive about why someone would quit the game because they like something you don't to the point you even make up an excuse as to why someone would quit, but yet you're putting words in my mouth....and you might wanna check the likes in these forums when talking about positionals. Your posts aren't getting any likes which are talking against positionals while posts in favor of positionals are getting likes. my post is actually up to 7 likes already and your reply has zero. goes to show who the real minority is.

---

You can't post on these forums if you haven't logged into the game in the last month. How recently did you quit?
Even if you HAD actually quit, that wouldn't make you right, considering we're talking about subjective opinions (what is or isn't fun.)
The fact you you have more likes doesn't make you right, either. It just means you're being critical of SE on a forum where it's popular to be critical of everything.

Why though? I’ve always been indifferent to positionals: I don’t think they’re difficult, but I also don’t think they’re fun or engaging or realistically add anything to the class either. Shifting a few pixels to the left or right as necessary is kind of just busywork, not exactly riveting gameplay. There isn’t even a visual indicator that you’re landing them, and the potency difference is small enough that just eyeballing the damage doesn’t tell you anything either (unless you dig through the log). I saw someone mention an audio difference, but I’ve played MNK since 1.0 and I can’t say I’ve ever noticed, but I guess I can perk my ears the next time I’m handing out fades.

I really don’t care if SE puts more of them back, but I also wouldn’t mind if they stayed gone. Years of muscle memory still have me moving for raptor skills and Bootshine anyway so nothing has ever changed for me. You may as well just pretend they’re still there instead of asking SE to reimplement them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ElHeggunte

You may as well just pretend they’re still there instead of asking SE to reimplement them.

---

Given that any other contributor of relative potency would likewise just be compensated for if removed, the same would go for Riddle of Fire, or Chakra generation/spending, or even melee range.

Chakra spends two keys to provide less APM and lesser optimization challenge than what Shadowbringers positionals brought over Endwalker/Dawntrail. So what makes positionals uniquely dispensable where, say, Chakra generation is not?

Spending Chakra and pressing other CDs are actual gameplay mechanics with feedback. Even generating Chakra even though it’s mostly passive, you’re still doing something to generate it and have a little control over its rate. You would notice if those went away. Positionals for MNK are you just moving slightly with an effect that can’t really be eyeballed. There is no tangible feedback unless you’re using a parser or reading the combat log.

I just don’t think positionals ever added anything to MNK because buffs and debuffs didn’t depend on it in the past (Dragon Kick’s debuff may have at one point, though I’m pretty sure it didn’t). The Fury gauge doesn’t depend on it now. Our combo never depended on positionals to function period. Aside from a potency difference (which again, can’t really be eyeballed) they never really influenced gameplay or flow. A lazy monk could stand in one spot and their rotation would look exactly the same as a monk who hit every positional, just with less bodily movement.

You can move between the rear and flank for True Strike and Twin Snakes right now and the gameplay is exactly the same whether they have a positional bonus or not. The only reason not having it right now would matter is if the player is the path-of-least-resistance type who doesn’t move because they don’t need to and they want SE to force their hand.

If positionals did more for MNK than a simple potency bump then I would feel differently.

I think the gameplay of positionals (slightly shifting to the left/right) and the gameplay of Forbidden Chakra (pressing an oGCD the moment it lights up) to be equal in engagement to each other, that is to say not very engaging at all by themselves.


I did like the theme of MNK being the job that has to move constantly to hit sweet spots on enemies. But I do agree there has to be some kind of feedback from the game. What if hitting a positional built up 1/2 of a chakra? Or had a 50% chance to open a chakra on top of critical hits opening a chakra? There would have to be permanent overcap protection but I think it's a nice and simple way to integrate positionals.