Bring positive RNG

Everywhere. The game is scripted and repeats on a loop. Everything people do is doing the exact same dance again and again and again. Nothing changes, content gets old faster, and the difficulty in challenging content has to be ten times more punishing to ensure people do not do a single mistake else they get body checked. I have never trained to be a professional ballet dancer, but it sure does feel like I'm using a simulator for it, and in casual content, it's just pushing squares into squares and triangles into triangles, and there is not even a single variation in which order. RNG in encounter design and instance design would bring back more pause and breaks, and potentially encourage more multiplayer interaction beyond "hello / thanks for the party".

That was for encounters.

Now then for jobs: I said "positive". What's positive? RNG that does reward and doesn't frustrate. In opposition, negative RNG would be RNG that only brings frustration when not yielded the expected result.

Positive examples: simple skill procs, rng Fang & Claw and Wheeling Thrust proc order, Thundercloud (before a legion of sharpcast), AoE dots generating procs on old bard, Dark Dance on HW DRK, randomly induced busters and the likes that can be actively countered by defensives yielding beneficial procs (TBN style, just without the break requirement), etc.
Negative examples: minor arcana (damage vs heal), quick synthesis, old ARR/HW accuracy, etc.

I'm sure there is tons more to talk about here, and I know I'm probably asking for a total paradigm shift, but that's my tastes and my feedback.

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Originally Posted by Valence

rng Fang & Claw and Wheeling Thrust proc order

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jesus christ
https://i.imgur.com/n7QqhO1.jpeg

https://cdn.betterttv.net/emote/556f...e5e920/1x.webp

Things get boring when results are always guaranteed to be "good for you" and there is no risk.

The game doesn't really go that deep into what you're calling negative RNG. Most failure situations come from a player not preparing properly instead of random chance.

I feel like I overall understand where you're coming from. Doing a static rotation can feel stale, especially in a game where you are so seldom needing to change your rotation in any meaningful way in response to what happens during encounters.

That said, I feel like we should be very careful where we inject RNG into player's kits. For example, does randomizing whether I should press 1-2-3-4-5 versus 1-2-3-5-4 actually result in a more enjoyable play experience? Or does it simply add unrewarding busywork? Not everyone is going to agree. And I'll posit that the reason that not everyone is going to agree is because at a fundamental level, this interaction itself isn't innately fun; rather, it simply feels like a breath of fresh air to players who are so stifled by doing the same static rotation for years that even the most minor step away from that tastes like a feast. We can do better by focusing on what would be more universally enjoyable.

Personally, I hold up Thunder procs as one of the best uses of RNG, but I think it's so important to understand the context it exists in, because that's the reason it works so well! BLM is constantly juggling multiple timers to keep their plates spinning, and to do this they need to make sure they cast certain spells within certain windows. Cast too late and your plate falls on the floor, cast too early and you're losing some of your potential damage output. Because of this, BLM needs to actually consider and react to enemy behavior when determining what they will cast and when, because their cast times means they can't just change tactics on a dime without making sacrifices.

And it's within all this layered management and potential for failure that Thunder procs shine. Because you want to cast them ASAP, both because it feels good to press the juicy damage button and because the sooner you press it the sooner you can get another proc for even more damage. But these procs also require that you change your plan of how and when you're going to spend your resources in the limited time before your plates need another spin, which can be a challenge. So opting in to press this juicy button comes with a cost that you may not always be able to pay, and sometimes you may drop a plate you took a risk that didn't pay off.

I initially started writing this to hold up how Thunder does RNG right, and how that implementation probably has something good to learn that we could apply to other classes when using RNG. But in writing this, I think I've come to a different conclusion. Because RNG in and of itself doesn't make Thunder fun; rather, it's the potential for failure that makes RNG fun. If BLM couldn't drop those plates, then Thunder would just be a spell that periodically inserted itself into your rotation...and that's not very compelling. But since BLM can drop their plates, Thunder allows them to take a risk that will give them more damage if they succeed...with the potential outcome that the BLM bites off more than they can chew and all those plates come tumbling down.

So my updated response is this: we shouldn't be adding RNG to classes, we should be adding opportunities for failure into rotations in the form of risk/reward mechanics. Maybe those will have RNG, but maybe they won't. I'd hazard there are a lot of different ways to do that.

Anyway, food for thought! ^^

this isn't the kind of game where failure is rewarded tho.

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Originally Posted by ZiraZ

jesus christ
https://i.imgur.com/n7QqhO1.jpeg

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Seconded. Nah.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

The game doesn't really go that deep into what you're calling negative RNG.

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As a heavy map runner, Atrophied Atamos on the Gazelleskin Timeworn map roulette says a cheaty cheaty cheaty cheaty cheaty 'hi' to you before ejecting you from the instance after clicking over three times.

Well, granted, that's more blatant cheating, than negative RNG.

Stuff like redmage's procs make me feel absolutely nothing. Dancer becomes a lot less fun if you dont get feathers left and right.

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

we shouldn't be adding RNG to classes, we should be adding opportunities for failure into rotations in the form of risk/reward mechanics. Maybe those will have RNG, but maybe they won't. I'd hazard there are a lot of different ways to do that.

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I do get it, and I do feel like that's a nice idea.

However, this does not cause any mess because BLM is already a very niche job, being one of the hardest hitting and one of the most mechanically demanding (as in "you need to plan the fight much more than say bards or machinists since you can't move most of the time"). Thunder III does account for 10% of the overall total DPS, so good procs are rewarded, but the BLM merely syncs with the rest of the party, it doesn't have a CD that boosts its damage for the next 10s. That's why it's no issue. Otherwise, BLMs would rather have two procs during this burst than three outside of it.
If they were to have such a CD, obnoxious high-end players (not all of them are) would complain that the game is too RNG-heavy, and that's why they don't get rank 1 or whatever.

I've read countless discussions on people that want Crit and DH flattened into raw damage to mitigate the effects of RNG, for that very reason. And even abolishing parsers would not help : it's the same as DNC and old MCH really, when procs are part of a rotation, you're not happy when you get procs, you're bitter when you don't. Because there's no good or bad RNG, there's only good or bad minset. I'm all out for more RNG, I had much more fun with MCH back then, despite being really unlucky in general, but most people would simply not appreciate it, sadly.

Edit : I didn't see Saraide post at the time of writing this, but that's exactly what I meant : it's a mindset. And that's no personal attack, some people like RNG, some don't. I have issue with the ones that complains about the RNG effects on parses tho.

Fair enough for fang and claw / wheeling. I expected that kind of reply, and it didn't disappoint. Guess you can keep your uninteresting combos on melees...

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

For example, does randomizing whether I should press 1-2-3-4-5 versus 1-2-3-5-4 actually result in a more enjoyable play experience?

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That's a false shortcut to diminish proc systems on the base combo like this I feel. Your rng pattern will never be 1-2-3-5-4, the whole point is that it changes and isn't deterministic. And rng proc combos are literally the base level of rng design, there is a lot more one can do with it, and if the point of the OP seemed to be about making everything being a proc combo, then I apologize because that was definitely not the intent.

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

Personally, I hold up Thunder procs as one of the best uses of RNG, but I think it's so important to understand the context it exists in, because that's the reason it works so well! BLM is constantly juggling multiple timers to keep their plates spinning, and to do this they need to make sure they cast certain spells within certain windows. Cast too late and your plate falls on the floor, cast too early and you're losing some of your potential damage output. Because of this, BLM needs to actually consider and react to enemy behavior when determining what they will cast and when, because their cast times means they can't just change tactics on a dime without making sacrifices.

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Yeah in theory, until the past couple of expansions where the job is literally spamming sharpcast to make it matter very little those days. I do agree that it's cool though, and that's why I still listed it.

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

I initially started writing this to hold up how Thunder does RNG right, and how that implementation probably has something good to learn that we could apply to other classes when using RNG. But in writing this, I think I've come to a different conclusion. Because RNG in and of itself doesn't make Thunder fun; rather, it's the potential for failure that makes RNG fun. If BLM couldn't drop those plates, then Thunder would just be a spell that periodically inserted itself into your rotation...and that's not very compelling. But since BLM can drop their plates, Thunder allows them to take a risk that will give them more damage if they succeed...with the potential outcome that the BLM bites off more than they can chew and all those plates come tumbling down.

So my updated response is this: we shouldn't be adding RNG to classes, we should be adding opportunities for failure into rotations in the form of risk/reward mechanics. Maybe those will have RNG, but maybe they won't. I'd hazard there are a lot of different ways to do that.

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The slow removal of failure in most of the battlesystem is definitely a problem. If you think that failing a proc combo is not failure, then what is it? Juggling rng procs is also a form of skill check. And if said procs can be used for different purposes, then even better (it can be mobility like Thundercloud, and it can be other things like fitting them into specific sequences, getting as many possible up for a burst, etc).

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Originally Posted by Saraide

Stuff like redmage's procs make me feel absolutely nothing. Dancer becomes a lot less fun if you dont get feathers left and right.

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Red Mage procs are utterly boring and superficial, unlike old mch procs they take from.

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Originally Posted by Valence

Fair enough for fang and claw / wheeling. I expected that kind of reply, and it didn't disappoint. Guess you can keep your uninteresting combos on melees...

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They are interesting enough already for DRG, I don't see any reason to change them, the problem is the boss fights that are huge boring walls, but go do P11S on DRG and imagine what would happen if you had to account for rng and a highly spinny boss while being incapable to map pre-positioning/true north usage. It would just piss you off.

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Originally Posted by Valence

I'm sure there is tons more to talk about here, and I know I'm probably asking for a total paradigm shift, but that's my tastes and my feedback.

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Another not combat oriented form of RNG: extreme trial mounts

That they are random is perfectly fine, because totems are the alternative way to safeguard the ones which had bad rng. But it shouldnt take months. Some delay is fine to make the RNG reward more special when obtaining it early. But when you are already waiting 6+ months before you can use the totems, it feels needlessly long to wait for something you eventualy should get anyway. Its like the game punishes you for not trying to go further, instead of rewarding dedication, and this feels like a very negative thing (especialy when you collected all mounts already but lack the newest one even after obtaining 300+ totems). Its not rewarding dedication, its punishing it (since when it finaly does get released, those 200 extra totems will be completely worthless.

This is where i think it would be better if they changed the system a little:
Upon release up to a month: 2 totem per kill, not purchasable mount yet
After 1 month up to 3 months: mount becomes purchasable at 200 totems (your early grind that you took to the extreme can now be rewarded)
After 3 months: grant 3 totems per kill, reduce cost to 150 (speeds up the process a bit compensating for reduced attention)
Next patch release (or if extended duration between patch): reduce cost to 100 totems

As a bonus, i would even (if no other item drop is given) add a bonus totem that you can roll on, giving a bit more sense of progress and rewarding sense of RNG (could even drop 2 of these, but restrict it to only 1 totem per player per run). This will also benefit older extremes as now with faster completions, it does still generate a bit more totems (and those who got the mount generaly wont roll for these - and even if they do, so be it)

The 2 totems reward and its 50 required wins are no problem for anyone that is willing to farm now. This can be gotten in a month easily. If it becomes purchasable faster, going for more totems can get those players to continue longer (but they dont have to, as they know the price will eventualy drop). Make it feel rewarding to take the extra step, or make the wait feel rewarding. Now it doesnt do both and its just an anoying taunt in your inventory/chocobo/retainer.

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Originally Posted by Valence

Fair enough for fang and claw / wheeling. I expected that kind of reply, and it didn't disappoint. Guess you can keep your uninteresting combos on melees...

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That's your personal opinion. Haven't you said before that you're not interested in melee or positionals? Weird then that you'd call them uninteresting just because they're so for you.

Asking about randomness in FnC/WT specifically simply tells me you don't play the job. They're the worst actions to do that on.

Just to add to the DRG Fang and Claw/Wheeling Thrust discussion, when they were RNG in HW, many Dragoons didn't like it, especially when we were talking about extreme/savage fights. The main reason? You couldn't properly plan what you had to do. With only 2.5 seconds to see which one you had to use, then position properly, it just wasn't enough time, especially when you take into account boss movement along with other job mechanics. I'm pretty sure the reason it was changed in SB to guaranteed combos is because of the general dislike of the RNG.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

Just to add to the DRG Fang and Claw/Wheeling Thrust discussion, when they were RNG in HW, many Dragoons didn't like it, especially when we were talking about extreme/savage fights. The main reason? You couldn't properly plan what you had to do. With only 2.5 seconds to see which one you had to use, then position properly, it just wasn't enough time, especially when you take into account boss movement along with other job mechanics. I'm pretty sure the reason it was changed in SB to guaranteed combos is because of the general dislike of the RNG.

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Yep, it was not a fun mechanic.

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Originally Posted by UkcsAlias

Another not combat oriented form of RNG: extreme trial mounts

That they are random is perfectly fine, because totems are the alternative way to safeguard the ones which had bad rng. But it shouldnt take months. Some delay is fine to make the RNG reward more special when obtaining it early. But when you are already waiting 6+ months before you can use the totems, it feels needlessly long to wait for something you eventualy should get anyway. Its like the game punishes you for not trying to go further, instead of rewarding dedication, and this feels like a very negative thing (especialy when you collected all mounts already but lack the newest one even after obtaining 300+ totems). Its not rewarding dedication, its punishing it (since when it finaly does get released, those 200 extra totems will be completely worthless.

This is where i think it would be better if they changed the system a little:
Upon release up to a month: 2 totem per kill, not purchasable mount yet
After 1 month up to 3 months: mount becomes purchasable at 200 totems (your early grind that you took to the extreme can now be rewarded)
After 3 months: grant 3 totems per kill, reduce cost to 150 (speeds up the process a bit compensating for reduced attention)
Next patch release (or if extended duration between patch): reduce cost to 100 totems

As a bonus, i would even (if no other item drop is given) add a bonus totem that you can roll on, giving a bit more sense of progress and rewarding sense of RNG (could even drop 2 of these, but restrict it to only 1 totem per player per run). This will also benefit older extremes as now with faster completions, it does still generate a bit more totems (and those who got the mount generaly wont roll for these - and even if they do, so be it)

The 2 totems reward and its 50 required wins are no problem for anyone that is willing to farm now. This can be gotten in a month easily. If it becomes purchasable faster, going for more totems can get those players to continue longer (but they dont have to, as they know the price will eventualy drop). Make it feel rewarding to take the extra step, or make the wait feel rewarding. Now it doesnt do both and its just an anoying taunt in your inventory/chocobo/retainer.

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I don't think mount drop RNG is anywhere close to interesting RNG. It's just frustrating and nothing else. 99 totems to make up for it is just silly. I ain't gonna farm something 99 times. But I'm gonna get accused by people that like farming that I'm not the main audience of that mechanic so... idk.

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Originally Posted by Aco505

That's your personal opinion. Haven't you said before that you're not interested in melee or positionals? Weird then that you'd call them uninteresting just because they're so for you.

Asking about randomness in FnC/WT specifically simply tells me you don't play the job. They're the worst actions to do that on.

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They're uninteresting for me and I never claimed otherwise. I apologize if the reply read a bit salty, because sometimes I'm actually interested in melees, but some fundamentally different tastes and expectations like that remind me why I stay away from them beyond leveling. And as usual, if that's what melee mains want out of their melees, then I'll politely bow out and let them have it.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

Just to add to the DRG Fang and Claw/Wheeling Thrust discussion, when they were RNG in HW, many Dragoons didn't like it, especially when we were talking about extreme/savage fights. The main reason? You couldn't properly plan what you had to do. With only 2.5 seconds to see which one you had to use, then position properly, it just wasn't enough time, especially when you take into account boss movement along with other job mechanics. I'm pretty sure the reason it was changed in SB to guaranteed combos is because of the general dislike of the RNG.

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Originally Posted by ZiraZ

They are interesting enough already for DRG, I don't see any reason to change them, the problem is the boss fights that are huge boring walls, but go do P11S on DRG and imagine what would happen if you had to account for rng and a highly spinny boss while being incapable to map pre-positioning/true north usage. It would just piss you off.

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I do agree when combined with positionals, it's obnoxious. That's why I'd have felt more natural to have positionals on the fixed segments of the combo, and no positionals on the rng segments of it, but well.

We don't need rotations to be RNG, what we need is for fights to be more engaging. You should never be thinking about your rotation during a pull. You should be thinking how you are going to do the mechanic and your rotation together. Unfortunately because the game has become so easy now people want to mix up rotations. Just make the fights be more than fat enemy does in/out/spread/stack and tether.

Bring back more involving mechanics like Diabolos from Lost City. Any of the bosses from that 24 Bozja place, especially the fire and ice guy near the end, that was top tier stuff.

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Originally Posted by Asako

You should never be thinking about your rotation during a pull.

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Ew. Just ew.

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Originally Posted by Valence

I don't think mount drop RNG is anywhere close to interesting RNG. It's just frustrating and nothing else. 99 totems to make up for it is just silly. I ain't gonna farm something 99 times. But I'm gonna get accused by people that like farming that I'm not the main audience of that mechanic so... idk.

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Its not interesting RNG, but its still relevant RNG.

Combat rng when it triggers is supposed to make a player happy, the same idea still happens with rewards. And in most cases with rewards it does this fine (yes, you might miss out all rewards due to only getting greed options). It feels in most cases fair. And when a mount drops directly from a trial, it feels fair when you lose it.

But this is where it ends. As its not just extreme trial rewards, its also for alliance raid outfits. These can have horrible rng and often involve quite a bit of time. If RNG isnt in your favor here, there is nothing you can do. At least for the extreme mounts the totems will eventualy give the rewards, but for alliance raids, you can realy only do the raid. Which with its waiting time is an even bigger grind than the extreme.

This is why i think harder to obtain rewards should involve a reliable fallback that doesnt involve excessive waits. The excessive wait is after all only feeling as a punishment since you already had back luck in the first place (as that pushed you into the grind).

You gonna need to be more specific.
I don't understand how you want to change melee combo into rng combo. Especially with actual potency. It's gonna be a nightmare to week1 savage if your dps is rng because the game decide you are not going to do your best skill.
Or you need to fundamentaly change how the game works.

Did you try ultimate? They are pretty rng, especially TOP.

Really? I play rng jobs all the time and I don't see the problem at all. The thing with rng procs and similar mechanics is that as long as they are on a high sample amount during a whole fight the rng result on the final damage tends to drown a little into said sample. Not saying it has no impact mind you, but I do feel the true eye sore when it comes to damage variations is whether you dh crit or not on your big nukes, that have a very low sample size, which introduces insane swings. I'd totally agree for example if midare or hoshyo were on a proc, that would be nuts. It was actually the case for BRD when barrage didn't guarantee Refulgent and you had to use it on empyreal when RA just didn't want to proc. Do I miss the intricacies? Sure. But the damage variance felt very bad.

I also tried ultimates yes. I am not talking about rng markers and debuff vomit no. The mechanics remain the exact same into the exact same order. The rng is merely flourish variation on the same scripted choreography. It's not about tactics and RPG agency, it's about quickly adjusting your dance to a cue. There is so little else left in the game that the only way for them to bring difficulty is to crank up the perfect execution to ludicrous levels, add body checks everywhere, and make everything the most punishing possible when you miss a step, precisely because there is little rng left to introduce chaos and the unexpected.

You need to take into account that not everyone wants RNG in their jobs. Some like the fact they can plan everything out, some like the RNG nature, this is why there should be a spectrum of jobs that fill all those niches of playstyle. The same is true for positionals, not everyone likes a positional heavy job, but that doesn't mean one shouldn't exist (RIP Monk).

If we also go back to what you call 'positive RNG' (from the first post), you seem to be looking too much from one side. I've already mentioned RNG on DRG combos for Fang and Claw/Wheeling Thrust, so I'll talk about the others.

Thundercloud. Now, I'm not a BLM main by any stretch of the imagination, but I imagine, if everything lines up and you get your Thundercloud proc/Fire 3 procs when you want, it feels good, but, what if you don't get them. You are relying on them for movement, and they just won't proc. That is going to feel bad and I'm pretty sure that's why Sharpcast is as it is now, for more leeway. Yes, Swift/Triplecast exist, no you cannot rely on having them available when you need them.

AoE Dots on Bard, the only reason it felt good was because it proced a lot, I don't see you mentioning single target, which is a dead giveaway.

Dark Knight, technically, you didn't need Dark Dance, to activate Reprisal and reset Low Blow, Dark Dance just increased the chances of it happening.

Having a boss randomly buster you without warning is bad design, you will need some sort of tell that it is going to happen, then, assuming there is no guarantee that the boss is going to use a certain number of these busters, your performance in combat is entirely dependant on what the boss does and everything is out of your hands. Plus, it is just pressing a button to counter, i would hardly consider this as 'positive rng' and would actually consider this negative, however, I might be misunderstanding exactly what the intent was.

I also know you liked the old MCH combos with the ammo system, of which, the ammo is there to specifically negate the RNG.

There is something very common in all of these points, and that is the fact you have some sort of control over the RNG, whether it is DoTing more enemies for more proc chances, increasing the chance via Dark Dance, getting those guaranteed combos via ammo and, I suspect, having Flourish on Dancer helps in the burst phase as you can guarantee you have the required procs available, or the mass accumulation of Chakra on Monk during Brotherhood etc.

The RNG feels good when it works for us, when it activates, however, you also have to take into consideration when it doesn't. Those periods of time where you don't have something to help manipulate the RNG in your favour. Those times your 12 on Dancer never procs, or you never get a feather. Those times you want just that one Repertoire proc for a full power Pitch Perfect just before you go into Mage's Ballard, never getting the Verfire/Verstone procs on RDM, never generating a chakra stack between Bootshines on Monk etc. We have all had those bad patches, but they are the things that stick out more rather than the times it benefits us.

And, to comment on guaranteed procs in burst windows, if you were to take them, it would feel even worse. As you have already mentioned, not getting Refulgent Arrow back in SB in the burst felt really bad and the same can be said for other cases as well.

Again, to reiterate, I have no issue with jobs being RNG based but to claim RNG is the thing every job needs so that encounters can feel fun again, you are mistaken.

I can already see a huge difference in my opener if I crit or not and that can be enough to wipe on dps check if the team is unlucky and can't compensate even with a lb (it's rare but that often happened in p8s when we tried week1 or on p1 TOP since we don't always use "meta comp")

I'm asking you how you want it to be to understand what you mean by an exemple of "rotation" or something but you don't provide any.
Atleast a game exemple.
But tbh I don't see how that could happen without a massive change, at that point you should simply switch to another game.
If I want a MH like fights I play MH.

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Originally Posted by Valence

Really? I play rng jobs all the time and I don't see the problem at all. The thing with rng procs and similar mechanics is that as long as they are on a high sample amount during a whole fight the rng result on the final damage tends to drown a little into said sample. Not saying it has no impact mind you, but I do feel the true eye sore when it comes to damage variations is whether you dh crit or not on your big nukes, that have a very low sample size, which introduces insane swings. I'd totally agree for example if midare or hoshyo were on a proc, that would be nuts. It was actually the case for BRD when barrage didn't guarantee Refulgent and you had to use it on empyreal when RA just didn't want to proc. Do I miss the intricacies? Sure. But the damage variance felt very bad.

I also tried ultimates yes. I am not talking about rng markers and debuff vomit no. The mechanics remain the exact same into the exact same order. The rng is merely flourish variation on the same scripted choreography. It's not about tactics and RPG agency, it's about quickly adjusting your dance to a cue. There is so little else left in the game that the only way for them to bring difficulty is to crank up the perfect execution to ludicrous levels, add body checks everywhere, and make everything the most punishing possible when you miss a step, precisely because there is little rng left to introduce chaos and the unexpected.

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Have you done TOP or any crit as melee?
Very relevant to the topic of rng, I don't think you would've ever suggested that fang & claw and wheeling thrust rng thing if you've done fights like top p1 and p3 or any crit. and yes mechanics can absolutely can have small changes in the way you map true north and the way you "maneuver" a mechanic to squeeze positionals, specially when you are being risky.
I know the same is true for casters(real casters) and healers, I suppose the game is currently very different for range phys(and smn).

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Originally Posted by Valence

Really? I play rng jobs all the time and I don't see the problem at all. The thing with rng procs and similar mechanics is that as long as they are on a high sample amount during a whole fight the rng result on the final damage tends to drown a little into said sample.

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Ranged jobs don't have to worry about positional attacks. I believe that's what everyone is trying to get you to understand. For EX encounters (especially with echo) and below, melee jobs can pretty much ignore positionals unless they are min/maxing, but for more difficult encounters the potency losses on missed positional attacks are going to add up very quickly to the overall raid damage. Especially for DRG.

Jobs like BRD, DNC, and even BLM to a certain extent are pretty heavily based on RNG. Enough to the point where poor/great RNG can affect the overall performance of someone who is really putting in an effort play effectively. Even if you are not a serious PvE player, you can do something like expert crafting or big game fishing to see how RNG can make or break even a player who knows full well what they are doing and puts in a ton of effort towards their stats to "hopefully" swing RNG in their favor.

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Originally Posted by Valence

I don't think mount drop RNG is anywhere close to interesting RNG. It's just frustrating and nothing else. 99 totems to make up for it is just silly. I ain't gonna farm something 99 times. But I'm gonna get accused by people that like farming that I'm not the main audience of that mechanic so... idk.

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It's not supposed to be interesting. It's supposed to be frustrating. Could you imagine how quickly this content would die out if mounts were handed out like candy? The RNG and totem system is designed specifically to give the content longevity. It gives the players who choose to participate in the fights later in the patch a fair chance to get their clears. The fights also drop weapon coffers, weapons, sheet music, and a crafting mat. You can desynth the weapons for an additional chance at obtaining the crafting mat. Some of these items are also marketable and fetch a good amount of gil for them if increasing this number is something you place importance on.

There really is no such thing as positive/negative RNG when what determines if it is positive or negative rests solely on the outcome.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

You need to take into account that not everyone wants RNG in their jobs. Some like the fact they can plan everything out, some like the RNG nature, this is why there should be a spectrum of jobs that fill all those niches of playstyle. The same is true for positionals, not everyone likes a positional heavy job, but that doesn't mean one shouldn't exist (RIP Monk).

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I never stated the opposite.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

I've already mentioned RNG on DRG combos for Fang and Claw/Wheeling Thrust, so I'll talk about the others.

Thundercloud. Now, I'm not a BLM main by any stretch of the imagination, but I imagine, if everything lines up and you get your Thundercloud proc/Fire 3 procs when you want, it feels good, but, what if you don't get them. You are relying on them for movement, and they just won't proc. That is going to feel bad and I'm pretty sure that's why Sharpcast is as it is now, for more leeway. Yes, Swift/Triplecast exist, no you cannot rely on having them available when you need them.

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If you get a sharpcast for every thunder cast and more like you do today, is it still RNG? I don't think it is, it's just fake at best. The whole deal has always been about adjusting to it, but now you barely do that at all. You pop sharpcast every time and get a free proc to use until the next. Very rng, very adjustment, much wow. If anything sharpcast thundercloud has turned into a cumbersome non standard lines fodder.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

AoE Dots on Bard, the only reason it felt good was because it proced a lot, I don't see you mentioning single target, which is a dead giveaway.

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The reason it feels better on AoE than single target is because you can feel the damage it does, unlike on the latter which is just carpal tunnel. Does it still feel good today? A bit more than Bloodletter spamm, for the aforementioned reason. Does it actually feel super rewarding? No, because it's not tied anymore to dot prepositioning, rng variations, and skill. Now you pop the song and you just spamm it.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

Dark Knight, technically, you didn't need Dark Dance, to activate Reprisal and reset Low Blow, Dark Dance just increased the chances of it happening.

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Yes, and it was a nice skill, a thousand times more interesting than "press a button and get x% mitigation, that's it". Not only do you mitigate and do your job as tank, but on top of it you get rewarded for it.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

Having a boss randomly buster you without warning is bad design, you will need some sort of tell that it is going to happen

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Yes and no, it depends of the buster. Something that will delete you? Sure. ARR was full of smaller hard hitting attacks, boss crits, etc, that introduced a lot of chaos.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

assuming there is no guarantee that the boss is going to use a certain number of these busters, your performance in combat is entirely dependant on what the boss does and everything is out of your hands.

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It's no different than any proc job. Provide a high enough sample, on small enough potencies (not nukes), and you're good to go.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

I also know you liked the old MCH combos with the ammo system, of which, the ammo is there to specifically negate the RNG.

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The ammo is exactly like dark dance. It doesn't make your rotation deterministic. It even adds complexity to the burst. I don't understand what you're trying to prove with the ammo example?

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

There is something very common in all of these points, and that is the fact you have some sort of control over the RNG, whether it is DoTing more enemies for more proc chances, increasing the chance via Dark Dance, getting those guaranteed combos via ammo and, I suspect, having Flourish on Dancer helps in the burst phase as you can guarantee you have the required procs available, or the mass accumulation of Chakra on Monk during Brotherhood etc.

The RNG feels good when it works for us, when it activates, however, you also have to take into consideration when it doesn't. Those periods of time where you don't have something to help manipulate the RNG in your favour. Those times your 12 on Dancer never procs, or you never get a feather. Those times you want just that one Repertoire proc for a full power Pitch Perfect just before you go into Mage's Ballard, never getting the Verfire/Verstone procs on RDM, never generating a chakra stack between Bootshines on Monk etc. We have all had those bad patches, but they are the things that stick out more rather than the times it benefits us.

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Control over the toolkit and bringing player agency is great. I'll never say the opposite.

Can't say I agree with your examples though. Feeling like shit about things like that sounds to me like you just don't enjoy rng and proc jobs period. You tell me that I am looking too much from one side, but it sounds like you're not doing better there tbh.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

And, to comment on guaranteed procs in burst windows, if you were to take them, it would feel even worse. As you have already mentioned, not getting Refulgent Arrow back in SB in the burst felt really bad and the same can be said for other cases as well.

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That's because it was (and still is) your main nuke/attack. It would be like making midare a proc.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

Again, to reiterate, I have no issue with jobs being RNG based but to claim RNG is the thing every job needs so that encounters can feel fun again, you are mistaken.

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Again and i'm sorry but this is also a gigantic strawman.

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Originally Posted by Jeycht

I can already see a huge difference in my opener if I crit or not and that can be enough to wipe on dps check if the team is unlucky and can't compensate even with a lb (it's rare but that often happened in p8s when we tried week1 or on p1 TOP since we don't always use "meta comp")

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If you crit yes. Did you even read what I wrote above on crit variance vs proc variance?

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Originally Posted by Jeycht

I'm asking you how you want it to be to understand what you mean by an exemple of "rotation" or something but you don't provide any.
Atleast a game exemple.

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I have no idea what you're asking or referring to?

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Originally Posted by Jeycht

If I want a MH like fights I play MH.

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Ah yes, the "if you dont like something, just quit the game" argument. Nice.

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Originally Posted by ZiraZ

Have you done TOP or any crit as melee?
Very relevant to the topic of rng, I don't think you would've ever suggested that fang & claw and wheeling thrust rng thing if you've done fights like top p1 and p3 or any crit. and yes mechanics can absolutely can have small changes in the way you map true north and the way you "maneuver" a mechanic to squeeze positionals, specially when you are being risky.
I know the same is true for casters(real casters) and healers, I suppose the game is currently very different for range phys(and smn).

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No, TOP is one ultimate I haven't done. I suggested that wheeling and fang thing without the positionals in mind, which is true, and I probably deserved the memes on first page, but as I said, you could perfectly move the positionals out of those and give them to the fixed sections of the combos. Either way, I'm not gonna die on that hill, and certainly not for melee jobs. As I've said, fair enough. Makes me even less willing to play melee, but that's not what I main, and if you enjoy deterministic stuff, then that's great for you. As stated in the OP, I'm mostly giving feedback about my own tastes.

Still amused that people are literally fixated to that detail though.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

Ranged jobs don't have to worry about positional attacks. I believe that's what everyone is trying to get you to understand. For EX encounters (especially with echo) and below, melee jobs can pretty much ignore positionals unless they are min/maxing, but for more difficult encounters the potency losses on missed positional attacks are going to add up very quickly to the overall raid damage. Especially for DRG.

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Wow, wow, slow down. I've never said anywhere that melees should ignore their positionals, even if positionals those days are very close to this already for 95% of the content anyway.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

Jobs like BRD, DNC, and even BLM to a certain extent are pretty heavily based on RNG.

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Come on, I can buy this for BRD and perhaps DNC/RDM (which aren't full rng jobs), but BLM? rng and proc jobs are an endangered species.

Also question: if melees aren't allowed rng on some of them, then why do I have to eat fixed bland combos on MCH?

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Originally Posted by Gemina

Enough to the point where poor/great RNG can affect the overall performance of someone who is really putting in an effort play effectively. Even if you are not a serious PvE player, you can do something like expert crafting or big game fishing to see how RNG can make or break even a player who knows full well what they are doing and puts in a ton of effort towards their stats to "hopefully" swing RNG in their favor.

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Are you really comparing expert recipes and fishing to pve proc jobs?

People thinking that good or bad rng actually murders pve performance are being pretty delusional, cf my post higher. The biggest variance culprit is dh crit on low samples and nukes. Procs do not happen on those.

RNG generates variance about a mean. Definitionally, you cannot have the positive without the negative.

You're trying to bait the use of the terms in the OP into a direction they were definitely not intended as. Why are you speaking about mathematical positives and negatives? And how do you even define encounter mechanics under such a metric?

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Originally Posted by Valence

You're trying to bait the use of the terms in the OP into a direction they were definitely not intended as. Why are you speaking about mathematical positives and negatives? And how do you even define encounter mechanics under such a metric?

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Not trying to bait anyone. The OP made no sense to me, because of what RNG is.

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Originally Posted by Valence

Now then for jobs: I said "positive". What's positive? RNG that does reward and doesn't frustrate. In opposition, negative RNG would be RNG that only brings frustration when not yielded the expected result.

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Perhaps I should elaborate using that post.

Suppose the RNG for a proc is set such that it triggers 50% of the time. Sometimes it will, sometimes it won't. When it does, it's positive (rewarding). When it doesn't, it's negative (frustrating). You can't simply have the positive, that's the fundamental nature of random events.