Bring back Kaiten please

No seriously SE that was a funny joke you pulled taking off the one ability nobody complained about.

I still to this day do not understand its removal. Though tbf I do not play SAM and actually hate the job, so I'm unaware of how problematic/unproblematic it was, but given how I only see people complaining about its removal, I'm willing to bet this is a case of SE enacting a change no one wanted.

it was a great skill. nice animation and you felt that impact when you used it for a big follow up skill.
it made the job more fun to play... at least for me.

i dont really think it comes back, but yeah pls, bring it back

I only played SAM a little bit a long while ago but how it worked was it boosted the damage of your big skills. You would build up your bar as you unlocked seals and then you would use up some of your bar to trigger Kaiten so you get some big damage when you used up your seals. If you had a full bar you could Kaiten, use your seals, use your ability to rapidly gain a seal by bypassing the combo, Kaiten again, and then use the seals up again very quickly for a huge burst.

https://i.imgur.com/IGOC8D7.png

Since Kaiten is gone, I have never again touched my Samurai. All I did, I made 640er Gear for that Job and that's all.

Yes. Bring back Baiken. Game needs 1 armed samurai waifu :3

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Originally Posted by Aneshda

Since Kaiten is gone, I have never again touched my Samurai. All I did, I made 640er Gear for that Job and that's all.

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I did a few months ago and i still used my Kaiten keybind mechanically, of all the thing they could have get rid of they probably chose the worst option.

Samurai is a good exemple of what happen when you try to simplify what is already one of the simplest gameplay available in that game, the only thing they achieve is making it less enjoyable.

*intercom noises*

paging the "Give me back my Kaiten" forum poster. Your meme's are needed!

Suprising the kenki problem hasn't been fixed since they removed Kaiten.

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Originally Posted by EZGIL

*intercom noises*

paging the "Give me back my Kaiten" forum poster. Your meme's are needed!

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Seriously, the ONE time he would be on-topic and he's nowhere to be seen

Unpopular opinion, but I understand "why" they removed it and therefore don't blame them for that reason.

Unless I am wrong, there wasn't a single instance where you'd NOT use Kaiten before an Iaijutsu, not using it on one was basically a failstate and using it on old combo finishers as well, given the potency difference. This is different from buttons like old Dark Arts, Life Surge, Reassemble etc. where you did use instances of the skills you usually enhance as their unenhanced version, save for Carve and Spit, that small MP vs losing 350 potency was laughable.

So while we may have liked it, it was basically a soft-mandatory button press before every Higanbana / Tenka Gokken / Midare Setsugekka if you played seriously as not doing so was a fairly sizeable damage loss if you repeated it over time. So I can see why they dropped it out of the sky and called it Button Bloat, even if worse skills like Shoha II exist.

We need different Kenki spenders, but I feel like Kaiten wasn't it. What I do miss however is Hissatsu: Seigan instead of just gaining flat +10 Kenki on Third Eye.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

Unpopular opinion, but I understand "why" they removed it and therefore don't blame them for that reason.

Unless I am wrong, there wasn't a single instance where you'd NOT use Kaiten before an Iaijutsu, not using it on one was basically a failstate and using it on old combo finishers as well, given the potency difference. This is different from buttons like old Dark Arts, Life Surge, Reassemble etc. where you did use instances of the skills you usually enhance as their unenhanced version, save for Carve and Spit, that small MP vs losing 350 potency was laughable.

So while we may have liked it, it was basically a soft-mandatory button press before every Higanbana / Tenka Gokken / Midare Setsugekka if you played seriously as not doing so was a fairly sizeable damage loss if you repeated it over time. So I can see why they dropped it out of the sky and called it Button Bloat, even if worse skills like Shoha II exist.

We need different Kenki spenders, but I feel like Kaiten wasn't it. What I do miss however is Hissatsu: Seigan instead of just gaining flat +10 Kenki on Third Eye.

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So what is your suggestion for different Kenki spender? Keep in mind that it always must have highest possible damage, no "deals half damage of shinten, but heals you" kind of deal.

You have Senei, which is basically swole Shinten on 120s CD. Then Shinten, which is lowest priority spender. So what do you suggest? Senei II, which deals higher damage than Shinten, lower than Senei, but on 60s CD? Great, now you have 3 essentially identical skills, what a waste of buttons.

Kaiten is one of few remaining ways how to make gauge interesting. From top of my head, I don't remember any gauge which needs some minimal value. You just pool most gauges, make sure you don't overcap it, and then use it in burst. Kenki was so unique because you were balancing both overcapping, and making sure you have enough for Kaiten. This was really unique mechanism in the game, and it got axed for what, some made up bullshit like action bloat - which is false, SAM has identical APM in burst, or because of some button bloat excuses, even though we have stuff like Shoha II. Maybe because it was "hard" for some? That is called skill curve. Even though it was pretty easy, it was still relevant, since it was distinguishing bad player from very bad player.

There just isn't any good reason, even if you believe that X before every Y is bad design, game has much more glaring issues, like healers doing 1111111111111111111111111111111, caster job which isn't a caster, and so on, yet they don't solve these problems, but for some reason, they're fine with gutting job which people were happy with, and then ignoring our feedback, which they specifically asked for.

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Originally Posted by Soge01

Suprising the kenki problem hasn't been fixed since they removed Kaiten.

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What's surprising about that? Kenki became yet another regulated gauge, following all of SE's norms and technical standards. 0-100, don't overcap it, pool it for burst, rinse and repeat.

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Originally Posted by Deo14

So what is your suggestion for different Kenki spender? Keep in mind that it always must have highest possible damage, no "deals half damage of shinten, but heals you" kind of bullshit.

You have Senei, which is basically swole Shinten on 120s CD. Then Shinten, which is lowest priority spender. So what do you suggest? Senei II, which deals higher damage than Shinten, lower than Senei, but on 60s CD? Great, now you have 3 essentially identical skills, what a waste of buttons.

Kaiten is one of few remaining ways how to make gauge interesting. From top of my head, I don't remember any gauge which needs some minimal value. You just pool most gauges, make sure you don't overcap it, and then use it in burst. Kenki was so unique because you were balancing both overcapping, and making sure you have enough for Kaiten. This was really unique mechanism in the game, and it got axed for what, some made up bullshit like action bloat - which is false, SAM has identical APM in burst, or because of some button bloat excuses, even though we have shit like Shoha II. Maybe because it was "hard" for some? That is called skill curve. Even though it was pretty easy, it was still relevant, since it was distinguishing bad player from very bad player.

There just isn't any good reason, even if you believe that X before every Y is bad design, game has much more glaring issues, like healers doing 1111111111111111111111111111111, caster job which isn't a caster, and so on, yet they don't solve these problems, but for some reason, they're fine with gutting job which people were happy with, and then ignoring our feedback, which they specifically asked for.

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I don't play SAM but man I'm upset for y'all. This sounds so stupid and unnecessary. Button bloat is such an awful excuse given there are other jobs that are far worse offenders than SAM.

#bringbackkaiten

been a samurai main since it's release and i do not miss kaiten one bit...
In fact, current samurai is the most fun i've ever had playing it.

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Originally Posted by Brownondorf

been a samurai main since it's release and i do not miss kaiten one bit...
In fact, current samurai is the most fun i've ever had playing it.

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I respect this, but the fact that Kaiten made your Iaijutsu's 100% more cooler and was super satisfying to do is the reason why me and prolly many others who dont care for the neckbeard optimal rotations still cry for its removal. It's an outright removal of a unique function that played with the class fantasy.

I still enjoy SAM no matter what, but I would've still enjoyed it even more had they'd not remove that ability.

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Originally Posted by Deo14

So what is your suggestion for different Kenki spender? Keep in mind that it always must have highest possible damage, no "deals half damage of shinten, but heals you" kind of bullshit.[...]

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Kaiten itself, which I don't consider bad game design by default given I liked Dark Arts on DRK, the problem was essentially it was just so freely accessible that it was basically "the other Shinten but only before you use Iaijutsu, which you do all the time". If it had a short CD (like 15-20s) and/or had other benefits than "enhances weaponskill by x% damage" to make it stand out from Shinten, like "if you used it on X the next 3-5 weaponskills generate Z amounts of extra Kenki" or something else crazy it could have more varied application than just doing +50% on Iaijutsu to get intended damage.

So what other spenders could there be? Depends, generally having skills / resources of a job interacting with each other is a good way to go about it - frankly we had Meikyo Shisui never be a Kenki spender (however it WAS a TP-spender in an iteration of Stormblood PvP) and Shoha stacks also were independent from that resource when it got introduced. Every buff relevant to SAM also has been as free as ever when it got released (dmg up, speed up) and at pretty long durations, so there is no rattling on that door either. Conditional spenders like Seigan were a favourite of mine, I also think having Guren / Senei cost the same Kenki as Shinten is whack but that one is personal.

Drawing inspirations from Stormblood Dark Knight to understand what it meant, MP + Blood had various elements of interplay like TBN costing MP but generating Blood, Quietus costing Blood but generating MP, Delirium costing Blood but refunding the MP you used on TBN prior, etc. - there could be 100% more than just Shinten/Kyuten and Kaiten and there could have been ways to make Kaiten more interactive than being the glorified Iaijutsu combo. Im not defending the removal, I am only playing devil's advocate that I can understand why they came to the conclusion about Kaiten, even if it went against our feedback.

I just personally don't miss it in the state as it was, that's all.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

Kaiten itself, which I don't consider bad game design by default given I liked Dark Arts on DRK, the problem was essentially it was just so freely accessible that it was basically "the other Shinten but only before you use Iaijutsu, which you do all the time". If it had a short CD (like 15-20s) and/or had other benefits than "enhances weaponskill by x% damage" to make it stand out from Shinten, like "if you used it on X the next 3-5 weaponskills generate Z amounts of extra Kenki" or something else crazy it could have more varied application than just doing +50% on Iaijutsu to get intended damage.

So what other spenders could there be? Depends, generally having skills / resources of a job interacting with each other is a good way to go about it - frankly we had Meikyo Shisui never be a Kenki spender (however it WAS a TP-spender in an iteration of Stormblood PvP) and Shoha stacks also were independent from that resource when it got introduced. Every buff relevant to SAM also has been as free as ever when it got released (dmg up, speed up) and at pretty long durations, so there is no rattling on that door either. Conditional spenders like Seigan were a favourite of mine, I also think having Guren / Senei cost the same Kenki as Shinten is whack but that one is personal.

Drawing inspirations from Stormblood Dark Knight to understand what it meant, MP + Blood had various elements of interplay like TBN costing MP but generating Blood, Quietus costing Blood but generating MP, Delirium costing Blood but refunding the MP you used on TBN prior, etc. - there could be 100% more than just Shinten/Kyuten and Kaiten and there could have been ways to make Kaiten more interactive than being the glorified Iaijutsu combo. Im not defending the removal, I am only playing devil's advocate that I can understand why they came to the conclusion about Kaiten, even if it went against our feedback.

I just personally don't miss it in the state as it was, that's all.

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I haven't played in SB, but those DRK mechs seems somewhat more complex/involved compared to today's standards - do you believe they realistically have some chance of returning? Not those specific you listed, but new SAM mechs with similar spirit, something like spending Kenki to upkeep current 2 buffs or similar, more involved mechs. Because this seems more complex and convoluted, and current direction goes in exact opposite way. Which is why I think Kaiten was something not necessarily best, but something that actually did follow this more simplistic approach, while making Kenki more interesting than most gauges.

At least with Kaiten and their Hissatsus larger kenki cost back in ShB, I felt I had to be mindful with my Shintens to have enough to dump Senei & 2 Kaitens at the looping reopeners. EW launch reduced the cost but it still had Kaiten so hey uh, I still had to be mindful, just slightly less. Nowaday it's just Shinone Shintwo Shinthree Shinfour Shinfive Shinsix Shinseven Shineight Shinnine Shinten lmfao. Ikishoten guarantees you'll able to pump off Senei it takes another level of unawareness to not have it ready.

Their reasoning behind its removal imho doesn't makes any sense at all. If they want to reduce the bloat then why Shoha II exist; why can't Ikishoten be merged with Ougi Namikiri; why can't Senei & Guren combined into full damage at first target with AoE damage fall off?

... Yeah, no. I've dropped SAM even though I've been only a casual enjoyer of the job from beginning---it was fun to play it until they take that element away.

Maybe next thing they'll do is to remove the gauge and give Shinten its own short cooldown with charges lmao. "Let the game play it for you" as some people says.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

At least with Kaiten and their Hissatsus larger kenki cost back in ShB, I felt I had to be mindful with my Shintens to have enough to dump Senei & 2 Kaitens at the looping reopeners. EW launch reduced the cost but it still had Kaiten so hey uh, I still had to be mindful, just slightly less. Nowaday it's just Shinone Shintwo Shinthree Shinfour Shinfive Shinsix Shinseven Shineight Shinnine Shinten lmfao. Ikishoten guarantees you'll able to pump off Senei it takes another level of unawareness to not have it ready.

Their reasoning behind its removal imho doesn't makes any sense at all. If they want to reduce the bloat then why Shoha II exist; why can't Ikishoten be merged with Ougi Namikiri; why can't Senei & Guren combined into full damage at first target with AoE damage fall off?

... Yeah, no. I've dropped SAM even though I've been only a casual enjoyer of the job from beginning---it was fun to play it until they take that element away.

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If they want to remove button bloat, why do Cure 1, Benefic, and Physick not become their upgrades? Why do healers have so many tools they barely have to make use of? Why does SMN Physick not scale properly/not become a Phoenix spell/even exist? Why does Scathe exist?

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Originally Posted by Deo14

What's surprising about that? Kenki became yet another regulated gauge, following all of SE's norms and technical standards. 0-100, don't overcap it, pool it for burst, rinse and repeat.

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What I mean is Kenki has nothing to be spent on other than Shinten and its AoE counterpart in exchange for Kaiten's removal. Its a pretty big oversight and should have been addressed, like, more than a year ago, lol!

It would have been better if the more Kenki you had, your Shinten and Shinten AoE would "evolve", dealing greater damage with a completely different animation in exchange for more Kenki, the higher the gauge is. You know, as a brainless example to fix the Kenki gauge spending problem.

Well, now that Samurai just uses Shinten all the time, looks like the problem is actually Shinten no?

Instead of giving back Kaiten it looks like we shall remove Shinten. :)

Oh my, that means you'll only use Kenki on Senei now. Hmm, that means Kenki is redundant since you always use it on Senei. So let's remove Kenki altogether :)

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Originally Posted by Soge01

What I mean is Kenki has nothing to be spent on other than Shinten and its AoE counterpart in exchange for Kaiten's removal. Its a pretty big oversight and should have been addressed, like, more than year ago, lol!

It would have been better if the more Kenki you had, your Shinten and Shinten AoE would "evolve", dealing greater damage with a completely different animation in exchange for more Kenki, the higher the gauge is.

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It was just a sarcastic remark towards SE dumbing everything down and homogenizing even gauges.

That idea is definitely interesting, but I'm not sure how would it work in this game. Doing 1 big hit instead of multiple small hits will be pretty bad in current 2min meta, it would probably become guaranteed hit. And I don't think there would be really choice which version you want to use. If bigger hit had more potency per Kenki, it would be always used. If it had same potency per Kenki, then it will probably still be used, because it would be easier.

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Originally Posted by Zebraoracle

If they want to remove button bloat, why do Cure 1, Benefic, and Physick not become their upgrades? Why do healers have so many tools they barely have to make use of?[...]

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Who knows? At this point, I'm quite convinced none of them plays healer beyond lv30-50 & its starting job quest to even notice this lmao.

Also Undraw at lv30: :exist:

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Why does SMN Physick not scale properly/not become a Phoenix spell/even exist?

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A joke that I made not long ago: "Maybe they realized removing Physick off will make their hotbar even more barren than it already is without that little sparkly icon lmao."

Not sure about Scathe. Although I remember reading some PotD solo guide had wrote that BLMs had to rely on kiting with Scathe to survive in their climb, so 'eh'(?):confused:

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Personally, I have no issue with their intent to reduce button bloat. But they could not have done it anyway worse than that. To add insult to the injury, that one element that I enjoy was taken away without given anything meaningful in return.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

Their reasoning behind its removal imho doesn't makes any sense at all. If they want to reduce the bloat then why Shoha II exist; why can't Ikishoten be merged with Ougi Namikiri; why can't Senei & Guren combined into full damage at first target with AoE damage fall off?

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They actually said they wanted to remove the bloat of actions to be used within burst iirc, not button bloat. Which they also completely failed to do, because every Kaiten is now replaced with a Shinten, leading to almost the same number of buttons being used in burst. In the end, the Kaiten removal was pointless.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

They actually said they wanted to remove the bloat of actions to be used within burst iirc, not button bloat. Which they also completely failed to do, because every Kaiten is now replaced with a Shinten, leading to almost the same number of buttons being used in burst. In the end, the Kaiten removal was pointless.

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Not even almost, it's exactly identical:
https://i.imgur.com/bXP4iBf.png

So, as an outsider, I have to wonder, if an ability being removed changes absolutely nothing about a jobs rotation, doesn't that imply that two abilities were essentially filling the same space, and so it makes sense to remove one of them?

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Originally Posted by Boblawblah

So, as an outsider, I have to wonder, if an ability being removed changes absolutely nothing about a jobs rotation, doesn't that imply that two abilities were essentially filling the same space, and so it makes sense to remove one of them?

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If you want to close both your eyes while defining "essentially", then yes, but Kaiten killed Kenki management and made Shinten 20-23% of SAM's all actions, meaning that on average, every 5th button you press is Shinten.

Might be comparable to RDM's black and white mana spells - they essentially do same things, so it makes sense to remove all white or all black spells, right?

Don't know what you guys talking about he's right there /s
https://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/w/imag...0px-Keiten.png

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Originally Posted by Deo14

If you want to close both your eyes while defining "essentially", then yes, but Kaiten killed Kenki management and made Shinten 20-23% of SAM's all actions, meaning that on average, every 5th button you press is Shinten.

Might be comparable to RDM's black and white mana spells - they essentially do same things, so it makes sense to remove all white or all black spells, right?

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Snark is always the best way to argue your point.

https://i.gyazo.com/dd884b84194ddfbf...eef00711e3.png

return Tenka Gokken to a cone too while youre at it, please

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Originally Posted by Deo14

It was just a sarcastic remark towards SE dumbing everything down and homogenizing even gauges.

That idea is definitely interesting, but I'm not sure how would it work in this game. Doing 1 big hit instead of multiple small hits will be pretty bad in current 2min meta, it would probably become guaranteed hit. And I don't think there would be really choice which version you want to use. If bigger hit had more potency per Kenki, it would be always used. If it had same potency per Kenki, then it will probably still be used, because it would be easier.

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Ah, sorry for the misunderstanding.

Yeah, I wouldn't know how such an idea would work with this current meta, either. It was really the first thing to come to mind as a potential solution since if Shinten and AoE Shinten are all we'll be able to use the Kenki gauge for, then we might as well get some sort bonus effect for said skills that help us drain the Kenki gauge without always being forced to spam.

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Originally Posted by VentVanitas

https://i.gyazo.com/dd884b84194ddfbf...eef00711e3.png

return Tenka Gokken to a cone too while youre at it, please

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I miss how good that move felt when weaving in out between groups of mobs. Just...made you feel like you were more skilled at the job. :<

I've put this game into maintenance mode (only because of housing) until 7.0. If they don't give back Kaiten or at least replace it/Kenki (NOT REMOVING) I'm going to drop the game for good and move on while I still have good memories of 14. I've never been a fan of how they have constantly simplified the game to the point where gacha games have more meat in their systems. I've told myself repeatedly that they were taking away systems to improve on them since ARR, because I came from 1.0 I wanted to have faith in 14's future. I can count on one hand the times they revamped a system rather than removing it completely. Coming into Endwalker my friend group thought that now the original story is finished it would be a good time to put a fresh start on everything and take the training wheels off, but as it is now we feel that the wheels are welded on rather than held by some screws. What kept a lot of us going was the social aspect, but even that isn't enough anymore and our linkshells and fcs are pretty much barren with people moving on due to dissatisfaction/boredom. Job balance is a joke and class identity is basically nonexistent.

I don't care how many times people want to try and justify it's removal, the fact of the matter is it accomplished absolutely nothing. There are jobs that actually need help being ignored because their efforts are put into needless adjustments.

Last I checked I was playing Samurai and not some poor imitation of Fencer, which is what all this Shinten spam might as well be. Even during Hagakure days it wasn't this bad. Don't really know what else to say on this matter that hasn't already been said, I've said my piece in my own thread and Celesti has a compilation of threads in the DPS section. This isn't me saying the game is bad everywhere. I really love a lot about this game but I can't excuse how poor combat feels anymore.

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Originally Posted by Boblawblah

So, as an outsider, I have to wonder, if an ability being removed changes absolutely nothing about a jobs rotation, doesn't that imply that two abilities were essentially filling the same space, and so it makes sense to remove one of them?

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It actually does change the job's rotation, the reason that Shinten replaces all Kaiten usage in burst is because where Kaiten is used before now leaves excess kenki, which can only be spent on Shinten. The use cases outside of burst did vary.

samurai dark arts

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Originally Posted by Oizen

samurai dark arts

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Indeed but Dark art animation looked stupid :3

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Originally Posted by Aravell

It actually does change the job's rotation, the reason that Shinten replaces all Kaiten usage in burst is because where Kaiten is used before now leaves excess kenki, which can only be spent on Shinten. The use cases outside of burst did vary.

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Being honest, though, Samurai has always been vomiting Shintens at least semi-constantly, because it has an abnormally-low Gauge cost for a spender.

It was probably(?) worse in Stormblood, due to Hagakure functionality, but Ikishoten at least partially recompensated that, and then ripping out Kaiten (and prior to that, Seigan) of course magnified it even more.

I'm pretty sure the real problem here is Shinten and Kenki just being poorly-designed from the very beginning, and clashing badly with the hypothetical "slow, methodical, suddenly-striking swordsman" fantasy — it's hard to feel like a classic Samurai movie duel when you're awkwardly and frantically stabbing your blade into something's face every few seconds.

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Originally Posted by Syln

Indeed but Dark art animation looked stupid :3

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It was arguably the best looking buff ability wdym smh my head.

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Originally Posted by WantlessYoYo

Don't know what you guys talking about he's right there /s
https://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/w/imag...0px-Keiten.png

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Lol meanwhile in PvP having Kaiten at home and be meaningful:

Hissatsu: Soten

Swiftly charges forward, dealing damage with a potency of 4,000 to targets in your path.
Additional Effect: Grants Kaiten
Duration: 10s
Maximum Charges: 3
Cannot be executed while bound.

※Yukikaze changes to Hyosetsu while under the effect of Kaiten.
※Gekko changes to Mangetsu while under the effect of Kaiten.
※Kasha changes to Oka while under the effect of Kaiten.


In the same patch they deleted PvE Kaiten no less.

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Originally Posted by WantlessYoYo

Don't know what you guys talking about he's right there /s
https://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/w/imag...0px-Keiten.png

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This is like a Raiden/Raiden sort of thing like in Mortal Kombat right?