PvP: WAR adjustments (suggestion)

Welcome to this thread! This will be about a few ideas I have to make PvP Warrior have a bit more quality of life and some slight buffs. This is the first suggestion of mine of one of potentially a few more to come.

To preface this, I know WAR is already in a decent spot in regards to Crystalline Conflict and chances are you might see the power of the job to be bigger than I do, however there are some things that I wish to change to make the job feel more fluid to play. Feel free to discuss the ideas and explain what you might do differently.


Storm's Path

• The effect of "Grants 'Fell Cleave ready' upon execution of Storm's Path" has been added. (Duration: 15s {6-10s}, up to a maximum of 30s 20s)

// Base effect duration is in line with combo timer expiring Adjusted durations, in hindsight you could bank that Fell Cleave ready for too long.

Fell Cleave

• Potency changed from 12000 to 8000.
• Added "Inner Release potency: 12000"
• Changed "Can only be executed under the effect of 'Inner Release'" to "Can only be executed under the effect of 'Fell Cleave Ready' or 'Inner Release'"

// Basically to let the Storm's Path combo to have purpose to store a use of Fell Cleave, but at a weaker rate.
// This is similar to PLD gaining Sword Oath and GNB gaining Powder Barrel upon completion of the combo.
// If "Inner Release" is active, then "Fell Cleave Ready" won't be consumed.

Primal Scream

• Added the effect "Extends 'Fell Cleave Ready' duration by 15 seconds."

// This is to ensure that you retain your stack of "Fell Cleave Ready" for the 8000 potency Fell Cleave after "Inner Release" ends.

Bloodwhetting

• Removed the additional effect: "Stem the Tide: Creates a barrier around self that absorbs damage totaling 10% of your maximum HP (Duration: 10s)"
• Added the additional effect: "Stem the Flow: Reduces damage taken by {10-15}% (Duration: 5s)"

// The purpose of this change is to provide a similar mitigation effect to other tanks, but at a lesser duration and rate since WAR already has Orogeny granting -10% damage dealt to enemies it hits.
// The value of how much it mitigates especially when paired with the lifesteal effect of Bloodwhetting should be greater than the 10% HP shield, which was capped at 6300 ShieldHP and 7560 HP respectively.
// The values are in {curly brackets} as I am unsure if 15% might be too much, so it is listed as a variable value.

I understand where this is all coming from, but I think the big differences between the tank kits is what makes them great in the 6.1 PvP system. I don't want to see tanks and their play patterns homogenized like they are in PvE.

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Originally Posted by Myrha_Lhlalheva

I understand where this is all coming from, but I think the big differences between the tank kits is what makes them great in the 6.1 PvP system. I don't want to see tanks and their play patterns homogenized like they are in PvE.

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Understandable, which is why I don't necessarily wish to see a lot of changes like these, however the Bloodwhetting change stems mainly from the criticism of WAR being extremely squishy the moment they get CCed, as the lifesteal provides zero protection. Considering you have spend 10% of current HP to use Onslaught and Orogeny and Orogeny having limited range vs for example Horrid Roar (DRG), they live and die by their AOE GCDs and CC landing or not.

As for the Fell Cleave change, I find 123 combos with zero benefit extremely uninspired. Dark Knight technically falls in a similar category regarding Souleater combo, however their access to Bloodspiller is tied to using Shadowbringer rather than a Limit Break.

I am not as much of a fan as homogenization as the next person, but access to a weaker version of Fell Cleave outside of Limit Break seems at very least more interesting than <nothing>.

ADDENDUM (edit): I think with those two changes applied to give WAR a bit more staying power and gameplay flow, all four tanks should still play very different from each other.

Well SMN in particular could sing a whole song about only having ruin when they exhausted their attack pool so I think WAR is fine. The 1-2-3 combos are usually filler anyway to do weave in between the other fancy skills.

I feel like making fell cleave accessible after 1-2-3 would actually take the novelty out of the big damage the skill is usually associated with like it would make it feel less special.
That said, if we got strictly with the Job fantasy, WAR should definitely be in line of Sage as in being a disruptive high DPS disguised as a Tank - think of berserkers deliberately lowering defences in favour of higher damage which I think should stay that way.

If you want a quirky gimmick to the job 1-2-3 (like the PvE version did had a pacification at the end of their berserk mode), you could trigger a mini berserk state after 1-2-3 where you'd only have access to one powerful single target skill like Butcher's Block+HP drain for 3s to really emphasize the Warrior temporarily losing control and go all out while still maintaining some sort of sustain instead of shields. You could also make them immune to stun within berserk mode if that's your concern to get that health back.

Ofc to counterbalance this risky mode, you'd also be given the option to release your anger with something like Overpower in an aoe cone to immediately cancel out the berserk mode in case you don't want to enter it every time you finish your 1-2-3

(totally not an excuse to see Butcher's Block again...)

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Originally Posted by Shikiseki

Well SMN in particular could sing a whole song about only having ruin when they exhausted their attack pool so I think WAR is fine. The 1-2-3 combos are usually filler anyway to do weave in between the other fancy skills.

I feel like making fell cleave accessible after 1-2-3 would actually take the novelty out of the big damage the skill is usually associated with like it would make it feel less special.
That said, if we got strictly with the Job fantasy, WAR should definitely be in line of Sage as in being a disruptive high DPS disguised as a Tank - think of berserkers deliberately lowering defences in favour of higher damage which I think should stay that way.

If you want a quirky gimmick to the job 1-2-3 (like the PvE version did had a pacification at the end of their berserk mode), you could trigger a mini berserk state after 1-2-3 where you'd only have access to one powerful single target skill like Butcher's Block+HP drain for 3s to really emphasize the Warrior temporarily losing control and go all out while still maintaining some sort of sustain instead of shields.

Ofc to counterbalance this risky mode, you'd also be given the option to release your anger with something like Overpower in an aoe cone to immediately cancel out the berserk mode in case you don't want to enter it every time you finish your 1-2-3

(totally not an excuse to see Butcher's Block again...)

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I'm not sure if I'd take Summoner as a great comparison to why having a boring, uninteractive filler is a good reason why Warrior should be the same - yes the numbers speak for themselves, but in terms of gameplay SMN feels sort of lacking to me as the Caster who jumps in for a big damage engagement and use some extra CC while doing so, Red Mage fills that niche more for me in terms of fun.

Short, one job having boring filler isn't a reason why another should, even if the numbers are good.

Ill be honest, Fell Cleave being only accessible during Inner Release is very boring to me. For me the big WOW and novelty of that Limit Break isn't the access to Fell Cleave, it is the double damage of Chaotic Cyclone + Primal Rend as well as the enhanced HP boosting Orogeny's attackpower by up to 20%.

Could the 123-combo bonus be another weaponskill like Butcher's Block or Inner Beast/Chaos instead? Sure it could, but I'm being minimalistic on purpose so a change like that could be reasonably implemented without requiring extra resources (coding more skills into pvp kits rather than changing interaction is factually more codework). If we had an expansion to 16-button pvp again though, different story - I'd be massively on board with that as we'd have more space in kits.

I dunno, WAR has a lot of control compared to other melee jobs. It doesn't have an oGCD stun like PLD, SAM and MNK, but in exchange it gets an AoE one kinda like BRD vs RDM's silence.

Given that it's easier to stick to a target than your average bulky melee, and even keep it in range of your allies, I think increasing its personal sustained damage much more would be unfair.

Their Bloodwhetting should probably be able to shield them through a Primal Scream cast into the Chaotic Cyclone or Primal Rend follow up at least given they don't have the luxury of like, RPR stopping everyone or BLM being able to LB outside of line of sight to stay safe. If you can't survive that short a span against a good team, that could probably use some tuning, especially because you get CC immunity for that time.

I get what they were going for with the 10% hp shield from whetting because Scream gives you more HP, but that's what, 6250 hp shield normally? 7.4k with Thrill? RPR gets an effective 70.5k HP alone if it goes in with Crest up, and it can basically retreat for free. Maybe it could be at least 8k flat like TBN given you can't put it on others. I think it should keep you just living long enough to get your '16k HP x targets hit' GCD heal to get the ball rolling, barring, you know, stepping out and eating 3 preemptive lbs before you can get in yourself.

I'm still phrasing all this in the context of CC, but outside of that I don't think it's reasonable to expect survivability or even sustained damage. The more players on the field, the more valuable Blota and Primal Rend become, after all, and WAR has always held that niche for pvp. DRK only supplants it with the new multi holmgang, but even then you can just Rend in after your co-drk drags, slapping on damage at least if they purify, and immediately breaking their guards if they don't.

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Originally Posted by Post

I dunno, WAR has a lot of control compared to other melee jobs. It doesn't have an oGCD stun like PLD, SAM and MNK, but in exchange it gets an AoE one kinda like BRD vs RDM's silence.

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I mean... does it? PLD theoretically also has the AOE Heavy from the Sheltron bomb albeit unreliable, SAM has stun + bind, MNK has stun + knockback, NIN while having to use resources for it does have easily usable stuns and a more difficult to use Heavy puddle. Reaper sits only on Heavy outside of LB which comes with Hysteria and Bind as options, GNB has theirs behind the LB but that LB rips, 3s AOE stuns and GNB can speedboost with Rough Divide. The only melee without CC is Dragoon, but that job just hits like a train and has Horrid Roar and great mobility options for self peeling.

The main saving grace is honestly Blota regarding sticking enemies close to you.

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Given that it's easier to stick to a target than your average bulky melee, and even keep it in range of your allies, I think increasing its personal sustained damage much more would be unfair.

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Having a quasi 4th combostep being 8000 dmg Fell Cleave still means you have to do a full 123 combo first and is hardly a massive gain compared to what other jobs can dish out as sustained damage - just using tanks as an example, they got a whole cartridge combo going for them on top of generating Powder Barrel from 123 and Draw & Junction + Continuation on all of that. Paladin has their Atonements readily available via Intervene and Shield Bash. Dark Knight literally doesnt even care about 123 considering SHB -> Bloodspiller is readily available, so that extra HP from completing 123 is basically SHB resource - if they even stay in for a combo.

Sorry, I don't think the damage gain from having this would be that massive given what other jobs have and how flexibly they have it on top.

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Their Bloodwhetting should probably be able to shield them through a Primal Scream cast into the Chaotic Cyclone or Primal Rend follow up at least given they don't have the luxury of like, RPR stopping everyone or BLM being able to LB outside of line of sight to stay safe. If you can't survive that short a span against a good team, that could probably use some tuning, especially because you get CC immunity for that time.

I get what they were going for with the 10% hp shield from whetting because Scream gives you more HP, but that's what, 6250 hp shield normally? 7.4k with Thrill? RPR gets an effective 70.5k HP alone if it goes in with Crest up, and it can basically retreat for free. Maybe it could be at least 8k flat like TBN given you can't put it on others. I think it should keep you just living long enough to get your '16k HP x targets hit' GCD heal to get the ball rolling, barring, you know, stepping out and eating 3 preemptive lbs before you can get in yourself.

I'm still phrasing all this in the context of CC, but outside of that I don't think it's reasonable to expect survivability or even sustained damage. The more players on the field, the more valuable Blota and Primal Rend become, after all, and WAR has always held that niche for pvp. DRK only supplants it with the new multi holmgang, but even then you can just Rend in after your co-drk drags, slapping on damage at least if they purify, and immediately breaking their guards if they don't.

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Bloodwhetting also comes with the hefty price tag of having part of your burst tied to it, so for what little mitigation it provides right now feels sorta meh. The 6300/7560 HP shield is honestly a joke compared to what other melees bring to the table for that (except NIN as theirs actually costs them damage resources).

As I said, the lifesteal is great, but that is what it is - lifesteal. It can be countered to absolute shit with a MCH turret providing 6000 shield to people inside it on a damage pulse, SGE can provide Pneuma shields and any form of self shielding or mitigation cripples this so much more.

Also I am purely talking in the context of CC - as much as I'd try, I cannot reasonably give suggestions how to balance for CC & FL/RW at the same time, which is why I don't.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

Understandable, which is why I don't necessarily wish to see a lot of changes like these, however the Bloodwhetting change stems mainly from the criticism of WAR being extremely squishy the moment they get CCed, as the lifesteal provides zero protection. Considering you have spend 10% of current HP to use Onslaught and Orogeny and Orogeny having limited range vs for example Horrid Roar (DRG), they live and die by their AOE GCDs and CC landing or not.

As for the Fell Cleave change, I find 123 combos with zero benefit extremely uninspired. Dark Knight technically falls in a similar category regarding Souleater combo, however their access to Bloodspiller is tied to using Shadowbringer rather than a Limit Break.

I am not as much of a fan as homogenization as the next person, but access to a weaker version of Fell Cleave outside of Limit Break seems at very least more interesting than <nothing>.

ADDENDUM (edit): I think with those two changes applied to give WAR a bit more staying power and gameplay flow, all four tanks should still play very different from each other.

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Some melees also don't have % mitigation. I'd rather see them double down on WAR's identity, maybe increasing the life steal, maybe adding more life steal, idk. Or combine it with bloodwhetting like in pve as well..

I also think that the CC immunity during LB plays very well with a lifesteal type of mitigation. Out of it, I don't mind the fell cleave finisher on the combo yeh.

If that's your angle, basically none of the jobs get their big damage from sustaining combos other than like, MNK cuz of Phantom Rush and PLD cuz of its staying power.

I totally get the moment to moment gameplay of 123 not feeling satisfying, but isn't that because it's specifically filler? It's more of a novelty for jobs that DO get something out of it, frankly. WAR is not the odd man out in that regard. Just downtime till you set up your next big Rend play.

Besides, you'd lose a little sustain with an extra GCD in your combo before the next storms path, too. Maybe it could just shave like 3 seconds off of Onslaught or something? It's more damage, and more mobility, and it'd help set up hard swaps more easily, which is already pretty well into WAR's wheelhouse imo. Though that perk feels like it'd make more sense for GNB given how important Rough Divide is for them.

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Originally Posted by Valence

Some melees also don't have % mitigation. I'd rather see them double down on WAR's identity, maybe increasing the life steal, maybe adding more life steal, idk. Or combine it with bloodwhetting like in pve as well..

I also think that the CC immunity during LB plays very well with a lifesteal type of mitigation. Out of it, I don't mind the fell cleave finisher on the combo yeh.

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Yeah I guess having something other than the mitigation % could work too, though honestly for reasons I mentioned throughout, Im not a fan on enhancing the lifesteal given how it might either spiral way harder or be borderline useless if enemies deploy HP shields. A bigger Stem the Tide could work.

...or Miracle of Nature not piercing every CC immunity known to man.

%mit would break the lifesteal, thats why they have a flat shield. Primal Rend is also one of the strongest and most consistent sources of control in the game. Instant cast aoe targeted stun every 20s is insane. Blota can also be tick timed to cancel backflips.

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Originally Posted by Post

If that's your angle, basically none of the jobs get their big damage from sustaining combos other than like, MNK cuz of Phantom Rush and PLD cuz of its staying power.

I totally get the moment to moment gameplay of 123 not feeling satisfying, but isn't that because it's specifically filler? It's more of a novelty for jobs that DO get something out of it, frankly. WAR is not the odd man out in that regard. Just downtime till you set up your next big Rend play.

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I think there is a misunderstanding. For one my main gripe isn't filler not building additional damage skills in a vacuum, it is when a mix of the following occurs:

• Downtime between cannot be reasonably filled with other combative actions
• The effective burst / combat time is quite short vs the filler time
• The filler / 123 combo having zero synergy or kit interaction

Sure might be a tad picky, but this is just explaining where I come from with my hate for the Storm's Path combo (and others as you soon read). Filler doesn't need to be boring and non-interactive to be filler.

As for your comment for how it is a novelty... not quite. Here is a list I put together. O marks what type of filler I find quite alright, ? where I have mixed feelings but can live with it, X is where I have criticism in terms of gameplay flow (NOT HOW THE JOB PERFORMS):

• [ O ] PLD: Combo grants Atonement, also available with short CD Intervene and mid CD Shield Bash. Part of your downtime can also be filled with Guardian -> Guard utility.
• [ X ] WAR: Combo is barren, your burst sits in an awkward position of Primal Rend at 15s as GCD, Orogeny as 20s as oGCD and Chaotic Cyclone stuck behind Bloodwhetting. The height of your downtime is reapplying Onslaught.
• [ O ] DRK: Soul Eater Combo is barren, however excess HP from Soul Eater, Quietus and Salted Earth can be spent at will on Shadowbringer -> Bloodspiller rather than waiting on damage cooldowns to return
• [ O ] GNB: Combo grants Burst Strike + Continuation + it has the full Gnashing Fang combo + Continuation combo for filler before Double Down bursts
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• [ O/? ] DRG: Wheeling Thrust Combo is barren, however off-burst Heaven's Thrust from short CD High Jump is available as well as Chaotic Spring on various times if you choose to do so
• [ ? ] RPR: Combo is barren, at most you use the finisher for a "very" sad 3-gcd Death Warrant if you mess up along the way. Not a fan of this one but I suppose your signature Voidsent form makes up for it with being frequently up.
• [ O ] MNK: Combo builds Phantom Rush as you said, but also extends Riddle of Wind GCD speed boost, has natively low GCD timer of 2.00s and Snap Punch + Demolish hit harder than "finishers".
• [ O ] SAM: Entire combo can be transformed into AOE variants with a Bind, double damage or lifesteal attached to them, at your own leisure.
• [ O ] NIN: Combo is barren, but a combo finisher under Bunshin can reach higher damage than Fuma Shuriken. Also Fuma Shuriken recharges fast and the more likely filler.
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• [ ? ] BRD: Powerful Shot is not "wow", but it does reduce the recharge time on Empyreal Arrows, so there is "some" interactivity.
• [ ? ] MCH: Blast Charge is... "something". It builds to Overheated, but honestly that one feels terrible for how long you have to build it.
• [ O ] DNC: Combo is relatively basic, but at least interacts with En Avant to build up to Saber Dance.
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• [ O ] BLM: Building to Flare / Freeze and debuff stacks is literally a core mechanic in this job that you do regardless if bursting or filler.
• [ X ] SMN: This one... is Ruin III if you spent all your Favour skills (Crimson Cyclone, Slipstream, Mountain Buster) and Festers. As mentioned before, I do not think this is something to use as a good template.
• [ O ] RDM: Filler time is minimal with 2-4 GCDs at most before next melee combo and / or Resolution is available. Also dualcast, so there is some job mechanic.

Not going into Healers, they have a whole different game going on with their general team utility.

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Besides, you'd lose a little sustain with an extra GCD in your combo before the next storms path, too. Maybe it could just shave like 3 seconds off of Onslaught or something? It's more damage, and more mobility, and it'd help set up hard swaps more easily, which is already pretty well into WAR's wheelhouse imo. Though that perk feels like it'd make more sense for GNB given how important Rough Divide is for them.

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You'd gain the sustain again for replacing a Heavy Swing and / or Maim in your Bloodwhetting window with an 8000 dmg Fell Cleave. The Onslaught idea I'd be on board, if it wasnt for essentially costing yourself more HP over time, which is costly outside of the Bloodwhetting Window, which is also your burst window (if you use Chaotic Cyclone in your burst). The hardswap thing is true though, it would turn out less predictable.

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Originally Posted by Myrha_Lhlalheva

%mit would break the lifesteal, thats why they have a flat shield. Primal Rend is also one of the strongest and most consistent sources of control in the game. Instant cast aoe targeted stun every 20s is insane. Blota can also be tick timed to cancel backflips.

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Fair point on the % mit thing, hence I didn't want to put a long duration let alone high % on it so it is somewhat sameish to the HP shield in terms of effective HP.

And yeah, Primal Rend is strong - which is why I am not suggesting any power improvement in what WAR is already good in, but rather making that downtime less miserable. Mayhap the duration for FC ready could be shortened so you can't hold it forever until your next burst, like 6-10s at max. I don't think having an 8000 dmg single target skill that you had to build for with your Storm's Path combo is going to break WAR's bank on damage.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

[*][ ? ] MCH: Blast Charge is... "something". It builds to Overheated, but honestly that one feels terrible for how long you have to build it.

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I more or less agree with the list, but as a MCH main I can't say I find it terrible. What feels terrible is losing the stacks, sure (I wouldn't mind an additional effect on analysis that resets the heat stack timer). The thing is that you usually need the 5 hits else all your tools are never ready and especially not WF, so you overheat for nothing. This was a huge problem of the job at 6.1 release when WF was on a higher recast (25s), as WF was always a little late when you had full uptime and it was awkward af. Overheating into the void or just having to slow down damage...

If you drop the amount of hits required to overheat, then the job becomes borderline OP, and would also need a reduced WF recast once more because otherwise it's literally no gain.

I like this mechanic, especially since the burst is powerful (but only with Spite on top of it unfortunately). But I'd agree that it doesn't happen enough in comparison to jobs like RDM/DRG.

I don't like machinist blast mechanic for pvp honestly, the stack timer is fairly short and it's a dead skill when facing with a melee job in your face, noone is gonna use a skill that does bleh damage and slows you down, it's a dead skill whenever a melee jumps you essentially plus it really is only used when you don't have something available from the drill combo pool.

At least bard's crappy basic shot changing to something actually good due to other skills and it hastens your stacking of empyrial.

As for warrior, I rather would see the hp loss on their skills removed first and then see what can be adjusted after that tbh.
And make mon be able to be purged which is the biggest problem with not being to lifesteal honestly, I don't mind dancer or reaper lb preventing me from using the aoe heal, those are lb's and it's fine they prevent it, but a basic skill, hell no.

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Originally Posted by Valence

I more or less agree with the list, but as a MCH main I can't say I find it terrible. What feels terrible is losing the stacks, sure (I wouldn't mind an additional effect on analysis that resets the heat stack timer). The thing is that you usually need the 5 hits else all your tools are never ready and especially not WF, so you overheat for nothing. This was a huge problem of the job at 6.1 release when WF was on a higher recast (25s), as WF was always a little late when you had full uptime and it was awkward af. Overheating into the void or just having to slow down damage...

If you drop the amount of hits required to overheat, then the job becomes borderline OP, and would also need a reduced WF recast once more because otherwise it's literally no gain.

I like this mechanic, especially since the burst is powerful (but only with Spite on top of it unfortunately). But I'd agree that it doesn't happen enough in comparison to jobs like RDM/DRG.

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Yeah I know. That's why I honestly labelled it with a questionmark, I felt not sure on that so only gave my.personal gut feeling rather than being technical about it.

Maybe they could attempt Overheat at 4 stacks rather than 5 but honestly wouldnt touch it.

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Originally Posted by Llynethil

I don't like machinist blast mechanic for pvp honestly, the stack timer is fairly short and it's a dead skill when facing with a melee job in your face, noone is gonna use a skill that does bleh damage and slows you down, it's a dead skill whenever a melee jumps you essentially plus it really is only used when you don't have something available from the drill combo pool.

At least bard's crappy basic shot changing to something actually good due to other skills and it hastens your stacking of empyrial.

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It's the problem of most ranged DPS (bar DNC and RDM). They get hard countered by half the job roster. The blast mechanic is not inherently a problem with MCH alone. You have a lot of CC options to help you out, but any ranged DPS in particular MCH, BRD, BLM and SMN are in the same kind of bag as far as I'm concerned (BLM can teleport at least...).

I like this idea. It's a nice catch since most WAR just hang out waiting for their CC chain to come off cooldown outside of the LB window.

The thing about ranged DPS is they have all the annoying hinderance debuffs which can be used to retreat from most situations. The problem is people use them offensively one hundred percent of the time instead of saving them and gauging use for offense or utility. Nearly every time I have died to the blast effect on BRD or MCH it was my fault for missing a position or overreaching thinking my team was down to push. I think DNC's En Avant should be changed to not cancel sprint though.

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Originally Posted by Elfidan

The thing about ranged DPS is they have all the annoying hinderance debuffs which can be used to retreat from most situations. The problem is people use them offensively one hundred percent of the time instead of saving them and gauging use for offense or utility.

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Except for Repelling Shot on BRD that can be kept for self (unless you're really adventurous and like jumping into the fray to use it offensively on burst targets ofc), it's literally griefing not to use them to secure kills (including Wanderer's to defend allies). They're not here to defend yourself, even though they'll help in a pinch, and tbh they do a mediocre job at it because attackers can shrug one off with purify, and gap close back at your throat. If you have a second one to burn, it helps you tremendously, but that's not a given (aka being on Primed Bioblaster on MCH conveniently when attacked, then Primed Anchor, or just BLM sleep into freeze, but it takes time to set up, time you're not sprinting away).

The fact of the matter is simple, all those ranged jobs have very little defensive capability whatsoever (bonus point for SMN's on demand shield though), which is why they crumble to death when jumped by melees or red mages. Some people will tell you to use the turret to defend yourself, and that's not dumb if you have actual allies next to you to help you because otherwise you'll still gonna get trashed hard by forsaking the only thing that will help you on a normal basis, which is to pop sprint and play cat and mouse.

Speaking of RDM actually, this is the only ranged DPS job that's squishy that I never felt threatened with at all. It has incredible mobility with gap closers (jump to another enemy to get out of a bad spot), and insanely long back jump (zoom out of a bad spot), and you have 2 charges of both to boot. On top of it the job is designed to duel a little (like SAM), and will output a really threatening amount of damage to any attacker. On top of it you have an AoE bind/silence as well to get out of trouble.

In any case you're right, you use CC for other things that retreating, which means they'll not always be available.

I've been playing more and more jobs recently with the actual intent to learn them, and since I guess I was mostly maining ranged like MCH/BLM, I can see how much night and day it actually is, and why all the meta jobs are NOT ranged DPS (except RDM). SMN gets a pass because of the untelegraphed AoE LB that just crushes teams and turns table all the time but that's its saving grace.

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Originally Posted by Elfidan

Nearly every time I have died to the blast effect on BRD or MCH it was my fault for missing a position or overreaching thinking my team was down to push. I think DNC's En Avant should be changed to not cancel sprint though.

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Being punished because you're casting a blast instead of moving is a thing. Being punished because you're casting it and therefore cannot guard when you could have otherwise, is a drawback of the mechanic, but I'm fine with it. It's part of its identity.

My problem isn't the casts, my problem is the lopsided relationship most ranged DPS have with the rest of the job roster and hos it works against the "role agnostic" advertisement of the new pvp. It can be very miserable if good players decide to rush you down. One can argue that you can bait them into doing it, but that's not good players then. Most of them just lurk around and wait for engagements, putting you into a neverending awkward spot:
- If you stay close to your team just behind them, you get harassed by frontline melees like tanks, AND their ranged because you're a juicy target, and essentially turn into a melee yourself without their stronger defensives, which gives you 5s of survability before you have to retreat and lose all uptime (and get mowed down by an ambushing melee down the line btw).
- If you take some distance, you immediately get murdered by a melee DPS/RDM that was waiting for that precise moment.

Like, I'm not saying it's unworkable, or that it's so binary, but sometimes it DO feel that way.

If anything, have you seen a game full of ranged DPS (and maybe a healer) vs a team with 2-3 melees? It's rarely pretty.

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Originally Posted by Valence

It's the problem of most ranged DPS (bar DNC and RDM). They get hard countered by half the job roster. The blast mechanic is not inherently a problem with MCH alone. You have a lot of CC options to help you out, but any ranged DPS in particular MCH, BRD, BLM and SMN are in the same kind of bag as far as I'm concerned (BLM can teleport at least...).

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I wonder if for example if you wildfire something, you automatically go into blastspam mode no matter what for 3 shots would be too strong or not, would be a cool interaction to actually get it activated without the slow stacking while giving you some mobility back to kite backwards if your drill combo's are on cd.

Yeah, I think that's on purpose Valence. People have to close range with you to do damage to you while you're hitting them the whole time. If you had defensives similar to melee who have to be in melee range to do damage (except NIN KEKW) you would be much harder to kill than a melee. It's also why the hp totals have been adjusted repeatedly. It's not perfect but there is at least reason for it and they have been adjusting it since 6.1 dropped. The turret shield on MCH is actually pretty good because it threatens people who are harassing you if they dare stay in melee. BRD has a pre-emptive CC removal which is cool but maybe not as big of a thing by comparison. I do feel like shots should be interruptible like other casts except just by use of other skills. If your low enough to be in critical would it really help though? Guard takes like 5 seconds to actually work after all. The idea is if you weren't slowed you could almost indefinitely keep a melee at ranged parody which would be pretty awful. Yeah, the "Role Agnostic" tag is a load of crap. Anyone who says otherwise is huffing copium or just doesn't actually play the mode. It really depends on play styles but generally the problem with all ranged games is that they can't really deal with being CC locked as well as any of the melee. Not that anyone does well with 8-10 seconds of loss of player autonomy but when your hp is so much lower that's a real problem when anyone can die in 2 seconds.

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Originally Posted by Elfidan

Yeah, the "Role Agnostic" tag is a load of crap. Anyone who says otherwise is huffing copium or just doesn't actually play the mode.

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Uuuhhhhhh... when people refer to role agnostic as a term, it is usually in reference to the queueing system not enforcing roles (like forced 1x tank 1x healer etc.) and overarching job design.

This refers to how for example despite being "healers" their role in combat differs wildly from being heal and support oriented (AST) to providing primarily damage pressure while chucking out utility shields (SGE) to basically be a buffer/debuffer support (SCH). However, the majority of healing is done by players individually, making a lack of healers not an automatic loss.

Same with tanks, PLD is the stereotypical pvp tank, WAR is the squishier CC based tank, DRK is actually a bruiser-type DPS focuaing on survival and damage and GNB being similar with three sub roles to choose from.

Amongst melee, Samurai and Monk qualify as bruiser type DPS but also have tank capabilities akin to PLD and WAR respectively given their mitigation / support options (Thunderclap can shield allies) where as DRG RPR and NIN are more traditional melee dps.

Similar points can be made for DNC and RDM being found more in melee combat despite their main roles where as BRD and BLM are more traditional.
"That" is what role agnostic usually refers to.

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Originally Posted by Llynethil

I wonder if for example if you wildfire something, you automatically go into blastspam mode no matter what for 3 shots would be too strong or not, would be a cool interaction to actually get it activated without the slow stacking while giving you some mobility back to kite backwards if your drill combo's are on cd.

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Other than the fact that having to build up that burst being part of the class identity, and turning it into a normal on demand burst like other jobs feels like we're losing something already, there is also the problem that current overheat is actually malleable enough to be used in different combinations with WF. In fact, you rarely use 3 heat blasts under WF since it will detonate it and you want the last hit to be something that hits hard in order to get an actual alpha burst out of it.

And then there is also adjustments that can come from the actual context, perhaps you're being stunned in the middle of it (happens all the time) and you need to adjust the burst sequence on the fly. Or maybe you're trying to pop it faster and you need to skip the last hit so you don't use the last heat blast in favor of scattergun to detonate immediately. Or perhaps you're trying to pull a full normal burst + LB immediately on top, but similarly you need to cut it short by one GCD to get it out faster and rely on the LB as the finishing hit instead.

That would kinda defeat that flexibility, but maybe it's a trade off that could work. Not sure I like how it would dumb down the job though, but maybe it's too complicated in comparison to many others.

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Originally Posted by Elfidan

Yeah, I think that's on purpose Valence.

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Of course it's on purpose. I'm merely pointing out that the two biggest roles in the game are ranged DPS and the rest. This is also why they seem to be conscious of it and have their matchmaking try to even the spread between both teams, even though at times it fails spectacularly.

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Originally Posted by Elfidan

People have to close range with you to do damage to you while you're hitting them the whole time. If you had defensives similar to melee who have to be in melee range to do damage (except NIN KEKW) you would be much harder to kill than a melee. It's also why the hp totals have been adjusted repeatedly. It's not perfect but there is at least reason for it and they have been adjusting it since 6.1 dropped.

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I agree on paper. In practice, it's skewed toward melees (and healers but those are another story in different facets of the game mode, which can make a general 3rd role on its own). The problem is not the range of melees, they have so many tools to get around it that it's basically a non issue. The crux of the matter is that melees have to take the brunt of everybody hitting them when they're fighting in the frontlines so naturally they need more survivability until they need to bail. That on its own, works more or less properly and they have to bail more often than ranged have to actually (unless the game is lopsided).

But that's only one case scenario, the other being the one I exposed above. The highest you get in ranks, especially past diamond and in crystal, melee DPS players are good enough to throw this paradigm upside down and their job overall value can be crushing, because they are good enough to work around melee limitations. Ranged players barely have that option, they're too immobile for this. If melees have decided that they want you dead, you're dead most of the time. This is what's lopsided.

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Originally Posted by Elfidan

The turret shield on MCH is actually pretty good because it threatens people who are harassing you if they dare stay in melee.

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Nobody said it's bad. I actually use it when I'm counting on my team mates to help, and it helps.

But believe me when I tell you that it won't save you from melees or RDMs that have it in for you, especially if there is more than one. You'll get deleted under 10s all the same, especially if you have to move and the turret prevents you to.

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Originally Posted by Elfidan

The idea is if you weren't slowed you could almost indefinitely keep a melee at ranged parody which would be pretty awful.

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Not really. If you shoot, you're not sprinting, and thus they catch up to you. If you're sprinting anyway, they gap close to you, and can re-sprint. One of the things that also slow you down is the need to recuperate to prevent you from straight up dying, which cuts off your sprint as well, which is a double edged sword.

But yes I do believe that it would probably be tedious for melees, but you know what actually? That's a hot take but I don't care. Either that or raise our HP pools. We still don't have defensives anyway. Would also reduce the oneshot garbage from MNKs and whatnot.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

Uuuhhhhhh... when people refer to role agnostic as a term, it is usually in reference to the queueing system not enforcing roles (like forced 1x tank 1x healer etc.) and overarching job design.

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Yes, thank you for the basic info reply. When I say that people say it is role agnostic and that they are out of touch I mean to say that random teams are not in fact fair, and the balancing is being done based on win rates which mean nothing thanks to the fact that everything is random. If doing the same thing ad nauseum and expecting different results is insanity. Then doing random things and expecting useful data must be its little brother madness.

Not having a healer does not mean an instant loss but often you need to play much harder and work together better to beat a team with a healer or twelve forbid a tank and healer. It's a simple matter of comparing the amount of support they afford to dps they provide. While they aren't pure dps levels they definitely are not balanced reasonably for the random state of play in which we exist. If you really believe healers don't put up a majority of the healing in a fight you play with bad healers. https://i.imgur.com/SRMNYUT.png Keep in mind I am not a "Good" pvp healer and mostly default to dps degenerate. Even so it's not uncommon for me to be brushing up against 2 million healing in ranked and easily topmost of all of my teams heals while still doling out tons of damage. If I can do that why in the world would you think healers don't do the majority of the healing?

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Originally Posted by Valence

I agree on paper. In practice, it's skewed toward melees (and healers but those are another story in different facets of the game mode, which can make a general 3rd role on its own). The problem is not the range of melees, they have so many tools to get around it that it's basically a non issue. The crux of the matter is that melees have to take the brunt of everybody hitting them when they're fighting in the frontlines so naturally they need more survivability until they need to bail. That on its own, works more or less properly and they have to bail more often than ranged have to actually (unless the game is lopsided).

But that's only one case scenario, the other being the one I exposed above. The highest you get in ranks, especially past diamond and in crystal, melee DPS players are good enough to throw this paradigm upside down and their job overall value can be crushing, because they are good enough to work around melee limitations. Ranged players barely have that option, they're too immobile for this. If melees have decided that they want you dead, you're dead most of the time. This is what's lopsided.

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Agree to disagree. There seems to be some gameplay variance here because a lot of this is not the case in my experience. You can literally kite a melee all damn day unless you already wasted everything and have found yourself out of position. If they dive the backline to kill you and your team let's that go it isn't you or the job, it's the team that failed there.

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Originally Posted by Valence

Nobody said it's bad. I actually use it when I'm counting on my team mates to help, and it helps.

But believe me when I tell you that it won't save you from melees or RDMs that have it in for you, especially if there is more than one. You'll get deleted under 10s all the same, especially if you have to move and the turret prevents you to.

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RDM is basically a joke at this point. 10 seconds? That's soooooo long. If you don't die for 10 whole seconds that's really good. Are you dueling them? I applaud dynamic use of the turret but its duration isn't that long you shouldn't need to worry about sticking in place excessively usually just long enough to bait one tick of damage up. If you can't get them killed or run off with that it's just a wash and you should run back to your team.

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Originally Posted by Valence

Not really. If you shoot, you're not sprinting, and thus they catch up to you. If you're sprinting anyway, they gap close to you, and can re-sprint. One of the things that also slow you down is the need to recuperate to prevent you from straight up dying, which cuts off your sprint as well, which is a double edged sword.

But yes I do believe that it would probably be tedious for melees, but you know what actually? That's a hot take but I don't care. Either that or raise our HP pools. We still don't have defensives anyway. Would also reduce the oneshot garbage from MNKs and whatnot.

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MNK one shot doesn't happen these days. They have to do all sorts of janky things which you can derail during the set up now. It's not like it was when they could just kill you with enlightened Meteodive. It's so rare now to die from actual MNK damage during LB and not someone else jumping in with them during the stunlock.

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Originally Posted by Elfidan

Agree to disagree. There seems to be some gameplay variance here because a lot of this is not the case in my experience. You can literally kite a melee all damn day unless you already wasted everything and have found yourself out of position. If they dive the backline to kill you and your team let's that go it isn't you or the job, it's the team that failed there.

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Again I agree on paper, but that reasoning is far too binary. Being jumped by melees when you're out of resources doesn't mean all the time that you got out of position, sometimes you'll just get jumped when retreating normally. Now then you'll give me the argument that the team isn't helping and I'd agree, but again, sometimes they just can't because they have their own plates to deal with. Or sometimes some of them try, but you still get murdered because you're so fucking squishy and they're so fucking tanky that they can waltz in, finish you off, and waltz out.

That's not something I have noticed in plat/diam, it's very specific to crystal and top players. Maybe a skill issue though? Sure, possibly, but I suspect those guys would be playing ranged DPS as well and yet, they don't.

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Originally Posted by Elfidan

RDM is basically a joke at this point. 10 seconds? That's soooooo long. If you don't die for 10 whole seconds that's really good. Are you dueling them? I applaud dynamic use of the turret but its duration isn't that long you shouldn't need to worry about sticking in place excessively usually just long enough to bait one tick of damage up. If you can't get them killed or run off with that it's just a wash and you should run back to your team.

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RDM is all but a joke when you play ranged DPS. It literally murders you in less time that you can count if they're not playing like monkeys. Their combo never drops and they can just wait your guard out and continue as if nothing happened. They have 2 charges to continue harassing you if you manage to get away, and their finisher has great range. If it doesn't kill you then that's great, but they still managed to put you out of the fight for ages. They are squishy but they can generally get away with anything but the most vicious sequences of bursts and chases from allies since they have insane tools for mobility.

Really good RDMs also just do even better than what melees DPS do at high level. They wait to see which squishy runs out of resources, jump you even when you're already safe and retreated, and then they are faced with two choices: bail if it stinks for them to commit, or just murder you. If you go back to your team, you're out of resources and expose yourself, which is a basic fault of positioning. This is why I'm annoyed by the fact that against really good players, there is literally nowhere safe for you to retreat. And you have to retreat, else you die, like every job on the game. But unlike every other job, you don't have the tools to sustain that kind of harassment well.

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Originally Posted by Elfidan

MNK one shot doesn't happen these days. They have to do all sorts of janky things which you can derail during the set up now. It's not like it was when they could just kill you with enlightened Meteodive. It's so rare now to die from actual MNK damage during LB and not someone else jumping in with them during the stunlock.

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It happens less, but it's not exactly rocket science to prime your phantom rush for after the big burst Meteodrive combo, use SSS to stun the target before they can emergency recuperate, and finish you off. And if it's not them, it's one of their allies. Guard won't save you or buy you time. It's still nasty, but don't get me wrong, I'll take the nerf to enlightenment because yes, it definitely helps.

The only thing I would add is that I don't think it's a skill issue. I think it's more about data center play styles. I haven't played on EU but now and then I'll go doodle around on Aether and it's super different to me the way people choose to do certain things. If you ever get the chance to come over to Primal and your ping isn't high double or triple digits I think you'll notice what I mean.

Possibly. I'd be interested to see how it goes elsewhere, even though I'm not gonna go back to NA with that 200ms latency.

Doesn't remove the question though, how do Aether players play so differently that it suddenly allows them to counter that problem? I'll definitely admit that a part of this is me whining about it because I'm frankly getting tired of it at the highest level, but I still do believe it holds a part of truth somewhere. If anything, ranged teams will get crushed by melee teams because that matchup is an uphill battle on almost all fronts.

I believe I hijacked that thread enough as it is actually... My apologies.

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Originally Posted by Valence

On top of it the job is designed to duel a little (like SAM), and will output a really threatening amount of damage to any attacker. On top of it you have an AoE bind/silence as well to get out of trouble.

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Don't forget that your melee combo in white shift puts up a pretty strong barrier on every part of the combo with a selfheal finisher while still doing impressive amounts of damage and having a very low cooldown.

Although I haven't played the job in pvp since probably 6.2 so it might be entirely different now, I never felt like I would be absolutely outclassed in a 1v1.

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Originally Posted by Valence

I believe I hijacked that thread enough as it is actually... My apologies.

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Nah it's okay for me, dw.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

Don't forget that your melee combo in white shift puts up a pretty strong barrier on every part of the combo with a selfheal finisher while still doing impressive amounts of damage and having a very low cooldown.

Although I haven't played the job in pvp since probably 6.2 so it might be entirely different now, I never felt like I would be absolutely outclassed in a 1v1.

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It's cool on paper but I haven't had much success with it when getting pressured/burst. Job still too flimsy to attempt this in my opinion. Problem is as a ranged when you're targeted for burst and put under extreme threat you just want to get away as fast as possible, not spend time doing a melee combo in a losing battle against waves of damage and potentially eating a lot of CC (even with purify up, you lose an insane time purifying).

But it's also possible that other players have had better luck and smart uses of white shift melee, maybe as a heal on allies idk. It's what's nice in pvp, people can use most jobs very differently from each other.

sounds terrible