Minor Idea: White Mage eddition

Old version:

You guys are going to say no to this, too, but here's testing an idea...anyway, the change:

1) Make Holy work like Cure 3. For those who don't know, Cure 3 can be cast on a target, and centers its effect around them OR it can be cast with no target or the WHM targeted, and will center the effect around the WHM. It works this way in both PvP and PvE. If Holy worked this way, it could be employed EXACTLY as it is now by the WHM player targeting themselves or any friendly party member (Holy would NOT be usable on party members), either case centering it on the WHM. If targeting an enemy, the Holy effect would be centered on their location instead.

2) Add EITHER ONE of the following:

2a) Thundercloud-like Proc to Dia - Dia ticks have a chance of procing Improved Holy. Doing so boosts the power of the next Holy cast 3x and makes it instant cast. Casting Holy removes the buff. Buff cannot stack, new procs overwrite (extend the duration) of an existing version of the proc on the WHM (in other words, you can't stack them; just like Thundercloud), OR,

2b) Casting Glare builds up 3 charges. On the third charge, the WHM is granted Improved Holy, which works just like above - instant cast 3x damage Holy.

[Note in both cases: 3x Holy = 450 Potency, a 140 gain over Glare III's 310]

OPTIONAL:

3) Holy generates 1/2 charge of Blood Lily per cast. This means in 4 man dungeons, when spamming Holy, every 6th Holy would allow a use of Misery. Just something to change up the rotation. [Could be a full charge, but that MIGHT be OP in other situations, not sure, would have to think of it some more. Note this is just kind of a side idea - hence the all caps "OPTIONAL" - and can be viewed as distinct from the other two. I suppose we could throw it in with the other two, where 2 Holy + 2 Afflatus = 1 Misery, but...meh, I wasn't thinking that myself at the time. Could have Improved Holy NOT generate this effect as well, if we didn't want that happening in single-target fights.]

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What do these changes do?

Without adding to button bloat or new abilities, the first change makes WHM's AOE damage kit more flexible and allows Holy to slot into its single target rotation more effectively (the WHM wouldn't have to scoot their happy buns into melee range to use the Holy or delay their rotation during periods where they can't close to melee range) but also allow players to use Holy exactly as they do today in cases that they wished to do so.

The second change makes WHM's kit more dynamic/less Glarespamy. The first is more dynamic and random, which some people might like more but could cause issues with RNG and annoyed parsers (e.g. the person that gets tons of Dia procs over a fight/in burst windows vs the one who does not), depending on if we care about those people or not. Also, some people hate procs and tracking them/noticing they happened (the game's UI doesn't do a great job of this, but it could maybe do something like have the Job gauge shine super bright on procs to notify the player they've happened or something?)

The second variation is more static, but achieves the same result of making WHM less Glarespamy. A 1 min rotation would be Dia, Glare, Glare, Glare, Holy, Glare, Glare, Afflatus, Glare, Holy, Dia, Glare, Glare, Glare, Afflatus, Holy, Glare, Glare, Glare, Holy, Dia, Afflatus, Misery, ...and so on. On average, you'd be hitting Holy 3-4x per minute. Note that this would place EW (or 7.0) WHM on par in terms of non-Glare GCDs per minute to ARR's WHM non-Stone GCDs per minute. A Holy ever 12 seconds, though nudged to the right by Dia/Afflatus abilities.

The final change is just to spice up the 4 man dungeon AOE rotation. It could also grant some niche optimization in boss fight add phases, though that's probably a higher level topic.

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Now, proceed to hate away and tell me how these changes would somehow dumb down the game (seriously, HOW??) and make things worse, and how current WHM is far more nuanced, high skill ceiling, etc than this lobotomized (HOW??) baby version would be.

I'm prepped for it this time! \o/

New version:

Since then, I've come to this basic overall plan:

1) Holy is a ranged attack like Cure 3, as above. When cast without a target, with the caster targeted, or with a friendly target targeted, the cast will center on the caster. With an enemy targeted, the cast will center on the target enemy.

2) Every cast of Glare generates one stack of "Empowered Glare", lasts for 30 seconds, stacks up to two times; At the third stack, becomes "Empowered Holy", lasts for 30 seconds, and graints the following effect: "The next Holy is instant cast and does 4x normal damage" (a DPS gain on single target over Glare); Empowered Glare can stack with Empowered Holy, but at the third stack will overwrite Empowered Holy.

3) Every non-empowered Holy cast generates one stack of "Holy Retribution", lasts for 30 seconds, stacks up to two times; At the third stack, becomes "Holy Purgation", lasts for 30 seconds, and grants the following effect (like Dark Arts on DRK): "The next Misery cast does not consume the Blood Lily and does not require a full bloom Blood Lily to cast, but only does half damage." (or only does 25% if half is still too powerful); Holy Retribution can stack with Holy Purgation, but at the third stack will overwrite Holy Purgation.

4) Assize is converted into a GCD with a 30 sec CD; potency adjusted to 600 for the first target and 300 (50%) for all other targets. Or something roughly around there; the idea here is to give it potency about equal to Assize normalized from 40 to 30 seconds, plus the foregone Glare cast, so that it's approximately DPS neutral to its PRESENT DAY incarnation (that is, not weaker than what we have now, and thus balanced), but like Plegma gives a GCD to further interrupt the nukespam. Stacks to 2.

OPTIONAL ADDITIONS:

5) Dia can stack to 60 seconds. Refreshing the Dot snapshots at current potency values (so refreshing a Dia in progress when you hit burst buffs is a DPS gain, but then refreshing that one early is a DPS loss).

ALTERNATIVE (dislike this one, personally):

5b) Dia ticks have a chance to make the next Dia cast cost no MP and, instead of applying the damage over time effect, deal the full 770 potency damage as a single hit. ("Diacloud" proc method). I tend to think of WHM as like HydEx; a fight of order and structure. Umbral is order vs Astral being chaotic, so it should be regular. Procs are not regular and are disruptive, chaotic things, thus they belong more with something like BLM.

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This results in a rotation that is not dissimilar to today, but has more variation in the GCD buttons we press. Instead of Dia, Glare for 30 sec, using Solace/Rapture as needed along the way, and Misery 1 time per minute, with Assize weaved on CD; this has 3 Glare then 1 Holy casts as a foundational rotation, Dia refreshed every 30 seconds, Assize used every 30, 60, then twice at 120 seconds, with Solace/Rapture peppered in, and Misery used once per minute.

Note that with the optional Dia change, this means it would be optimal to ride Dia close to but not over 30 seconds into buff windows so you could boost it to near 60 seconds of buffed potency, but then not refresh it until it falls off that time. It would be kind of like old SMN where you got three DoT refreshes with Tri-Disaster per 2 min rotation but did the manual refresh once, giving you a sort of "backbeat" cycle instead of a metronome one. Dia with this method would be cast before burst, cast in burst, don't touch for 1 min, refresh for 30 sec, refresh again (either then for 60 or once half a min later for 30), then refresh once more before going into burst to give you the 60 sec buffed one when you refresh it in burst. While you could just cast 2x Dia in burst, this would cost you a buffed Glare 3, and thus be suboptimal.

Under (5b) instead, the rotation would be less complex, but have more wild variance, feast-or-famine, and one's performance metrics (forbidden website) would be far more dependent on crit chance and "white noise" variance. Thus this is the worse of the two options by quite a stretch.

The AOE rotation for dungeons becomes Dia on targets while running, then once the Tank has positioned them, 3x Holy + 1x Misery, along with any Solace/Rapture use on the tank for healing and an additional Misery once per minute as per the normal Lily cycle. I'm worried a bit about the Misery damage, so that's why the half (620 to the first enemy and 310 to all others) or 25% (310 to all enemies is how it would need to work, though, since half of that is 155, which is a SLIGHT gain over Holy's 150, but I don't know if it would feel particularly good. Still optimal, so I guess that works...)

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Pros of this proposal:

1) No new hotbar bloat.

2) No new ability names/VFX that require additional asset development.

3) More complex rotation, both in the 1-1-1-4 (single target and AOE both do this, but using different buttons), and in the more complex Dia refresh pattern (for either options (5) or (5b)) for optimal damage.

4) It's very intuitive, other than (5)/(5b) options, which are still not terribly unintuitive, either. It retains WHM's easy to pick up and play nature, and while raising the complexity and skill ceiling, the skill floor will be not much higher than at present. Assize's GCD Medica 1/Rapture effect will also help WHM continue to lean into being "the GCD healer", which is the other half of its mechanical identity. So it retains most of what WHM is, plays into what WHM is, while nudging up the skill floor and raising the skill ceiling, but in a way that is still flexible and intuitive.

Again I really really don’t see how changing the (holy) targeting system is an improvement.

Re holycloud procs, I think it would be fine to add a) and b); you don’t single target in aoe much. I think it might necessitate some potency changes, but should break up the spam a bit without using more dots. That said, lifting thundercloud wholesale and sticking it onto aero would also be an option.

Re holy lilies: it’s going to be a free full gauge + 3 stored in any fight with downtime mechanics. You could tie it to hitting a target, but that seems like exactly the kind of thing people would immediately complain about.

For what it's worth, this is easily your least offensive idea put forth. On it's own it's probably fine? Almost certainly not 'enough' for most people, but like, yeah, adding this wouldn't really hurt anything and would make it slightly less boring so why not. Lets do it. Well, 2a or 2b, not big on 3 myself. The dia proc would occasionally allow for some really stupid amounts of damage, esp on pull 2 when you've built up for a misery so maybe the glare boost is the way to go if we don't want to think too hard about potential balance goofiness.

That said you can probably expect the most push back on the holy targeting thing. Having a full 25y cast range when you got the damage boost proc so you can use it in your ST rotation? Yeah sure, go nuts. On the base cast, though? Probably not. Holy being a long cast, centered centered AoE is like... one of the major defining characteristics of WHMs that somehow hasn't changed at all since 2.0. The risk/reward built into it was kind of a big part of WHM's identity. And it's highly likely if we got the option to cast it at range it'd wind up having the stun removed which... would suck.

If we didn’t have the 2 minute thing, a small chance that glare could proc a lily would maybe be interesting. It is pretty hard to tie damage and healing together in a satisfying manner, which is probably why all the historic whm procs have been on the dreadful side. Ideally there’d be some kind of compensation for healing with a damage proc and compensation for damage with a healing proc, but not having everything drift horribly would be a pain.

Maybe something along the lines of GCD heals taking 20s off fluid aura recast (2-3 stacks of FA so there’s no bard issue), and/or regen/medica2 ticks as a sort of inverse thundercloud granting access to stone x. Really not sold on the last one, it’d probably encourage 100% hot uptime which is silly. The other side of this would be the glare 5% lily chance or whatever makes it sufficiently uncommon but not dead certain. Ideally it would be primarily spells to preserve the casting heavy gameplay. Dunno it’s just spitballing really.

Hmm, 2b reminds me of a holy priest talent called Rhapsody

https://i.gyazo.com/4bc50e5dd5200746...39ee441fba.png

Note that Holy Nova's starting power is pretty dog compared to HP's other healing skills, so we will have to make an adjustment, such as:

'Each time you cast Glare or Dia, your next Holy is increased by 40 potency. This stacks up to 5 times.' This would, at max empowerment, make Holy a more conservative 350 compared to Glare's 310. It'd also incentivize 'use your DOT on stuff while the tank's running to the next pack' as you'd be powering up that first Holy. After that though, spamming Holy is still the better damage option, 'single targetting in AOE' would not be optimal.

edit: alternatively, 'Each time your Dia deals damage, your next Holy is increased by X potency, this stacks up to Y times', if they want to tie it to the DOT. They don't exactly have a track record of incentivizing DOTs in recent years though, so it's more likely the former that would be their choice

As for 3, I like the general idea, it again reminds me of Holy Word resets. A gameplay loop of '3 Glares = Holy, 3 Holy's = Misery' doesn't sound bad. But the problem is you'd be using a Misery every X GCDs (if half-misery charges are possible, it'd be every 24, which conveniently is every 1 min, but using lilies to heal would throw it off and people wouldn't like that), plus the extra potency from the Holy. If we had other skills, we could build a more fitting rotation from them (basically replace the payoff with something else instead of Misery) but alas


Edit edit: 'Each time you cast Glare, Dia, or Holy, you gain a stack of 'Nature's Wrath'. At X (let's say 10) stacks, Holy transforms into Afflatus: Purgation.'

Afflatus Purgation:
Instant cast, no MP cost, GCD, lower animation lock than the PVP version since it's not an LB here
Line AOE, same length/width as PVP version
Deals damage in a line in front of you with a potency of 600, and 50% less to all secondary enemies

Numbers adjust as needed, it should feel cool to use without feeling like 'I need to puposely overcap to make sure this lands in raidbuffs'

1. No. I have nothing else to add why exactly, others have spoken well in this front in here and other thread(s).

2a. I like this. With multiple target situation, this can potentially lead to what I imagined would be similar to back in ShB playing BRD in their Mage's Ballad phase: when you have a total of 6 or more DoT ticking at the same time during trash pulls, you're basically weave-spamming Rain of Death like mad between your Quick Nocks, it was fun & highly rewarding.

2b. In my own hopium, I wrote something similar in this vein however unpolished it was. This somewhat alleviate my dislike toward 'dead buttons' that we normally only use strictly in AoE situations.

Both are simple but effective way to break the Glare spam. Whacky potency is normal, but that can be adjusted later on. I don't mind having any of them, or both of them, whatever. Gimme these changes, SE, ty.

3. I'm fifty-fifty for this. Maybe add a proc rate for each target hit instead of having them 100% generation rate? One thing that I liked from this suggestion is player are able to influence their Lily Gauge someway, somehow, instead of just letting the gauge slowly refill on its own.

Honestly, while I had the idea a while back, PLD basically made this with the 6.3 rework/addition of Holy Might. It's just figuring out how to mechanic that into a Glare x3 combo instead of a 1-2-3 combo.

The Holy range thing is needed for the single target thing to really be viable. Much as people like being in melee on a caster (for...some reason), some fights and times in fights don't allow for it, and the goal here is to breakup the Glarespam, not necessarily raise the skill ceiling. (1) kind of needs to be done before (2a)/(2b) can be considered viable.

(3) is mostly "how can we make it where you're not casting only Holy in AOE?" The issue is that it could create some strange/niche optimization uses...but as I recently learned when suggesting a change to Art of War - niche optimization uses are apparently what people here WANT. So if anything, this would provide for that.

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Originally Posted by Icecylee

For what it's worth, this is easily your least offensive idea put forth.

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I honestly do appreciate that. Thank you.

I think the main thing that differentiates this idea from other ideas is that others are more desirous of having more buttons on the bar. So for example, the end result of this idea (that you press a nonGlare button every X Glares) is similar to eg what I've said re: Banish being a 15s CD GCD (thereby making it 'button you press every 6th GCD, or after 5 Glare/Dias). While trying to keep the button count down, it also makes it harder to work with for certain design decisions. For example, the above suggestion I made of Holy building into Purgation. It's still the same button, nothing really changes in AOE in terms of 'how you do the damage as a player'. In fact, due to it being the same button, you may well lose track of your stacks and fire the Purgation while you're positioned in a way that doesn't hit the whole pack. If we were to, for example, have Banish as a separate skill, maybe that could be the skill that upgrades to Purgation for one cast, meaning that in AOE, you'd have an extra button to use instead of just pressing Holy till the cows come home.

In fact, can you do me a favor and reread the old idea for me:

Plenary Indulgence moved to level 74
Afflatus Rapture moved to level 70 (now available in UCOB!)

New skill: Stoneskin (learned at 52 alongside lily gauge), GCD that puts a shield on the target equal to 300p heal, costs 1 lily
New skill: Afflatus Tragedy (learned at 62 just because there's a gap there), basically a downgrade from Misery, does 800p damage (4 stone3's is 880 so its a small loss still), this is just to help new players get into the idea of 'use lilies, get big hit that compensates the lost dps', upgrades to Misery at 76
New skill: Afflatus Bastion (upgrade from Stoneskin at 70), increases the shield from 300 to 400p
New skill: Afflatus Sanctuary (Learned at level 70 alongside Afflatus Rapture), GCD that shields all nearby party members equal to 200p healing, costs 1 lily

By keeping the potencies on the shields low, it lets the 'shield healers' be more specialised at shielding, but still giving WHM options to shield if it absolutely has to

Returning skill: Divine Seal (learned at 40), 2min CD that buffs healing actions by 20%, so 'Temperance without the damage mitigation', becomes Temperance at 80
Returning skill: Protect (learned at 10 or something), 60s CD that gives 5% damage mitigation for 8sec, upgrades to 10% with a trait called Shell at 66, again into Aquaveil at 86

Returned from the dead skill: Fluid Aura (now named Water), now an instant cast GCD with a seperate 15 second recast (affected by spellspeed), scaling damage like Stone, becomes Banish at Glare/Dia levels, does more damage than Stone/Glare equivalent at any given level (say Glare3 is 310, maybe this could be 350?)

Aero/Dia changed to be 12 seconds duration, potency adjusted to balance, to mix up how often we're using Glare vs Dia (and to give the rotation a more 'bursty' feel) edit: 150 + 70per tick would total 430, while still keeping the base damage of the cast low to prevent spamming early application

A new HUD element, the 'Nature Gauge' (name is WIP), a simple 0-100 gauge that fills by doing certain actions. Stone/Glare gives 1 point. Aero/Dia gives 1 point on cast, and 1 per tick (5 total over full duration). Water would give 5 due to being used less often than Stone. Holy is 'Each enemy hit by Holy grants 2 gauge' so bigger pulls = more gauge

New skill: Blessing of the Elementals, AOE GCD heal, instant cast, same AOE size as Medica2, 500p, costs 50 gauge. Grants 'Rage of the River, Ire of the Earth and Wrath of the Winds' upon use (these effects can stack up to twice), each allowing one cast of Flood, Quake and Tornado respectively.

Quake: 410p compared to Glare3's 310p, has 50% damage falloff for AOE
Flood: 450p compared to Banish's 350p, has 50% damage falloff for AOE
Tornado: 180p, plus 90 per tick to main target, compared to reworked-Dia's 150+70, has 50% falloff for both cast and DOT effect for AOE

If I recall, the main concern with this was that people would be forced to do damage to get access to the new gauge skill. So I've been thinking, screw it, if people want to gimp their damage on healing why not let them, it'll help in enrage sequences like Curtain Call anyway, so I'm adding a new section:

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Cure1 evolves into Cure2, Medica evolves into Medica2. Cure 2 generates 5 Nature Gauge on cast. Regen generates 4 Nature Gauge on cast, and 1 Nature Gauge per tick (total 10, only counts one Regen tick, multi-HOTting does not increase rate). Medica 2 generates 0 per player hit, and 3 per tick (total of 15 over full duration). Cure 3 generates 10 Nature Gauge on cast. Additionally, when Medica 2's HOT effect is present on the WHM, the MP cost of Cure 3 is halved (from 1500 to 750), to encourage using it over just spamming Medica 2 over and over (as it'd be changed to 400p, plus 5 ticks of 100p due to combining with Medica 1).

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That should at least fix the 'forced to do damage to access cool new thing' issue, right, and while I'm adding one button for damage, I'm also adding like 5 or 6 that are specifically 'designated for healing, or HPS throughput, or mitigation'

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Originally Posted by Renathras

Much as people like being in melee on a caster (for...some reason), some fights and times in fights don't allow for it, and the goal here is to breakup the Glarespam, not necessarily raise the skill ceiling. (1) kind of needs to be done before (2a)/(2b) can be considered viable.

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Melee range is not that dangerous. Seriously. The actual melee DPS jobs hang out in melee range all the time and don't need baby sitting from the healers.

On top of that, 8y is actually a fair bit of distance. Pull up AST's Collective Unconscious. Then to go the extra yalm, combine that with Endwalker hitbox sizes. You might as well be hanging out in Narnia as far as the actual enemy character is concerned.

I'm on board with Improved Holy, or whatever you want to call it, being ranged. The base Holy is fine as is, though. /two cents

I don't dislike these ideas. I'd need to try them and find new things to want to tweak about them of course, but there's potential. They don't commit the sin of current-WHM design i.e. rewarding using healing abilities without regard to their effectiveness.

Honestly I think that's the major thing that separates DPS procs from healing ones. When you use Dancer or Red Mage abilities, you have your baseline proc-less rotation. You hope for a proc, because it's a nice little damage bump. Your outcomes are "good" and "better"; hitting the boss is never a bad thing. FFXIV's combat doesn't really ask you to stop your damage output at any point when you could choose to. Healing procs aren't like this. So I used Cure. Okay, cool. I got a Freecure proc. I could u-oh wait everyone's full. Better hope it doesn't fall off before I can use it. Oh I'm nearly capped on lilies! If I don't use one I'll lose a Misery. But everyone's full, guess I'll dedicate a moment to using a dead GCD then.

I guess if you frame procs as opportunities, the distinction becomes clear. The opportunity to deal damage is always useful. You don't have to take it if you have something more important to do, but the option is there. Healing opportunities are only useful if health is missing. DPS procs (like the ones you're suggesting here) are more satisfying because there's never any "wasted work". You didn't sit around doing the usefulness-equivalent of thumbing the Peloton button just because the devs decided to tie an extra boost somewhere else to it.

I'd definitely want much more of a skill ceiling on WHM, but I wouldn't object to this specific rearranging of the deck chairs.

This is an okay suggestion but:
1. Cure III is wonk targeting already and hard to gauge what it will hit, very niche use cases unless targeting yourself. Can we have the targeting of holy be in addition to how holy works now? (So when nontargeting it'd just go off as normal)
2a. Unfortunately it seems they are going from procs but this is a nice idea.
2b. That would less uninspired vs 2a.
3. Eh, I'd rather not want this, because it would upset presence of mind timing (I can get a holy in every second) unless it can be worked in.
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I'd rather also them cut down on already existing button bloat for unique answering:
If it exists and does not need to exist, it shouldn't.
If there is a better skill that feels like an upgrade, that skill need not be duplicated. (Cure>Cure2) I've seen many persons cast these tier spells in higher content even so much so as 80+ as the tank.
Buttons worth removing in terms of evolution via from whm IMO:
Cure>Cure II and maybe even > Under Temperance and Presence of Mind changes Cure II > Cure III (so Cure III becomes more intuitive. Can make it the same potency as it has a cost to use now.)
Medica> Medica II
Aquaveil > Divine Benison (also absorbs Aquaveils effect)
Plenary Indulgence > Temperance (increase in heal potency)
(an outlier) Tetragrammation > Afflatus Solace (but now oGcD and only Solace, Rapture still GCD).
That's six button slots for unique actions in whm alone. Some being damage, some being unique to some new use case.
(I think people could even cut it down further but this would be a start)

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Originally Posted by Katish

Can we have the targeting of holy be in addition to how holy works now? (So when nontargeting it'd just go off as normal)

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I thought this was what I said? I'm not quite sure if we're saying the same thing or not, but I think so...?

Valid point on 2a, but 2b is basically like PLD's Holy Might, so if nothing else, I think we can reasonably say they'd be open to it.

Some of those would require modifications. For example, Cure 2 has a 0.5 sec longer cast and 400 more MP cost than Cure 1. If Cure 2 was made 1.5 sec cast and 400 MP cost, then that'd be fine. Medica to Medica 2 can also work, though Medica 2 would need its initial hit's potency to be equal to Medica 1 and a slightly lower the MP cost. It ARGUABLY does the same by the initial HoT tick going off with the cast, so just tweaking it to not seem like a downgrade would work. Cure 3 has a pretty unique use-case, though, so it can't really be made an upgrade to anything.

Plenary Indulgence isn't really like Temperance, though they could make Divine Seal (old removed ability) as a lower level Temperance and add Protect to Plenary Indulgence to make them cover more.

Tetra and Solace are likewise different, though I could see Divine Benison becoming Aquaveil (getting the reduced damage effect tacked on).

Regarding the suggestions in the OP:

1) Heck no for the reasons mentioned in the SCH thread. Changing Holy to be targeted akin to Gravity is 100% a nerf and substantial DPS loss even if you don't realise it. Holy has some unique advantages in it's current form that IMHO outweigh the 'disadvantage' of needing to close.

2) Thundercloud procs are something I've suggested and would absolutely get behind. 3x Holy after 3 glares I'm not so keen on, it's not got the unpredictability of procs so you're effectively making a 1112 rotation which is something, but a very meeeeh something IMO, I'd rather see something a bit more interesting that breaks up the monotony a bit... Like Thundercloud procs ;). (Also side note, assuming the cast time stayed as is, weaving on the Holy part of the rotation would be an issue).

3) I'd never say no to more Lilies, but I think it could be executed in a more satisfying stylish way. I'd suggest the following:

Holy has a 10% chance on hit to cause Dia on a target to detonate for it's remaining potency removing the dot in the process. This detonation will trigger any other Dia in a 5y radius to explode as well. Grants 1 additional Blood lily for every 3 targets hit by this detonation.

IMHO this would be neat but really quite deceptive. In a fairly typical 8 mob double trash pack pull you'd proc the detonation almost immediately and get a pair of Blood Lilies to boot likely landing you with a meaty upfront lump of potency right off the bat as you explode the full duration Dias and likely follow up with a Misery in the following GCD. The reality is that the only DPS gain is the extra Blood Lilies though, as assuming you're dotting mobs on the pull, it's generally the norm for dots to run their duration before the pack dies. If you genuinely wanted more damage, you could increase the power of this by having the detonation deal the full dot damage rather than just the remaining potency, but that may be a little strong on pulls that cover a longer distance.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

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1) Read the OP again: If you target yourself or a party member (e.g. not an enemy), Holy would be centered on you, the WHM. Meaning you could stand in the middle of the enemy pack while targeting your Tank and spam Holy identically to today. How is this a nerf? It can't be a nerf - 100% or otherwise - since this would retain the exact same functionality as it does today. Want to hit all the adds on Ex5? Target yourself or the Tanks or some other party member - something you might be doing anyway to Heal them. In what way is this a nerf? Again, you're some hotshot raider, aren't you? I'm a Timmy Casual and I can manage this. You aren't more inept at this game than I am. Again, without it, (2) is a no-go. I'd only support (2) if we got (1).

2) It technically wouldn't be 1112. If you look at my example rotation, you see you're often delaying some Glare or Holy as you move around Dia and Afflatus abilities in the rotation. Either way, it's something.

3) Maybe, but as I said, I was just trying to think of something that changed the AOE rotation from "Holy, Holy, Holy....Holy, Holy, Holy......Holy, Holy..." to something else, and as we have Misery right there on our ability list, we might as well use it. I don't really like your idea since it could easily overcap on Blood Lily (if one Dia detonates, it'd detonate them all), and it would make the optimal rotation impossible to determine. There'd be some weird expectation value calculation to determine how many Dia's are optimal to put into a pack given the 10% detonation rate, which would have to be prorated to not count the part of the Dia's expired on average before it goes off. Since it's only a 10% change, it's unclear what the optimal point would be to use Dia or not use Dia on the trash, and if you DIDN'T get a proc, then you'd be hobbling your DPS by casting all those Dias, while if you DID get a proc, then it completely shifts what you're doing as you have to decide how much longer everything will live and do the expectation value calculation again. Collectively...that's kind of insane. Even if Balance puts out a cheat sheet day three, it'll make the slow runs (if you get a WHM that doesn't look up guides) even SLOWER than they are now, like as not, which will probably not be better for the community overall.

There's a reason that RNG is bad and predictability is good sometimes. Especially for a white bread Healer.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

I thought this was what I said?

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Then I agree with that idea but for 2B PLD is becoming less and less inspired so borrowing from that would be just that (wouldn't be surprised if they get a raise next update). Cure III wouldn't need to be an upgrade but a conditional usage that takes up Cure II's button under conditions and those conditions are: when under Presence of Mind or Temperance(either)...which again would make it more intuitive i.e why Cure III is named that but is actually AoE (Presence of Mind would allow for faster cast of it when needed and Temperance would make it so you need to plan true burst healing. Since the skill would now have a cost being one skill or other it would be also justifiable to keep it at Cure II original potency so when sprouts are using it they are not risking the tanks death by just spamming Cure III [this has happened in groups I have been in]). As for Plenary Indulgence and Temperance being one or the other, they answer the same question pumping up healing (while Temperance also has some mitigation it still shares heal pumping) when there could be other class defining structures like one healer having AoE esuna or more damaging skills or really any new skill (movement, tethers, procks, stances, whatever) and ironically this alone would start seperating healer identity if its really thought on in terms of which healer would get what.. As for mp costs those shouldn't matter given if you're balancing lucid dreaming you're probably fine but I wouldn't mind adjusting it down if needed to appease those bad at heal timing. But yeah, since we're limited in buttons due to controller restraints it would make sense to have buttons feel more unique in terms of what they answer rather than what they are.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Katish

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Honestly, Cure 3's name should be Cura 1. The idea is that Cure 1/2 are for single targets, Medica 1/2 are for multiple targets that need middling healing (or gradual healing), while Cure 3 (ideally "Cura") is for a short range but bigger healing, for when people must be healed quickly and can stack to do so as the trade-off.

Cure 3 being conditional doesn't work because of that.

As for PI and Temperance - sorta, but no. Temperance is mitigation (reduces damage taken) and healing of all types. PI is specifically if AOE healing is needed to recover from damage taken. It's like saying Cure 2 and Medica are the same thing. Moreover, you generally need to heal multiple sections of big hits during big boss fights. So if you use Temperance, sure, you got through that mechanic. What do you do in 40 seconds when the next big spike of party damage comes in? Right now, you can use PI for that. But without PI, now what do you do? You could ask that Temperance's CD be reduced, but it would need to be reduced to 40 seconds or something like that for this to work.

I suppose it all comes down to how you broke the Healers out, but WHM isn't the first choice of Healer with an expansive damage kit. SGE would probably be the first choice for that, then SGE second choice.

WHM is in a weird spot in that it has oGCDs, instant cast GCDs, and cast time GCDs that do the same thing, but they each have distinct castes. Cure 2 exists if you need to heal over and over and can stand still. Solace does that, but can only be used a limited number of times, but can be used during movement. Tetra does that, can be used while moving, can even be weaved between casts to get in an instant heal if the person would have died otherwise, but is highly limited to just one use at a time. Combining them would be like if we took Lustrate and Adlo and Excog and said they were just one ability now, or Benefic, Aspected Benefic, and Essential Dignity on AST. There are some things that seem superficially similar, but have distinct use cases.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Renathras

Honestly, Cure 3's name should be Cura 1. The idea is that Cure 1/2 are for single targets, Medica 1/2 are for multiple targets that need middling healing (or gradual healing), while Cure 3 (ideally "Cura") is for a short range but bigger healing, for when people must be healed quickly and can stack to do so as the trade-off.

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There's precedent for it with FF11 too, afaik the number dictates the strength (Cure 3 is stronger than Cure 2) and the -aga suffix dictates it being 'weaker, but AOE', so 'Curaga 3' is a thing that can exist, despite older games having Cure 3 and Curaga as the same thing. Only problem is, they do actually use Curaga in JP, in fact EN is the only one that uses the numbers system instead of suffixes, here's an old reddit thread with some examples. EN being the way it is really backs the naming into a corner, but I guess there'd be a lot of confusion now if we changed Fire 2 to 'Firaga' and High Fire 2 to 'Firaga 2'

Direct mechanical relationships are pretty much always a good way to make the gameplay more interesting. You'll find a lot of healer mains would be behind some sort of Proc system for their classes- Though some might suprise you (Probably on the high end of things) by saying the RNG of a proc system is bad and should be avoided.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Renathras

Honestly, Cure 3's name should be Cura 1. The idea is that Cure 1/2 are for single targets, Medica 1/2 are for multiple targets that need middling healing (or gradual healing), while Cure 3 (ideally "Cura") is for a short range but bigger healiĺng

As for PI and Temperance - sorta, but no. Temperance is mitigation (reduces damage taken) and healing of all types. PI is specifically if AOE healing is needed to recover from damage taken. It's like saying Cure 2 and Medica are the same thing. Moreover, you generally need to heal multiple sections of big hits during big boss fights. So if you use Temperance, sure, you got through that mechanic. What do you do in 40 seconds when the next big spike of party damage comes in? Right now, you can use PI for that. But without PI, now what do you do? You could ask that Temperance's CD be reduced, but it would need to be reduced to 40 seconds or something like that for this to work.

I suppose it all comes down to how you broke the Healers out, but WHM isn't the first choice of Healer with an expansive damage kit. SGE would probably be the first choice for that, then SGE second choice.

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I never said to increase Cure III's range just to give a cost at the expense of 1 less button which is an additional gain and synergy to the skillset.
As for outgoing damage, you time your heals if it's not enough then they should reconsider some heal potencies... they shouldn't have two skills pump healing even if one of them is for specific healing, they both answer the same question where one is less useful. As for sage, there is already enough safe healing over whm here and moreover in terms of regen(they have the most regens). It can outheal whm when it comes to ocgd healing without any trade off between dps and healing and they do can this continuously as timing allows them to, they would need to address this issue before that could become a thing by removing the regens from them. IMHO they set a SGE rework up for failure as it is. They can already outdps and outheal a white mage where it matters, so the question would be why even bring white mage? WHM play to be more risky in terms of dps vs healing. That's why each of the healers should excel at something other than just healing as a unique case for each, cause healing has multiple buttons to answer it either by party or single target. And the dichotomy of pure and shield healer need not be a thing...

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

There's precedent for it with FF11 too,...

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Yeah, they need to rework the name structure at this point. It's not like they couldn't just DO IT one day/patch/expansion.

And yeah, FF11 did so. I think FF13 did, too, with Cure and Cura (the other ones were a bit wonky and based on HP). But yeah, that's where I got the idea. WHM should have a spell line of single target, MP efficient healing (Cure 1/2...), a large range AOE with HoT (Medica 1/2), and a close range MP inefficient but high HPS group heal for when people can stack and need healing NOW (Cura or Curaga, whichever, 1/2...)

This would also allow logical upgrade lines over time/expansions, and could be used to make WHM and AST more distinct anyway since WHM has the Cura line while AST would get that result from using oGCDs.

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Originally Posted by GrimGale

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The main problem with procs is they have to be really noticeable. I miss procs frequently on RDM, but it's not terrible since I'm at least trying to pay attention to them. But if I'm healing, I'm watching other things (like health bars), meaning I don't have as much mental RAM to devote to watching for procs. It's why procs aren't generally a great system for Healers. And, as you say, the RNG is bad. It's why I'm more in favor of the (2b) Glare x3 = empowered Holy, personally.

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Originally Posted by Katish

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Oh, SGE is entirely broken, lol, but that's a different issue.

As for Cure 3: No, Cure 3 RIGHT NOW has range. It's got both a range in that you can cast it on any party member and it's got a radius so people can gather in it. Cure 3 isn't single target like Cure 1/2 are.

I do agree that the pure/barrier thing was a total failure and needs to be scrapped, though.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

1) Read the OP again:

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Missed that part, sorry! 2 makes more sense with ranged holy as an addition but honestly I still prefer thundercloud procs over such a simple rotation. As for ranged holy that can still be cast on yourself without a target itself, I could take it or leave it. It has it's merits and I can definitely appreciate that hunkering down under the mob stack isn't for everyone. Even with it, I'd still be personally attached at the hip to the tank in dungeon runs though.

Regarding 3, the idea would not be to refresh them after they detonate, but the main focus here is that it just takes the dot damage you've built up as the pack is being positioned (You dot on the run right? If not, you should be), and front loads it all but guaranteeing you a Misery to really get a nice satisfying chunk DPS in a similar way to how DNC front loads so much damage with Technical Step > Standard Step.

I'm not really sure how it makes the optimal rotation impossible to calculate though? The math is really no different to existing multi dotting and is simple to calculate with a timeline.

Lets go with an 6 mob pull. We've detonated our dia bomb and we think the mobs are going to survive long enough to reapply Dia and go for another detonation. The right value is our total potency up to that point refreshing dia on 6 mobs and then holy spamming for a detonate, the middle is our potency just spamming holy, the left is our timeline in seconds. To keep things simple we're going to ignore crits and spell speed to get a feel for how it's going to shape up. As ever, the caveat applies that this is quick off the top of my head math, if there's a fundamental mistake in the sums by all means point it out, but I think it's accurate enough to drive the point home.

2.5 - 900 - 60 - First mob dotted
3.0 - 1800 - 120
5.0 - 2700 - 180 - Second mob dotted
6.0 - 3600 - 300
7.5 - 4500 - 360 - 3rd
9.0 - 5400 - 540
10.0 - 6300 - 600 - 4th
12.0 - 7200 - 840
12.5 - 8100 - 900 - 5th
15.0 - 9000 - 1260 - All 6 are dotted now, the dot tick aligns with the GCD here
17.5 - 9900 - 1410 - If we detonate now, our shortest dot has 5 ticks remaining for 300 potency, the longest has it's full 10 ticks remaining for 600 potency. With 6 dots I make that a total of 2700 potency.

So even if we detonate here, we're miles off the mark multi dotting at this stage vs just mashing Holy. It's not worth going more in-depth because nothing is going to make up that kind of deficit. Really the only optimisation question would be weighing up popping a Lily if you needed to move out of an AoE vs throwing a Dia, but if you're optimising to that level you're either ignoring the AoE outright and just eating it, or using Swiftcast to Holy as you move.

I get that you don't like the idea and this probably isn't going to change a thing in your eyes. But hopefully it clears up the misconception if nothing else.

*Edit* On RNG, I actually disagree, with caveats though

Negative RNG variance in abilities sucks. Going for a button that you expect to use only for it to not be ready/available is a bad time. 4.0 Lilies, Selene haste, AST Lady and the AST haste card are but a few examples of where this has arisen in places.

However, positive RNG where you get more than you were expecting can be great. Go back a few tiers when bosses hit tanks harder and crit heals on said tanks were great, frequently freeing up an entire GCD for more dps. That's why I really want something like Thundercloud for one of the healers, It's literally a sparkling 660 potency proc with an insta cast. You get a juicy number and it breaks up the monotony of DPSing a little by adding in just a touch of RNG with no downsides.

RNG on healers doesn't have to be a bad thing.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

But if I'm healing, I'm watching other things (like health bars), meaning I don't have as much mental RAM to devote to watching for procs. It's why procs aren't generally a great system for Healers.

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Just because you lack the mental bandwidth doesn't mean everyone lacks the mental bandwidth. :p

Also, watching for procs isn't the only way. Listening can also be an option. Currently, all of the following come with a sound effect:

• SGE's Addersting proc
• DNC reaching 50 Espirit
• DNC capping at four feathers
• DRK's TBN breaking
• PLD reaching 50 Oath Gauge
• SAM reaching 3 stacks of Meditation
• WHM generating a Lily
• WHM fully nourishing the Blood Lily

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

In fact, can you do me a favor and reread the old idea for me:

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Sorry, missed this til now.

1) Plenary moved to 74 is fine, but I personally like the idea of it upgrading from Protect better.

2) Rapture at 70 would be nice as well.

3) Stoneskin being based on Lilies is kinda...meh. I would rather just see a castable one, though having a Lily spender for when everyone's at max health wouldn't go amiss, so I'm neutral on this one, but leaning towards okay with it.

4) Lower level Misery should be much lower. I would arguably put it at 30 or 35, and have WHM learn Solace at 30. This would cement the way Lilies/Misery work early and mix up the lower level rotation more. At highest, I'd swap it with Stoneskin.

5) Bastion is just an upgrade, so it's fine.

6) Sanctuary is a nice idea. In a reverse of how SCH and SGE have a 400p party heal with their AF/AG resource, WHM gets an AOE Succor/Eu Prognosis. Seems fair to me.

7) I've agreed with this idea for Divine Seal for a while.

8) Is Protect in this sense single target or AOE? Again, I think it should be AOE like Plenary.

9) I've never liked Fluid Aura so I don't care much for this. We already have Assize, just make Assize lower level or a lower CD, or have FA be a lower level Assize. We don't need another oGCD damage ability used on CD. And I already told you what I think Water should be.

10) Aero/Dia - hate this with a passion. The thing I hated most about Healers in ARR, the single thing I hated, was how short the DoT durations were. I already hate DoTs, so making them EVEN MORE annoying is a hard no from me and always will be. I'd rather have a 15 sec GCD like Plegma that stacks to 2 than a DoT in general, but especially an even SHORTER DoT that I have to fiddle with even MORE often.

11) Do we really need another gauge? People complain all the time about Faerie Gauge just existing in service to one ability, and this is just that again. Moreover, I generally hate the aesthetic of "nature" spells unless I'm playing a Druid type class, which WHM is not (really, it's not; CNJ is, Druid would be, Geomancer would be, but that's a separate issue). But even ignoring that, this screams Faerie Gauge. The second problem here is that this is basically SMN after Bahamut/Phoenix, and quite a few people cite that as one of the big problems with SMN right now, why missing burst is such a fail, and why death for them sucks so hard. Doing that with WHM seems ripe for all kinds of problems. And then...

12) An AOE Glare (but we already have Holy for that), an AOE Assize (but we already have...Assize...for that), and an AOE Dia (well, at least that's one we don't already have, I guess...); two out of three we already have, so these are kind of just redundant, and WHM already has so much redundant abilities. The last one is especially irksome because...well...DOTS. Seriously; hate DoTs...especially ones that don't interact with the kit, and this one doesn't. Though I do commend you for thinking of a way to make Dia DoT ticks at least mildly interact with the kit.

.

The sad thing is, I'd LIKE this DPS rotation...on a DPS Job. And I don't mean that sarcastically. A DPS Job which had a basic nuke, a basic upkeep DoT with a short duration (every 4th GCD in single target), an oGCD 4x per minute, builds a gauge by taking any of those actions, spends 50 gauge probably at the 1 min mini-burst mark and 100 gauge (2x cycles of the big damage) during 2 min big burst phases. The burst consisting of one big hit, one big oGCD, and one big DoT spread, which each stacking twice. In the burst you'd lead in with Blessing, (having used one some time before getting to your 100 cap again for burst), then with the DoT (Tornado), weave Flood into Quake, Flood and Quake again, (now you have 0 Flood, 0 Quake, 1 Tornado remaining), Blessing again, weave Flood into Quake, Tornado again to snapshot under the burst, then get back to your normal Stone/Aero rotation until Tornado wears off, and then cast it again to refresh that DoT as well.

Throw in some extra stuff like a damage boost ability, a Thundercloud proc, and something like Infuriate to get 50 gauge and that would be a pretty fun DPS Job.

If they added Geomancer to the game with that, I think I'd like the Job a lot. Make it branch from CNJ and I'd have a field day with that.

.

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Originally Posted by AmiableApkallu

Just because you lack the mental bandwidth doesn't mean everyone lacks the mental bandwidth.

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Which is why there are other Healers. Yay!

I will point out for the hundredth time: the healer role is the -only one- that people regularly argue that we neeeeeeeeed a Boring One That Sucks, because if we don't it's too "pressuring" and "scary" and "the queues would collapse"

Maybe I could go over to the DPS subforum and tell all the Samurai mains that it neeeeeeeds to be the Boring One That Sucks because otherwise the seas will boil, the casuals will rend their garments, and Armageddon will kick off if any slight whisper of a skill ceiling makes its way onto the job that MUST be there for casuals who hate complexity.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

I will point out for the hundredth time: the healer role is the -only one- that people regularly argue that we neeeeeeeeed a Boring One...

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No it's not.

People say this about Tanking and DPSing. And have several options that fit it - WAR for Tanks and SMN for DPSers. Before SMN, it was RDM, BRD, and/or DNC.

It's actually been true for most of the game's history that each Role had at least one simple one, and the simple ones were often the most played, but always had adamant fans of its playstyle who didn't want it changed.

EDIT: And as I've told you before, this isn't even limited to FFXIV but tends to be true across MMOs and even into other genres. Most games have an "easy one" if they have a diverse set of options. FFXIV is no different. BRD was the "easy one" for much of the game's history in terms of DPS Jobs. WHM for Healers. Tanks were arguably the Role that didn't have an easy one until WAR drifted into that position, and PLD has somewhat joined it. And if you go look at the Tank forum, you'll see there are some PLD die-hard-opposed-to-6.3 people, but also a lot of people touting it as generally good and/or a step in the right direction.

A very common question on Reddit for FFXIV is "I want to pick up X role - which Job is the easy/easiest one?"

This isn't new or unique to Healers in any way. The only thing that's relatively new is people insisting there shouldn't be one.

At this point I am conviced adding a basic set of talents with choices in passive/active abilities is the choice that will make everybody happy. It will add much needed player expression, will allow Devs more creativity without necessarily adding more button bloat and will allow new players and veteran players to tailor their favourite jobs to their preferred level of simplicity.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Renathras

No it's not.

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Yeah it is. WAR still has the exact same template as the other 3 tanks - 1-2-3 combo ~6ish defensive options and a burst rotation - Fell Cleaves.

DRK also has discount Fell Cleave with dark arts spam. It literally is no different.

If all four tanks can have a 1-2-3 combo shared between them, there is 0 reason for 3 healers to get extra dps options and leave 1 behind.

You keep on insisting that adding the options therefor means WHM is no longer the "easy healer" when you are blatantly wrong since we can add the extra dps options WHILE STILL KEEPING WHM an easy to get into healer.

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Originally Posted by ASkellington

Yeah it is.

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No, it's not.

The question wasn't "how similar are the Tanks", nor was it "how many abilities can a thing have and still be simple"; it was "no other Role has people asking that there be a simple one. The other Roles ABSOLUTELY have people wanting a simple one and that is a thing people want.

At least read things before replying to them.

And for reference, they all ARE different:

GNB isn't at all like WAR. It doesn't have a 1-2-3/-4 upkeep buff with a burst rotation of "press one button then press another button 5 times". You can try to oversimplify it, but go into the Tank forum or FFXIV Discussion and say "WAR plays just like GNB" and you're likely to get laughed at, if not outright destroyed with a bunch of "well ackshually" people setting you straight.

WAR has a branching Combo. PLD used to, but now it's got a secondary sub-combo. GNB has an entire second combo interspaced with oGCD alternations. No, they are not "all the same", and no one who seriously theorycrafts or plays Tanks would make that statement. The closest two are DRK and WAR.

Your argument is akin to saying "Well, GNB has charges it has to manage based on completing its base combo to build to a big burst spender and secondary combo. So every Tank must have a 3 charge system with a big burst spender that consumes 2 charges and a secondary combo that consumes 1 and has a 30 sec CD on use."

No, that'd be STUPID. In fact, most of the Tanks are complaining when they think that the Tanks ARE moving towards each other. The biggest complaint about the PLD rework is "It makes PLD more like GNB". Yet you're insisting that all the Healers should be the same, when that's the very thing the Tanks are complaining about.

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"No it's not." was correct.

One of the bigger complaints about drk is how dull it is outside of burst. And let’s not begin to pretend that whm remotely approaches the complexity of either war or drk in terms of the damage rotation.

E: asking for each healer to have a reasonably deep damage kit isn’t asking for homogenisation. Eg giving scholar a variety of dots and fester and so on and giving white mage rng procs and giving sage continuation or whatever wouldn’t be asking for them all to be more similar than they are now.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fulminating

One of the bigger complaints about drk is how dull it is outside of burst.

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Which also wasn't the question/topic.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fulminating

And let’s not begin to pretend that whm remotely approaches the complexity of either war or drk in terms of the damage rotation.

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Which also wasn't the question/topic.

.

It's almost like people aren't reading things before replying to them. It's seeming to happen so much and be so noticeable since someone stated they weren't doing it that I'm half-wondering if the reason we can't have productive conversations or reach agreement here is people just aren't reading what the people they disagree with them are posting...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fulminating

E: asking for each healer to have a reasonably deep damage kit isn’t asking for homogenisation. Eg giving scholar a variety of dots and fester and so on and giving white mage rng procs and giving sage continuation or whatever wouldn’t be asking for them all to be more similar than they are now.

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Asking for them all to have DPS rotations is more homogenization than asking for one not to. Especially considering how many proposals are either "have procs", "have DoTs" (indeed, none of you have yet proposed a DoT-less design that I've seen), and "build a gauge to spend on DPS" are homogenization when it's proposed that every Healer get it. If every Healer had another DoT and the only distinction was SCH could spread theirs, that would be even more homogenization than now, and more obnoxious.

Though you are the first person I've seen propose SGE have continuation. So...that's new.

Indeed, now that I think of it:

Everyone here spends so much time fighting me on WHM and proposing a dozen different ways to give WHM a more complex rotation (which all somehow boil down to "add some more damage abilities, namely another DoT, some kind of a proc system, and some kind of gauge builder/spender), with the rare (Ty, mainly) person mentioning any of the other Jobs. I think _I_ have proposed more SGE damage rotation suggestions than you guys have.

You write posts with character counts vastly exceeding the limit. If you want people to respond to what you mean, clear and concise is the way to go.

Honestly if it were up to me I’d delete sage for an expansion while the three normal healers were sorted out and then work out if it’s going to need more dark arts or something else. I don’t think anyone is asking for a dps rotation on par with the more involved dps jobs. Just more depth so it’s harder to fall asleep in basically all the content offered by the game.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fulminating

You write posts with character counts vastly exceeding the limit.

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That'd be true of my average post, but you're talking about this post, which was well within the character limit:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Renathras

No it's not.

People say this about Tanking and DPSing. And have several options that fit it - WAR for Tanks and SMN for DPSers. Before SMN, it was RDM, BRD, and/or DNC.

It's actually been true for most of the game's history that each Role had at least one simple one, and the simple ones were often the most played, but always had adamant fans of its playstyle who didn't want it changed.

EDIT: And as I've told you before, this isn't even limited to FFXIV but tends to be true across MMOs and even into other genres. Most games have an "easy one" if they have a diverse set of options. FFXIV is no different. BRD was the "easy one" for much of the game's history in terms of DPS Jobs. WHM for Healers. Tanks were arguably the Role that didn't have an easy one until WAR drifted into that position, and PLD has somewhat joined it. And if you go look at the Tank forum, you'll see there are some PLD die-hard-opposed-to-6.3 people, but also a lot of people touting it as generally good and/or a step in the right direction.

A very common question on Reddit for FFXIV is "I want to pick up X role - which Job is the easy/easiest one?"

This isn't new or unique to Healers in any way. The only thing that's relatively new is people insisting there shouldn't be one.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by fulminating

Honestly if it were up to me I’d delete sage for an expansion while the three normal healers were sorted out and then work out if it’s going to need more dark arts or something else. I don’t think anyone is asking for a dps rotation on par with the more involved dps jobs. Just more depth so it’s harder to fall asleep in basically all the content offered by the game.

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Define "more involved". I've seen people propose things more involved than any of the Tanks or than several of the DPS, and I don't just mean SMN and DNC, but more like RDM or NIN. The average seems to be somewhere between DNC and RDM, which, if we rank DPSers on a scale from 1-5 would rank around a 2.5 or so.

I am very sorry in advance

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Renathras

Sorry, missed this til now.

1) Plenary moved to 74 is fine, but I personally like the idea of it upgrading from Protect better.

2) Rapture at 70 would be nice as well.

3) Stoneskin being based on Lilies is kinda...meh. I would rather just see a castable one, though having a Lily spender for when everyone's at max health wouldn't go amiss, so I'm neutral on this one, but leaning towards okay with it.

4) Lower level Misery should be much lower. I would arguably put it at 30 or 35, and have WHM learn Solace at 30. This would cement the way Lilies/Misery work early and mix up the lower level rotation more. At highest, I'd swap it with Stoneskin.

5) Bastion is just an upgrade, so it's fine.

6) Sanctuary is a nice idea. In a reverse of how SCH and SGE have a 400p party heal with their AF/AG resource, WHM gets an AOE Succor/Eu Prognosis. Seems fair to me.

7) I've agreed with this idea for Divine Seal for a while.

8) Is Protect in this sense single target or AOE? Again, I think it should be AOE like Plenary.

9) I've never liked Fluid Aura so I don't care much for this. We already have Assize, just make Assize lower level or a lower CD, or have FA be a lower level Assize. We don't need another oGCD damage ability used on CD. And I already told you what I think Water should be.

10) Aero/Dia - hate this with a passion. The thing I hated most about Healers in ARR, the single thing I hated, was how short the DoT durations were. I already hate DoTs, so making them EVEN MORE annoying is a hard no from me and always will be. I'd rather have a 15 sec GCD like Plegma that stacks to 2 than a DoT in general, but especially an even SHORTER DoT that I have to fiddle with even MORE often.

11) Do we really need another gauge? People complain all the time about Faerie Gauge just existing in service to one ability, and this is just that again. Moreover, I generally hate the aesthetic of "nature" spells unless I'm playing a Druid type class, which WHM is not (really, it's not; CNJ is, Druid would be, Geomancer would be, but that's a separate issue). But even ignoring that, this screams Faerie Gauge. The second problem here is that this is basically SMN after Bahamut/Phoenix, and quite a few people cite that as one of the big problems with SMN right now, why missing burst is such a fail, and why death for them sucks so hard. Doing that with WHM seems ripe for all kinds of problems. And then...

12) An AOE Glare (but we already have Holy for that), an AOE Assize (but we already have...Assize...for that), and an AOE Dia (well, at least that's one we don't already have, I guess...); two out of three we already have, so these are kind of just redundant, and WHM already has so much redundant abilities. The last one is especially irksome because...well...DOTS. Seriously; hate DoTs...especially ones that don't interact with the kit, and this one doesn't. Though I do commend you for thinking of a way to make Dia DoT ticks at least mildly interact with the kit.

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1: Thanks to editing, it may have been missed but yes, the original idea was that Protect would upgrade to Proshell at 66 (becoming 10% mit instead of 5), then Aquaveil at 86 (becoming 15% mit). Since we came to the agreement I've changed it to be Protect upgrading to PI. I'll re-edit that part to include the change to PI that this would cause after this post

2: cool

3: Stoneskin/Bastion/Sanc are gated by lilies as a mirror to how SCH's burst healing tool (Indom) is gated by Aetherflow. Having it as a standalone cast as it was in the past will likely feel clunky, especially with these lilyspender versions being instantcast. Imagine you just finished a cast of something, and the boss starts winding up a raidwide. Now you have to wait the full GCD, then the whole cast time of the Sanctuary cast, then the animation delay, chances are you're not getting the cast off in time. Having them like this makes it more responsive, at least that's the intention

4: it's at 66 because there's a gap there, it could be lower and have it's potency adjusted if needed

5/6/7: cool

8: Protect would be AOE like PI, as it would become PI at 74/76 whenever it was

9: Now comes the part where you misunderstood things. Fluid Aura was a OGCD. This suggested Water skill is a GCD with a unique CD, similar to something like Goring Blade or Sonic Break. It cannot be compared to Assize because they're very different in function.

10: I'm also not a fan of DOTs, but WHM's always had em so I figure it has to stay. If the devs made it 12s CD GCD, I wouldn't lose any sleep over it. However, I would have concerns that people would start going 'we have a 12s GCD and a 15s GCD why not just combine them into one button' and then we'd be back to where we are now, keeping one as a DOT avoids that (and you can multidot with it, you can't with Banish because of it's CD)

11: Then add it as an aspect of the current Lily Gauge, I'm not fussed. And there's plenty of other examples of gauges that service 'one ability', or 'one ability, or it's AOE variant'. PLD might as well be the Sheltron Gauge. WAR is the FC gauge. DRK is the Bloodspiller Gauge. MNK is the TFC Gauge. DRG's doesn't even need to be a gauge, it could have been a regular 30s buff. SAM's kenki gauge is now the Shinten Gauge, given that Iki lines up with Senei and gives enough gauge to use it instantly. MCH has TWO gauges that are dedicated to one ability each, Hypercharge and Queen respectively. Yeh it'd be nice if FairyGauge was useful on more than one skill sure. But I look at it less as Fairy Gauge and more like WAR's, you get it to 50, you press the one button it's useful for, it has big impact and you feel good about it.

12: Yes, the point of them being AOE is so you can use them in AOE and not feel like you're losing damage by singletargeting. And what do you mean, 'DOTs that don't interact with the kit', I guess I have to edit in that these would also build the gauge at the same rate as their non-empowered counterparts? I figured that'd be obvious but maybe not. And there is no redundancy because as previously mentioned elsewhere (and maybe I'll even edit it in because it's apparently not obvious enough), the Quake skill would replace Glare on your bar while you have the buff. Like how Inner Chaos replaces Fell Cleave on the bar when you have Nascent Chaos. Same for Tornado replacing Dia, Flood replacing Banish. There would be only one new DPS skill keybind, and that's Banish, everything else damagewise makes use of the current keybinds. If anything is causing button bloat here it's going to be the healing side of things.

Actually that reminds me, I need to add a note about re-adding Cleric Stance, let me get on that

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Renathras

The sad thing is, I'd LIKE this DPS rotation...on a DPS Job. And I don't mean that sarcastically. A DPS Job which had a basic nuke, a basic upkeep DoT with a short duration (every 4th GCD in single target), an oGCD 4x per minute, builds a gauge by taking any of those actions, spends 50 gauge probably at the 1 min mini-burst mark and 100 gauge (2x cycles of the big damage) during 2 min big burst phases. The burst consisting of one big hit, one big oGCD, and one big DoT spread, which each stacking twice. In the burst you'd lead in with Blessing, (having used one some time before getting to your 100 cap again for burst), then with the DoT (Tornado), weave Flood into Quake, Flood and Quake again, (now you have 0 Flood, 0 Quake, 1 Tornado remaining), Blessing again, weave Flood into Quake, Tornado again to snapshot under the burst, then get back to your normal Stone/Aero rotation until Tornado wears off, and then cast it again to refresh that DoT as well.

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Here's the issue, people, on average, don't like current SMN for being too on-rails, too simple, nothing to optimize outside of 'where do I put Ifrit'. This would be the same if it were a DPS. I have tried to make it as simple, as forgiving, as welcoming to new players as possible. I cannot make it any more acceptable to you as a healer design without gutting the main thing that makes it 'an improvement over what we have' in my eyes, that being the shortening of Dia and addition of Banish. Removing those makes the whole thing fall apart. And it should be noted that this is still miles behind the 'complexity' that any of the healers in this game's closest competitor have.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

Maybe I could go over to the DPS subforum and tell all the Samurai mains that it neeeeeeeds to be the Boring One That Sucks because otherwise the seas will boil, the casuals will rend their garments, and Armageddon will kick off if any slight whisper of a skill ceiling makes its way onto the job that MUST be there for casuals who hate complexity.

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Isn't that what 'I'm glad Kaiten is gone' does to them?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Renathras

No, that'd be STUPID. In fact, most of the Tanks are complaining when they think that the Tanks ARE moving towards each other. The biggest complaint about the PLD rework is "It makes PLD more like GNB". Yet you're insisting that all the Healers should be the same, when that's the very thing the Tanks are complaining about.

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I'm pretty sure when anyone reads what Skel posted, they'd interpret it as 'all four healers should have some skill ceiling to strive for, each in a unique and flavorful way as befitting their identities', not 'all four healers should have increased complexity, and that should be achieved by adding the same skills to them so they still all play the same, but now harder'. WHM and SGE can both have complexity to strive for, without their damage rotations being carbon copies of each other. Look at the melee, they all have a 123 combo of some kind, but the rest of the kit allows them to play very differently from one another.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Renathras

It's almost like people aren't reading things before replying to them.

I think _I_ have proposed more SGE damage rotation suggestions than you guys have.

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Pot, kettle. If you had scrolled down a little from my WHM idea you'd have seen three different ideas for SGE, with varying amounts of complexity. The third in particular is so long I HB'd it so it wouldn't take so much room. Ty's also done one of similar length, though they may have only posted it in a different thread, rather than a thread of it's own. I don't remember seeing so many of your ideas for SGE, you'll have to dig them up and remind me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fulminating

You write posts with character counts vastly exceeding the limit. If you want people to respond to what you mean, clear and concise is the way to go.

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Sorry in advance

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Renathras

Define "more involved". I've seen people propose things more involved than any of the Tanks or than several of the DPS, and I don't just mean SMN and DNC, but more like RDM or NIN. The average seems to be somewhere between DNC and RDM, which, if we rank DPSers on a scale from 1-5 would rank around a 2.5 or so.

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What would you rank my WHM idea on this scale, given that it only adds one (two if we actually got Cleric Stance as described in the newly edited post) button for damage, and rescales one DOT's duration? Does your hatred of DOTs bump it up to a 3? Is WAR more complex or less than this reworked WHM?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Renathras

No, it's not.

The question wasn't "how similar are the Tanks", nor was it "how many abilities can a thing have and still be simple"; it was "no other Role has people asking that there be a simple one. The other Roles ABSOLUTELY have people wanting a simple one and that is a thing people want.

At least read things before replying to them.

And for reference, they all ARE different:

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If you're going to argue, READ WHAT I SAID.

ALL 4 have a 1-2-3 combo.

ALL 4 have the same Defensive CDs just renamed

AND ALL FOUR HAVE A BURST ROTATION.

Do go back and read with glasses this time WHERE exactly I said that WAR's burst rotation WAS THE SAME AS GNB's?

That's the thing. I didn't. YOU DID. Stop putting words in my mouth to fit your narrative that isn't there.

I compared DRK and WAR. Not WAR and GNB.

The point is, people keep saying that "oh healers can't have this because they need to focus on healing". I DON'T SEE TANKS HAVING ANY PROBLEM WITH A 3 STEP BASE COMBO ROTATION ON TOP OF A BURST ROTATION WHILE MITIGATING. So why there for are people so insistent on having healers that way is why I even made the comparison between them in the first place.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ASkellington

If you're going to argue, READ WHAT I SAID.

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Follow the conversation:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

I will point out for the hundredth time: the healer role is the -only one- that people regularly argue that we neeeeeeeeed a Boring One That Sucks, because if we don't it's too "pressuring" and "scary" and "the queues would collapse

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Renathras

No it's not.

People say this about Tanking and DPSing. And have several options that fit it - WAR for Tanks and SMN for DPSers. Before SMN, it was RDM, BRD, and/or DNC.

It's actually been true for most of the game's history that each Role had at least one simple one, and the simple ones were often the most played, but always had adamant fans of its playstyle who didn't want it changed.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by ASkellington

Yeah it is. WAR still has the exact same template as the other 3 tanks - 1-2-3 combo ~6ish defensive options and a burst rotation - Fell Cleaves.

DRK also has discount Fell Cleave with dark arts spam. It literally is no different.

If all four tanks can have a 1-2-3 combo shared between them, there is 0 reason for 3 healers to get extra dps options and leave 1 behind.

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[I added just the underlines "as the other 3 tanks" and "all four tanks", the rest are original.]

Ahem:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Renathras

The question wasn't "how similar are the Tanks", nor was it "how many abilities can a thing have and still be simple"; it was "no other Role has people asking that there be a simple one. The other Roles ABSOLUTELY have people wanting a simple one and that is a thing people want.

...

"No it's not." was correct.

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.

The one thing hilariously annoying to me about this subforum is that whenever one of you guys does something wrong and gets caught in it, not only will the person not admit to it, not only will they not apologize, not only will the weaponize it as yet another attack, but then for the next week or two, everyone else will attempt to "I know you are but what am I?" push it onto me even when it doesn't apply.

I read your post. You compared DRK and WAR while insisting that you were referring to ALL FOUR Tanks. You said all four, and were giving an example using the two most similar to prove it. Then when called out, you backed off on the point and tried to use it as a "You don't read people's posts!!!" attack when I very clearly read your post; the issue was you neither read mine nor were keeping up with the conversation when you decided to interject without even being right about the thing you chose to interject about. We both know what you meant to say, but by all means, pretend in saying "the tanks are all the same" you DIDN'T mean "the tanks are all the same":

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ASkellington

WAR still has the exact same template as the other 3 tanks - 1-2-3 combo ~6ish defensive options and a burst rotation

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"I said they all have the exact same template, but I didn't MEAN they were the same! Stop putting my own words into my mouth!"

EVERY Job looks the same from a far enough zoom. Every Job in the game dodges mechanics and pushes buttons on their keyboard. That isn't what makes things the same. That's what makes it a videogame.

EDIT:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fulminating

e: as indicated by the tank forum thread and the ffxivdiscussion thread, the orange and red boxes are really rather similar in practice

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The Reddit thread is largely people saying "they're the same if you don't look closely, but they're not at all the same". There are several concurrent discussions, but that seems to be the gist of it, including some people saying "But if we get into the nuance of each tank and applied even a single braincell, then that person either has no idea what they’re talking about, or they were being extremely hyperbolic for the sake of their argument."

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Renathras

"I said they all have the exact same template, but I didn't MEAN they were the same! Stop putting my own words into my mouth!"

EVERY Job looks the same from a far enough zoom. Every Job in the game dodges mechanics and pushes buttons on their keyboard. That isn't what makes things the same. That's what makes it a videogame.

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I think this explains it

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...2026/image.png

e: as indicated by the tank forum thread and the ffxivdiscussion thread, the orange and red boxes are really rather similar in practice

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Renathras

"I said they all have the exact same template, but I didn't MEAN they were the same! Stop putting my own words into my mouth!"

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I can't tell if you're being obtuse or just failing to understand.

I'll make it easy for you even though its a lost cause with you because you don't even want to try.

The BURST ROTATION is what SEPARATES the tanks hence why I only mentioned it (and why I compared WAR and DRK in the first place).

I compared the BASIC ROTATION between the four of them BECAUSE they're exactly the same to prove a point.

So YES you were putting words in my mouth when you said:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Renathras

GNB isn't at all like WAR. It doesn't have a 1-2-3/-4 upkeep buff with a burst rotation of "press one button then press another button 5 times". You can try to oversimplify it, but go into the Tank forum or FFXIV Discussion and say "WAR plays just like GNB" and you're likely to get laughed at, if not outright destroyed with a bunch of "well ackshually" people setting you straight.

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I NEVER SAID GNB was akin to WAR outside of the 1-2-3 combo, WHICH WAR STILL HAS. I didn't add the extra 4 because it doesn't add much to get my point across, I don't expect people to be that nitpicky, and I'm trying to keep my posts CONCISE. Which, it does.

And even YOU said WAR and DRK were pretty much the same, WHICH I ALSO SAID.

And no my argument does NOT boil down to giving every healer the same thing. YOU THINK DOES, but I've NEVER EXPLICITLY SAID SO. If you want my thoughts how about you ASK instead of ASSUMING.

I've purposefully not given my thoughts on how to diversify the healers IN DETAIL because I quite frankly find 0 interest in fleshing out abilities with numbers instead of giving a basic summary and what I would like to see out of this game, the game ISN'T going to do and I'm in the minority when it comes to adding in these things.

And believe you me, no one wants my idea of WHM.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ASkellington

And believe you me, no one wants my idea of WHM.

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Bet, post it I'm always down to read a healer rework idea. Whether I agree with it is a completely different story

Also giving this one a bump since some people have indicated liking the idea and wanting to discuss it as well.