Idea for Sage I guess

Had an idea while idly browsing reddit and procrastinating finishing the new glowy tools.

- When Eukrasian Diagnosis and Eukrasian Prognosis break, they turn into a new buff called, idk, Second Opinion or something medical

- This new buff lasts around 4-5 seconds (very short timeframe) and during it's duration, the player can activate Pepsis, and it will heal as if the shield were still there (potency might need to be a little lower to compensate)

- Also probably reduce Pepsis' CD to like 10 seconds

It'd be like a 'counterattack' or a 'perfect parry' of sorts but it heals instead of doing damage, idk I think it'd be something fun to liven up the gameplay

No, if that were to happen, then SCH needs to have the same perks equivalent to it. …………well, SCH kind of already have it as energy drain. Shield breaks on a single target or AoE shield weather succor or consolation, but breaks your own, gives a stock for energy drain. Remove button, add it as trait, use that empty button for a new ability.

…..sry, went off script on that one. Got me thinking further. It’s possible, make it equivalent to recitation. Idk how to call it though. Pop the ability, pop a shield, breaks whether it’s single or AoE, gives either the single target or party a HP boost maybe, varies by %. Can’t see it as a reflect like buff for 5 or less seconds.

SGE or WHM getting a feature that Astro or Scholar doesn't also immediately get a superior equivalent to?

Perish the thought.

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Originally Posted by Osmond

No, if that were to happen, then SCH needs to have the same perks equivalent to it. …………well, SCH kind of already have it as energy drain. Shield breaks on a single target or AoE shield weather succor or consolation, but breaks your own, gives a stock for energy drain. Remove button, add it as trait, use that empty button for a new ability.

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And this right here, ladies and gentlemen, is the reason why AST/ SCH is perpetually superior and the role as whole gets more and more homogenized to the point of having near identical keybinds on all healers.
Because god forbid one healer has something another doesn't get as well - especially if AST and/ or SCH are the ones deeply suffering from this grave injustice.

How about we instead push for more unique approaches, gameplay and distinct identities?

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Originally Posted by Rilifane

And this right here, ladies and gentlemen, is the reason why AST/ SCH is perpetually superior and the role as whole gets more and more homogenized to the point of having near identical keybinds on all healers.
Because god forbid one healer has something another doesn't get as well - especially if AST and/ or SCH are the ones deeply suffering from this grave injustice.

How about we instead push for more unique approaches, gameplay and distinct identities?

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I was thinking on the fly after all. Even though some abilities are unique based on the job yes, it has to be near or equal to their competitive healer. Divine Benison to Celestial Intersection for example. Excogitation to Taurochole. Slight differences, but equivalent to each other. So Sage ability that Forsaken suggest is possible, I can see it on equivalent to Recitation. I can see that happening in 7.0 the more I think about it.

I really don't think the healers need to have equivalents, and that belief is what led us to situations like SGE just being 80% a SCH that looks cooler. Basic tools can be somewhat similar, but how you approach healing and utility beyond that should be different colors, not 4 different shades of green.

You right, healers don’t need equivalent abilities, but here we are. Our eyes sees it, no point in denying it. That what the devs giving us so I expect them to continue that path next expansion.

I love this world we live in where the solution to a broken pipe is to break every other pipe in the same spot so every pipe is uniformly broken rather than just fixing the first pipe.

I just ask the question, “what you I do if I was them? Create 5+ unique abilities for not only 4 healers, but every other job in the game…plus 1 or 2 new jobs or create 3-4 near to equal to abilities to save time and cost to not only 4 healers, but the tanks?(DPS a different story)”

I can see them doing the latter.

Ultimately the combat design does not have room for more than 2 healers. The obsession with every job being able to do everything every other job can, and the frantic desire the devs have shown to strip all individuality from every role, but especially healers is nothing more than a curse. Sage in particular is very much a square peg in a round hole given it's a shield healer yet supposedly revolves around healing through damage. As the devs will seemingly neither accommodate innovation nor deviate from this path, the only course of action is to strip sage of either the kardia suite (such as it is) or the shield aspect - after all ast lost its sects.

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Originally Posted by fulminating

Ultimately the combat design does not have room for more than 2 healers. The obsession with every job being able to do everything every other job can, and the frantic desire the devs have shown to strip all individuality from every role, but especially healers is nothing more than a curse. Sage in particular is very much a square peg in a round hole given it's a shield healer yet supposedly revolves around healing through damage. As the devs will seemingly neither accommodate innovation nor deviate from this path, the only course of action is to strip sage of either the kardia suite (such as it is) or the shield aspect - after all ast lost its sects.

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https://i.imgur.com/RCUNl6g.gif

The innovation is there, it just making more of a designation? Playing FFXI all the way to RoV, having multiple healers is possible. Many spells going to be the same, effects are different, same with abilities, but will have their exclusive abilities and traits. It’s no different. It’s why I see it as pointless to argue or debate when it’s going to happen no matter what.

Thought about it a little more, I'd probably expect the healing from the Pepsis to be capped at the amount of HP the barrier was worth at it's application. Or maybe make it able to heal more than an Indom but make Pepsis cost an Addersgall

And why does SCH also need the same thing if it were implemented? I know SGE is already 80% SCH, 15% Noct AST Frankestein'd leftovers and 5% Panhaima, but why do we need to make that 80% be 85%? Why cant we have the two of them diverge a bit more in design

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Originally Posted by fulminating

Sage in particular is very much a square peg in a round hole given it's a shield healer yet supposedly revolves around healing through damage.

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'We are splitting the healers into Pure, who focus on throughput raw healing, and Barrier, who focus more on shields and mitigations'

'Also our new Barrier healer SGE will have a 600p AOE heal, which can be amped to 900p.'

What did Yoshi mean by this

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

'We are splitting the healers into Pure, who focus on throughput raw healing, and Barrier, who focus more on shields and mitigations'

'Also our new Barrier healer SGE will have a 600p AOE heal, which can be amped to 900p.'

What did Yoshi mean by this

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Burst ≠ Throughput.

Over the course of a typical minute in Duty Finder, say, even if a SGE has to address the same amount of incoming damage and damage taken as a WHM, for the WHM, it's going to be almost entirely HP restoration ("throughput raw healing"), whereas for the SGE, you'd expect some of the damage to be mitigated and another good chunk absorbed by shields.

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Originally Posted by AmiableApkallu

Burst ≠ Throughput.

Over the course of a typical minute in Duty Finder, say, even if a SGE has to address the same amount of incoming damage and damage taken as a WHM, for the WHM, it's going to be almost entirely HP restoration ("throughput raw healing"), whereas for the SGE, you'd expect some of the damage to be mitigated and another good chunk absorbed by shields.

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Depending on the content, a good SGE isn't applying barriers that much outside of Haima/Panhaima/Holos. Rarely is Eukrasian Prog/Diag worth that barrier. It's mainly Kerachole mitigation you'd expect.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

Depending on the content, a good SGE isn't applying barriers that much outside of Haima/Panhaima/Holos. Rarely is Eukrasian Prog/Diag worth that barrier. It's mainly Kerachole mitigation you'd expect.

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Well, I did say, "typical minute in Duty Finder."

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

Had an idea while idly browsing reddit and procrastinating finishing the new glowy tools.

- When Eukrasian Diagnosis and Eukrasian Prognosis break, they turn into a new buff called, idk, Second Opinion or something medical

- This new buff lasts around 4-5 seconds (very short timeframe) and during it's duration, the player can activate Pepsis, and it will heal as if the shield were still there (potency might need to be a little lower to compensate)

- Also probably reduce Pepsis' CD to like 10 seconds

It'd be like a 'counterattack' or a 'perfect parry' of sorts but it heals instead of doing damage, idk I think it'd be something fun to liven up the gameplay

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Funnily enough, due to the way the game calculates stuff like this, you can already do this. There's a very small window where you can press Pepsis during a raidwide where the game will reduce damage with respect to the shield but you also get the full heal from Pepsis. It would be nice to have a more lenient window to do this though.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

Funnily enough, due to the way the game calculates stuff like this, you can already do this. There's a very small window where you can press Pepsis during a raidwide where the game will reduce damage with respect to the shield but you also get the full heal from Pepsis. It would be nice to have a more lenient window to do this though.

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Didn't know that, but I guess it makes sense with how the servers work (or don't), I think it'd be interesting to see as an actual playstyle. The Tanks get a bonus if they time their mit well before a hit (HOC/Sheltron/etc having 2x the mitigative effect), so having a 'healer that gets a bonus if they time a heal right after a hit' would be doable surely

I tried that out of happenstance….during UCoB. Had that moment of, “I wonder if it’ll work?” Sure enough it did, but had to watch the animation to time it.

Also the similarities between SCH and SGE? I’m just looking at the results between the 2 in abilities, traits, etc. They are diverging in terms of abilities exclusive to that job, yet some tools are going to feel similar in some ways. It’s why I don’t see much anger or frustration about it cause it’s not new. I already can see them making 1-3 abilities exclusive to that job, but some with potency loss, but add in a mitigation buff or shield, but the other stronger potency, but can buff that potency with an existing tool.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

I really don't think the healers need to have equivalents, and that belief is what led us to situations like SGE just being 80% a SCH that looks cooler. Basic tools can be somewhat similar, but how you approach healing and utility beyond that should be different colors, not 4 different shades of green.

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Honestly, I've joked a lot how AST is basically WHM but better, but it's not so much that it copied WHM as much as both just having the most basic gcd healing kit (heal, regen, aoe heal, emergency heal, etc) so it made sense both jobs would have similarities ... but Sage, as much as I like the aesthetics.....yeah, it really has no excuse, it's literally just a reskinned SCH with lilies instead of aetherflow.

Imo Sage should be, if anything, the one healer with a damage kit comaprable to an actual dps job (potencies aside) and have Kardia being % based on the damage it does (abilities like Bloodbath already do this). It may be more annoying to balance, but the concept of a healer that heals through damage is not new, and the devs have several other games to get inspiration/feedback from.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

SGE just being 80% a SCH that looks cooler

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That's rather subjective. It just looks like it's trying too hard to me and I don't think much of the artefact armour either. So far the sage doodahs have also not been particularly interesting for the most part, but as with scholar there's definitely potential for something interesting there.

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Originally Posted by Allegor

Imo Sage should be, if anything, the one healer with a damage kit comaprable to an actual dps job (potencies aside) and have Kardia being % based on the damage it does (abilities like Bloodbath already do this). It may be more annoying to balance, but the concept of a healer that heals through damage is not new, and the devs have several other games to get inspiration/feedback from.

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Much as I'm not a DPSer, I agree with this.

I thought SGE was going to be the GNB for Healers - the one for people that prefer playing DPSers anyway.

The balance would just be to set up its DPS kit to something like SMN/DNC/RDM difficulty, balance it to do around WHM's DPS, then set up the percent of damage converted into healing to give it the same general throughput as WHM maintaining good DPS (Glare/Dia) uptime.

Instead of making it a barrier healer, make it do direct healing outright. Do your rotation well, do good healing too. Do your rotation poorly, and have to fallback on the boring GCD Cure/Medica equivalents.

"But Jonny Casual!!" - And? SGE isn't for Jonny Casual HEALER, it's for Jonny Casual DPS MAIN, who should be more than capable of keeping up a SMN rotation. And in cases where they DO mess it up, it would still have white bread Diagnosis and Prognosis to try and keep the situation afloat, as well as some party mitigation (think Kerachole without the HoT) to try and smooth out damage. Can also give them like an oGCD big hit attack which is used (via healing plan or for emergencies) as their "heals from tankbuster/unexpected DPS stood in bad" button. (Or be boring and give them Durochole, whichever)

Just go all in on the "heals by doing damage" by making your damage rotation performance dictate both your damage AND your healing done, while you have a few emergency buttons if your wiff your rotation or damage is extra high/party members mess up, and you have your white bread GCD emergency Cure 1 and Medica 1 in case you really have to fall back on them.

Its healing kit would be more technical and depend on using some oGCDs to modify Kardia/reduce party incoming damage, while the goal would be maintaining said DPS rotation.

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When they announced SGE, that's legitimately what I thought they were going to be going for. And I kind of wish they did as there would be that option for the people who get bored with Healers as they are and would like that outlet.

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Originally Posted by Allegor

Honestly, I've joked a lot how AST is basically WHM but better, but it's not so much that it copied WHM as much as both just having the most basic gcd healing kit (heal, regen, aoe heal, emergency heal, etc) so it made sense both jobs would have similarities ... but Sage, as much as I like the aesthetics.....yeah, it really has no excuse, it's literally just a reskinned SCH with lilies instead of aetherflow.

Imo Sage should be, if anything, the one healer with a damage kit comaprable to an actual dps job (potencies aside) and have Kardia being % based on the damage it does (abilities like Bloodbath already do this). It may be more annoying to balance, but the concept of a healer that heals through damage is not new, and the devs have several other games to get inspiration/feedback from.

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So its ok for ast to be a fully copied whm but its a problem that sage is 80% scholar, too wrong makes no right that is so biased. Both Ast and Sage should be rework to be totally different from whm and sch period. Once upon a time sch was a clone of smn btw when it use to have part of smn dps kit just far lower potencies.

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Originally Posted by fulminating

That's rather subjective. It just looks like it's trying too hard to me and I don't think much of the artefact armour either. So far the sage doodahs have also not been particularly interesting for the most part, but as with scholar there's definitely potential for something interesting there.

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Floating weapons look to me way more cooler and makes more sense in a fantasy game(sage) than someone looking like a 24 hour nerd with a book for a weapon and some wanna be tinker bell pet(sch). Heck people still even make topics on why sch dont even seem to fit its identity like whm/ast/sge you can assume what their identities are. Then again sch so ugly it makes sense they link them and their origins to tonberries.

There’s so much animation vomit on sage compared with sch - even white mage is more restrained. Ast isn’t, but at least has the decency to use less garish colours. Magic books/tomes/grimoires are also an incredibly established aesthetic both in the series and in real folklore, more so than nebulous floating rocks - and that’s without touching on the inclusion of magic writing/geometry included with arcanist.

Presumably the 4 doodahs are meant to evoke the 4 humours, but the way they’re mirrored and complete interchangeability leaves much to be desired. Even a token variation in colours black/red/yellow/white for black bile/blood/yellow bile/phlegm respectively would be something.

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Originally Posted by fulminating

There’s so much animation vomit on sage compared with sch - even white mage is more restrained. Ast isn’t, but at least has the decency to use less garish colours. Magic books/tomes/grimoires are also an incredibly established aesthetic both in the series and in real folklore, more so than nebulous floating rocks - and that’s without touching on the inclusion of magic writing/geometry included with arcanist.

Presumably the 4 doodahs are meant to evoke the 4 humours, but the way they’re mirrored and complete interchangeability leaves much to be desired. Even a token variation in colours black/red/yellow/white for black bile/blood/yellow bile/phlegm respectively would be something.

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sch= related to tonberries=dead people with whos aim is to take living things lives and is bitter
sage=technology
whm=nature healer
ast=future/time/space healer

Books makes 0 sense on sch but it certainly fits smn since they use mystical beasts that is ancient, sch has no identity of nothing just a nerd. sch has the most ugliest and boring colored spells, of just toxic boring of green and yellow only, how nice all other 3 healers have various colors+ rainbow effects lol.

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Originally Posted by IceBlueNinja

sch= related to tonberries=dead people with whos aim is to take living things lives and is bitter
sage=technology
whm=nature healer
ast=future/time/space healer

Books makes 0 sense on sch but it certainly fits smn since they use mystical beasts that is ancient, sch has no identity of nothing just a nerd. sch has the most ugliest and boring colored spells, of just toxic boring of green and yellow only, how nice all other 3 healers have various colors+ rainbow effects lol.

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Your posts are always bizarre and full of nonsensical seething over Scholar for some weird reason, but saying that "Books make 0 sense" on the job literally named "Scholar" is certainly one of the strangest things I've seen you post. Do you know what the word "scholar" means?

https://files.catbox.moe/o3pqpw.PNG

Books don't make sense for a learned academic...?

And also for the continued Scholar obsession that you've made your signature:

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For those calling sage a copied sch, do remember once upon a time that sch is a copied clown of smn when it use to had summon dps kit before shadow bringers

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Scholar never had any of Summoner's DPS kit, they shared (and still share) a base class in Arcanist, of which Scholar retains everything from except Miasma, Miasma II, Shadow Flare and Bane. (Summoner doesn't have any of these anymore either.) It still has Aetherflow, Bio, Bio II, Ruin, Ruin II, Physick, Resurrection and Energy Drain from the old Arcanist kit. Scholar never had things like Fester, Summon Ifrit or Dreadwyrm Trance. Scholar sharing a base class with Summoner in Arcanist also doesn't change Sage being a Scholar clone, so it's a completely random thing to point out and isn't the "gotcha" you think it is.

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Originally Posted by Nizzi

Your posts are always bizarre and full of nonsensical seething over Scholar for some weird reason, but saying that "Books make 0 sense" on the job literally named "Scholar" is certainly one of the strangest things I've seen you post. Do you know what the word "scholar" means?

https://files.catbox.moe/o3pqpw.PNG

Books don't make sense for a learned academic...?

And also for the continued Scholar obsession that you've made your signature:



Scholar never had any of Summoner's DPS kit, they shared (and still share) a base class in Arcanist, of which Scholar retains everything from except Miasma, Miasma II, Shadow Flare and Bane. (Summoner doesn't have any of these anymore either.) It still has Aetherflow, Bio, Bio II, Ruin, Ruin II, Physick, Resurrection and Energy Drain from the old Arcanist kit. Scholar never had things like Fester, Summon Ifrit or Dreadwyrm Trance. Scholar sharing a base class with Summoner in Arcanist also doesn't change Sage being a Scholar clone, so it's a completely random thing to point out and isn't the "gotcha" you think it is.

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If you knew what it mean, you wouldnt have to use google to help you so apparently you dont know what it mean either. Sch was a clone from arcanist at one point, cause it had some of the kit so clone is clone.

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Originally Posted by IceBlueNinja

If you knew what it mean, you wouldnt have to use google to help you so apparently you dont know what it means,

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Yeah dude, showing you that you have no idea what you're talking about by showing the definition of a word means that I didn't know what it means... ? I was using Google to help you lil bro, you made the claim that "books make no sense" on Scholar because you have zero clue what the word "scholar" means.

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besides you and that fuminating it gets so tiresome hearing yall annoying repetitiveness about sage being sch clone , ast is a clone too of whm and was a clone too of sch/whm when it had dual stance, we get it yall love yall precious sch mains but for god sake just leave the ones who like sage alone , its not going anywhere so deal with it. When I say copy am not even talking about the summons, but both it and smn had things from arcanist branch. You lvl smn/sch or and the other auto lvls without you having to lvl them, that show how poor skill designed that was. Every other job had no branching things and had to be lvled by themselves.

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It is a Scholar clone; I don't know why that makes you so mad nor do I care, but it is a matter of fact that SGE is a SCH clone. I don't care about AST being a clone of WHM and SGE being a SCH clone does not stop you from liking it, you freak out at every little mention of Scholar, and of course Scholar is going to be mentioned when talking about SGE because SE made the distinction of "barrier healers" and "pure healers", so SCH is the comparison. You've also edited your post like 3 times now because you're seething so hard, calm down.

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Sch was a clone from arcanist at one point, cause it had some of the kit so clone is clone.

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You have absolutely no clue what you're talking about LMAO

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Originally Posted by Nizzi

Yeah dude, showing you that you have no idea what you're talking about by showing the definition of a word means that I didn't know what it means... ? I was using Google to help you lil bro, you made the claim that "books make no sense" on Scholar because you have zero clue what the word "scholar" means.



It is a Scholar clone; I don't know why that makes you so mad nor do I care, but it is a matter of fact that SGE is a SCH clone. I don't care about AST being a clone of WHM and SGE being a SCH clone does not stop you from liking it, you freak out at every little mention of Scholar, and of course Scholar is going to be mentioned when talking about SGE because SE made the distinction of "barrier healers" and "pure healers", so SCH is the comparison. You've also edited your post like 3 times now because you're seething so hard, calm down.



You have absolutely no clue what you're talking about LMAO

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your the one that sound angry am quite fine, I do not need your help on how to google something, so its more like your being rude and insulting people knowledge without even knowing a person. Your really one instigator lol, and dont call me lil bro am quite grown tyvm. You have so much time on your hands that you copy and paste everything a person say so that you can use that back against them editing? Talk about get a life.

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Originally Posted by IceBlueNinja

your the one that sound angry am quite fine, I do not need your help on how to google something, so its more like your being rude and insulting people knowledge without even knowing a person. Your really one instigator lol, and dont call me lil bro am quite grown tyvm. You have so much time on your hands that you copy and paste everything a person say so that you can use that back against them editing? Talk about get a life.

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I hit the "reply with quote" button baby bro and it saved what you wrote, it's not rocket science. You don't sound fine at all when you act like a child every time Scholar is mentioned. You okay?

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Originally Posted by Nizzi

I hit the "reply with quote" button baby bro and it saved what you wrote, it's not rocket science. You don't sound fine at all when you act like a child every time Scholar is mentioned. You okay?

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you are a child, your playing a lalafell and one more time stop calling me lil bro , also go on my ignore list you may now continue to make wortheless replies.

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Originally Posted by IceBlueNinja

you are a child, your playing a lalafell and one more time stop calling me lil bro , also go on my ignore list you may now continue to make wortheless replies.

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I am playing a lalafell my son, astute observation! I accept your concession.

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Originally Posted by IceBlueNinja

If you knew what it mean, you wouldnt have to use google to help you so apparently you dont know what it mean either. Sch was a clone from arcanist at one point, cause it had some of the kit so clone is clone.

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They knew what it meant, they put the picture as evidence that corroborates what they are saying. Don't be obtuse just for the sake of it, it makes you look petty (changing your signature after getting called out for it is also pretty petty btw)

As for SCH/SMN, 95% of the things in game point to SMN being the one that should have been standalone, and ACN reworked to be the base form of SCH. SCH and ACN jobquests take place in Limsa, SMN randomly shunts you off to Gridania. SCH and ACN are
both based on the idea of 'use logic, facts, reasoning etc to create a battle strategy that can turn the tide of even the most hopeless encounter', the prerequisite for being a SMN in lore is 'be present at the death of a primal and absorb some of it's aether'. Technically, everyone in Eorzea is capable of this due to Bahamut's aether raining across the entire continent when he blew up. But the SMN NPCs we meet in the 60-70 questline (Immortal Flames who were at Ifrit's death), to my knowledge, have little to no training in Arcanima, yet they can create Egis too.

They've reworked ACN to fit with SMN's gameplay more now and that's fine, but the only sign originally that pointed to the idea that 'if they were going to make ACN more like one than the other, it should be SMN', was that ACN was a DPS.

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Originally Posted by IceBlueNinja

Sch was a clone from arcanist at one point, cause it had some of the kit so clone is clone.

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Dude stop I can't breathe this is too funny, 'Job is clone of {job's base class}' what a take. In case you were being sarcastic though, here's a picture I knocked up several months ago illustrating the learn levels of certain skills for SCH and SGE, and what the skill does. Notice how so many of them line up in their function, like how Dawn and Physis are both 'aoe regen, 60s CD' or level 74 gives you 'button on 90s CD that gives you one use of gauge spender for free'? That is why people say SGE is a SCH clone. Hell, the shielding potency of Eukrasian Diag/Prog is the same strength as Adlo/Succor respectively, the only difference is the base heal is weaker (because SGE has access to non-Eukrasian variants). But the maths works out that the shields are identical strength.

https://i.imgur.com/ziVcye6.png

edit: oh wow I didn't realize what a minefield this thread became while I wasn't looking jesus christ

Hmm, if we’re going that logic of having a title of something-healer is a clone……nah, that dumb to even consider that thought.