Easier? Dancer vs Summoner Debate

I find Dancer to be easier, it's like playing Simon Says.

Plus, it doesn't have pet management, lacks mp, and doesn't have to stand in one spot to cast anything.

it has been more than a year now that the smn no longer has to manage the pet and it has practically no longer had a cast for two years (now every minute the smn at 90 has only 7 seconds of cast, the same as a sam). The rotation of the dnc isn't operationally intricate but it offers margins for optimizations, margins that the smn doesn't have because you just have to press all the buttons when they light up, also disregarding CDs that are all one-minute long

They’re both equal to me in difficulty, personally. Dancer’s optimisation is only really Fan Dance usage to avoid overcapping, hitting Sabre at around 70 and doing the same 120 sec buff rotation as every other job in existence.


Summoner’s optimisation I guess is Egi summon order, plus maybe where to put Swiftcast (Ifrit or Garuda phase lol). And of course it still has the ‘press this buff button every 120 seconds’ like every job lol.

Personally, I’d say part of optimising any job is being able to properly make use of your support skills.

Summoner has things like Rekindle, Addle, Radiant Aegis, Raise and Everlasting Fight. I’d say getting the most of out of them is as important as getting the most out of your other abilities, especially since every one of them is free except Raise.

Dancer of course has some of the most useful support there is and the same applies to them. Making good use of Shield Samba, Curing Waltz and Improvisation is just as important as making good use of damage.

I’m not saying Summoner (or Dancer) is some difficult thing with all these optimisations. They’re all generally very quick to solve with simple solutions. But I don’t think Dancer is significantly harder to optimise personally.

That said, the easiest job in the game to me by a large margin is still Bard, followed closely by Scholar. But then, the two jobs I have most experience with (since 1.0 / 2.0 lol) are…Bard and Scholar. I feel like whatever players find ‘easiest’ to optimise is always going to be skewed by personal preference and just general experience with the class

The thing about DNC there's more nuance to your gameplay, particularly with your burst window. Not every burst window looks the same. You're generating a lot of different resources for different actions, and also trying to avoid drifting your standard step unless otherwise necessary. Sometimes you have to delay it a GCD because you're generating so much esprit so quickly, and it's better to drift standard than potentially lose a lot of esprit due to overcapping. There are opener windows where I generate 50/60/70 esprit in the 3 GCDs it takes to perform standard step. Other times I only generate 10. None of this is hard, but it requires you be very aware of all your resources and procs, something that SMN doesn't really ask for.

They are both extremely easy with the difference that the dancer has no cast and no obligatory gapcloser in his rotation and more resource management than the summoner, only 2 etherflow per minute for the summoner ...

DNC has a burst rng priority to its tools, which SMN can't really claim to have. But I'll grant you that it's nowhere near BRD's in comparison that has a lot more going on there.

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Originally Posted by MahthildisMMORPG

I find Dancer to be easier, it's like playing Simon Says.

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So is Summoner, only less often and usually in the same order.

I find dancer much more difficult because of proc overload at times
summoner is the easiest job in the game by a mile

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Originally Posted by MahthildisMMORPG

I find Dancer to be easier, it's like playing Simon Says.

Plus, it doesn't have pet management, lacks mp, and doesn't have to stand in one spot to cast anything.

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Problem is you're going up against a forum meme with a lot of inertia.

There are jobs with rotations that have no need to rearrange depending on movement requirements, no need to cast, and no need to melee. Aside from Dancer, MCH is another good one. It's the original "one button DPS" because its rotation is completely static. Same sequence over and over and over again. And then even within casters, RDM was the original "easy" caster and still isn't exactly challenging.

However, the crowd that's bitter over old SMN cannot be reasoned with. They will continue to declare it "easiest job" or a few other putdowns as an expression of their unhappiness about losing the old version.

Oh god Summoner way easier Its literally dub the 1 minute rotation for a good reason. If you time it right all your moves should sync up perfectly. The problem with dancer is that your constantly rolling the dice to see if moves proc. If moves didn't have that. Dancer would be just as easy and always reliable with its damage output. In this debate of which is easier gotta be Summoner hands down.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

They will continue to declare it "easiest job" or a few other putdowns as an expression of their unhappiness about losing the old version.

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You lack any evidence to dispute summoner being the easiest, so you instead try and pass it off as simply bitterness? It may be reviled, but the displeasure has a solid foundation.

Me messing up my flourish window VS if i forgot to summon the knock off blue eevee.
Dancer is all about lining up timers and abit of RNG to get its Higher pot combo's if you miss timer windows the class gets clunky and you ever had good RNG where it just spits feathers at you good for POT but can throw you off.
Summoner is about actively going through two phases and summoning sets of abilities without a RNG factor to its higher damaged skills but you do have cast times but it has a set rotation and flow, which dancer doesn't have because of RNG (if we count the emerald and topaz phases as cast times i guess).
for newer players instead of one job recommend i just offer the easier in each category

Summoner is popular as it is a great class to begin with.

Both 2 different play styles and shouldn't be compared against each other in general tbh.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

Problem is you're going up against a forum meme with a lot of inertia.

There are jobs with rotations that have no need to rearrange depending on movement requirements, no need to cast, and no need to melee. Aside from Dancer, MCH is another good one. It's the original "one button DPS" because its rotation is completely static. Same sequence over and over and over again. And then even within casters, RDM was the original "easy" caster and still isn't exactly challenging.

However, the crowd that's bitter over old SMN cannot be reasoned with. They will continue to declare it "easiest job" or a few other putdowns as an expression of their unhappiness about losing the old version.

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This is basically the answer. No amount of argument or reasoning can convince such people otherwise, so it's kind of a lost cause, but you (and OP) are entirely correct.

DNC and SMN are comparable in difficulty, and DNC was considered the easiest Job in ShB and would be in EW if SMN hadn't been changed. As it is, they're more or less two flavors of the same difficulty level, but because it's "hip" to meme on and attack New SMN, people will tell you that DNC is a challenge of optimization and skill that it isn't just to avoid admitting SMN isn't somehow completely out of place in the game.

What makes a job/class easy:

1) Have few abilites
2) Short but few cds.
3) Rotation that dosnt change much and is repeated.
4) NO RNG

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

Problem is you're going up against a forum meme with a lot of inertia.

There are jobs with rotations that have no need to rearrange depending on movement requirements, no need to cast, and no need to melee. Aside from Dancer, MCH is another good one. It's the original "one button DPS" because its rotation is completely static. Same sequence over and over and over again. And then even within casters, RDM was the original "easy" caster and still isn't exactly challenging.

However, the crowd that's bitter over old SMN cannot be reasoned with. They will continue to declare it "easiest job" or a few other putdowns as an expression of their unhappiness about losing the old version.

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Beg your pardon? DNC, no need to rearrange, completely static rotation? No procs, no rng?

And even while I'd agree with MCH with the theoretically completely static rotation, you'll still have to rearrange depending on downtime, which is NOT the case for 6.0 SMN.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

DNC and SMN are comparable in difficulty, and DNC was considered the easiest Job in ShB and would be in EW if SMN hadn't been changed. As it is, they're more or less two flavors of the same difficulty level, but because it's "hip" to meme on and attack New SMN, people will tell you that DNC is a challenge of optimization and skill that it isn't just to avoid admitting SMN isn't somehow completely out of place in the game.

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Yeah, considered the easiest job in SHB probably by clueless players that kept overwriting procs and drifting steps like there was no tomorrow... *sigh*

On the other hand though, current DNC in the context of ShB would definitely easily fall into "easiest" because of the disappearance of those constraints. Except now it's facing new SMN, that can't even claim to deal with RNG or charge spooling for burst, kek

Smn is easier; untill your progging and can't move due to an RNG mechanic overlapping with Ifrit hardcast phase.., or your forced to break your melee combo, cause you cant / shouldnt dash

RNG makes Blm easier..., more procs

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Originally Posted by Shiroe

RNG makes Blm easier..., more procs

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because you don't count on the procs, unless you force them

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Originally Posted by Shiroe

Smn is easier; untill your progging and can't move due to an RNG mechanic overlapping with Ifrit hardcast phase.., or your forced to break your melee combo, cause you cant / shouldnt dash

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problem solved after the second attempt.

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Originally Posted by Valence

Beg your pardon? DNC, no need to rearrange, completely static rotation? No procs, no rng?

And even while I'd agree with MCH with the theoretically completely static rotation, you'll still have to rearrange depending on downtime, which is NOT the case for 6.0 SMN.

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Please read more carefully. I was talking about MCH's rotation being static, not DNC.

DNC is simple, though it is proc based but still much easier to optimize than, say, BRD. But DNC also has no cast times and no melee attacks, making it easier - especially in raid situations and for new players. No need to plan around boss mechanics. In this MCH and DNC are the same so it's... do you want to push procs, or do you want a completely static sequence of buttons? MCH offers the latter for those that want something easily accomplished through pure rote/muscle memory. DNC's procs are not challenging in the slightest, but it does require some brain engagement - just not for movement and melee planning, because DNC still has none of that.

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But, as I said. I understand most of these people can't be reasoned with. They want to hate on SMN and the main way to do so is to declare to everyone that it's the easiest job. It's just a bit harmful to new players, to recommend something with movement restrictions (especially while leveling) to people wanting a more casual experience.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

But, as I said. I understand most of these people can't be reasoned with. They want to hate on SMN and the main way to do so is to declare to everyone that it's the easiest job. It's just a bit harmful to new players, to recommend something with movement restrictions (especially while leveling) to people wanting a more casual experience.

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You are right but for the simple fact that before 70 smn is a caster.
But I think the post was born taking into consideration that the two jobs were 90, also because the dnc cannot be played by someone who starts playing.
Furthermore, the post was born by making assumptions that are no longer true: the smn no longer has to manage the pet, the smn no longer has to manage the mana (except if he dies or if he has to ress more people), the smn no longer has to manage consistently casts, the smn no longer has to manage anything.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

Please read more carefully. I was talking about MCH's rotation being static, not DNC.

DNC is simple, though it is proc based but still much easier to optimize than, say, BRD. But DNC also has no cast times and no melee attacks, making it easier - especially in raid situations and for new players. No need to plan around boss mechanics. In this MCH and DNC are the same so it's... do you want to push procs, or do you want a completely static sequence of buttons? MCH offers the latter for those that want something easily accomplished through pure rote/muscle memory. DNC's procs are not challenging in the slightest, but it does require some brain engagement - just not for movement and melee planning, because DNC still has none of that.

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But, as I said. I understand most of these people can't be reasoned with. They want to hate on SMN and the main way to do so is to declare to everyone that it's the easiest job. It's just a bit harmful to new players, to recommend something with movement restrictions (especially while leveling) to people wanting a more casual experience.

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I am re-reading carefully, and while this is not my native language, I have a hard time seeing how obviously the "aside from DNC" necessarily swings more in an "as opposed to" way than in an "next to" way, the latter being the one I understood from context. Apologies if it was the other.

Still having problems understanding how the couple of cast times are even a problem (especially with swiftcast), more than iajutsu is supposedly a problem on Samurai tbh. Because the cast time is longer, even though there is a lot less of them? Okay.

I do believe a better metric rather than just "difficulty" would be intricacies and rotational depth, which it has none, where DNC still retains at least a little.

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Originally Posted by Ggwppino

problem solved after the second attempt.

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untill, you either realise, it makes a mechanic later down the line not add up with your movement.., or a new RNG mechanic bites you

on normal / easy content, Smn really is braindead ..,but that changes in hard content, shuffling primals & skills, holding out burst, using SC etc.

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Originally Posted by Shiroe

on normal / easy content, Smn really is braindead ..,but that changes in hard content, shuffling primals & skills, holding out burst, using SC etc.

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Funny thing is, this is true on most Jobs. No one needs a Savage opener, reopener, and optimal play to run...Crystal Tower.

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Originally Posted by Shiroe

on normal / easy content, Smn really is braindead ..,but that changes in hard content, shuffling primals & skills, holding out burst, using SC etc.

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in hard content it's even easier! In casual the smn could be interesting because you have people who don't do a certain amount of damage or the bosses aren't walking timers. In high-level content you know perfectly well that at minute x does this mechanic, there is no boss that does not have this feature. While it might vary (think p8s p1 dog-snake) the mechanic is so slow and well-named that it gives you a chance to even make yourself coffee before the mechanic actually starts.
the problem that the smn has, the DNC also has, furthermore the DNC, if the buffs have to be postponed, must think 4 gcd before to be able to drop its buff perfectly (because unlike the smn, which has an instantaneous buff that lasts half a minute, the dnc must first perform all the technical steps to have a technical finish).

Dancer is inherently more mechanically complex than Summoner. You have greater responsibilities with Devilment, Curing Waltz, the interrupt and making sure to not drift the steps.

On the other hand, summoner can be reduced to a single button macro and still parse purple. https://youtu.be/BId-R_GKsNc

We can also ask, which would you prefer: a 25% bottom percentile Summoner or a 25% bottom percentile Dancer?

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Originally Posted by WhimsicalPacifist

On the other hand, summoner can be reduced to a single button macro and still parse purple. https://youtu.be/BId-R_GKsNc

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I think this concept is quite ungenerous. The fact that the combo can be done with a single button is due to the sole fact that it is a rotation without a proc. If a class doesn't have procs, then it can hypothetically have one-button rotation, whatever class it is. hypothetically a drg could also have one-button rotation, but it still has a respectable and highly optimizable rotation. (currently, because SQE could make another victim)

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Originally Posted by WhimsicalPacifist

Dancer is inherently more mechanically complex than Summoner. You have greater responsibilities with Devilment, Curing Waltz, the interrupt and making sure to not drift the steps.

On the other hand, summoner can be reduced to a single button macro and still parse purple. https://youtu.be/BId-R_GKsNc

We can also ask, which would you prefer: a 25% bottom percentile Summoner or a 25% bottom percentile Dancer?

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take any non proc class, throw in a macro at the start of a reset, and youll get a gud parse on easy content (that was normal mode, not savage..)

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Originally Posted by Shiroe

take any non proc class, throw in a macro at the start of a reset, and youll get a gud parse on easy content (that was normal mode, not savage..)

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*start of reset (logs reset)..
... that said, macros might be more consistent at pressing buttons than players lol.., still doubt trying this not on a "logs reset" with OP gear, will bring the same conclusion

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Originally Posted by Ggwppino

I think this concept is quite ungenerous. The fact that the combo can be done with a single button is due to the sole fact that it is a rotation without a proc. If a class doesn't have procs, then it can hypothetically have one-button rotation, whatever class it is. hypothetically a drg could also have one-button rotation, but it still has a respectable and highly optimizable rotation. (currently, because SQE could make another victim)

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If you could have any number of lines (instead of 15 as we're limited to), ie we're using a 3rd party macro writing software, you absolutely could have a macro that autoplays DNC for most of it's gameplay. Just throw a line saying /ac Bloodshower and /ac Fountainfall before every non-proc GCD to force it to 'try' to spend the procs, and if they aren't available it'll skip over them. The only part the macro couldn't do is the dances, since they're complete RNG, you'd have to do every step four times to make sure Tech was fully powered up (16 steps instead of 4 if you're a human and playing the game normally)

BRD though, 100% you could macro that because even if it procs, it's always the same reaction you take as a player: use bloodletter to not cap, use Pitch Perfect when you get it. Thinking about it I reckon the only class where you couldn't macro it to a high degree of efficiency like a TAS (using infinite-length macro software) would be DNC because of it's dances. Everything else would be pretty simple to make a TAS of. Even RDM, I think, now that you have to be actually trying to get imbalanced mana

In normal/easy content, any class is braindead. There is no damage requirement and you can just stay on the floor and nobody will bet an eye. You easily outperform most of duty finder by just staying alive and pressing some button.

In hard content? You know exactly when something shows up. Most classes have more to worry about than SMN. MNK maintaining optimal drift, SAM casting more things than SMN has to as melee, BLM turreting, MCH trying to put on carpal tunnel gloves. You get to keep your gems after death and get your burst ready at the 60s mark again anyways, but RDM loses their 2 minutes of gauge setup and will never be able to recover. You can figure out the entire P8S timeline in 2 pulls, assuming you know the fight. "finishing Garuda early to rush primal summon casts before phase change" is not a deep optimization, since adapting to timelines exist for literally every other class.

You use swiftcast on CD for damage, or save it for raise. What's the skill in 1 button that exists to make your life easier? When, in this tier, does a SMN actually hold out burst?

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

If you could have any number of lines (instead of 15 as we're limited to), ie we're using a 3rd party macro writing software, you absolutely could have a macro that autoplays DNC for most of it's gameplay. Just throw a line saying /ac Bloodshower and /ac Fountainfall before every non-proc GCD to force it to 'try' to spend the procs, and if they aren't available it'll skip over them. The only part the macro couldn't do is the dances, since they're complete RNG, you'd have to do every step four times to make sure Tech was fully powered up (16 steps instead of 4 if you're a human and playing the game normally)

BRD though, 100% you could macro that because even if it procs, it's always the same reaction you take as a player: use bloodletter to not cap, use Pitch Perfect when you get it. Thinking about it I reckon the only class where you couldn't macro it to a high degree of efficiency like a TAS (using infinite-length macro software) would be DNC because of it's dances. Everything else would be pretty simple to make a TAS of. Even RDM, I think, now that you have to be actually trying to get imbalanced mana

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Actually the video show the single button combo with the game macro system (so with delay caused by not optimal use of queue system). With a 3rd party tools i think it possibile also attack without press any button for each class
Anyway, I dont want to say that smn is difficult (you can read my first post, second post in this thread), i mean that I don't find the observation of the single button combo correct, because it is a concept that can very well be attributed to any other no proc class, even much more operationally complex than the smn

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

If you could have any number of lines (instead of 15 as we're limited to), ie we're using a 3rd party macro writing software, you absolutely could have a macro that autoplays DNC for most of it's gameplay. Just throw a line saying /ac Bloodshower and /ac Fountainfall before every non-proc GCD to force it to 'try' to spend the procs, and if they aren't available it'll skip over them. The only part the macro couldn't do is the dances, since they're complete RNG, you'd have to do every step four times to make sure Tech was fully powered up (16 steps instead of 4 if you're a human and playing the game normally)

BRD though, 100% you could macro that because even if it procs, it's always the same reaction you take as a player: use bloodletter to not cap, use Pitch Perfect when you get it. Thinking about it I reckon the only class where you couldn't macro it to a high degree of efficiency like a TAS (using infinite-length macro software) would be DNC because of it's dances. Everything else would be pretty simple to make a TAS of. Even RDM, I think, now that you have to be actually trying to get imbalanced mana

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A DNC macro wouldn't be able to spool up feather procs into burst phases, as well as knowing when to use Sabre Dance/gauge. A DNC macro wouldn't be able to deal with the little priority the job still has remaining during its burst (notably when to dance, or when to delay dances and how to manage gauge overcap).

A BRD macro wouldn't be able to deal with Pitch Perfect optimization, and even more so than DNC, would be totally left dumbfounded with every burst priority system. It would also be totally unable to deal with Apex use.

I don't know what is TAS though, is this third party software?

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Originally Posted by Ggwppino

it has been more than a year now that the smn no longer has to manage the pet and it has practically no longer had a cast for two years (now every minute the smn at 90 has only 7 seconds of cast, the same as a sam). The rotation of the dnc isn't operationally intricate but it offers margins for optimizations, margins that the smn doesn't have because you just have to press all the buttons when they light up, also disregarding CDs that are all one-minute long

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I'm a little late to this but SMN hasn't had pet management way longer than that. Ever since they became invincible there hasn't been management with them, they were simply things that the you used skills through by proxy, with some janky lag.

It's because your take is blatantly ridiculous. Why is any movement restriction immediately bad for new players? SMN's core rotation barely changes after they get all their gem summons at around 50. Every button you get is mandatory for you to press before you move to the next summon. The existence of movement restrictions, whether range or cast time, applies to the majority of classes and does NOT make SMN unique. Most of the movement restrictions on new SMN have been removed anyways compared to ShB (which was also NOT hard at all to learn). If you want to play CASTER, you better learn how CASTING works!

This game already does not leave any difficulty for casual players, you can press a single button the whole time, sit on the floor, be dead, whatever. There is no DPS check until savage. You are not even required to learn your class to basic competency until maybe extremes. If you crave a "casual experience" you can just auto-attack, people can't flame you anyways per ToS. SMN has 4 hard-casted spells every minute, and with swiftcast you can make that 3. People want to hate on SMN because actually does not have enough casts to even deserve to be called a caster, let alone outperform red mage in high-end raids.

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Originally Posted by SieyaM

I'm a little late to this but SMN hasn't had pet management way longer than that. Ever since they became invincible there hasn't been management with them, they were simply things that the you used skills through by proxy, with some janky lag.

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You are right, i meant when sc was removed from the pet (for good cause), sqe definitively removed the management of the pet. SC was an excuse to move the pet to a strategic position during the general rotation that the smn has. Personally I sincerely hope that the Devs and designers have really understood why it was necessary in this expansion to remove SC from the carbuncle and are working on it. (sc's problem is not because it was on the pet, but because the pet keeps disappearing)

Smn is easier and it's not even close.

Both are incredibly easy

SMN literally has no real rotation and is ridiculously straightforward. At most you need to weave a skill and plan around your ifrit mode due to longer cast-times/melee skills and garudas slipstream. Which is nothing compared to most classes.

DNC also has no real rotation and may have RNG but that is no solid reason to call them more difficult. A skill lightens up? Great, use it! Skill doesn't light up? Just press the one you just used. Oh you capped your feathers? Use one! Your gauge is getting full? Use a saber dance.

The only reason one could argue DNC might be more "difficult" than SMN is cause it needs to press 5 more buttons in the opener/burst window compared to SMN but that is a joke of a reason to say it has more complexity - if anything I'd say planning SMN ifrit mode correctly is harder but considering that mode has only 2 buttons to press, I still laugh if anyone tries to make me believe that holds complexity as well.

Both classes do nothing but pressing the same 1-4 buttons until the next burst and have high movement. Fun classes though, but doesn't take much skill to play.