Ban Dragoon and DRK from Frontline or At least Nerf Drg's LB

I'd rather deal with Paladin's Cover than this cheap abuse of using countdown to land everything at the same time and delete the other teams.

Regardless whether I'm with the GC that abuse this cheap trick or against them, both experience are awful and upsetting so many people that participate in this mode.

Frontlines have been quite bland ever since they introduced those dmg modifiers. The current meta is so boring, I even preferred a flock of bahamut swarming the place more than what we have now. At least you weren't hitting hp sponges and trying to pick off a stray ranged.

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Originally Posted by Dionysius

I'd rather deal with Paladin's Cover than this cheap abuse of using countdown to land everything at the same time and delete the other teams.

Regardless whether I'm with the GC that abuse this cheap trick or against them, both experience are awful and upsetting so many people that participate in this mode.

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You can nerf Dragoon's damage yourself!

Option 1: Use shield - heavily reduces damage!
Option 2: Don't get hit - 100% dmg reduction!

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Originally Posted by Nikoto

You can nerf Dragoon's damage yourself!

Option 1: Use shield - heavily reduces damage!
Option 2: Don't get hit - 100% dmg reduction!

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Oh shit why didn't I think of that, damn I must be dumb.
How about Option 3: Just be quiet if you have nothing better to say or you have no idea what you're talking about.

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Originally Posted by Nikoto

You can nerf Dragoon's damage yourself!

Option 1: Use shield - heavily reduces damage!
Option 2: Don't get hit - 100% dmg reduction!

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OP its getting rekt because he is fighting "premades" where a DRk+2-3 Drgs play together and combo ult an entire alliance on tight spots.

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Originally Posted by AnnRam

OP its getting rekt because he is fighting "premades" where a DRk+2-3 Drgs play together and combo ult an entire alliance on tight spots.

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It was worse than that, 3-4 DRKS with 5 other tanks and 7 DRGs with 15+ kills. Whole 24 group with BH5.
They just need to queue at the same time for a chance to join same GC which entirely problem on it's own.

This is not skill issue, this is messed up balance problem.
They nerfed SMN when they got too OP.
For comparison SMN only deal 18,000 and DRG 30,000. On top of that SMN only get -30% dmg taken while DRG -60%.
This dmg taken for DRG is also another problem. It's a range job that advertised as melee. They just wait for LB and never engage in melee combat.

Add another 50% from BH5, they easily wiped both GCs with 45,000 dmg just from 1 DRG.

Anyway even if they were to come up with something, it will take 7 months to do it (PLD Cover).
Please do better sqex.

problem isnt dragoon in FL its the 90% damage reduction crap on all melee. takes forever to kill anyone and FL zergs just duke it out for decades unless theres a little 4 man on comms together trying to wipe people with LBs. should be tanks only for damage reduction. melee DPS should take more damage. but not as much as ranged.

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Originally Posted by anna-steele

melee DPS should take more damage. but not as much as ranged.

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That'd make Sky Shatter even stronger to just wiped out everyone no?

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Originally Posted by Dionysius

That'd make Sky Shatter even stronger to just wiped out everyone no?

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maybe other abilities could wipe people out too if people actually took damage, instead of waiting for only DRG / DRK nukes to clear a team out.

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Originally Posted by anna-steele

maybe other abilities could wipe people out too if people actually took damage, instead of waiting for only DRG / DRK nukes to clear a team out.

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Which job can deal the same amount of dmg as Sky Shatter in 10 yalm radius? While immune to any CC/dmg in the air for guarantee hit.
Again idk why you think DRG is not OP if you look at the numbers I post above, there is no other jobs can come close to it's damage. That's almost 50% more than other jobs like SMN/WHM.

Where do you draw the line? Every job can be stacked and then use their hardest hitting skills at the same time to wipe people :p That is literally how PvP especially Feast was played

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Originally Posted by Dionysius

Which job can deal the same amount of dmg as Sky Shatter in 10 yalm radius? While immune to any CC/dmg in the air for guarantee hit.
Again idk why you think DRG is not OP if you look at the numbers I post above, there is no other jobs can come close to it's damage. That's almost 50% more than other jobs like SMN/WHM.

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those numbers require BH5. any AOE bomb LB is going to destroy people with BH5.

Sometimes you get seal team six sometimes you get bench warmers. That's just the nature of random pvp which is all we have unless we form our own party in FL and even then it can be countered by coordination. If you don't like the flavor of the food say so and leave, or put some hot sauce on it and shovel it in.

Asking for anything to be balanced in a 72 player mode is comical.

I think we should nerf Guard in Frontlines or ban it from being used. It's so unfair that those poor DRGs put so much effort into co-ordinating their LBs, only for their targets to counter the entire play with one single button that gives a ridiculous 90% damage reduction. /s

Holyshit not even one person here commenting know what're talking about or even do FL themselves and yet show up for sarcasm, troll, or whatever.
Asking for balance in a PVP is comical? lmao

Some can't even comprehend 30.000 is almost twice stronger than 18.000, but it's BH5 my ass, it's not.
No wonder the game keeps getting easier and easier to catter for these people.

Not gonna be sarcastic or anything here, I'll take you at face value and explain why I don't think it should be nerfed, as someone who plays FL pretty regularly.

Unlike, say, Ninja's LB where, so long as they're in the middle of a fight with a bunch of people dying, where they can instakill over and over and over, DRGs LB is a single, one shot, shoot-it-then-loose-it k/o. If you see the circle, you have time to pop guard and run away. You're not stuck in place, and if you are you can pop cleanse then guard, because the LB is so dang *visual*.

DRK on the other hand, I can't say anything for because I don't really remember DRKs in my FLs.

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Originally Posted by MilkieTea

Not gonna be sarcastic or anything here, I'll take you at face value and explain why I don't think it should be nerfed, as someone who plays FL pretty regularly.

Unlike, say, Ninja's LB where, so long as they're in the middle of a fight with a bunch of people dying, where they can instakill over and over and over, DRGs LB is a single, one shot, shoot-it-then-loose-it k/o. If you see the circle, you have time to pop guard and run away. You're not stuck in place, and if you are you can pop cleanse then guard, because the LB is so dang *visual*.

DRK on the other hand, I can't say anything for because I don't really remember DRKs in my FLs.

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If you don't remember any DRK in your FLs then this is not an issue in your region, but this is definitely a big issue in my Data Centre where 2-3 DRKs + 5-6 DRGs can dominate against 48 players from both GC.
I understand you never met group that coordinate DRK+DRG easily to win against 2 other GCs, but doesn't mean this is not a problem.
This is not a," 5 vs 5, there are 2 DRGs using LB oh let's Guard and then run" problem.

My last statement for those still don't understand the problem:
- For comparison SMN/WHM only deal 18,000 (before -10% from Job nerf) and DRG 30,000 (without BH). On top of that SMN only get -30% dmg taken while DRG -60%.
- They easily accumulate BH5 because DRG is range job advertised as melee in FL, high survivability. They just wait for LB and never engage in melee combat.
- Add another 50% from BH5, they easily wiped both GCs with 45,000 dmg just from 1 DRG.

Again, this combination make DRK and DRG an easy way for a group to cheese their way for a win and it's not fun meeting them.
Even if I joined their group, it feels cheap and unbalanced to just "destroy" everyone.
Go ahead next time you run FL and arrange a DRK+DRG party and cheese your way to get an easy win at the expense of 48 others frustration. Then come back and tell me it's "fun" don't need to nerf them.

They nerfed SMN and WHM early on when there are many people trying the new mode.
But less people are doing it now so they ignore the new problem, doesn't mean they shouldn't try to balance it.

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Originally Posted by Dionysius

No wonder the game keeps getting easier and easier to catter for these people.

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you are crying for a nerf for something you can counter with one button

next time you see 5-6 DRGs jump into the air for their lb, press the funny 90% mit button and see if you're still standing or not

please think more about what you can do to prevent getting owned by a play that requires that much co-ordination instead of demanding a nerf

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Originally Posted by Naizakane

you are crying for a nerf for something you can counter with one button

next time you see 5-6 DRGs jump into the air for their lb, press the funny 90% mit button and see if you're still standing or not

please think more about what you can do to prevent getting owned by a play that requires that much co-ordination instead of demanding a nerf

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Player like you that place Guard at such high place clearly don't even touch FL and yet have the audacity to come here and making fun of others.
Guard is useless when you have so many others jobs that can disable it at wide range with a single button, bruh...
You went over your head thinking you're smarter than others just because you have the knowledge of Guard -90% dmg taken, lmao.. what a joke.

Disclaimer before more people coming and tell me "use Guard" and stop crying.

https://i.imgur.com/LJheBpD.png

I have 1832 FL runs in a span of 7 years, I know there are other people with much higher count, I just put it out here so people won't think I don't know what I'm talking about.

I don't have to be a genius to be able to tell something is wrong with the balance, when 24 can easily win 48 simply by brute force their way.
The whole point of FL is 1v1v1 not 1v2.

Pre 6.x FL is more fun than the one we have now, but I know they're gone forever. At the very least I want to try enjoy the one we have now.

But since 6.x FL begins, there are holes everywhere that Sqex are too lazy to fix until 7 months later (yeah you PLD, but now I think about it dealing with PLD are more fun than the shit we have now).

I'm still having fun with the mode, for now, but with the new Series, more people coming back to FL and the exploit become more blatantly often, why not just fix it if a lot of people are enjoying your contents.
That's the reason of this post.

I still don't get how premades doing team work and timing things together is exploiting? Do they all have to time their LB's 1 at a time so people have time to heal in between?

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Originally Posted by Nanne

I still don't get how premades doing team work and timing things together is exploiting? Do they all have to time their LB's 1 at a time so people have time to heal in between?

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yes, and if op asks nicely they also have to stop attacking so op has time to use the elixir

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Originally Posted by Nanne

I still don't get how premades doing team work and timing things together is exploiting? Do they all have to time their LB's 1 at a time so people have time to heal in between?

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Why do you think they nerfed SMN and WHM with -10% dmg overall? Why do you think they had to make adjustment across all jobs? The balance is off, it's simple as that.
What's wrong with balancing jobs in PVP?

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Originally Posted by Naizakane

yes, and if op asks nicely they also have to stop attacking so op has time to use the elixir

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Fuck off if you're here just to mocking people. People like you are disgusting.
/mute

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Originally Posted by Dionysius

Why do you think they nerfed SMN and WHM with -10% dmg overall? Why do you think they had to make adjustment across all jobs? The balance is off, it's simple as that.
What's wrong with balancing jobs in PVP?

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Because they were absolutely busted without needing coordination, I imagine. You're asking for legitimate strategy to be banned.

I don't think anyone here thinks Frontline is balanced, but this isn't the problem with it.

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Originally Posted by Dionysius

If you don't remember any DRK in your FLs then this is not an issue in your region, but this is definitely a big issue in my Data Centre where 2-3 DRKs + 5-6 DRGs can dominate against 48 players from both GC.

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Bro I guarantee you, if the west had the culture of following the leader and their burst macros the same people shitting on you right now would actually agree with you. lmao

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Originally Posted by Dionysius

Holyshit not even one person here commenting know what're talking about or even do FL themselves and yet show up for sarcasm, troll, or whatever.
Asking for balance in a PVP is comical? lmao

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Stating a fact isn't sarcasm. Its literally impossible to balance a mode with that many players.

The pvp is balanced around CC. Trying to balance FL is a waste of time.

FL isn't balanced and will never be balanced. DRK+DRG combo can be countered and countering it can be countered. It's hard to deal with, but people WILL do it because they enjoy beating others that way. It was the same back when the 24 man premades were running around.



For those saying "just guard" I just laugh. There's like 3 different jobs that can rip you out of guard to make sure you take all that damage.


Is this combo an exploit? No. Is it fair? Kind of? Like I said, it can be countered and played around. Even teams rolling with BH can be beat. I've done it plenty of times without needing a premade party to do it. It's all able leading your alliance and understanding how the combo works. it is far from flawless and unbeatable.



Sure SE do something about it? It really depends on how it is fixed. Melees are a little too chunky right now. Especially jobs like DRG and NIN. MNK and RPR should keep what they have and SAM is iffy and mostly a noob killer. SE could do something if it becomes a big enough problem.


For now, I suggest putting together a strategy to counter the combo. There are multiple that work well and don't require you to have a group of 4 to queue with. It really just depends on the job you play because some do it better than others. What's most important is that you alert your alliance and make sure they understand what the other is trying to do to them. But most people don't want to take that kind of leadership. They rather just keep dying and asking SE to change it on the forums.

I see a DRK running towards me with the horde i just back away
unless I'm PLD then can easily bait the onslaught then gap close to a team mate safely

Dragoon and Ninja being cried over last expansion. Despite an overhaul nothing has changed lol. With the amount of complaining that's being done over certain starts that pops up it's only a matter of time before premades gets removed entirely.

Dragoon is fine as is. There are other things I am more concerned about like Monk and Ninja limit breaks locking me out of Recuperate 2 seconds before I die. Just saying.

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Originally Posted by BubblyBoar

Is this combo an exploit? No. Is it fair? Kind of? Like I said, it can be countered and played around.

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Is this combo an exploit? Yes.
DRG's 5 yalm 30.000 LB potency was never intended to hit that many people, their 10 yalm 20.000 LB potency makes more sense. This is where DRK comes in that can pull everyone into the 5 yalm zone and with rng in play around 24 people, there will be always casualties no matter how well you try to tell people to gitgud.
Just a simple question, why other jobs can only deal around 18.000 but DRG allow for up to 30.000?

Is it fair? Yes, it can be countered just by playing DRG yourself. But that'd essentially asking people just to play these 2 jobs.

Trust me if you met this group in my DC, there is no strategy for countering them with the random groups that you got into.
You will just become fodders for them and waiting to lose, then came back here and tell me, yeah they need to nerf DRG.

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Originally Posted by Kathleen_

Bro I guarantee you, if the west had the culture of following the leader and their burst macros the same people shitting on you right now would actually agree with you. lmao

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Originally Posted by Dionysius

Is this combo an exploit? Yes.
DRG's 5 yalm 30.000 LB potency was never intended to hit that many people, their 10 yalm 20.000 LB potency makes more sense. This is where DRK comes in that can pull everyone into the 5 yalm zone and with rng in play around 24 people, there will be always casualties no matter how well you try to tell people to gitgud.
Just a simple question, why other jobs can only deal around 18.000 but DRG allow for up to 30.000?

Is it fair? Yes, it can be countered just by playing DRG yourself. But that'd essentially asking people just to play these 2 jobs.

Trust me if you met this group in my DC, there is no strategy for countering them with the random groups that you got into.
You will just become fodders for them and waiting to lose, then came back here and tell me, yeah they need to nerf DRG.

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Sorry for the pet peeve, but DRG LB is "not" 30,000 in Frontline in 5y radius. It is 21000 vs ranged, 12000 vs melee. Even with Geirskogul up that is 26500 for ranged, 15000 vs melee. Only combining Geirskogul with Battle High 5 or other buffs in your party (Astrologian LB or Balance card, Bard Apex + Blast Arrow) does the amount actually reach obscene levels of 40,000+ vs ranged and 25,000+ vs melee.

At the point where you are engaging into a team with Battle High 5 stacked to every rank and order you may need to think about bringing Paladins for Phalanx, Sages for Mesotes or other possible defensives and hold Guard for such onslaughts.

I don't like how it currently works either and I personally still think that Limit Break should NOT charge outside of combat, let alone from doing nothing while in combat, but we gotta deal with it. They will never ever exclude specific jobs from playing their game. At most, they can shift around the damage and mitigation scaling from large-scale pvp.

stay mad :cool:

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

Sorry for the pet peeve, but DRG LB is "not" 30,000 in Frontline in 5y radius. It is 21000 vs ranged, 12000 vs melee. Even with Geirskogul up that is 26500 for ranged, 15000 vs melee. Only combining Geirskogul with Battle High 5 or other buffs in your party (Astrologian LB or Balance card, Bard Apex + Blast Arrow) does the amount actually reach obscene levels of 40,000+ vs ranged and 25,000+ vs melee.

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I didn't went into the nitty gritty of - dmg taken because I was comparing the pure potency with other jobs.
Not one person come up with the reason of almost twice dmg from DRG lb vs other jobs, this keeps derailing to other subjects.

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Originally Posted by Dionysius

I didn't went into the nitty gritty of - dmg taken because I was comparing the pure potency with other jobs.
Not one person come up with the reason of almost twice dmg from DRG lb vs other jobs, this keeps derailing to other subjects.

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Because LB's function differently for each job... I've gotten 10+ kills from SAM LB which does 24k potency on its own and one shots anyone with the debuff, chain killed people with nin LB, gotten mass kill feeds with smn LB etc... DRG isn't unique in its ability to gank a bunch of people in FL with its LB.

Again, its FL, who the hell cares about balance there?

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Originally Posted by Dionysius

I didn't went into the nitty gritty of - dmg taken because I was comparing the pure potency with other jobs.
Not one person come up with the reason of almost twice dmg from DRG lb vs other jobs, this keeps derailing to other subjects.

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Because it is one of the LB's that is probably one of the easier ones to avoid or to prepare against? You can press Guard against it or you can even just run away because it takes some time before they can manually land the LB early. And yes I know there are skills that can stop Guard but that is irrelevant :p DRG LB excels in being used after people waste their Guards or if you set it up as a team

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Originally Posted by Dionysius

I'd rather deal with Paladin's Cover than this cheap abuse of using countdown to land everything at the same time and delete the other teams.

Regardless whether I'm with the GC that abuse this cheap trick or against them, both experience are awful and upsetting so many people that participate in this mode.

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I'm going to be irrelevant really quick and say that it has gotten easier to pressure yet stricter to burst. It's just an observe opinion though.

Let's gets to your post. I had to reread everything to make sure that I had full understanding. I have to disagree with the countdown thing being cheap. It's there to help up pvpers with bursting. Bursting is a basic necessity for finishing the high end raids from my perspective (saying perspective since I've never raised before). It's also a basic necessity if you wanted easier matches for Crystal Conflict. Without the burst phases raiders would probably wipe to enrage, and you would have zerg matches in frontlines.

As someone pointed out you would not be seeing that much if limit breaks weren't charging outside of combat. However, most asked for pvp to be easier, fun, and more attractive. This is just part of the result that we're getting.

A lot of people probably rely on DRG because of how their limit break works. With that said, I dont know why dark knights are being targetted. Sure, they have an ability that forces the other team to stack on each other. However, other classes can abuse this as well. Warriors and their AOE stun. Dancer and their limit break. Gunbreaker, and their limit break. I'm not even going to comment on summoner lol. I know they're a lot deadlier than just throwing an LB out there from afar. Hopefully you get my point.

This is from another thread, but I still think it's valid.

"Frontlines seems to be defined by the DRK tactic, at least on OCE, and I don't see that as exactly healthy PVP balance that there is such a dominant tactic."

Currently, at least to me, the DRK tactic is so dominant, it defines how you play FL. Follow the DRK, support the DRK, that's how you increase you chances to win games.

If you get caught in a puddle every time and not as a one off, you aren't paying attention. I can understand the grievance with the drg lb as you can't really tell if its friend of foe in the chaos of a skirmish, but if anything salted earth is a joke. It shouldn't be a puddle, but a circle centered on the DRK that moves with them. Do you even know how many people willingly stand in that puddle or even stick around long enough to get bound? Outside of FL not many.

At the end of the day FL is just lemmings 3d and should be treated as such. Get your bonus get your kicks and get out.