Many Savage PFs are barring PLD and WAR, anyone know what's going on?

I see a lot of PFs locking Tank roles to DRK and GNB. Something wrong with PLD and WAR?

Can't say from experience, but probably just due to the higher DPS on DRK and GNB.

Because they are behind enough on dps to legitimately be a detriment to the group.

Wonder how long before WAR groups start rolling out again. Bit of a pattern there. WARs get denied savage groups, they start doing 8-mans.... And it works.

Because their dps are not doing enough damage so they are depending on the small difference in tank dps to compensate for their shortcomings.

P8S is a very tight enrage check.

Groups want to clear. Dps is extremely important by developer design. Even if the group is good enough, they have no room for small slip ups or mistakes, thus a PLD/WAR decreases their chance of success. Imagine having a 0 death run and you wipe because of one damage down or someone forgot a pot, but if you brought a GNB/DRK you'd be clear. No reason not to.

A good example > Xenosys switched to GNB from WAR in P8S, passed the dps check with 2 damage downs, think that for a moment.

Pld and War need meta DPS to carry their load P8S requires. I've cleared the fight, I've had to go Drk just to make the check.

I'm beginning to think they may be planning to relegate PLD and WAR to dungeon tanks while GNB and DRK dominate in a raid environment. Unfortunately for PLD, this effectively would mean it has no reason to exist, because nobody in their right mind is going to pick it in its current state over WAR when the not!mythics come out. I really hope I don't turn out to be right about this.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

I'm beginning to think they may be planning to relegate PLD and WAR to dungeon tanks while GNB and DRK dominate in a raid environment. Unfortunately for PLD, this effectively would mean it has no reason to exist, because nobody in their right mind is going to pick it in its current state over WAR when the not!mythics come out. I really hope I don't turn out to be right about this.

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Except that is a contradiction to their ethos of any job and any comp can clear any content....safe to say SE actually screwed up and the imbalance is finally showing how bad it is, was already pointed out last tier when the DPS was easier but people brushed it off with excuses for PLD being behind in DPS...just an fyi there is no justification for tanks to not be outputting the same amount of DPS. Let's hope SE have got a wake up call, so PLD, WAR and other jobs that need some love finally get it.

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Originally Posted by aodhan_ofinnegain

Except that is a contradiction to their ethos of any job and any comp can clear any content....safe to say SE actually screwed up and the imbalance is finally showing how bad it is, was already pointed out last tier when the DPS was easier but people brushed it off with excuses for PLD being behind in DPS...just an fyi there is no justification for tanks to not be outputting the same amount of DPS. Let's hope SE have got a wake up call, so PLD, WAR and other jobs that need some love finally get it.

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Paladin at least has been getting consistent buffs quite a lot, warrior got one during 6.2 they're likely on the right track, I think with warrior especially they didn't wanna overtune it with the new crit changes, Paladin needs some general fundamental fixes ontop of outputting a lot more while warrior generally just needs more potency buffs. I don't think SE is intending for both jobs to be "low dps tanks" I do think they generally wanna push gnb and drk as the slightly higher ones this expansion but that's me doing some guess work (also warrior shouldn't be top dps in its current state, but should be way higher then it is now, way way way more closer it should hardly be a difference).

I think for the new dugeon system they have to consider some tank changes before 6.25 comes out, Warrior clearly is overtuned in dugeons while dark knight might suffer a bit from depending on the damage from pulls, They will all perform passable for bosses in the tanking department, We have no clue on enrage and how much you would need a tank that does more dps. Dugeon balancing (even when higher dugeon content is out) comes second to raids, but I do think their needs to be quite a big list of changes.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

Paladin at least has been getting consistent buffs quite a lot, warrior got one during 6.2 they're likely on the right track, I think with warrior especially they didn't wanna overtune it with the new crit changes, Paladin needs some general fundamental fixes ontop of outputting a lot more while warrior generally just needs more potency buffs. I don't think SE is intending for both jobs to be "low dps tanks" I do think they generally wanna push gnb and drk as the slightly higher ones this expansion but that's me doing some guess work (also warrior shouldn't be top dps in its current state, but should be way higher then it is now, way way way more closer it should hardly be a difference).

I think for the new dugeon system they have to consider some tank changes before 6.25 comes out, Warrior clearly is overtuned in dugeons while dark knight might suffer a bit from depending on the damage from pulls, They will all perform passable for bosses in the tanking department, We have no clue on enrage and how much you would need a tank that does more dps. Dugeon balancing (even when higher dugeon content is out) comes second to raids, but I do think their needs to be quite a big list of changes.

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Sorry but the fact that tank balance was so good last expansion, current balance is unacceptable and no the paltry potency increase on PLDs Requiescat phase is not where it's needed, and it's nothing short of a HW 2.0 token buff, looks like they're doing something but actually doing nothing to actually address the issues.

As far as dungeon balancing, nah that should have absolutely 0 effect on how jobs are balanced. Sure WAR can be a powerhouse in dungeons via self sustain, but at no point should that penalise the job in the content that actually matters.

Criterion dungeons, we have to wait and see, I don't think personally, WAR will have that much of an advantage over the other tanks, sure it's self-sustain is strong, but I reckon we'll have to go with smaller trash pulls weakening Bloodwhetting strength by some degree.

Overall no job should be pushed as a dungeon job or a raid job, has never really been a thing in XIV and rather it never go that way. Again their own words, any job and any comp, can clear any content, means SE need to actually start doing more substantial adjustments to bring the weaker jobs up to an acceptable balance, so people can actually not feel like a detriment for play the jobs they love to play.

HW PLD existed once, it does not need to exist again.

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Originally Posted by aodhan_ofinnegain

Sorry but the fact that tank balance was so good last expansion, current balance is unacceptable and no the paltry potency increase on PLDs Requiescat phase is not where it's needed, and it's nothing short of a HW 2.0 token buff, looks like they're doing something but actually doing nothing to actually address the issues.

As far as dungeon balancing, nah that should have absolutely 0 effect on how jobs are balanced. Sure WAR can be a powerhouse in dungeons via self sustain, but at no point should that penalise the job in the content that actually matters.

Criterion dungeons, we have to wait and see, I don't think personally, WAR will have that much of an advantage over the other tanks, sure it's self-sustain is strong, but I reckon we'll have to go with smaller trash pulls weakening Bloodwhetting strength by some degree.

Overall no job should be pushed as a dungeon job or a raid job, has never really been a thing in XIV and rather it never go that way. Again their own words, any job and any comp, can clear any content, means SE need to actually start doing more substantial adjustments to bring the weaker jobs up to an acceptable balance, so people can actually not feel like a detriment for play the jobs they love to play.

HW PLD existed once, it does not need to exist again.

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Oh for sure the changes aren't great, I do think its good people are being vocal, I do think they're trying to balance warrior/pld not to be dugeon tanks only inherit by how many buffs paladin got the recent change warrior got shows they do seem to want to balance the tanks, I don't think they're purposely making the damage that low was my main point. I think they're Trying of course they're failing I hate how Paladin is being treated as a Paladin main (Someone who really loves my job, right now i dont bother with triyng week 1, because I'm not a competent enough player but I'm aiming for the future where I do tackle harder fights week 1).

I disagree BW is way overtuned for trash pulls, if dugeons are now mattering and warrior becomes the only good choice depending on outgoing damage in large pulls It's realistic to that healers might struggle to heal dark knight, you could be right that pulls might be low, they might not matter as much but I'm assuming the pulls are going to be hitting harder then normal dungeons, I feel like healers might lose GCD AOE having a tank such as drk which would be a big DPS loss.

I will wait and see though you're right to say that we should wait, I shouldn't assume the worst outcome where Warrior becomes the only viable tank, but I really dislike how warrior is designed in trash pulls and the idea of it being even considered in harder content somewhat baffles me.

right pld and war are no bueno. Few weeks they are going be back

Good. Maybe then SE will give the underperforming tanks some much need attention.
MCH on the other hand is just a lost cause.

They have like real 200 raw dps difference at this point.
How on earth can that be a dealbreaker, change in dps job can actually create fivefold bigger effect than changing your tanks.

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Originally Posted by Ayche

They have like real 200 raw dps difference at this point.
How on earth can that be a dealbreaker, change in dps job can actually create fivefold bigger effect than changing your tanks.

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It's a thread about tanks that's why it probably wasn't mentioned but don't think for second that dps slots don't get locked as well.
Most parties exclude WAR/ GNB for tanks, lock dps slots to double melee and exclude MCH/ RDM/ sometimes SMN.

It will change in a few weeks and the currently locked classes will be allowed to join again but for now PF is trying to minimize risks and I can't fault them for it. Wipe for hours to small mistakes like a single damage down, someone's pot not going off or someone not bringing their a-game just so you can play whichever comp you like or make sure you have a bit of wiggle room in an unpredictable environment and increase the chances of clearing?

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Originally Posted by Azuri

Because they are behind enough on dps to legitimately be a detriment to the group.

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All I read was "being used as scapegoats because you have bad players on DPS".

On a more serious note, I don't think the devs really expected PLD/WAR to be that far behind on DPS. Watch both of them get DPS buffs soon.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

On a more serious note, I don't think the devs really expected PLD/WAR to be that far behind on DPS. Watch both of them get DPS buffs soon.

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Paladin needs a rotation work than a buff, you can buff it extra, GNB/DRK will still be picked for their insane synergy with raid buffs.

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Originally Posted by Ayche

They have like real 200 raw dps difference at this point.
How on earth can that be a dealbreaker, change in dps job can actually create fivefold bigger effect than changing your tanks.

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The p8 s door boss dps check is around 61400 dps. With week 1 gear and items that is a pretty heavy dps check we’re 500 dps can make or break the run. Now think about it, how bad it is when you have 3-4 jobs that deal around 250-350 dps then there counter parts.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

All I read was "being used as scapegoats because you have bad players on DPS".

On a more serious note, I don't think the devs really expected PLD/WAR to be that far behind on DPS. Watch both of them get DPS buffs soon.

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Or some statics wanna go double caster because they think even week 1 can be cleared with every comb like it was in Shadowbringer. Now you lose around 2000 dps if you go the worst of the worst jobs per role. It’s really fun to realize your job is so bad you sandbag the party.

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Originally Posted by Mortex

The p8 s door boss dps check is around 61400 dps. With week 1 gear and items that is a pretty heavy dps check we’re 500 dps can make or break the run. Now think about it, how bad it is when you have 3-4 jobs that deal around 250-350 dps then there counter parts.

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You are much more likely to find the missing DPS from the DPS slots. Just by the nature of how ... I mean that is where majority of the damage is made at, there is also where the biggest differences are made. Penny wise, pound foolish and all that.

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Originally Posted by Ayche

You are much more likely to find the missing DPS from the DPS slots. Just by the nature of how ... I mean that is where majority of the damage is made at, there is also where the biggest differences are made. Penny wise, pound foolish and all that.

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The answer is that you change both. If your goal is to clear, not taking WAR, PLD, RPR, MCH or RDM is objectively the correct choice.

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Originally Posted by Azuri

The answer is that you change both. If your goal is to clear, not taking WAR, PLD, RPR, MCH or RDM is objectively the correct choice.

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You know, I was going to make a point how just changing your tanks might gets you only 300 extra dps by changing jobs at the BEST CASE scenario, but the truth is that trying to solve enrages by changing jobs around is inherently foolish endeavor.
The differences between jobs in raw dps at the median level is not enough to really statistically to solve enrages. You can try to get *better players* but good luck with that, nobody wants to be the football manager.

Edit: And I know you brought up having "worst possible jobs" as a scenario, but I find it too unlikely to happen in PF naturally that let's disregard it.

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Originally Posted by Ayche

You know, I was going to make a point how just changing your tanks might gets you only 300 extra dps by changing jobs at the BEST CASE scenario, but the truth is that trying to solve enrages by changing jobs around is inherently foolish endeavor.
The differences between jobs in raw dps at the median level is not enough to really statistically to solve enrages. You can try to get *better players* but good luck with that, nobody wants to be the football manager.

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A 5th percentile BLM does more damage than 50th RDM. You can literally pick up a job for the first time and be more worth than some of the best players on one of the "lesser" jobs.

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Originally Posted by Azuri

A 5th percentile BLM does more damage than 50th RDM. You can literally pick up a job for the first time and be more worth than some of the best players on one of the "lesser" jobs.

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Casters have that unique situation where you get that 500 dps increase just by switching a RDM/SMN to a BLM.
But that is harder with prange or melees. You don't get the same kind of gains by just switching a Reaper for a Monk, thats close to a 200.
And when it comes to these margins, you might just get more dps by training more with whoever you got, maybe they will just get more comfortable with the fight and perform better too.

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Originally Posted by Ayche

You know, I was going to make a point how just changing your tanks might gets you only 300 extra dps by changing jobs at the BEST CASE scenario, but the truth is that trying to solve enrages by changing jobs around is inherently foolish endeavor.
The differences between jobs in raw dps at the median level is not enough to really statistically to solve enrages. You can try to get *better players* but good luck with that, nobody wants to be the football manager.

Edit: And I know you brought up having "worst possible jobs" as a scenario, but I find it too unlikely to happen in PF naturally that let's disregard it.

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It would be foolish if the job balance wouldn’t be this bad. Xenos a war main swapped too gnb for these 300 more dps. Like think about it for a second.

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Originally Posted by Ayche

Ok yeah, but football manager question: How you gonna recruit that BLM? Sure, I can win more games if I replace my 45-year old dad striker with Messi, but you know am I going to have the money to pay him?
Pound for pound, having an average player change jobs is going to be a small change in your total dps amount. Your average MCH is going to be an average BRD, if you find out quick.

Lmao fuck me, I read that as 5% as in you know, top 1% as the best players... I'll fix this post later when I am done with this duty finder...

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We were talking about PF. You put a PF up and lock the slot. And yes, you'll fill.

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Originally Posted by Ayche

You know, I was going to make a point how just changing your tanks might gets you only 300 extra dps by changing jobs at the BEST CASE scenario, but the truth is that trying to solve enrages by changing jobs around is inherently foolish endeavor.
The differences between jobs in raw dps at the median level is not enough to really statistically to solve enrages. You can try to get *better players* but good luck with that, nobody wants to be the football manager.

Edit: And I know you brought up having "worst possible jobs" as a scenario, but I find it too unlikely to happen in PF naturally that let's disregard it.

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It's not if playing a stronger job at a very basic level offers more dps than playing a weaker job but being competent to good on it. Like BLM played at minimum level, you know these nice 0 parses, deals more damage than RDM or SMN played at 75th+. A bad BLM out-dpses the rank 1 RDM. Do you really want to gamble that the RDM you get plays at ranked level?
Because that's much more difficult to get than just locking the slot and waiting for someone to hop in. Your football manager can lean back and slurp a cocktail with this instead of trying to find a RDM or SMN that's good enough to make up for their weaker dps by bringing their a-game.
Which is also why they all lock to double melee because even the weakest double melee comp is stronger than the strongest double caster comp by a good margin.
These differences add up and result in a much higher dps loss than someone borking their rotation, missing a pot or even eating a damage down.

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Originally Posted by Ayche

They have like real 200 raw dps difference at this point.
How on earth can that be a dealbreaker, change in dps job can actually create fivefold bigger effect than changing your tanks.

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Let me guess another post that looks at rdps only? If you looked at the adps tab of the tanks you will understand where the major problem is. When you account for 200-400 rdps difference and add up what they hit within raid buffs (400-700). Just swapping from a PLD to a GNB results in 700 - 1k + total raid dps differences.

There is a reason why a lot of players are swapping the tanks.
Not only that, it is more pressuring onto the DPS to push even more and greed causing wipes and less consistency for groups.
Just swapping 1 tank literally makes into play safe and clear. You swap 2, easily 1k + total raid dps difference.

People really need to stop looking at rdps tab only and determine full job potentials especially when you are most likely going to have a few buffers in majority of parties.

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Originally Posted by FlareVyzar

People really need to stop looking at rdps tab only and determine full job potentials especially when you are most likely going to have a few buffers in majority of parties.

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So much this especially for tanks, I cannot stress enough, rDPS is the worst measurement for tank because, tank do not bring any sort of offensive raid buff. aDPS is a better measurement of how tanks perform, and actually show's how bad the disparity actually is with the tanks at the moment.

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Originally Posted by Ayche

They have like real 200 raw dps difference at this point.
How on earth can that be a dealbreaker, change in dps job can actually create fivefold bigger effect than changing your tanks.

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I had to switch from PLD to DRK on my raiding alt

My aDPS went up from 6.8k to 8.0k, a 1.2k DPS difference. Compared to my RDM that switched job to MNK that gained him 1.5k DPS increase. So yeah switching tank jobs have almost the same amount of impact as your DPS switching to the best DPS job

Heres my take on this from a DRK main, I've barely played Paladin, I do not like playing the job, but I have nothing against those who do.

I've cleared up to P7S last week, all in party finder. Played with every combination availble to me and honestly I think that PLD is the one I'd think struggles the most, but not for damage reasons surprisingly. (or at least not ONLY for that reason)

The thing I found to be most cumbersome when playing with a PLD is the fact that their Invul's cooldown is 7 minutes long. And while I get the idea that its like that because its invul has the strongest effect, I feel like the expectations of an invul skill are different from what they used to be.
They're no longer "Oh fuck, Emergency Tank Privilege" buttons, but rather expected parts of your kit to be used at certain times to make mechanics go easier. This raid tier really stresses it with its excess of heavy DOT effects, ESPECIALLY P7S.
Beyond damage, there is another aspect of this game that isn't talked about as much as it probably should, and thats resources. By that I mean, defensive cooldowns, healing, mitigation, you name it. You only have so many so using the bare minimum possible is ideal for longevity, which leads to even higher damage.
Simply being able to only deal with those heavy bleeds on ONE tank opposed to two is huge, taken further by the fact that now the other tank can funnel their cheap mitigation into the tank with the DOT. TBN specifically is amazing for easing the pain of these DoT Debuffs, making them much less stressful on your team.

Simply put, if you have a WAR and a DRK you can alternate these bleeds pretty well and still get your invul back at the end of the fight. GNB is also fine. All of these tanks can comfortably use their invuls in cycles.
PLD can do this as well but really only once per fight, and I think thats a pretty big detriment compared to others which can safely do it twice. Theres a prevailing strat for P7S thats pretty similar to ELMO that uses both tank Invuls, PLD cant do it and also take an invul during the beginning of the fight due to that 7m CD.


This will become less of an issue as gear power creep continues, and good players will be able to bypass all of this no problem. But from week 1 with PF clears. My experience has been that PLD really isn't optimal offensively or defensively.
A lot of the unique defensive tools that PLD have honestly have too many strings attached to be useful, to the point where DRK's incredibly simple defensive utility of being flat mitigation low cool down (Oblation/Dark Mind) seem more fitted for raiding than PLD.

Well if you guys are seeing that huge aDPS differences, I'll concede that point. aDPS per run has so many conditional factors to it that who knows what was a good run and what was a better run from statistical analysis pov.

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Originally Posted by Ayche

Well if you guys are seeing that huge aDPS differences, I'll concede that point. aDPS per run has so many conditional factors to it that who knows what was a good run and what was a better run from statistical analysis pov.

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It's mainly decided by the class you play.
Tanks don't offer any buffs so what they lack in aDPS can't be made up through rDPS provided by buffing others like, e.g. a DNC does. So it all comes down to how much potency someone can dump during raid buffs of others - and GNB and DRK have a strong burst while WAR and PLD don't reach these levels. DRK has such a stupidly high opener burst that they're your preferred melee card target during it.
aDPS is the best metric for tanks because it's the only role that completely lacks raid buffs as a whole compared to every other (sub)role. It's more complicated if some have buffs and some don't but with all tanks literally being limited to just smashing their buttons, it's the most accurate and meaningful metric.

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Originally Posted by Oizen

Heres my take on this from a DRK main, I've barely played Paladin, I do not like playing the job, but I have nothing against those who do.

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Here's my take as a PLD main on defensive utility issues that a lot of player complains about.

Based on data, it's pretty obvious PLD always take more damage than any other tanks due to lack of self mitigation. But something that most PLD players ignore is the usage of intervention which is one of the most busted mitigation tool that rarely ever used by a lot of PLD players ( Intervention gives 20% + 10% mitigation with 250x4 potency regen ). If you give Intervention to your Co-tank on every tankbuster you would be surprised by how much less damage he is going to take over the course of the fight.

Looking at the damage taken that my co-tank and myself took during P7S. My co-tank (GNB) took 1.5M damage, while I took 2.1M damage for a total of 3.6M damage. Looking at this it seems like me as a PLD took 30% more damage than I should have. But after comparing it to other clear run of DRK and GNB pair, where the DRK took 2M damage, and the GNB took 1.9M damage for 3.9M damage total.
When you are raiding it will felt like the PLD is taking so much more damage than the other tank, but a PLD that kept giving Intervention to the co-tank makes the DoT so much more bearable for the other one so much so that my GNB co-tank requires almost no oGCD healing from my healers and so they just need to focus on giving me their oGCD. While I don't really have much to say for other tank pairing but from seeing my AST friend POV on her healing a DRK and GNB pairing, both of them requires healing on every tankbuster.

To emphasize how busted a single Intervention is. An unmitigated P7S tankbuster DoT is 33k x 5 (165k ), if you give a Intervention on it then you would be reducing the damage to 25k x 5 ( 125k ). A 40k damage reduction on your co-tank on every single tankbuster. If done on every single tankbuster on P7S then you are going to reduce the DoT damage on your co-tank is taking by 240k.

But in the end I still switched to DRK because of p8s DPS check

It's DPS difference.

It makes sense to bar WAR/PLD from P8S's brutal DPS check to improve one's frankly abysmal odds of clearing with randoms in PF, but not from anything else.

That said, there's not much reason to favor PLD's toolkit over the tanks', which isn't as true for WAR. WAR also isn't as disadvantaged when it comes to DPS as PLD is, though it's still notably weaker than DRK or GNB.

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Originally Posted by esra01

Here's my take as a PLD main on defensive utility issues that a lot of player complains about.

Based on data, it's pretty obvious PLD always take more damage than any other tanks due to lack of self mitigation. But something that most PLD players ignore is the usage of intervention which is one of the most busted mitigation tool that rarely ever used by a lot of PLD players ( Intervention gives 20% + 10% mitigation with 250x4 potency regen ). If you give Intervention to your Co-tank on every tankbuster you would be surprised by how much less damage he is going to take over the course of the fight.

Looking at the damage taken that my co-tank and myself took during P7S. My co-tank (GNB) took 1.5M damage, while I took 2.1M damage for a total of 3.6M damage. Looking at this it seems like me as a PLD took 30% more damage than I should have. But after comparing it to other clear run of DRK and GNB pair, where the DRK took 2M damage, and the GNB took 1.9M damage for 3.9M damage total.
When you are raiding it will felt like the PLD is taking so much more damage than the other tank, but a PLD that kept giving Intervention to the co-tank makes the DoT so much more bearable for the other one so much so that my GNB co-tank requires almost no oGCD healing from my healers and so they just need to focus on giving me their oGCD. While I don't really have much to say for other tank pairing but from seeing my AST friend POV on her healing a DRK and GNB pairing, both of them requires healing on every tankbuster.

To emphasize how busted a single Intervention is. An unmitigated P7S tankbuster DoT is 33k x 5 (165k ), if you give a Intervention on it then you would be reducing the damage to 25k x 5 ( 125k ). A 40k damage reduction on your co-tank on every single tankbuster. If done on every single tankbuster on P7S then you are going to reduce the DoT damage on your co-tank is taking by 240k.

But in the end I still switched to DRK because of p8s DPS check

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So then its more of a lot of PLD players dont know how to play the job, I'm not surprised it defiantely looks difficult.

Even making correct use of all of PLD's tools does not make up for how lackluster they are at the moment. Damage has long been the deciding factor for just about everything in this game, and it's not going to change. Personal mitigation is a secondary concern, and it falls flat there as well. It even falls flat in terms of most of its utilitarian uses.

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Originally Posted by Oizen

So then its more of a lot of PLD players dont know how to play the job, I'm not surprised it defiantely looks difficult.

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The same applies to pretty much every other tank that forgets they can use their short duration mitigation on someone else. Granted paladin is the only one that can put Intervention on someone else and then use Shelltron for themselves.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

Even making correct use of all of PLD's tools does not make up for how lackluster they are at the moment. Damage has long been the deciding factor for just about everything in this game, and it's not going to change. Personal mitigation is a secondary concern, and it falls flat there as well. It even falls flat in terms of most of its utilitarian uses.

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Everyone thought the poster boy curse was gone... Oh how wrong they were.