Diminishing returns, Diminishing returns, Diminishing returns

We need them.....now. So many of the crowd control abilities are on a extremely low CD compared to purify and its measly 5 seconds of immunity. Getting chained with stuns and silences shouldn't be a thing.

We need either DR or something similar like swtor's resolve system that builds up based on the type of stun and how long the stun is.

Making purify a reliable X seconds without CC would also help.

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Originally Posted by Corbeau

Making purify a reliable X seconds without CC would also help.

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Even if they fixed it to make it more reliable...its still only 5 seconds and things like WHM poly completely ignores it.

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Originally Posted by Corbeau

Making purify a reliable X seconds without CC would also help.

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It is, though. Resilience literally does what you want. The problem is that the servers seemingly use spell batching, which means that you can get CC'd again because the enemy's CC got batched ahead of the Resilience buff. This is also how you can end up eating a full-damage attack even though your Guard went up over a second prior to the attack landing, at least on your end of things. It's really obvious in Frontlines, where you might have 10 different people all spitting CC at you at different times.

Or do you mean you want Resilience to immunity to literally *all* CC, not just the usual suspects? That would be a substantial nerf to WHM, RPR, DNC, and any other class that relies on their immunity-busting effects - they would need substantial buffs elsewhere to compensate, which seems like more work than is really necessary.

I mean make the damn thing reliably function the way it says it should.

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Originally Posted by Corbeau

I mean make the damn thing reliably function the way it says it should.

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Add that to the pile of "fix the servers please" requests, I guess. It doesn't function as it should because the servers are crap. I suppose it would be hilariously expensive to replace all the server tech and hardware to allow for higher tickrates and to remove batching, though.

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Originally Posted by Gserpent

Add that to the pile of "fix the servers please" requests, I guess. It doesn't function as it should because the servers are crap. I suppose it would be hilariously expensive to replace all the server tech and hardware to allow for higher tickrates and to remove batching, though.

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This is honestly the biggest reason as to why purify feels like s***, as does most of the burst damage in this game (as evidenced in frontlines), but this is nothing new. Purify should be a few seconds of complete cc immunity, and work on WHM's spell.

You would have to buff WHM a *lot* if you made polymorph cleansable. I recommend not doing that. It's fine. It's a long cooldown, it doesn't prevent you from moving, and it doesn't do damage. People need to learn to pay attention and position themselves better. You won't die to polymorph CC chaining if you actually pay attention to what spells the WHM has and hasn't used.

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Originally Posted by Gserpent

It is, though. Resilience literally does what you want. The problem is that the servers seemingly use spell batching, which means that you can get CC'd again because the enemy's CC got batched ahead of the Resilience buff. This is also how you can end up eating a full-damage attack even though your Guard went up over a second prior to the attack landing, at least on your end of things. It's really obvious in Frontlines, where you might have 10 different people all spitting CC at you at different times.

Or do you mean you want Resilience to immunity to literally *all* CC, not just the usual suspects? That would be a substantial nerf to WHM, RPR, DNC, and any other class that relies on their immunity-busting effects - they would need substantial buffs elsewhere to compensate, which seems like more work than is really necessary.

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They could just make the Resilience buff fire off at the same time as purify does it's main thing instead of checking for a condition causing that unnecessary delay.

This same thing happens with Warden's Paean btw.

Aside from BLM being out of control right now with double paradox and the added heavy, I don't think there's generally too much crowd control in right now although I wouldn't argue against it if Purify cooldown was lowered by 5 seconds or something.

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In other news nobody that's crying for diminishing returns is yet to explain how it'd even work in crystal conflict. You'd need clear signs that someone is immune to crowd control. Does SE have to make separate buffs to show diminished stun, diminished silence, diminished freeze as well as immunity to each effect? That would clutter the buff bars like CRAZY.
How long would it last? It can't be too long or it would just be stupid but if it's like 20 seconds then it ain't doing much because whatever cc'd you probably takes about that long to come off cooldown anyway. If you'd get stunned into silence into bind the dimishing returns would also do jack shit unless you want every effect to also diminish every other effect.

If there is a general consensus that cc's last too long then the easier and much more graceful solution would be to just plain lower all of their durations by 1 second.

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Originally Posted by Lammas

They could just make the Resilience buff fire off at the same time as purify does it's main thing instead of checking for a condition causing that unnecessary delay.

This same thing happens with Warden's Paean btw.

Aside from BLM being out of control right now with double paradox and the added heavy, I don't think there's generally too much crowd control in right now although I wouldn't argue against it if Purify cooldown was lowered by 5 seconds or something.

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In other news nobody that's crying for diminishing returns is yet to explain how it'd even work in crystal conflict. You'd need clear signs that someone is immune to crowd control. Does SE have to make separate buffs to show diminished stun, diminished silence, diminished freeze as well as immunity to each effect? That would clutter the buff bars like CRAZY.
How long would it last? It can't be too long or it would just be stupid but if it's like 20 seconds then it ain't doing much because whatever cc'd you probably takes about that long to come off cooldown anyway. If you'd get stunned into silence into bind the dimishing returns would also do jack shit unless you want every effect to also diminish every other effect.

If there is a general consensus that cc's last too long then the easier and much more graceful solution would be to just plain lower all of their durations by 1 second.

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Diminishing returns would need to wear off over time.
There are matches where people die 0-1 times, they would become completely immune to anything.

The "losing" team already gets enough perks with faster crystal and faster checkpoints. But also punishes people that die more with making their respawn timer longer?

Diminishing returns would ONLY hurt the losing team.

I would sitll rather give purify an inherent immunity to cc. Makes people play around "haha yolo purify jump in". Makes people use their stuff smarter instead of just use when you want and it probably works.
And shorter cooldown.

People that whine that they would have to play around immunity while also saying they hate stuns etc.... uh. Well, stuns would be easier to avoid if you could play around them with being good at predicting when people use it.
Same as with guard.
Extra layer of strategy.

But well considering people do whatever they want and not care about recuping/guarding/retreating to elixir... I'm not surprised people dont actually want to play around people being able to give immunity to themself....
What people actually want is being able to play like garbage (believe me, theres so many people playing so bad that it feels like they're griefing) because trying in THIS game is bad.... that they wanna bash their head against walls and be able to win.

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Originally Posted by Cheremia

I would sitll rather give purify an inherent immunity to cc. Makes people play around "haha yolo purify jump in". Makes people use their stuff smarter instead of just use when you want and it probably works.
And shorter cooldown.

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This is what I would like as well. I also think Resilience could use a proper effect to show when it's active instead of having to scan for it on the enemy buffs.

The fact that Purify doesn't allow you to predict and avoid CC is, in the simplest of terms, cringe. I don't see why it would be bad to allow the player to activate a buff that allows them to actually play the game for a few seconds before they just get CC'd to oblivion, not to mention you can still get poly'd, charmed, or hysteria'd, so it's not exactly an 'I'm invincible' button. Relying on the action of removing a status effect first is, quite frankly, stupid, since the server tick rate is shit.

Also, why can you repeatedly stun someone with no chance for counterplay? Why did they remove the 10s buff that prevented abuse of the same CC over and over? At least make it so the duration of the effect decreases a bit before it grants immunity, rather than this garbage we have currently. No PvP dev in their right mind would add CC without DR, it's making me question whether or not the PvP team is on something.

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Originally Posted by Naphtha

The fact that Purify doesn't allow you to predict and avoid CC is, in the simplest of terms, cringe. I don't see why it would be bad to allow the player to activate a buff that allows them to actually play the game for a few seconds before they just get CC'd to oblivion, not to mention you can still get poly'd, charmed, or hysteria'd, so it's not exactly an 'I'm invincible' button. Relying on the action of removing a status effect first is, quite frankly, stupid, since the server tick rate is shit.

Also, why can you repeatedly stun someone with no chance for counterplay? Why did they remove the 10s buff that prevented abuse of the same CC over and over? At least make it so the duration of the effect decreases a bit before it grants immunity, rather than this garbage we have currently. No PvP dev in their right mind would add CC without DR, it's making me question whether or not the PvP team is on something.

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What really bakes my noodle is the pvp team clearly had crowd control and burst damage in mind when they designed this overhaul but then decided to leave some jobs without high burst, and some jobs without reliably spammable crowd control. Or in the case of jobs like dancer and reaper, both. It blows my mind how poorly balanced the whole thing is, I have no clue why they're taking such a slow approach to tweaking something they clearly didn't put any effort into testing.

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Originally Posted by Gserpent

Add that to the pile of "fix the servers please" requests, I guess. It doesn't function as it should because the servers are crap. I suppose it would be hilariously expensive to replace all the server tech and hardware to allow for higher tickrates and to remove batching, though.

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New servers aren't gonna fix this, I highly doubt that SE's servers are worse than WoW's in 2004. The entire game is designed with this delay in mind and it is most likely built into their engine, so fixing it is most likely never gonna happen unless they actually overhaul the engine, which is about as likely as getting an entirely new FF mmo. I have no idea why they thought a super fast reflex-based pvp design is a great idea with how this game functions tbh.

Or just rip out CC from the DPS classes and relegate that shit to tanks and maybe healers

Bring.
Back.
Additionals.

Frontlines exclusively. RE: Diminishing returns, not sure it's necessary if additionals are made available. Rescue is sorely missed as an escape mechanism, attunement also. Conflict has absolutely no need for DR; certain jobs would become laughably OP (reaper) vs. teams made up of mostly/entirely one form of CC (NIN, WAR, SAM, MNK for example are stun based).

I would only insist that tanks be afforded fetter ward as well in lieu of say Rampart or Reprisal as it was focused more towards The Feast.

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Originally Posted by Karasio

Or just rip out CC from the DPS classes and relegate that shit to tanks and maybe healers

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Honestly? I wouldn't mind that. Give DPS roots/slows and pure stuns to the tanks and sleep/silence to the healers/ DPS support jobs.

In CrystalC it's fine(ish) as is. Not saying there isn't room for improvement, but it's not that bad when you only play against 5 other peeps, and you have a view of their buffs etc.

CrowdControl is a much bigger problem in frontlines. The "laggy" servers, how the engine works, or whatever, makes purify really unreliable when it matters the most, and makes melee really annoying to play in FL. There should be diminishing returns in FL like there was prior to 6.1. And perhaps rework Purify so that it is actually reliable. Make the tooltip match reality.

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Originally Posted by Guesswhat

In CrystalC it's fine(ish) as is. Not saying there isn't room for improvement, but it's not that bad when you only play against 5 other peeps, and you have a view of their buffs etc.

CrowdControl is a much bigger problem in frontlines. The "laggy" servers, how the engine works, or whatever, makes purify really unreliable when it matters the most, and makes melee really annoying to play in FL. There should be diminishing returns in FL like there was prior to 6.1. And perhaps rework Purify so that it is actually reliable. Make the tooltip match reality.

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I've been CC'd for well over 8 seconds before in a crystal match. The game needs some kind of system like WoW's DR or SWTOR's resolve structure.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

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Ye, there are def room for improvement. My point is that CC is on steroids in Frontlines, and is in dire need for a fix. I hope SE is aware CC is way too punishing atm.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

Honestly? I wouldn't mind that. Give DPS roots/slows and pure stuns to the tanks and sleep/silence to the healers/ DPS support jobs.

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DPS jobs should not have hard CC period. Give them slows and whatever other shit but not roots or anything. Getting rooted by a range DPS as a melee is effectively a stun

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Originally Posted by Karasio

DPS jobs should not have hard CC period. Give them slows and whatever other shit but not roots or anything. Getting rooted by a range DPS as a melee is effectively a stun

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A root is not effectively a stun because you can still use actions while rooted including popping defensive skills. I'd rather get rooted than silenced. I also don't have a problem with DPS have hard stuns, but I don't mind the idea of moving stuns to tanks either. At the end of the day though, regardless of who has what type of CC, we need some kind of system to curb the stacking of CC in general.

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Originally Posted by Karasio

DPS jobs should not have hard CC period. Give them slows and whatever other shit but not roots or anything. Getting rooted by a range DPS as a melee is effectively a stun

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You seriously don't understand the difference of different CC's if you spout things like this. Root stops you from moving. It doesn't stop you from using your skills, be it attacks or recup or guard. This statement is so ignorant that it's hard to take seriously.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

A root is not effectively a stun because you can still use actions while rooted including popping defensive skills. I'd rather get rooted than silenced. I also don't have a problem with DPS have hard stuns, but I don't mind the idea of moving stuns to tanks either. At the end of the day though, regardless of who has what type of CC, we need some kind of system to curb the stacking of CC in general.

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Fair, fair. IF any DPS were to have any kind of harder CC, I could only really see it on like bard and dancer really. But still at a significant cooldown. And I guess I don't play other melee jobs enough, considering how all of them (except dragoon of course) have some tools to mitigate or heal in their kit. Or both in ninja's case.
But ye, would be nice to have something for the ridiculous CC chaining, but the next patch is coming in a few months :^)

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Originally Posted by Karasio

Fair, fair. IF any DPS were to have any kind of harder CC, I could only really see it on like bard and dancer really. But still at a significant cooldown. And I guess I don't play other melee jobs enough, considering how all of them (except dragoon of course) have some tools to mitigate or heal in their kit. Or both in ninja's case.
But ye, would be nice to have something for the ridiculous CC chaining, but the next patch is coming in a few months :^)

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???

DRG has a mitigation skill and a heal. Horrid roar does 2k potency and reduces the damage you take by 50% from players hit by roar and chaotic spring does 8k potency and 100% of the damage is converted into a heal.

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Originally Posted by Karasio

DPS jobs should not have hard CC period. Give them slows and whatever other shit but not roots or anything. Getting rooted by a range DPS as a melee is effectively a stun

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Generally speaking, classes with hard CC have lower DPS or lower burst than those without. Or those forms of CC are very limited (LBs, etc.) SGE, for example, does *way* more DPS than any other healer but has no CC at all. GNB does *way* more DPS than any other tank, but only has CC on its LB, and so on.

It's probably okay. Purify just needs a lower cooldown.