6.2 Dragoon potential changes/assessment of current (6.11)

As of 6.11, dragoon is in a really good place with possibly the most satisfying and coherent dps rotation at both level 90 and whilst leveling. The High-jump/mirage dive consolidation is a fair change, particularly now that there are measures against accidentally double weaving it. The shortened jump animation locks are also pretty good changes.

I am not sure what to expect in 6.2 with the announcement last live letter that DRG and AST were next up, but here are my thoughts:

Battle litany and life surge both affect (and effect) crit, which it seems the design team are looking to make less dominant. But the only way that's ever going to change is if they remove the damage scaling from it and make a crit a flat% boost, same as DH.

Dragon sight is slightly clunky without a macro, especially when you're expected to double weave it, so I could see a "dragon partner" style change with a preassigned party member. I don't think this would necessarily be better, as it'd be harder to choose a different target in the event of untimely death. Perhaps baking in a mouseover macro to it could help, but I'm certain that would upset people who don't like <mo>-type inputs.

I suppose people like complaining about beam-type aoes, but realistically that's more a problem with the tank's positioning or lack thereof than inherent to the dragoon. Circular AoEs would not be the answer to this, although if changed I do look forward to watching the samurai and dragoon suddenly evaporate because their battle effects covered the mob pack's aoe indicators. Most of the clunkiness in the beam seems to be trying to use it whilst player and target are moving. It's probably not, but I imagine it's to do with snapshotting and the distance between player and target.

Consolidation of Wheeling Thrust/F&C is a terrible idea for reasons that should be obvious to any and all.

As is adding potency to elusive jump.

A potency increase of say 40-80 on stardiver might make it feel a bit more meaty, but since it's an oGCD there's really quite a low limit on how high its potency can be. On a related note, I don't think making jumps GCDs would be a good move, particularly because the continuous figure-of-eight combo is a big part of the rotation feel.

There are other more bloated jobs that should probably be looked at first - reaper and samurai springing to mind, or empty jobs such as reaper* and summoner that could really do with the addition of another mechanic so they're not enjoying a healer-style rotation.

If reaper is the standard to which they aim to remold all jobs, I remain concerned.

*Below level 80

I agree with most of what you say. DRG is right now at its best state and it's quite concerning that they want to change it. What exactly brought them to think about DRG and not any other job in particular?

It needs small tweaks and QoL adjustments, but certainly not huge reworks in the middle of the expansion.

That said, the latest Mirage Dive change is dubious: while it got rid of the accidental double-weaving, the grace period added is too long, making double weaving it as tight as before the animation lock reduction. At this point they should just revert the change, since they couldn't anticipate that slapping a normal 1s recast time would bring it very close to the original 1.1s of jumps.

This tightness also causes issues in certain encounters like Dragonsong's Reprise, where you want to get an eye at specific points before a boss leaves, but that this change has made a bit hard to get unless HJ is used extremely early.

Stardiver should not get higher potency than it has now because then we start getting close to the territory of "my Stardiver didn't crit so my DPS fluctuates a lot" that plagues so many other jobs. It is Dragonfire Dive that needs a potency boost, or any kind of added effect/role to make it stand out, since it's a bit lacking for a 120s recast ability.

At this point, Dragon Sight should just be merged with LC, making the former a personal 60s 15-20% buff that is an upgrade to the latter and adjusting the potencies/damage of the rest of the kit depending on the choice made. Other people have advocated for the Dance Partner treatment, with Litany activating the eyes due to their shared 120s recast time.

To be honest, with the loss of the tether, the ability lost its main flavor so I'd just rather go with the first option. It frees one oGCD slot in our burst, and Litany would do too much if it gave the eyes to the DRG and the partner in addition to its normal effect.

There's been extensive discussion on the matter of DRG being busy and button bloat in this thread, should anyone be interested: https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...d-button-bloat.

im agree with all you are saying.

the only changes that DRG need is about the buffs, the rotation and everything else is perfect, straightforward and the most important, is FUN.

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Originally Posted by Aco505

Abbreviated for character count

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I think it should be possible to fine-tune the combined HJ/MD delay to an acceptable/usable level, but I agree that fixing something that wasn't broken wasn't the best move, although possibly the least bad option if they do have their heart set on it. At least it wasn't "fixed" as to the same extent as bard's wanderer's/pp. I have little to no information on Dragonsong's Reprise and its intricacies, so I'll take your word for it.

I had seen a few people complaining that Stardiver is a bit of a wet noodle of a capstone ability, but yes dragoon's lack of a singular strike is one of its strengths particularly in preventing how bad it feels to direct crit all your autoattacks around midare/blue midare that didn't crit. Looking at it, dragonfire dive is an even wimpier capstone ability, but I do like how it doesn't have a dropoff on multiple targets. It might be kind of fun if it spread chaos thrust too or had a small burn dot attached. I don't think it'd break any fights that matter, but would feel quite nice in dungeon w2w pulls.

I hadn't considered combining both 120s buffs before. While I'd sooner see the tether returned, even if comically long, that approach does have a certain tidyness to it. I am slightly against having such a broad range of buffs on a single button, I'm not sure there's many others that buff two categories simultaneously?

Thank you for the link, I managed to completely miss it when I was checking for other threads.

Am I the only one who liked the 15y tether? Between that and making Earthly Star a completely pointless ground target, it feels like they are slowly dumbing down any distance considerations. Just make every party heal and buff completely decoupled from distance and be done with it. It's not like new sprouts have much reason to learn about proper party positioning at this point anyway (or at least I no longer feel like I should even be trying to offer advice to the MCH hanging back in Narnia, considering the healing bloat too), might as well give up on that concept completely.

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Originally Posted by fulminating

I think it should be possible to fine-tune the combined HJ/MD delay to an acceptable/usable level

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Yeah, reducing the grace period to 0.5s, for example, or 0.8s to make it match HJ's animation lock could work too, but I can see other problems arising and then it not being fixed for even more weeks, so that's why MD should just go back to being its own button.

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Originally Posted by fulminating

I have little to no information on Dragonsong's Reprise and its intricacies

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This is just the most recent example, but these situations are not so uncommon in encounters, or having to double-weave HJ + MD without clipping at the end of the fight for a double life or in other scenarios such as dungeons.

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Originally Posted by fulminating

dragoon's lack of a singular strike is one of its strengths particularly in preventing how bad it feels to direct crit all your autoattacks around midare/blue midare that didn't crit

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Exactly. Stardiver deals 1240 oGCD potency over 2 minutes (not counting buffs). While it could get a bump in potency (let's say 700), it's other parts of the kit that would benefit more from it. DFD just needs something else because 300 potency every 2 minutes doesn't cut it. I'd rather it have falloff damage but stronger ST potency than stay as it is, though ideally it'd have a better role than just a hard-hitting button without any interaction. Perhaps it could "combo" with STD? Give resources?

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Originally Posted by fulminating

I'd sooner see the tether returned, even if comically long. I'm not sure there's many others that buff two categories simultaneously?

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I loved the tether and I'd rather it come back, but DS would need a lot of QoL improvements if it stayed like it is now because it's just so clunky. I guess that DNC's Standard Finish is similar to that idea of Litany activating the eyes, but with a buff instead of an attack.

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Originally Posted by ThorneDynasty

Am I the only one who liked the 15y tether?

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I see what you mean and I kind of agree with that. The problem is that more often than not the range was more of a hindrance than anything, especially now that there's a lot of intense mechanics during burst windows and also because of the need for a macro. You could not even reach your melee partner in Intemperance in P1S. The range was also 12 yalms, instead of the 15 yalms that you got in PvP...

I'd rather take this quality of life, even if it looks like it's dumbed down, and have the job be more complex in other aspects. In fact, I'd also appreciate a 20 yalm radius for Litany (and all buffs). For some reason, only BRD's buffs have that radius.

From what yoshida said, he alluded to two things with dragoon
1. reducing the amount of ogcd presses
2. A long term goal at getting rid of crit synergy which drg has in litany. So I'm expecting that will get the chop or a nasty nerf sadly.

These reworks are almost never good. Nearly every job thats been under them has gotten worse. Drk turned into warrior, smn made braindead 1 button rotation. Healers becoming an optional part of the game that only exist for a handful of fights. Machinist base breaking and not resolving any of its ping issues. Monk in its entirety.
In addition, when yoshida has done changes with removing synergy, the job ALWAYS came out worse. Bard and astrologian are perfect examples

Personally, I think what Dragoon needs is its nastrond phase to get something new. Currently dragoon's basically unchanged since stormblood. Shb and Ew was just aoe, qol and a repeat of level 30-50 with the exception of wyrmwind thrust in place of spineshatter. Its just one long rotation with little depth but very strict buff usage pattern in EW though I digress since EW and Shb job changes were a mistake overall and yoshida hates anything resembling job depth that isn't his beloved black mage.


What I'm expecting however is some ogcds being cut, likely dragonsight and litany, and whatever comes out to be worse than before since samurai has shown that not even dps are safe anymore

As for what I expect, Dragonsight will get axed and Battle Litany turned into a 5% damage buff. For oGCD pruning, they'll remove Life of the Dragon and make Nastrond a separate button that cost two eyes, and upgrades to Stardiver at 80.

As for what I want, nothing really. The job is fun as is, because it's fast and hectic. Maybe turn Dragonsight into a toggle that buffs our ally on Lance Charge or Battle Litany. It might be interesting if Dragonfire Dive added an eye so we could theoretically Life in the opener, but they're not going to do anything that makes the opener even busier.

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Originally Posted by Recon1o6

From what yoshida said, he alluded to two things with dragoon
1. reducing the amount of ogcd presses
2. A long term goal at getting rid of crit synergy which drg has in litany. So I'm expecting that will get the chop or a nasty nerf sadly.

Personally, I think what Dragoon needs is its nastrond phase to get something new. Currently dragoon's basically unchanged since stormblood. Shb and Ew was just aoe, qol and a repeat of level 30-50 with the exception of wyrmwind thrust in place of spineshatter. Its just one long rotation with little depth but very strict buff usage pattern in EW

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They gave us extra charges in the expansion, yet suddenly oGCDs are a problem? We literally only press 2 more buttons in 2-min burst windows than in ShB: one Spineshatter Dive and one Wyrmwind Thrust. In some cases, we do have a Life Surge or an extra WWT, but it depends on how things line up, as the change to Heavens' Thrust's potency means that you almost never want to use LS on a 5th GCD positional.

Crit synergy would be easily addressed if they followed the suggestion laid out in this post (https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post5880390).

I don't think that the fact that the job hasn't changed too much is bad. If something's good and already works, then it doesn't have to necessarily change. Just polishing, extra tuning. This is what BLM has been getting every expansion: little additions to round up the kit. Why is it DRG that needs to be changed and not BLM or any other job? Big reworks should happen at the beginning of an expansion anyway...

For what it's worth, I believe that an oGCD like Life Surge is good for the job. Yes, right now it's a bit mindless in its use (there should be more instances in which you can use it, not only HT), but it's the only oGCD that interacts with our GCDs and that makes us think a little bit outside burst windows. While many people want it to disappear, it does add a layer that would require some kind of replacement if it was cut. The fact that our GCDs are strict is intended due to how DRG is all about managing oGCDs.

If they want to reduce our buffs from 3 to 2, I'm fine with that. It saves a bit of space. I'd rather not have these changes, but I can compromise. Removing abilities from the only melee that is oGCD-focused would strip it of its identity and make the game less interesting: not all jobs need to be the same, and there's other oGCD jobs out there (GNB or DRK to name a few), will they be changed too?

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Originally Posted by YukiB

As for what I expect, Dragonsight will get axed and Battle Litany turned into a 5% damage buff. For oGCD pruning, they'll remove Life of the Dragon and make Nastrond a separate button that cost two eyes, and upgrades to Stardiver at 80.

As for what I want, nothing really. The job is fun as is, because it's fast and hectic. Maybe turn Dragonsight into a toggle that buffs our ally on Lance Charge or Battle Litany. It might be interesting if Dragonfire Dive added an eye so we could theoretically Life in the opener, but they're not going to do anything that makes the opener even busier.

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Removing Life of the Dragon would be like removing Astral Fire for BLM, that's not going to happen.

DFD giving an eye requires careful consideration because while it'd allow for a Life window in the opener, it may mess eye management for the whole fight. For instance, we'd enter the first 2-min burst with 1 eye stored, and then get two more immediately through HJ and DFD. If our gauge could store three eyes, but Life only required two... then perhaps, but if that happened, how do you control when you enter or not with Geirskogul? It'd just enter if we have two eyes? And what if we wanted to delay a life with two eyes due to encounter timing?

Life would probably require a rework in the way we enter it if DFD was going to give an eye directly. Perhaps the most elegant solution to giving DRG a Life in the opener would just be to allow us to start duties with 2 eyes. However, the job is tuned with having no Life in the opener, and this becomes obvious in fights like P3S in the reopener after adds or P4-2S if going for a full resource run, when DRG can get insane amounts of potency due to having everything, which I might add is also extremely satisfying!

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Originally Posted by Aco505

Removing Life of the Dragon would be like removing Astral Fire for BLM, that's not going to happen.

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It wouldn't happen to BLM. Yoshi P plays BLM.

He doesn't play DRG, so nothing's off the table :D

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Originally Posted by YukiB

As for what I want, nothing really. The job is fun as is, because it's fast and hectic.

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It's interesting to read that. To me Dragoon is fun because to me feels unhectic. It's great because it has no randoms, you can mostly do your rotation in peace while watching it for the mechanics. It has at long nice figure eight that moves like a song with the gcds on the white keys of a piano and the ogcd on the black keys. For me it plays smoother than any other job. An endless beautiful melody at level 90 that just moves from one action to another. It entrancing to play.

And, yeah, I either want to have my tether back or me not to have to target people anymore during the fight. That's only part that doesn't feel smooth to me.

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Originally Posted by Ilisidi

It's interesting to read that. To me Dragoon is fun because to me feels unhectic. It's great because it has no randoms, you can mostly do your rotation in peace while watching it for the mechanics. It has at long nice figure eight that moves like a song with the gcds on the white keys of a piano and the ogcd on the black keys. For me it plays smoother than any other job. An endless beautiful melody at level 90 that just moves from one action to another. It entrancing to play.

And, yeah, I either want to have my tether back or me not to have to target people anymore during the fight. That's only part that doesn't feel smooth to me.

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I don't play it much, so it's hectic for me. I can certainly see how it will smooth out with more muscle memory and proper cooldown alignment. Which is a good thing, because it means the skill ceiling is still above water.

I would rather see sight removed than turned into some unfun dance partner style ability, the ability is already almost dead anyways.
I would also like to be able to burst higher than a tank on the opener, I don't see what could go wrong with having life at the start of a fight like Monk's Meditation ability allows them and also spineshatter turned into a 0 potency mobility ability would be great.
Other than that, I would prefer if it gets very few changes, it already feels good enough.

Hopefully SE destroying SMN and SAM is good timing for us and all the drama it caused will make them scrap whatever bad changes they had in store for DRG and AST.

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Originally Posted by ZiraZ

I would rather see sight removed than turned into some unfun dance partner style ability, the ability is already almost dead anyways.
I would also like to be able to burst higher than a tank on the opener, I don't see what could go wrong with having life at the start of a fight like Monk's Meditation ability allows them and also spineshatter turned into a 0 potency mobility ability would be great.
Other than that, I would prefer if it gets very few changes, it already feels good enough.

Hopefully SE destroying SMN and SAM is good timing for us and all the drama it caused will make them scrap whatever bad changes they had in store for DRG and AST.

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Spineshatter becoming a simple gapcloser would probably be more like Corps-a-Corps or Hissatsu: Gyoten than a 0 pot gap closer in that case.

Square Enix willing to change Classes could only be done at two point.

Either, the gameplay of the class in not conveniant at all, Like MCH was at Stormblood for exemple, Or the classes, while being loved by everyone, is reaching it's potential limit.

It seems that Dragoon is reaching it's limit. With 3 buff + 1 for the next attack, 4 Jump oGCD, 3 Line AoE oGCD (for a total of 7). Although being the "Slowest" DPS in GCD, it's well designed by having many oGCD, that's why the jobs feels a lot faster when reaching higher level.

To be honest, Dragoon may be at his peak right now, but sadly, their is little room for improving the class. The burst phase of the DRG is extremely busy, just look at all of his abilities (Even more true in the opener cause you have 2 Spineshatter to place)

Reducing the animation lock on jump was a pretty good move. This allow the Dragoon to be more flexible somehow. But the problem remains the same for future update : "What can we add or change from lvl 92 to 100 ?".

Please name 4-5 skill addition/change you'll make to the DRG. Honestly it's really hard to do on a well designed job.

Some kind of downtime ability. Having a jump attack the behaves like the PvP LB, but with mandatory airtime could work. Maybe giving DPS on invuln type skill would break something in PvE, I don't know, but it would be fun to actually have the classic Dragoon jump behavior.

The transition to LotD could be more exciting than just pressing a line AoE, have an Estinien style dynamic entry into your red aura with Stardiver. Replace Stardiver during LotD with resource build up to a proper finisher move. Doesn't need to fundamentally change how the rotation works, just add more fanfare to LotD.

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Originally Posted by ZiraZ

I would also like to be able to burst higher than a tank on the opener, I don't see what could go wrong with having life at the start of a fight like Monk's Meditation ability allows them and also spineshatter turned into a 0 potency mobility ability would be great.
Other than that, I would prefer if it gets very few changes, it already feels good enough.

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I don't personally dislike not having all resources in the opener because if we did have them, we'd have to be nerfed as DRG would be too strong otherwise. MNKs cannot use Phantom Rush in the opener and they're designed to not be able to use it in even minute bursts so in that sense we're kinda similar. I'd love to be able to unleash everything in the opener just like in P3S after adds though because it's just too fun.

I like Spineshatter Dive as a damage oGCD (it should probably hit a tiny bit harder actually). It allows us to use 5 jumps in even-minute bursts. Other jobs also have oGCD on charges stacked during buffs. Perhaps it's not the most engaging thing ever, but it's part of the satisfying feel of funneling all the oGCDs in proper order in a burst. If anything, they could change how SPD functions in the future so it has more depth in its use.

The change to Elusive Jump's animation makes it really good now, but if they ended up deciding to change SPD into a pure gap closer like Thunderclap, then I hope they'd give us more jumps, because we'd be down to 3 and that'd be quite sad imho.

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Originally Posted by TabrisOmbrelame

It seems that Dragoon is reaching it's limit. With 3 buff + 1 for the next attack, 4 Jump oGCD, 3 Line AoE oGCD (for a total of 7). Although being the "Slowest" DPS in GCD, it's well designed by having many oGCD, that's why the jobs feels a lot faster when reaching higher level.

To be honest, Dragoon may be at his peak right now, but sadly, their is little room for improving the class. The burst phase of the DRG is extremely busy, just look at all of his abilities (Even more true in the opener cause you have 2 Spineshatter to place)

Reducing the animation lock on jump was a pretty good move. This allow the Dragoon to be more flexible somehow. But the problem remains the same for future update : "What can we add or change from lvl 92 to 100 ?".

Please name 4-5 skill addition/change you'll make to the DRG. Honestly it's really hard to do on a well designed job.

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I agree that DS could just become an upgrade to LC as a personal buff with LC's animation having the swirling dragon from DS as otherwise it'd look weird to point at the boss as it does now... That'd reduce the buffs to two, so pretty standard. Then increase Litany's duration (for the DRG at least) and radius to 20 and the job would be more flexible in the bursts.

Now, as for the other oGCDs and how busy it is, it is not busier than many other jobs. What about NIN, DRK, GNB, MNK, SAM, MCH, DNC? Are these not busy during bursts too? There's a job for each playstyle and there's nothing wrong if DRG is oGCD heavy like DRK or GNB.

The question of "what can we add to the job in 7.0" could be asked for any other job. What did BLM get in EW? Mainly Paradox and one extra Xeno every 120s, plus an extra charge of Triple Cast and Sharpcast. Did this fundamentally change the way the job works? Not really.

What could we add to NIN, to DRK? I find that there's other jobs with more problems than DRG. What can you add to RPR without bloating the hotbars?

In the case of DRG, what could be added is new ways for oGCDs to combo between themselves or to complement the GCDs. DFD could improve the power of the next STD or vice versa. Life could change the way our GCDs work so that they're stronger, we could have the ability to store more eyes or scales (this one should exist already - we should be able to store three scales for a cost of two). Vorpal Thrust and Piercing Talon could get new, improved versions, etc. In fact, Vorpal Thrust is the only GCD in our arsenal without a defined role, so it could also get one.

What we definitely don't need is more buttons used exclusively for AoE. If there's one thing that defines DRG is that everything except the GCDs works in every single scenario.

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Originally Posted by TabrisOmbrelame

Square Enix willing to change Classes could only be done at two point.

Either, the gameplay of the class in not conveniant at all, Like MCH was at Stormblood for exemple, Or the classes, while being loved by everyone, is reaching it's potential limit.

It seems that Dragoon is reaching it's limit. With 3 buff + 1 for the next attack, 4 Jump oGCD, 3 Line AoE oGCD (for a total of 7). Although being the "Slowest" DPS in GCD, it's well designed by having many oGCD, that's why the jobs feels a lot faster when reaching higher level.

To be honest, Dragoon may be at his peak right now, but sadly, their is little room for improving the class. The burst phase of the DRG is extremely busy, just look at all of his abilities (Even more true in the opener cause you have 2 Spineshatter to place)

Reducing the animation lock on jump was a pretty good move. This allow the Dragoon to be more flexible somehow. But the problem remains the same for future update : "What can we add or change from lvl 92 to 100 ?".

Please name 4-5 skill addition/change you'll make to the DRG. Honestly it's really hard to do on a well designed job.

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Having a well designed and fun to play job that needs little to no changes expac to expac is not a problem to be solved. It's fine to keep it going as-is with only aesthetic updates and potency adjustments a la Heavensthrust and Chaotic Spring.

Have Vorpal Thrust and Disembowel become new skills when coming off of Raiden Thrust, give Dragonfire Dive and Spineshatter their own High Jump equivalents. Have the fifth combo hit become something different than it would be as fourth combo hit.

New player (sprout) here, currently doing Stormblood lvl70 instances before moving onto Shadowbringers. When I first setup my account I picked DRG because I thought it sounded cool, leaping all about the battlefield with a huge spear. I am so glad I did. I have been having an absolute blast. I honestly can't imagine how any of the other jobs could be more enjoyable than this. If you break it down it's really just a series of fixed rotations that you just rinse and repeat, but a lot of the component skills are positional-based, which adds a really cool element to it. It's not a static role - there's so much moving around all the time to make the most out of your abilities, and it's just so much fun. Plus things like doing Evasive Dive to leap out of a glowing red circle, Jump to get back to the boss afterwards. It's just great. That whole gaze of the brood mechanic you get at lvl70 is interesting as well, where different abilities get stronger when it's active. It's a great concept. I only have one ability that uses it at the moment, but am looking forward to getting more later on. Around the end of Heavensward I did start to struggle a bit with the sheer number of abilities but once I grouped my hotbars more logically everything just clicked into place much better.

People say when you get to 90 you should switch to another class but I can't really see myself doing that at all. DRG is just so much fun. It does seem to be relatively rare though, compared to some other DPS classes. The Achievements say I've done 84 instances so far, and I think I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of times I've met another DRG in one. On the rare occasions where there is a fellow DRG in the group I always make sure they're the one who benefits from my Left Eye 5% damage buff whenever I use it.

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Originally Posted by Aco505

Now, as for the other oGCDs and how busy it is, it is not busier than many other jobs. What about NIN, DRK, GNB, MNK, SAM, MCH, DNC? Are these not busy during bursts too? There's a job for each playstyle and there's nothing wrong if DRG is oGCD heavy like DRK or GNB.

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I didn't mean to compare the DRG with other classes, because we were focusing on the DRG itself.

On the other hand, the DRG got a busy burst, that's a fact. I didn't say anything about that being bad either, for now at least. The only problem will be for the dev. Having a job already busy like all those you mentionned will cause the developper either to focus on unneeded point or completely/Partially rework them.

I say that, but for some classes their is still room to work with. DRG is an amazing class right now, but like I said, maybe the dev are facing a wall in his progression.

What can be done for the DRG may be a slight alteration to some of his oGCD, maybe an upgraded Spineshatter dive (More potency), or a Single target variation for the Big Red Jump (With shared cooldown), maybe reworking one or two of his buff (Saving some button bloat by the same occasion).

All those are idea, But I agree on the fact that DRG isn't the class that need a rework right now. Samourai is in a more precarious situation, and I think that should be a priority.

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Originally Posted by Cybylt

Having a well designed and fun to play job that needs little to no changes expac to expac is not a problem to be solved. It's fine to keep it going as-is with only aesthetic updates and potency adjustments a la Heavensthrust and Chaotic Spring.

Have Vorpal Thrust and Disembowel become new skills when coming off of Raiden Thrust, give Dragonfire Dive and Spineshatter their own High Jump equivalents. Have the fifth combo hit become something different than it would be as fourth combo hit.

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I agree with you, but their is some point i need to clarify too.

Having a class who got aesthetic + potency upgrade is a well known mechanics every expansion for healers, for exemple. In fact, it's not as bad as it could be. What's more interesting is too add something more behind that. As we can see, DRG got that double dragon head after making two Raiden thrust, added at EW. The mecanics behind that, while being extremely simple to do, is still interesting. As for now, the DRG as little to manage ressource-wise, but still got Buff, and many oGCD to use. I fear that adding more could make the job too busy. I can only suggest that some skill will switch for new one, allowing the DRG to become a whole new class without touching to the core of what it actually is. At least, I hope so.

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Originally Posted by TabrisOmbrelame

On the other hand, the DRG got a busy burst, that's a fact. I didn't say anything about that being bad either, for now at least.

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Oh yeah, DRG is bursty during even windows, that's true. I wasn't saying that you were against it, since you pointed out that you liked it anyway. Perhaps it came out that way, but I was just trying to provide counterarguments to this idea that busy jobs need to be adjusted for some reason. It depends on the job and it depends on other factors, because if we're gonna adjust a specific job due to it being busy, then we'd have to adjust them all, but that's boring. There's other jobs that are less busy or with a different gameplay. That's the beauty of the game, it has a bit for everyone!

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Originally Posted by Aco505

Oh yeah, DRG is bursty during even windows, that's true. I wasn't saying that you were against it, since you pointed out that you liked it anyway. Perhaps it came out that way, but I was just trying to provide counterarguments to this idea that busy jobs need to be adjusted for some reason. It depends on the job and it depends on other factors, because if we're gonna adjust a specific job due to it being busy, then we'd have to adjust them all, but that's boring. There's other jobs that are less busy or with a different gameplay. That's the beauty of the game, it has a bit for everyone!

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Now your talking ! I understand better this answer.

Like you said, adujstement depends on factors. A jobs can be adjusted for being too busy, or the complete opposite, being too boring. Adjustement can come in various way just like all the problem they have. When adjusting a class, one must not forget about the other or this will cause some balance problem.

Like I said, in my last message, the DRG is a busy class, and it's gameplay reach near perfection for some player. It's a busy class that is satisfying to play. Nobody which the class to be reworked right now. What I mean to say is a rework can happen for various reason, and even if a class is really good, the dev may reach a wall in the progression of the class, forcing them to make huge change. I wasn't exactly into the idea that busy job absolutely need to be adjusted but more likely that adjustement could happen due to the limit they'll eventually reach in the near future.

I think we can all agree on the fact that DRG shouldn't be the class to focus on right now. I still believe Samourai need a huge amount of work to be redone properly, and that is the most important thing to do right now.

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Originally Posted by TabrisOmbrelame

I agree with you, but their is some point i need to clarify too.

Having a class who got aesthetic + potency upgrade is a well known mechanics every expansion for healers, for exemple. In fact, it's not as bad as it could be. What's more interesting is too add something more behind that. As we can see, DRG got that double dragon head after making two Raiden thrust, added at EW. The mecanics behind that, while being extremely simple to do, is still interesting. As for now, the DRG as little to manage ressource-wise, but still got Buff, and many oGCD to use. I fear that adding more could make the job too busy. I can only suggest that some skill will switch for new one, allowing the DRG to become a whole new class without touching to the core of what it actually is. At least, I hope so.

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Healers get that sort of update treatment, people are upset with the design with healers. These are both true but they're not exactly related issues there. People's problem with healers is that there is nothing going on with their damage kits they're happy with the design of Dragoon and it currently walks a solid balance of complexity, rhythm, and output.

Going without changing a design people don't like isn't the same as keeping one that they do.

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Originally Posted by ElariaIlostia

People say when you get to 90 you should switch to another class but I can't really see myself doing that at all. DRG is just so much fun.

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idk who's saying that but don't listen to them. play what's fun for you. to me, DRG is the most fun melee dps at the moment (SAM was my favorite before the 6.1 changes). i really hope whatever changes they had for DRG in 6.2 don't happen; it feels great to play.

the thing that is concerning is that instead of pooling all these changes for 7.0 (you know ... an EXPANSION) they're already working on these and removing aspects of a job people love, because their future goal is to remove crit (or mitigate it's importance)
it's fine if they want to get away from Crit (an problem THEY created mind you) but give us something in return.
like with Samurai and Kaiten, they remove Kaiten and that's it ... nothing new to replace it, instead they could remove Kaiten in 7.0 and add something new to the rotation.(or rework it, since the animation is the best, twirling your blade straight into the sheath and then let out an massive hit, it was truly an add-on to Iaitsu)

now we're seeing that here with DRG and AST being next on the chopping block.

remember how lackluster DRK and SCH felt when they got announced for Endwalker, and when the media tour changes were laughable at best? they could fix this by simple pooling it for 7.0 and BOOM all these changes and backend changes.
but nope, let's do these half assed reworks just to make the devs life slightly easier, while ruining the core feeling of a job for the player.

i truly hope that Yoshi is speaking the truth when he always says "we're reading the official forums, so keep feedback coming there" because concidering how quiet he is on the Samurai backlash (and it's really an big pushback, haven't seen much like it yet)
i doubt he and his team are reading the forums (also FF14 ISN'T an japanese only game, it's kinda stupid that the devs can't even read/write english, when are we gonna get an dedicated community manager who actively posts on these forums to make up for it?)

Man, I wish it was just gonna be simple stuff like making Doom spike available at an earlier level or making dragonsight into something you don't need a Macro for to get good results. But after the changes Samurai got i am honestly worried for Dragoons future.
I honestly half expect dumb stuff like Dragonfire dive being an Aoe version of Jump, Auto crits on most skills because you could just Life surge them, spineshatter being turned into a not thunderclap clone. I really don't wanna see that because I love the job quite a lot. It's got such a well build rotation and it's just plain fun to look at with all of its jumps even if you can't double weave in alot of cases because of that. It's something different from other jobs who instead have a faster ogcd by default. Don't take that away.

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Originally Posted by Aco505

I agree with most of what you say. DRG is right now at its best state and it's quite concerning that they want to change it. What exactly brought them to think about DRG and not any other job in particular?

It needs small tweaks and QoL adjustments, but certainly not huge reworks in the middle of the expansion.

That said, the latest Mirage Dive change is dubious: while it got rid of the accidental double-weaving, the grace period added is too long, making double weaving it as tight as before the animation lock reduction. At this point they should just revert the change, since they couldn't anticipate that slapping a normal 1s recast time would bring it very close to the original 1.1s of jumps.

This tightness also causes issues in certain encounters like Dragonsong's Reprise, where you want to get an eye at specific points before a boss leaves, but that this change has made a bit hard to get unless HJ is used extremely early.

Stardiver should not get higher potency than it has now because then we start getting close to the territory of "my Stardiver didn't crit so my DPS fluctuates a lot" that plagues so many other jobs. It is Dragonfire Dive that needs a potency boost, or any kind of added effect/role to make it stand out, since it's a bit lacking for a 120s recast ability.
At this point, Dragon Sight should just be merged with LC, making the former a personal 60s 15-20% buff that is an upgrade to the latter and adjusting the potencies/damage of the rest of the kit depending on the choice made. Other people have advocated for the Dance Partner treatment, with Litany activating the eyes due to their shared 120s recast time.

To be honest, with the loss of the tether, the ability lost its main flavor so I'd just rather go with the first option. It frees one oGCD slot in our burst, and Litany would do too much if it gave the eyes to the DRG and the partner in addition to its normal effect.

There's been extensive discussion on the matter of DRG being busy and button bloat in this thread, should anyone be interested: https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...d-button-bloat.

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Several of ur points r exactly what i was thinking. The mirage dive lockout is pretty annoying, too tough to double weave now, and i can understand the DSR reference completely. Lot of the windows r just over 30 secs long and squeezing in that mirage dive is likely very challenging.

What needs to happen for dragon sight is queueable macro functionality.

On the whole the rotation is nicely fleshed out (maybe a clean 30 sec cycle would be nice in the next expansion), so only minor tweaks r needed. Dragonfire dive needs a boost, for a 2 min CD it feels extremely lackluster. Just slap some single target dmg on it with x% falloff on aoe hits.

There is the bit of anti synergy with the auto crit and crit buffs, but i think yoshi p has some major overhaul in store for crit things down the road.

DRG is even more a blast to play than in SHB. It is my new go to melee after the SAM butchery. If they ruin this job too by completely unnecessary changes im gonna be pissed.

PS: oh it would prolly be a good idea to make the first aoe available MUCH earlier for some lvling QoL.

I don't know who told you that, but as of the latest patch and the new ultimate, DRG's sitting at the head of the table, according to logs. If you like it and want to raid, there's no reason to switch to another class!