The P1N solo tank thread got moved to tank forums, here's why it shouldn't have been.

Among other things we were talking about the healing aspects of it, specifically the low healing required.

Two completely different communities focus on different perspectives with completely different mindsets about how they approach content.

On the one hand, cool it's neat in a vacuum that one role (or in this case 1ish job out of that role due to self-sustain) can do something ridiculous when soloing if played really skillfully.

On the other....what exactly can the other roles do by themselves again? Oh, be bored? What a thrilling unique capability. The fact that tanks have WAY more defense than the other two roles while having damage output that's near a DPS and single-target healing that covers the pathetic outgoing damage this game tosses at you means tanks are just OP.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

On the one hand, cool it's neat in a vacuum that one role (or in this case 1ish job out of that role due to self-sustain) can do something ridiculous when soloing if played really skillfully.

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I said this in the other thread, and said it in other threads before that, and apparently I still gotta keep saying it...

It's not a warrior-specific problem. A key point (that apparently even the moderators missed) about the other thread is that every tank except DRK can do this (but pair a DRK with a GNB or WAR and they can). It's not a one-job issue. It's about rolling enough healing into the tank role that content doesn't actually need healers anymore, except in 2 of the 4 current savage-level fights.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

...and single-target healing that covers the pathetic outgoing damage this game tosses at you means tanks are just OP.

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I'd see the problem being more with the pathetic outgoing damage. Even if you nerf tanks, the outgoing damage is still pathetic. Healers will still be bored. Tanks will be bored. Nothing changes.

They gave tanks and heals the tools to handle large amounts of damage. Great, I'm all for it ...except where's the large amounts of damage?

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

where's the large amounts of damage?

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In the same place as the scary need to constantly twitch your finger over a heal button just in case a party-wide hit happens more than once a minute or so. Imaginationland. :cool:

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

They gave tanks and heals the tools to handle large amounts of damage. Great, I'm all for it ...except where's the large amounts of damage?

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I was actually talking to my girlfriend about this, this morning.
I would be fine with our current kits(mostly) if content actually reflected that. I shouldn't have to go into very specific content(that I can't even do because of health reasons) to make myself feel like an actual healer.

I've said this before in another thread somewhere, but it's both funny and sad when compared to 14, P2W Chinese/Korean MMOs have better designed healers, because their healers are designed for the content!

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

I'd see the problem being more with the pathetic outgoing damage. Even if you nerf tanks, the outgoing damage is still pathetic. Healers will still be bored. Tanks will be bored. Nothing changes.

They gave tanks and heals the tools to handle large amounts of damage. Great, I'm all for it ...except where's the large amounts of damage?

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Pretty much this.

I don't mind tanks having self sustain. I don't mind dps having self sustain

I mind tanks and dps having self sustain on top of low healing requirements that essentially make us redundant or, (gasp) unneeded in content. This is the problem ESO faces with their healers and support we really shouldn't be going down this thread.

Dps sustain for the most part is balanced. Blood bath and Second Wind and Curing Waltz are on long enough CDs. Tank sustain is arguably also balanced. What isn't is the damage we're getting. Its too low. Plain and simple. The fix isn't simple (hells no I won't claim that) but the issue is clear as day.

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Originally Posted by ASkellington

Pretty much this.

I don't mind tanks having self sustain. I don't mind dps having self sustain

I mind tanks and dps having self sustain on top of low healing requirements that essentially make us redundant or, (gasp) unneeded in content. This is the problem ESO faces with their healers and support we really shouldn't be going down this thread.

Dps sustain for the most part is balanced. Blood bath and Second Wind and Curing Waltz are on long enough CDs. Tank sustain is arguably also balanced. What isn't is the damage we're getting. Its too low. Plain and simple. The fix isn't simple (hells no I won't claim that) but the issue is clear as day.

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Oh don't get me started on ESO and their healer problem. I quit that game for a reason and would hate to have to leave FFXIV for the same reason

The hilarious part is that the people who are screwing up that badly can’t be recovered from because a good portion of the avoidable damage can and will frequently outright kill the non-tank that screwed up which invariably causes a wipe if it happens within the first third to half of a mechanics check. P2S is full of these moments where bad positioning just kills you instead of allowing for recovery because the water is the obvious mechanic you’re supposed to avoid. P3S is pure execution and doesn’t leave room to react to mistakes as you are already busy executing plan A while others are learning.


Damage is both too high and too low, depending on the context we use. If that doesn’t highlight the problem nothing will.

Its easier for all the tanks gaslighting healers now.

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Originally Posted by deadman1204

Its easier for all the tanks gaslighting healers now.

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Admittedly, the shift has kind of made it feel like "We don't need to address problems if we can just sic portions of the community upon other portions thereof. Look! They're saying it wasn't a problem all along. Those narrowly invested in their capacity over the overall health of the game say there's reasonable doubt, so there's no need to change a thing."

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Those narrowly invested in their capacity over the overall health of the game say there's reasonable doubt, so there's no need to change a thing."

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Disagreement is not "gaslighting". Not agreeing with the assessment of tank healing capabilities being a major problem for the health of the game is not coming from a position of trying to protect the current state of tanks in every case. Sometimes people just don't come to the same conclusions.

The cause of the complaints from healers is a bit more systemic to the design of the game then some abilities given to the tanks this expansion. There has not been some massive shift in gameplay experience due to the healing capacity tanks now have, and if they are nerfed into a state of being irrelevant or just removed I believe very little would change.

All the problems with healers being discussed around the topic of tank heals have existed before this expansion and will continue to exist if the devs remain committed to the course they are on, regardless of what they do with tanks.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

I'd see the problem being more with the pathetic outgoing damage. Even if you nerf tanks, the outgoing damage is still pathetic. Healers will still be bored. Tanks will be bored. Nothing changes.

They gave tanks and heals the tools to handle large amounts of damage. Great, I'm all for it ...except where's the large amounts of damage?

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This is the root problem I was arguing in the other thread. Nerfing tank sustain wouldn't accomplish anything except make the Healers toss the odd oGCD in between their riveting Glare/Broil/Malefic/Dosis spam. Furthermore, it just lessens the gameplay of tanks without actually solving the problem.

Unfortunately, with the runaway success FF has been having. I don't see the dev team feeling a need to change anything despite how horrendous their healing design is. What's frustrating is we aren't even asking for some crazy high damage numbers. I just want to heal once in a blue moon and/or have some meaningful gameplay beyond spamming 1 a bazillion times.

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Originally Posted by Rhais

Disagreement is not "gaslighting". Not agreeing with the assessment of tank healing capabilities being a major problem for the health of the game is not coming from a position of trying to protect the current state of tanks in every case. Sometimes people just don't come to the same conclusions.

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Oh, I agree that it's a much larger systemic issue first and foremost. Nor do I think tank self-healing is an inherently bad thing. It's another means of sustain, and compared to percentile mitigation alone, is arguably both more fun to play around and has more carry and recovery potential without being any stronger in "real" content.

My issue is with a role getting increases to its maximal eHP, its sustain, and its damage, to a degree that greatly outshine the other roles' increases. Even if content had increased its damage dealt to situate tanks' increased power, that shift in relative power between roles wouldn't quite be warranted. Give me less passive mitigation, more dependence on skill, perhaps a trickier rotation, etc., and I'd be all for EW's increases to (non-DRK) tanks' self-sustain. Done well, it's more active impact, it's more to do, and it's more fun (though that's truer for the more sharply timeable self-heals than the likes of Aurora or bs like Storm's Path, Souleater, or Brutal Shell).

But let's not pretend that thread isn't by now dotted with players saying that it wouldn't matter even if, say, Warrior could solo current Savage content (all while DRK can only be edgy in a corner), or any outside impacts of that above shift in power is irrelevant to the larger game or that 'Warriors should just keep doing as Warriors do' (as if that hadn't changed in degree between ShB and EW).

The ultimate evolution of this game will be eight DPS players without HP bars doing as much damage as they can while performing pass-fail raidwipe mechanics. It's not that they've made tanks too powerful this expansion. It's that they've rendered the skill level of the player in that tank slot completely irrelevant.

Oh, and there are now reports of an 8 WAR P1S clear in the tank thread, if you're interested.

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Originally Posted by Rhais

Disagreement is not "gaslighting". Not agreeing with the assessment of tank healing capabilities being a major problem for the health of the game is not coming from a position of trying to protect the current state of tanks in every case. Sometimes people just don't come to the same conclusions.

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The fact that tanks can solo current dungeon bosses while dead party members are mere spectators is proof of bad game design.

The fact that EX content can be done without a healer due to the rampant self heals across all the non-healer jobs is proof of bad game design.

The fact that a normal raid boss can be solod at all if proof of bad game design.

Respectfully, saying otherwise is simply white knighting. It is gaslighting, saying a problem doesn't exist when it CLEARLY does.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Oh, and there are now reports of an 8 WAR P1S clear in the tank thread, if you're interested.

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Saw that as well. Bet they're being begged not to release that video at this point ><

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FKVTp0Fa...jpg&name=large

In other news, all tanks cleared P1N solo except DRK.
So yeah, its not a WAR issue but we already knew that much.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

The fact that tanks can solo current dungeon bosses while dead party members are mere spectators is proof of bad game design.

The fact that EX content can be done without a healer due to the rampant self heals across all the non-healer jobs is proof of bad game design.

The fact that a normal raid boss can be solod at all if proof of bad game design.

Respectfully, saying otherwise is simply white knighting. It is gaslighting, saying a problem doesn't exist when it CLEARLY does.



Saw that as well. Bet they're being begged not to release that video at this point ><

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FKVTp0Fa...jpg&name=large

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You obviously did not bother to read the rest of my post, or have major reading comprehension problems. I agree there are very large design issues with the game, however tank heals are neither the root cause or major factor of the bad design.

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Originally Posted by Rhais

You obviously did not bother to read the rest of my post, or have major reading comprehension problems. I agree there are very large design issues with the game, however tank heals are neither the root cause or major factor of the bad design.

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No, but tank sustain highlights and boldens these issues.

Fact is, they shouldn't have given tanks more sustain if they weren't going to increase the healing requirements. Now they're in the position where they either have to:

- nerf/remove tank sustain because they aren't going to increase unavoidable damage which, I'll note with bold italics and underline, will fix absolutely nothing as we'll just be going back to square one

- or fix encounter design to match the fact that, tanks have heals, dps also have heals (outside of BB and SW), and we have an entire healer role on top of that

I don't envy them for trying to address this issue, but they're the ones that caused it in the first place. Healers have been complaining there wasn't enough to heal as is, and then they made that worse with this expansion. It was a dumb decision on their part.

Thread surfing it can be funny to jump from one decrying tank healing and when you jump into another, they talk about how maybe they should give some tanks even more self-healing.

Anyway, considering what P1N is, I would not be super concerned until you tell me about like P2N being soloed.

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Originally Posted by Rhais

You obviously did not bother to read the rest of my post, or have major reading comprehension problems.

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When you have nothing else to really argue, resulting to personal attacks is a really bad look.

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Originally Posted by Rhais

I agree there are very large design issues with the game, however tank heals are neither the root cause or major factor of the bad design.

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That's exactly what a lot of people have argued. It's a mix of low outgoing boss damage as well as great tank self sustain.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

When you have nothing else to really argue, resulting to personal attacks is a really bad look.



That's exactly what a lot of people have argued. It's a mix of low outgoing boss damage as well as great tank self sustain.

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What you wrote was indicative of either not reading all of my post or not comprehending what I wrote fairly clearly. Stating that is not a personal attack. I did not say that everything is fine with the state of the game and job design had no issues so there was no reason to respond with a list pointing out that there are issues with the current state of the game. I was not denying the problems or "white knighting".

My opinion however is that as long as the devs put priority on accessibility and not stressing out players with the possibility of failure things are not going to improve much. Gameplay for both healers and tanks is dull and unengaging as a result and focusing on something specific like tank heals is trying to address the symptoms while ignoring the disease. It will not improve the condition of the game.

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Originally Posted by Rhais

What you wrote was indicative of either not reading all of my post or not comprehending what I wrote fairly clearly. Stating that is not a personal attack. I did not say that everything is fine with the state of the game and job design had no issues so there was no reason to respond with a list pointing out that there are issues with the current state of the game. I was not denying the problems or "white knighting".

My opinion however is that as long as the devs put priority on accessibility and not stressing out players with the possibility of failure things are not going to improve much. Gameplay for both healers and tanks is dull and unengaging as a result and focusing on something specific like tank heals is trying to address the symptoms while ignoring the disease. It will not improve the condition of the game.

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Believe me, they know:

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

That moment you realize they don't have at least one developer per job role (Tank, Heal, Melee DPS, Caster DPS, Ranged Physical DPS)

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Deceptus and Sebazy’s track records on these trends go back farther than that thread. I’m fairly certain I’ve seen posts from both in Heavensward and ARR too.

"tanks have too much sustain and that's a problem"
meanwhile
"DRKs don't have enough sustain and they're too hard to heal"

- ffxiv healer mains

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Originally Posted by Tlamila

[1] "tanks have too much sustain and that's a problem"
meanwhile
[2] "DRKs don't have enough sustain and they're too hard to heal"

- ffxiv healer mains

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[1] An inter-role balance issue. (Changes the game's dynamics and role interactions.)
[2] An in-role balance issue. (Changes job balance.)

But sure, why not conflate separate things?

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Originally Posted by Tlamila

"tanks have too much sustain and that's a problem"
meanwhile
"DRKs don't have enough sustain and they're too hard to heal"

- ffxiv healer mains

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Are you sure that’s healer mains saying that? I love getting DRKs in dungeons if they are halfway decent. The trash DPS they can put out is top notch and I can generally keep them going through most experto pulls with oGCDs alone so the self sustain means nothing to me. In Savage, Meh I do need to adjust a little for specific situations like Pinax where the boss might actually string together more than a few auto attacks but those are rare and a regen takes care of it anyway.

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Originally Posted by Tlamila

"tanks have too much sustain and that's a problem"
meanwhile
"DRKs don't have enough sustain and they're too hard to heal"

- ffxiv healer mains

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Pretty sure DRK complaints vome from Tank players not us but anyway, are you really suggesting there is no in-between?

Speak for yourself. As a former DNK main i will tell you i hate healing them. You have to put it far more work compared to warrior/paladin. When I run a dungeon I like to watch some tyler1 while I heal DNK actually has a risk of dying if i’m not monitoring them. Yes I’m lazy and no i don’t care.

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Originally Posted by Tlamila

"tanks have too much sustain and that's a problem"
meanwhile
"DRKs don't have enough sustain mitigation outside of TBN and they're too hard to heal"
- ffxiv healer mains

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FTFY.

/10char

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Originally Posted by AFuzzyMu11in

You have to put it far more work compared to warrior/paladin

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Uhh.. well, if they cycle through their CDs properly and you weave yours as well in between AoEs.. I really don't see the issue here. Sure, it's more "work" compared to Bloodwhetting WAR, but not by much. Considering you stated that you like weaving heals/damage in EW, I'm a bit surprised you feel that way honestly. At the end of the day, GCD is still rolling.

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Originally Posted by AFuzzyMu11in

while I heal DNK actually has a risk of dying

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All tanks do have a risk of dying, though. Inexperienced players, people who are simply not very comfortable or good at it, new 90 tanks.. it's a bit unreasonable to expect absolutely everyone to be able to not need a healer at all during packs in dungeons. Sure, their kit have a way to remedy to some of it, but nothing is certain, I'm afraid.

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Originally Posted by Tlamila

"tanks have too much sustain and that's a problem"
meanwhile
"DRKs don't have enough sustain and they're too hard to heal"

- ffxiv healer mains

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Kinda conflating two different issues there. It's the role that is having that problem, and DRK's only effective mitigation tool is TBN, and it's gated behind a DPS trade for some reason. If Abyssal Drain was still a GCD, that wouldn't be a problem at all. It's a DRK issue, not a healer one, I'm afraid.

Seriously? Speaking about DRK’s sustainability again? How many times this misconception has to be brought up over and over and over and over again?

DRK has the worst sustainability but doesn’t mean they’re BAD with it. The reason why they felt harder because sustainability wise they received little to no change from ShB compared to 3 other tanks. If you used to be able to heal DRK or any other tanks decently back in ShB (Heck, PLD was slightly harder to heal too -_-), you won’t have a problem healing a well played DRK in EW unless you’re just bad, plain bad; there’s no in-between there.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

Seriously? Speaking about DRK’s sustainability again? How many times this misconception has to be brought up over and over and over and over again?

DRK has the worst sustainability but doesn’t mean they’re BAD with it. The reason why they felt harder because sustainability wise they received little to no change from ShB compared to 3 other tanks. If you used to be able to heal DRK or any other tanks decently back in ShB (Heck, PLD was slightly harder to heal too -_-), you won’t have a problem healing a well played DRK in EW unless you’re just bad, plain bad; there’s no in-between there.

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DRKs traditionally have always been a bit harder to heal in leveling content mostly because when they don't outgear content, TBN isn't as effective.

But when they do, and have high HP totals, TBN becomes an absolute monster.

Basically: The Blackest Night has been a crutch for DRKs since it's implementation and the job has suffered substantially since.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

DRKs traditionally have always been a bit harder to heal in leveling content mostly because when they don't outgear content, TBN isn't as effective.

But when they do, and have high HP totals, TBN becomes an absolute monster.

Basically: The Blackest Night has been a crutch for DRKs since it's implementation and the job has suffered substantially since.

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Unless your final comment here has nothing to do with the reasoning above it, this seems a simple rehash of "all jobs must scale about equally with gear and content" that homogenized Warrior's gear-based sustain (e.g., healing from damage-based self-heals) towards Paladin's content-based sustain (percentile mitigation) back in 2.0 -> 2.1, soon leading to DRK, on implementation, likewise copying over the majority of its defensive abilities from Paladin (for a slew of initial comments as to DRK being a "Messy-PLD w/o Cover and an invuln that can only delay death instead of preventing it").

A tank doesn't necessarily "suffer" for producing its sustain in a different way; varying means of throughput just means that tuning is that much more complex, not impossible or so inefficient as to make that variance untenable.

Mitigation and healing are not the same thing. There are specific conditions under which you can find equivalence, but that should be done with caution and not blindly. This is the reason why, although the game devs have separated out healers into 'pure healers' and 'shield healers', we are yet to see a healer job that only can cast shields (i.e. mitigation without healing). Er, we're all grateful that you've blocked a lot of damage there, but we're going to die on the next auto from pure attrition.

p2s has been cleared with 6 dps. PLD and SGE and no dancers, for those curious.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

p2s has been cleared with 6 dps. PLD and SGE and no dancers, for those curious.

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With enough gear, single healing savages is a pretty normal thing.