The Bizarre Lack of Development and Pathos Concerning Zenos [6.0 Spoilers]

One of FFXIV’s most prominent themes since Heavensward has been compassion and empathy, especially when it comes to those we have considered adversaries in the past. We hold them accountable for their atrocities, but delve deep into what has driven them to such ends, so we understand their state of mind and where they’re coming from even if we don’t agree with what they’ve done. For some baffling reason, Zenos is not afforded this same courtesy, despite being one of the game’s most enduring characters. Other major villains who have wrought comparable/greater harm, namely Gaius, Nidhogg, Emet-Selch, Elidibus, and Fandaniel/Hermes, are developed with significant pathos. So…why not Zenos?

It’s not as if Zenos’ pathos didn't exist prior to 6.0. The Wandering Minstrel confirms Zenos is a “lonely, pitiable man,” and most importantly, we have this canon short story that details what sapped the joy from Zenos’ existence and the abominable treatment he suffered as a child at the hands of his father. Unfortunately, it’s only available in a book that’s out-of-print, and you wouldn’t find it online unless you were specifically digging for it. I was extremely hopeful the story would make an appearance in the game as an echo, as it not only helps explain why Stormblood-era Zenos had abilities unseen by any other Garlean, but how he came to the conclusion that finding a powerful rival to strive against is the only thing that might end the soul-crushing emptiness plaguing his existence. I’m not trying to “woobify” the man or justify his abhorrent actions, but I’m extremely bothered that at no point, do we acknowledge in MSQ that his self-centered behavior and lust for violence are the result of severe trauma and having never been loved or cared for since the day he was born. Even if the player still refuses to pay him any sympathy (which is valid), they at least have a chance to appreciate where he’s coming from. An all-too common complaint is that Zenos lacks depth, and this would have been the ideal means to give him some much-needed development.

And the opportunities to show us such an echo were numerous! We run into Zenos multiple times before the game’s finale. This is exposition we should have gotten back in Stormblood, and it’s galling to see that same mistake repeated in another expansion where he’s made out to be a major player.

His 6.0 treatment is even more vexing when you compare him to his partner in crime. Soon after the WoL’s introduction to Fandaniel, Estinien asks if we’ll try to understand him, like we did with Hades, and all of the possible responses are different shades of, “yes, I’ll try.” Despite the man giving us no indication whatsoever that he craves nothing less than our agonizing death, the game implores us to keep an open mind.

Then we meet him again as Hermes. The game pushes us to bond with him, open our hearts to his inner turmoil, and then the guy whips around and knowingly dooms all of mankind (and likely all life in the universe). He does this based on his slighted moral code as well as his personal interpretation of the data collected during his personal experiment. The act is disgustingly selfish, yet the narrative does little to condemn it. When we run into Hermes-as-Amon again, we still have the option of a compassionate, “Next time, we will find the answer together.” as our goodbye to him. Despite having wrought terror and destruction beyond measure, he’s treated with immense grace and respect as a tragic figure.

Zenos, on the other hand, is absolutely instrumental in our fight against the Endsinger, having flown across the universe to aid us. When it’s all over, we have no option to thank him, nor do we even remotely address that the WoL couldn’t have saved Etheirys without his help. Typically, after a villain assists the WoL (even begrudgingly), we acknowledge their good deed and are given the option of expressing thanks. In this instance, we seemed ready to abandon Zenos to the cold edge of creation, which is jarringly and uncharacteristically callous for FFXIV - yes, Zenos deserves to be punished and the WoL is right to have a personal vendetta against him, but this seemed...somewhat excessive. I personally found that last shot of Zenos’ body left to rot the edge of the universe unexpectedly cruel, and I had difficulty feeling positively throughout the rest of the game’s ending.

I’m also troubled that the writers gave him so many loose threads after Stormblood that ultimately lead to nothing - his dreaming of Amaurot, Elidibus calling him an invaluable test subject, and Fandaniel wondering “Could Emet-Selch have found a way…?” in regards to his dreams. There was so much compelling potential here, and we just…did nothing with any of it.

And to be clear, this is not about “Zenos got what he deserved” or “but he died getting what he wanted,” it’s strictly about the bizarre absence of the insight necessary for us to empathize with the second-most prominent villain in the expansion.

As much as I would love to see more of him (especially as a party member), I’m not sure bringing Zenos back to life a 2nd time could fix this, what with the finality of his last moments. But I do hope that going into the future, all of the above will be addressed in some capacity. For how excellent Endwalker was, it feels like something of an open wound to leave things as they are now.

EDIT: I was hoping this would be obvious without me having to say it outright, but THIS IS NOT A DEBATE CONCERNING WHETHER OR NOT ZENOS DESERVES REDEMPTION. Nowhere in the above am I asking for for the writers to redeem Zenos at all. This is about the game not offering us enough information to understand what led to Zenos becoming the person he is now.

I'm still keeping my fingers crossed that they didn't just gloss over some of the missing details and maybe we'll learn the truth about him via some records stowed away in the imperial palace or some such.

Vuro, what an excellent post! Thank you so much for taking the time and putting in the effort to write all of that. Thank you also for your compassion and understanding for Zenos. It's quite rare to see it, especially publicly.

I agree with everything you said. Zenos deserved so much more. Personally, I believe and hope with all my heart that he will be brought back and given a proper, well-earned, in-depth redemption or rehabilitation arc. It seems to me that the writers have left many unanswered questions about Zenos but also many clues and hints as to how he could be brought back.

Oh by the way, if you like Zenos and want to discuss more about him, I actually recently joined a Discord server that is all about Zenos, about theories and such. Let me know if you want to join!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vuro

Zenos, on the other hand, is absolutely instrumental in our fight against the Endsinger,

---

Fine with rest of your post but this is flat out not true.

You can easily write Zenos out of the final boss fight without a change to the story other than Zenos showing up.

We were in a place surrounded by the power of Dynamis, if Thancred can make breathable air in an entire zone, we can create a single platform and we could've done it by drawing on our entire memories from 1.0/2.0 (depending when you started) to present of our journey.

Zenos is a glorified platform that we ourselves could've made if we willed it if the writers had let us but they didn't so Zenos the platform is the result.

Zenos in 6.0 was a superfluous addition that served no narrative purpose other than to give a final fight that didn't even need to exist but did.

Everything he has done since being brought back could've been done by Fandaniel and the plot would be the same.

That has been my issue with Zenos since 4.0, he has been narratively useless and a terrible stain on the writing team for not leaving well enough alone when they should have.

I haven't had an opportunity to put together all my thoughts yet, but I can at least try to get my Zenos-related ones into the same basket to put my own spin on this idea.

I started a thread a while back focused on getting everyone's expectations and opinions in one place because so many threads eventually devolved into bitter Zenos talk. (I think I'm ready to admit out loud more often how frustrated I am that - during Shadowbringers - suddenly 80% of Lore Forum threads would become the same few people passively-aggressively repeating the same few points at each other ad nauseam until almost all the fun-focused and good-faith debaters stopped coming here entirely, but that's a whole other can of worms, lol.)

My opinion after Endwalker? I feel like I lost a bet to Natsuko Ishikawa, fair and square, lol.

Zenos subverted most of my worries about him. He didn't take up Endwalker's oxygen. The story of the world coming together had little to do him. "One guy who wants to fight the Warrior of Light really bad" had nothing to do with people reflecting on their values. He didn't hound us or murder our friends for no reason. Rather, he spent the time between realizing that creating chaos hoping we'd fight him because "that's what a hero would do" wasn't doing eff all for his cause and the end of the story actually reflecting on who we were. He reflected on his goal and how to accomplish it in consistency with his own blend of existentialism and nihilism - life has no meaning but what you make of it, and he didn't make much out of much...except when it came to us.

In Garlemald, I joked, "Dude, if you wanna fight that bad help me kill The Sound and we'll beat each other up." not expecting that to happen.

By the end of the story we had wandered so far away from anything we were thinking about prior to Endwalker that I spent the last dungeon saying to the stream, "What is this about? Why are we here? We already know what Meteion found. The Ascians? Hydaelyn? Zodiark? SMALL POTATOES. All part of a cosmic orchestration challenge existentialism and nihilism and the sad bird girl and now we've reached 'flying space clock' Final Fantasy. I give up. Zenos, come back. Zenos, make it make sense."

And then he came back, lmao.

He reflected on who the Warrior of Light really is, he let us finish our mission entirely, and then he walked up and challenged us at the end of the universe, where no one could see us, where no one would be affected, where no one would ever know, and (A) admitted that he understands that we had no reason to want to fight him before, and (B) suggested we fight for no reason than but that he's more powerful than he's ever been and being an adventurer means taking challenges for the sake of being challenged.

He still hated the world, he still refused to believe it had any value, he was still a monster. But he took the time to understand the Warrior of Light in their proper context.

And I just sat there staring at the screen and was like...

AH, F#$K IT. <slams the first option>

I hate that I love it, if only for the jokes I made along the way coming true and what that did for my personal experience, lmao. With concerns about the appropriate emotional tone and theming of a final chapter of an epic fantasy story out of the way, my concerns with Zenos were limited to "Does his survival add more to the story than undoing his otherwise perfect death at the end of 4.0 took away? Do we get a return on that investment at all?"

Now, I realize that the scene deliberately cut away avoiding showing him dissolve into mist. The guy who came back after almost cutting off his own head. That can only mean they want plausible deniability. Ambiguity. The freedom to choose later whether to say he's dead or was just only-mostly-dead. But please leave him dead. Y'all did the impossible. Leave him be. (Tell me what Emet-Selch did, tho.)

But with regard to specifically what this thread is about, I think we can make it work in the context of what I'm saying:

Over time the player base can let what happened marinate a bit more, and respect a bit more that, sure, Zenos was a lonely, pitiable man who for the most part lived a cold empty life and did horrible things trying to achieve selfish goals ... sure, he was a product of his environment; given the circumstances of his existence and his personal experiences, who else could he have been? ... but in the end he took the time to get what he wanted in an effective way and delivered a memorable moment on his way out the door.

He thought he was our friend in a twisted way. He tried to be a good friend in kind in a twisted way. The sum of all of those parts gives rise to a whole that I think does facilitate its own kind of compassion for him...in a twisted way. One as warped as he was.

How are we cold to Zenos at the end? The first dialogue option is literally us accepting him. He said it himself that a fight to the death is all that he can share with us, by indulging him we're basically returning the favor of helping us defeat the Endsinger. The sly little smile we gave him (if you chose the first option) was the highlight of EW btw

Too much thought for someone so mediocre and unimportant as Zenos. Please don't overcomplicate and don't give more meaning to something that's not complex in the first place. And no, please, for the love of God, don't bring him back. This focus on reforming someone is a bit obsessive. Sometimes people are the way they are and that's it. Why do we feel the need to force an idea of being a "good person" on everybody? If Zenos comes back and becomes another Estinien I swear I'm gonna Kate Marsh.

Zenos is a simple character, not "morally grey" like so many other characters. So, some people don't like him purely because of that.

That said, I'm fine with how his story ended, but I'm not wholly sure we're done with him if for no reason other than we still don't have a Wind-up minion of Zenos, much less an updated Dress-up one

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Anonymoose

But with regard to specifically what this thread is about, I think we can make it work in the context of what I'm saying:

Over time the player base can let what happened marinate a bit more, and respect a bit more that, sure, Zenos was a lonely, pitiable man who for the most part lived a cold empty life and did horrible things trying to achieve selfish goals ... sure, he was a product of his environment; given the circumstances of his existence and his personal experiences, who else could he have been? ... but in the end he took the time to get what he wanted in an effective way and delivered a memorable moment on his way out the door.

He thought he was our friend in a twisted way. He tried to be a good friend in kind in a twisted way. The sum of all of those parts gives rise to a whole that I think does facilitate its own kind of compassion for him...in a twisted way. One as warped as he was.

---

But that's literally what the point of this thread is: that you shouldn't have to let Zenos marinate in your brain to understand his basic motivations, because that is not how any antagonist post-HW is treated. Why is Zenos the only antagonist who the player is not explicitly asked or expected to empathize with?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Theox

Too much thought for someone so mediocre and unimportant as Zenos. Please don't overcomplicate and don't give more meaning to something that's not complex in the first place. And no, please, for the love of God, don't bring him back. This focus on reforming someone is a bit obsessive. Sometimes people are the way they are and that's it. Why do we feel the need to force an idea of being a "good person" on everybody? If Zenos comes back and becomes another Estinien I swear I'm gonna Kate Marsh.

---

He's so unimportant that he was a major antagonist in two expansions; yeah, thinking about how & why he was written the way he was written certainly is a pointless exercise

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Theox

Why do we feel the need to force an idea of being a "good person" on everybody?

---

Did you even read my post? I doubt it, because this has literally nothing to do with finding the goodness in Zenos or reforming him. Maybe do more than skim the text and try again if you're going to bother replying at all lmao.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vuro

Did you even read my post? I doubt it, because this has literally nothing to do with finding the goodness in Zenos or reforming him. Maybe do more than skim the text and try again if you're going to bother replying at all lmao.

---

It wasn't a direct reply to your post. I didn't quote you specifically dummy

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by marrrow

Why is Zenos the only antagonist who the player is not explicitly asked or expected to empathize with?

---

Because every other antagonist saw themselves as the central good guy in a story full of purpose and meaning, so a scene where we fully see them as they see themselves - realizing why they were our villain and why they lost to us - is satisfying.

Zenos doesn't. He has no use for that moment. He doesn't care.

Quote:

---

Would you be “happier” had I a “good reason monologue”? If my motives peroration met with your approval, would you no longer resent the outcome?

---

What meaning there is to be found in the petty vicissitudes of his existence must be gleaned by us and us alone.

I think the ending was a cliffhanger and they want to continue his story/develop him in some way. We've already established that he is immortal, and given the circumstances of the environment he died in, the writers could bring him back if they want to. Him not breathing means...nothing.

As it stands, his character was neglected by the writers, and they may do something interesting with him. I really do hope so.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Crushnight

You can easily write Zenos out of the final boss fight without a change to the story other than Zenos showing up.

---

Eh, you could actually easily write Zenos out of the entire storyline after he offed himself in the Garden and basically nothing in the story would change. Everything that he was involved in post-suicide could have easily been written to involve someone else and no one would have been the wiser.

It's somewhat funny. Zenos actually already is a sympathetic character if you can relate to him on a personal, rather than in-universe character based level. I mean, sympathy and empathy aren't just actions that we take. They're acted upon feelings, and feelings are thoroughly subjective.

I related to Zenos right away in Stormblood. Instantly saw him for being bored to the point of depression. I was actually coming to end of a 6 year bout with depression myself at the time(though it was actually a duo playthrough of Scholar of the First Sin with my good friend later in the year that finally put that segment of my life to rest). I didn't like him yet, but he grew on me because of that(And I mean I was screaming bloody murder and bullshit my first time through each time he beat us). I'm not the best raider in the world, but without fresh, hard fights in the game I get very bored and start to dislike the game.

What they did with him post 4.0 was essentially had him go on his own personal journey for his own motivation. I found myself thinking after I'd defeated him and watched my brother also defeat him, "Did they really just basically write, "The Villain's Journey?" Sort of a parallel to the Hero's Journey, but rather than the call to adventure, it's the, "Call to The Adventurer."

They didn't give us a lot of desired dialogue options for many portions of Endwalker, and regardless of what dialogue option you pick at the end with him, fighting him is still giving him what he desired. That is the best kind of thanks for him, as your words mean far less.

I really enjoyed that they went full Meta with him. He likely could have killed the Scions when he stole our body, but he gingerly walked towards Camp Broken Glass because it was a provocation to try to arouse us to anger to fight him. He proved by his dialogue later when he killed that single Blasphemy that he was already beyond Despair. But then he took what Alisaie said into consideration, showing that he doesn't have all of the answers.

I also think that some people misunderstand what he contributed to the Endwalker Final Day fight. He wasn't just the platform. He allowed us to continue to keep bringing the fight to her. Maybe we could have made a place to stand by manipulating Dynamis, but we needed our all to slay the Endsinger and our Azem Stone party also needed their all to do that as well. For the entire fight, the Endsinger is simultaneously trying to kill us while trying to also get away. Zenos even makes commentary on it, "There's nowhere you can run that we won't catch you."



Basically, what the point I'm trying to make is that Zenos is a character where the pathos comes from us reading him rather than from him directly. For the other characters it is obvious, because they want it to be, but for Zenos they leave us to feel freely about him. Note that he is also the villain who our comrades speak about the least. No one ever really makes an attempt to color or re-color our perception of him.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by marrrow

He's so unimportant that he was a major antagonist in two expansions; yeah, thinking about how & why he was written the way he was written certainly is a pointless exercise

---

Hmm. You’d have a point for antagonist in Stormblood (through, I think classifying him as a “major” one is kind of stretching it, since we spent way more time dealing with Yotsuyu as a villain versus him—and 4.x Zenos was just Elidibus in Zenos’s body)—but in Endwalker? He took a major backseat for basically the entire expansion. Fandaniel/Hermès and Meteion were the antagonists. Zenos was just that weird fanboy who harassed our character about fighting him every time he was on camera.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Elysidelphi

Vuro, what an excellent post! Thank you so much for taking the time and putting in the effort to write all of that. Thank you also for your compassion and understanding for Zenos. It's quite rare to see it, especially publicly.

---

Thank you so much for your kind words! <3 I’d love a link to that discord!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by waifugenerator

How are we cold to Zenos at the end?

---

I’m referring to the moments before Zenos calls to us, where we’re 100% ready to follow Meteion out of Absolute Horizon without giving Zenos a second thought.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vyrerus

Basically, what the point I'm trying to make is that Zenos is a character where the pathos comes from us reading him rather than from him directly. For the other characters it is obvious, because they want it to be, but for Zenos they leave us to feel freely about him. Note that he is also the villain who our comrades speak about the least. No one ever really makes an attempt to color or re-color our perception of him.

---

This is a really rad interpretation, so thank you for putting it into words! Although I’m still frustrated by the lack of more obvious pathos for players who struggle with reading between the lines, I really hope your analysis is closer to what the writers’ actual intent was, since their approach to Zenos would make more sense in that case.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Theox

It wasn't a direct reply to your post. I didn't quote you specifically dummy

---

Dude, you replied to my thread without quoting anyone else, meaning you replied to the thread’s first post - my post. Sorry if you’re only just finding out how forums work.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Anonymoose

Because every other antagonist saw themselves as the central good guy in a story full of purpose and meaning, so a scene where we fully see them as they see themselves - realizing why they were our villain and why they lost to us - is satisfying.

Zenos doesn't. He has no use for that moment. He doesn't care.

What meaning there is to be found in the petty vicissitudes of his existence must be gleaned by us and us alone.

---

I think that's a lovely way to interpret the narrative we've been given, but I don't think it was either the intention or the most effective approach to telling his story. Leaving pretty much all of the responsibility for interpreting & understanding a given character with the player--especially when other characters are readily explained--does not give anyone who wasn't immediately invested in the character reason to become so

FF14 may have a very sophisticated narrative & it may leave a lot up to our interpretation, but it is still ultimately quite accessible; the failure to give players any significant opportunities to empathize with Zenos & understand where he's coming from is to its detriment. Likewise, as OP said, it feels incongruous with the story's overally themes of empathy & compassion, even for people like Yotsuyu or Hermes or Amon; why is Zenos outside of this?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Hmm. You’d have a point for antagonist in Stormblood (through, I think classifying him as a “major” one is kind of stretching it, since we spent way more time dealing with Yotsuyu as a villain versus him—and 4.x Zenos was just Elidibus in Zenos’s body)—but in Endwalker? He took a major backseat for basically the entire expansion. Fandaniel/Hermès and Meteion were the antagonists. Zenos was just that weird fanboy who harassed our character about fighting him every time he was on camera.

---

Even though he spends relatively little time on-screen in SB, everything that we do is to fulfill his ends; we spend more time dealing with Yotsuyu & Fordola because the entire point of the expansion is that we have nothing to offer him until after we've grown strong enough to overcome all of the obstacles he sets in our path. After all, what are Yotsuyu & Fordola doing but carrying out his will?

As for post-SB--in post-SHB, as OP said, we spent a lot of time emphasizing how important he was going to be in EW; in the promotional materials for EW, he was also heavily emphasized, suggesting that he would be important; he is also present at the lvl 90 trial, & the absolute final fight of the expac is with him. I think this is enough to say that he is--or was meant to be--a significant antagonist. Why he ended up not fulfilling that role is impossible to know, but that doesn't invalidate OP's question about why he wasn't offered the same compassion & empathy that other antagonists receive

Zenos should have stayed dead after his suicide in 4.0's ending. Since that scene he has done nothing to move the plot forward.

His character hasn't changed or developed either. Seriously, his big moment of significant change was the realization that the WOL won't fight him until this other threat has gone away. That's childish logic, not character development.

Post-Stormblood keep everything the same. Just delete scenes where Zenos is in another corpse.

Shadowbringers, Gaius should have killed Varis for knowningly courting Ascians. Estinien should have driven Elidibus from Zenos' corpse. The civil war still happens. Fandaniel takes Varis' body and the plot continues (remember they can make clones!).

Endwalker happens without Zenos entirely and we'd be none the wiser. Such an easy fix that you can't even love him into justification.

Not to mention all the lost plot threads, like the dreaming of Amaurot (So Ancient Zenos wasn't friends with Azem?), how does surviving death change you (because in this case it did nothing), and he just rolls with Fandaniel using him as a tool proving he has no self-worth (so why even fight the WOL at all if the Ascian is going to make you a puppet?)?

Zenos is a blemish on what was otherwise a well told story and expansion.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by marrrow

I think that's a lovely way to interpret the narrative we've been given, but I don't think it was either the intention or the most effective approach to telling his story. Leaving pretty much all of the responsibility for interpreting & understanding a given character with the player--especially when other characters are readily explained--does not give anyone who wasn't immediately invested in the character reason to become so

FF14 may have a very sophisticated narrative & it may leave a lot up to our interpretation, but it is still ultimately quite accessible; the failure to give players any significant opportunities to empathize with Zenos & understand where he's coming from is to its detriment. Likewise, as OP said, it feels incongruous with the story's overally themes of empathy & compassion, even for people like Yotsuyu or Hermes or Amon; why is Zenos outside of this?

---

On the bolded part: we don’t necessarily have to empathize, sympathize, or feel compassion for each and every villain we encounter. And there are those within the story that we don’t have these emotions for; some play a bigger part than others, but you could say the same about those we do share an emotional connection to.

Our character is never really seen feeling any sort of emotion for the other Ascians outside of Emet and Elidibus: Lahabrea, Igeyorhm, Nabriales. They’re seen more as obstacles to our goals, we overcome them, and they fade into finished chapters of our story. Some weren’t as major to the story compared to the former two, yes—Igeyorhm and Nabriales, for example, didn’t have a lot of screen time or development, and Lahabrea’s development in ARR and HW was quite poor, to be honest; however, Elidibus was only really a major player in a handful of expansion patches, and 5.3 was a major turning point for his character after years of kind of being in the background as an emissary. Now whether this was a product of ARR storytelling in the case of Nabriales or missed opportunity for Igeyorhm, I cannot say. But we didn’t really follow the themes of the story with either of them. Lahabrea is, obviously, subject to change given Pandaemonium’s on-going story.

Though it’s been a while since I’ve been through HW, I don’t recall us ever really feeling compassion for Nidhogg, though this could be up for debate. I personally don’t recall any moments akin to what we had with Yotsuyu, Hermès/Fandaniel/Amon, Emet-Selch, Elidibus, or Meteion with him; he always struck me as just a villain driven by a singular emotion and goal; not one that was inherently complex, or meant to garner any sort of emotional sympathy or compassion from us, the player. Same for Thordan. For Stormblood, I don’t think there was any question that Asahi is a person not meant to garner sympathy or compassion or understanding of any kind—I think he was purposely written to be that guy with the punchable face that you just want to sock in the jaw every time he opens his mouth. Again, you can argue that he wasn’t a “major” antagonist; but still.

I think there exist characters not meant to be empathized/sympathized with, or feel compassion for should the player choose not to. And that’s perfectly okay. Just like it’s okay to not have redeemable characters in a story. Not every villain needs to be tragic or sympathetic or an anti-villain. That would be boring.



Zenos is a very divisive character—and has been since 4.0. I think it’s probably a wise decision to leave it up to the players to decide on their emotional catharsis/pathos for him rather than trying to force it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by marrrow

Even though he spends relatively little time on-screen in SB, everything that we do is to fulfill his ends; we spend more time dealing with Yotsuyu & Fordola because the entire point of the expansion is that we have nothing to offer him until after we've grown strong enough to overcome all of the obstacles he sets in our path. After all, what are Yotsuyu & Fordola doing but carrying out his will?

As for post-SB--in post-SHB, as OP said, we spent a lot of time emphasizing how important he was going to be in EW; in the promotional materials for EW, he was also heavily emphasized, suggesting that he would be important; he is also present at the lvl 90 trial, & the absolute final fight of the expac is with him. I think this is enough to say that he is--or was meant to be--a significant antagonist. Why he ended up not fulfilling that role is impossible to know, but that doesn't invalidate OP's question about why he wasn't offered the same compassion & empathy that other antagonists receive

---

I answered before this had been posted, but I’ll reiterate: with him being such a divisive character, I think it was wise of the writers to leave it up to the player to form their own emotional connection (or lack there of) with him. Forcing it would have been in bad taste, in my opinion. I don’t think that would have made for great writing when the reaction to him since his introduction—and subsequent resurrection—has been so divided.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by marrrow

Leaving pretty much all of the responsibility for interpreting & understanding a given character with the player--especially when other characters are readily explained--does not give anyone who wasn't immediately invested in the character reason to become so

---

My brain pretty much considers him the optional DLC mega-boss of FFXIV so tbh yeah it's fair to say I'm not invested in him, lol. But he didn't do any of the things I was afraid he would do to damage Endwalker's messages, and he did technically meet his own goals without ruining mine, so I'm willing to sit here and be like "<blowing into bubble pipe> Would Zenos care if I understood or invested in him? I submit that he would not."

Short answer: the writers didn't want to. They explicitly said their goal with him in Stormblood was to make a villain who wasn't as charismatic as Gaius, and certainly not as sympathetic as Emet-Selch turned out to be. And unlike Yotsuyu, whatever, probably not great childhood he had, wasn't a driving force in his desires. He didn't dwell on the fact his father hated him, that everyone except Asahi thought he was a monster.

He simply did not care. That's what the writers wanted him to be. They wanted a character you loved to hate. They missed the mark, but that was the intent.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vuro

Thank you so much for your kind words! <3 I’d love a link to that discord!

---

Here you go:

https://discord.gg/SxGnhMJR


Hope the link works for you!

Well, I for one can't wait for Zenos to become the next Emet-Selch dividing everyone.

His existence said/says something about us. I dunno what it is just yet, but I wouldn't be surprised if he comes back. As if the sunset/sunrise imagery for the fight wasn't enough to suggest there is some kind of cosmic connection! They have been on this dueling-suns morning/evening star track for a while now in the story, the two who cannot coexist (Azim Steppe gods...although naamah (spelling?) was more lunar, I admit). I used to think he was the one Azem sans memories with only the uncontrollable urge to fight the biggest strong people.

That he managed to be less creepy to me than Fandaniel in the dinner scene is something that has stuck with me. Can't put a finger on it. They are both nihilists on the surface, but Zenos is something more. Even though he seems simpler. I don't think he is. ETA: and I am not talking about a tragic backstory. I mean just him as a being.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by vormela

Can't put a finger on it. They are both nihilists on the surface, but Zenos is something more.

---

Some friends and I were just debating what the "proper" term for Zenos is, and whether there's a meaningful difference between existentialism / active nihilism / optimistic nihilism. I personally landed on existentialist for Zenos, as "life has no worth but what you give it" but also "it's worth finding meaning in it"; that's what, for me, separated him from actual nihilists Xande / Amon ("life has no meaning but what you give it and it's not worth giving it any").

As we joked about it more, Venat was tongue-in-cheek pinned as "absurdist" (life has no meaning but what you give it, and it's a paradox to try to look for meaning that doesn't exist, and you should accept this, but also rebel against it by embracing what life has to offer). Though the lyrics to Answers are a cloud you can see any shape in so it comes as no surprise to me you can use it to defend the absurdist worldview, lmao.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vyrerus

Basically, what the point I'm trying to make is that Zenos is a character where the pathos comes from us reading him rather than from him directly. For the other characters it is obvious, because they want it to be, but for Zenos they leave us to feel freely about him.

---

Yes. His purpose is for something more than surficial villain. There are more pathologies tied up in the dinner scene and fallout than in the entire rest of the game except for Venat asking us if our existence was good. It will take time to figure out, but I am going to give him that time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Anonymoose

Some friends and I were just debating what the "proper" term for Zenos is, and whether there's a meaningful difference between existentialism / active nihilism / optimistic nihilism. I personally landed on existentialist for Zenos, as "life has no worth but what you give it" but also "it's worth finding meaning in it"; that's what, for me, separated him from actual nihilists Xande / Amon ("life has no meaning but what you give it and it's not worth giving it any").

As we joked about it more, Venat was tongue-in-cheek pinned as "absurdist" (life has no meaning but what you give it, and it's a paradox to try to look for meaning that doesn't exist, and you should accept this, but also rebel against it by embracing what life has to offer). Though the lyrics to Answers are a cloud you can see any shape in so it comes as no surprise to me you can use it to defend the absurdist worldview, lmao.

---

We posted this at the same time and are basically saying the same thing. XD
Is life good? Well then.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Crushnight

We were in a place surrounded by the power of Dynamis, if Thancred can make breathable air in an entire zone, we can create a single platform and we could've done it by drawing on our entire memories from 1.0/2.0 (depending when you started) to present of our journey.

Zenos is a glorified platform that we ourselves could've made if we willed it if the writers had let us but they didn't so Zenos the platform is the result.

Zenos in 6.0 was a superfluous addition that served no narrative purpose other than to give a final fight that didn't even need to exist but did.

Everything he has done since being brought back could've been done by Fandaniel and the plot would be the same.

That has been my issue with Zenos since 4.0, he has been narratively useless and a terrible stain on the writing team for not leaving well enough alone when they should have.

---

Thancred and the others were able to do this by sacrificing their bodies to overcome the emotions. Who exactly did we need to interact with to create a path to the Endsinger? Especially one that moves because she can just fly away from anything we do.

As for Zenos himself, Hermes stated something to the effect of since there is no inherent meaning in life we much make meaning, even if that meaning is to become a genocidal maniac. That’s Zenos. He doesn’t need a redemption arc. He unapologetically had a single goal, and he took it upon himself to achieve that goal. The man is positive nihilism personified. He knew what he wanted, he didn’t care about what others thought, and he was willing to do what it took to get his desire.

Why should there need to be pathos around Zenos' character, though?

It's worth going through his scenes from after the Stormblood MSQ. Much like he makes you do this expansion, he manages to fight his way back against all odds to his original body using a borrowed, weakened Imperial Centurion. He puts an end to the threat of the Black Rose and Varis. He spares Gaius and Estinien in an unsolicited 2v1 when it would have been trivial to kill them both. And in a moment of surprising clarity, he completely shuts down Jullus' diatribe non-violently in what was startlingly one of the best bit of dialogue in the MSQ.

'Would you be "happier" had I a good reason? If my motives met with your approval, would you no longer resent the outcome?'

He is who he is, and unapologetically so. Take it or leave it. He's a fascinating character, and is brimming with potential.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Delily

Thancred and the others were able to do this by sacrificing their bodies to overcome the emotions. Who exactly did we need to interact with to create a path to the Endsinger? Especially one that moves because she can just fly away from anything we do.

As for Zenos himself, Hermes stated something to the effect of since there is no inherent meaning in life we much make meaning, even if that meaning is to become a genocidal maniac. That’s Zenos. He doesn’t need a redemption arc. He unapologetically had a single goal, and he took it upon himself to achieve that goal. The man is positive nihilism personified. He knew what he wanted, he didn’t care about what others thought, and he was willing to do what it took to get his desire.

---

Why didn't Garuda fly high and just attack us from the air?

Why didn't Leviathan just attack us from under the sea?

Why didn't Nidhogg just fly up and pelt us with fireballs and his roar especially on the Final Steps of Faith?

Why didn't Innocence fly away he already did once in a cutscene so it wasn't beyond him clearly?

Story/fight segregation, Endsinger would have been no different had we made the platform ourselves, they wouldn't have flown away because the fight wanted us to be able to poke them with our melee attacks.

Zenos being the floor or not, nothing in that fight would've been different, oh sorry except Zenos's self insert opening line of the fight that would've been taken out clearly needed for the story /s

Meteion clearly explained to us what power emotions have in Ultima Thule, it is not impossible for our WoL character to think back on their entire journey and use those emotions to make a platform to fight Endsinger. Thus is Zenos self insert into the finale questionable from a writing standpoint, is it true to his character, yes, does it make sense he would, yes, was it needed for the story at all, no.

That last one is my issue he is superfluous at best for the narrative and that is terrible writing since he has been around for 4-5 years now and his biggest contribution to the plot was in 4.0.

Elidibus is equally guilty of being put on the back burner for too long but at least they did something with him eventually.

Zenos your still waiting and he has had a death, and now a potential death fakeout or 2nd death depending on how people want to interpret it atm.

zenos died with a smile on his face, let him stay dead

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lihtleita

zenos died with a smile on his face, let him stay dead

---

Sadly the RPR questline makes me think that his fate is rather grim

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Remedi

Sadly the RPR questline makes me think that his fate is rather grim

---

Why do you say that?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by vormela

Well, I for one can't wait for Zenos to become the next Emet-Selch dividing everyone.

His existence said/says something about us. I dunno what it is just yet, but I wouldn't be surprised if he comes back. As if the sunset/sunrise imagery for the fight wasn't enough to suggest there is some kind of cosmic connection! They have been on this dueling-suns morning/evening star track for a while now in the story, the two who cannot coexist (Azim Steppe gods...although naamah (spelling?) was more lunar, I admit). I used to think he was the one Azem sans memories with only the uncontrollable urge to fight the biggest strong people.

That he managed to be less creepy to me than Fandaniel in the dinner scene is something that has stuck with me. Can't put a finger on it. They are both nihilists on the surface, but Zenos is something more. Even though he seems simpler. I don't think he is. ETA: and I am not talking about a tragic backstory. I mean just him as a being.

---

So well said! And thank you for mentioning that detail about the sunset/sunrise imagery for the fight and the possibility of a cosmic connection. Thank you for pointing it out, such a great yet subtle detail.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by vormela

Yes. His purpose is for something more than surficial villain. There are more pathologies tied up in the dinner scene and fallout than in the entire rest of the game except for Venat asking us if our existence was good. It will take time to figure out, but I am going to give him that time.

---

Good points again.

Someone I was talking to recently pointed out that on the poster for Endwalker, the Scions, Zenos and Venat are arranged/shaped in the form of The Tree of Life or Sefirot. And each character on there represents a different emanation related to The Tree of Life. Zenos would represent Gevurah which means strength and severity; the WoL would represent Chesed which means kindness and mercy; Alisaie who is located between Zenos and the WoL on the poster would represent Tiferet which means harmony and knowledge. So symbolically this would mean that Alisaie would maintain/encourage/create harmony between Zenos and the WoL. And she kind of does with her speech to Zenos which makes him self-reflect.

To quote her:

"Tifaret - Knowledge and Compassion/Beauty finding balance. Literally pretty self explanatory. The balance of conflicting forces Funny that it was Alisiae that got through to Zenos."

"Chesed - Mercy/Compassion - The Warrior of Light. This pretty much sums up Azem's ability to make connections, to repair the world via our connections and why we are saved. those who 'go above and beyond what is normally aquired". The first to attribute action the initiation of action. Very Azem."

"Gevurah - Severity and Strength - The mirror of Chesed's compassion and love. Corresponds to crimson and the element of Fire and burning Absolute adherance to the burning of all ("Burn, burn let it all burn") Overcoming of enemies, without or within"

"Chesed and Gevurah Must act together to create a balance to the soul's approach on the outside world. One cannot live without the other it must be both or it cannot be either."

And if you have any doubts about the FFXIV writing team not knowing about such concepts, all you have to do is look at the last MSQ dungeon which does have The Tree of Life during the final boss in that dungeon. Or you can look at Gridania and its connection to nature, particularly trees.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Elysidelphi

Why do you say that?

---

because voidsents are rather fond of corpses to use

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Remedi

because voidsents are rather fond of corpses to use

---

Ah yes, I keep reading about such theories in regards to Zenos and his voidsent.

The only thing that could redeem Zenos or make him sympathetic would be the writers directly apologizing for ressurecting him, building him up, and then doing literally nothing with the character.

The best version of Zenos was the one who died once and for all on that palace roof. I was beyond annoyed when he anticlimactically showed up at the end of EW's nuanced showdown to shout COME FITE ME BRO CHECK OUT MY GAINS.