Zenos: The Big Bad (The Feedback Thread, Part 1)

[Anonymoose]

Rumors of Zenos's death in the final moments of the Battle of Ala Mhigo proved greatly exaggerated all the way back in the early Stormblood era. Since then, we've spent years speculating about why the writers let him live, what he was up to, and what his destination would be. Across that time, our opinions regarding those possibilities have varied wildly.

With the (teaser) trailer for Endwalker, however, we see confirmation that not only will Zenos (probably) be surviving 5.5, in 6.0, he sits at the heart of The Final Days (which are apparently not like "final" final but like "Final Fantasy" final) on a towering throne that would be the envy of H. R. Giger himself.

Seeing as this has been a roller coaster of contention for all of us, I thought it'd be fun to make a thread for just that so Square Enix can see our consolidated opinions in real time.

Here's a summary of where I've been so far:

After Revelation He was Alive

...But, why, though? His death was perfect. I understand why a completely unsympathetic villain with motives of his own was necessary for Stormblood. I agree with that decision, even! Square Enix spent 4.0 looking at all the plot hooks they'd scattered everywhere and making up wild new lore to tie the ones that worked well together as if they were always a coherent story with a decided destiny. Zenos gave us an uncomplicated, "love-to-hate-him" target to keep us distracted through that. It was great. His death was great.

So what is he doing here?

Through 5.0

OK, so I can see Zenos is acting as the Wild Card. Square Enix has committed to a path, even if we don't know what it is, but that path is relatively predictable with the status quo we have now (especially given that what would have happened had we not been spirited away from Ghimlyt was explained to us in 5.0).

Since the Warrior of Light was nowhere to be found, Gaius and Estinien eliminated the threat of Black Rose (for now), Zenos went home to kill Varis, and now the whole war has taken a new course.

My question is, "Why is that Wild Card Zenos? What do we gain by it being specifically Zenos? It's been over a year and we have nothing to support why we should feel excited that it's Zenos and not anyone else who could be doing the same things." Is it just his position within the Empire? Is it that he's a blood relative of Emet-Selch's last meat suit (which he probably experimented on somehow)? Is it that he's the only person willing and able to get to a Great Crystal?

I want to like it but I need a reason to. Give me a reason to.

Post 5.0 to Pre-6.0 (May be updated after 5.5)

"Oh, thank the Twelve, it's just Fandaniel wearing Asahi's corpse."

So now we've got an Ascian that just wants to watch everything die in a paroxysm of pain and suffering. Or so he says.

Elidibus told Zenos that Hydaelyn and Zodiark were primals knowing he would do everything in his power to create a situation where he and the Warrior of Light could each take one over Shinryu style and fight to the death once again.

If Fandaniel really has completely independent goals, and does not, say, want to be Zodiark's new BFF, why does he choose the moment Zenos sets his eyes on Zodiark to want to be his new BFF? Why does he want to recreate the disaster that empowered Zodiark with prayers for the world's salvation? Why is he seemingly building a doomsday cult (the Telophoroi) whose name translates to "Bringers of the End"? I've got my eye on you. (I hope there's more to this dynamic duo than "Nothing Matters but Fighting my Friend" + "Nothing Matters but Everyone Dying", at least.)

And now we see Zenos sitting on atop a biomechanical Howl's Murder Castle, seemingly with a new weapon (a scythe?) at his side, watching it all burn, waiting for the day we battle anew.

So what's everyone thinking? Is Zenos worthy of being the big bad in the Final Chapter of the Star? (At least as far as Hydaelyn and Zodiark are concerned?) If you're for it, why? If you're against it, could anything change your mind? Where are we at today?

The writers have consistently impressed me with the quality of the big picture, so I have an open mind. But part of me is definitely still screaming, "BUT WHY? Why is this the best move for the main scenario? Why is it specifically him that makes it work, and not anyone else?" If I get a satisfying answer to that question I think I could let most concerns I had go. (10g says it has to do with Emet-Selch, somehow.)

Bonus swerve points if Zenos realizes eating Hydaelyn would be more likely to force our hand.

Triple bonus swerve points if Zodiark just eats Zenos at the last second.

Really I can't see being let down in anything that gives me that "Final Fantasy Feeling" of it all coming to together in that "back from the brink to kill god with the power of friendship because f**k you we're taking the reins of history, that's why." moment.

[Veloran]

I think the "why" is as simple as being motivated by the "how".
Zenos is the only character that has the means, motive, and opportunity to force the climax of the Hydaelyn/Zodiark saga. Zenos has the ability to forcibly mantle preexisting Primals, and he has the desire to create, or rather recreate, the greatest conflict in the history of the star. And the story has moved into a position where this will soon be a reality.
The big unanswered question we have going right now is, how exactly is the Final Days seemingly repeating in 6.0? Because for everything else going on, we have no real explanation for that.

The way I see it, Zenos is responsible for doing something to Hydaelyn that's incapacitated her from her position as the will of the star. Possibly he's either already mantled her, or perhaps that giant crystal structure in Garlemald is serving as her prison in some way. With no more will of the star, the Final Days is restarting just where it left off from when Zodiark stopped it. Obviously, nobody else other than Zenos really has either the motivation or the power to do something like this. If not Zenos, then who? Fandaniel? Some other new character introduced out of nowhere?
Of course, maybe that's looking at it the wrong way. You could probably as easily say that the specifics of this climax were contrived for the sake of Zenos rather than Zenos staying around in order to execute it.

I don't know. Maybe they're going somewhere completely unknown and unexpected with him. At the event they very much stressed that Zenos does really, truly believe that WoL is is friend. Maybe towards the end he'll have an epiphany that he doesn't actually want to kill his friend.

[RyuDragnier]

On why it has to be Zenos, I have a feeling the circumstances behind his birth is going to be very important for this. Zenos was considered an experiment. An experiment in what? An artificial Ascian? Recreating a lost soul? Or something else? Whatever it is, that has to tie into it. He outright mentions he has remembered the fall of Amaurot since he was a child, yet he did not have the Echo. That feels like it too could be important. Was that memory implanted into him? Or was he truly there, albeit as something else?

Wild Mass Guessing, he may have been created as a way to contain and study The Sound, and if so, that would explain why it has to be him, he is the original and current threat to the planet. Such a thing sounds incredibly crazy, but remember, one of the Unsundered Ascians was a mad scientist.

[Anonymoose]

I have a feeling the circumstances behind his birth is going to be very important for this. [snip] He outright mentions he has remembered the fall of Amaurot since he was a child

That's where I'm at; that there's some iceberg effect for a big picture here that we're not seeing most of yet. That's what I'm on the lookout for - something that makes sense of it in the game but also in the real world makes one think, "Ah, cool, that's a great idea for a story climax and fits well with what we've been doing since we got here." Something that says more than, "We wanted FFXIV to have a Sephiroth and the end boss of Final Fantasy never makes sense, anyway."

I especially want to feel like, "They're right, Zenos himself was a much better choice than a new character taking the same actions and given the same powers Zenos would have been."

There's an oft-unexplored chasm between "Saturday Morning Cartoon Evil" and "Sympathetic Villain" where you can understand that there was no other way for this to go and think it's a great story but still believe with all your heart, "screw that, tho."

For how long and hard the Ascians fought, I'm glad there was an understandable if not sympathetic angle to it; we all considered ourselves heroes competing for the same set of resources required to preserve the world we knew and loved.

But both "Evil for Evil's Sake" and "Sympathetic" seem like unsatisfying outcomes for Zenos if our boss is gonna be specifically Zenos. How are we going to get to somewhere in the middle? What makes it so much more satisfying that it wasn't anyone else? That's what I'm excited to see. (Or anxious to not see.)

[rainichan]

I liked him as a villain in SB, so the fact that he never really died was more intriguing for me. Right now he's kind of bland, watching everything from the shadows and just staring menacingly into the camera instead while giving Fandango the Look when he mentions the WoL. I've been curious where they're going to take him in terms of him having seen the Final Days since he was a kid, and the fact that he also has an Echo, faked or not. While it may be as simple as "if we create a crisis so bad that my favourite friend cannot ignore me anymore" I hope it comes down to more than that. I'll tinfoil it up here and say that perhaps he's already Zodiark, and he's just waiting for Hydaelyn's Champion to come for him that way.

April and Fall of this year cannot come fast enough.

[Cilia]

The thing about Zenos is that he's the only antagonist who's made things with the PC personal. Everyone else we've gone up against are just acting in their interests, and we go against them for ours (let's not get into ethical debates over the means and motives). Zenos, on the other hand, specifically allows the PC to survive and grow stronger for the sake of his own interests, and after his survived suicide does nothing but obsess over them. Further context notwithstanding it has to be Zenos because he won't stop until he gets what he wants and doesn't care what it takes. Even turning his homeland into a smoking waste doesn't seem to faze him, if the Endwalker teaser FMV is anything to go by.

As for why Zenos specifically, Fandaniel does question whether or not Emet-Selch "found a way" when Zenos mentions his dreams of the Final Days. Further, in the presentation it was said Fandaniel holds an important secret related to what's going on in Endwalker, and given the unanswered question above I'm inclined to believe it relates to that. What exactly that secret is I could not say.

[Minato777]

I feel like zenos had his time and now they are just plopping him into the story cause they need a big bad to finish the zodiark storyline.... like i liked him in stormblood. he was a good obstacle to overcome.... but that's just it we over came it. and now we just have a emo bloodkhight who wants to blow up the planet for shits and giggles. im sure they will try to make more out of him in upcoming patches and the expac itself. but so far im just not feeling it....

[Lusavari]

Something I think everyone has been overlooking forever, and I was thinking this when you did the podcast with Aetheryte Radio, Moose, is that the ability for people with the Echo/Resonant to be able to revive themself was established in 2.3 Through the Maelstrom with the Sahagin Priest that kept body jumping every time Merlwyb killed him until finally Leviathan appeared and when his soul was loose between jumps, Leviathan consumed his either. This did more than establish how to kill Ascians and immortals... This established a revival power. A power Minfilia made active use of for 100 years, though she felt herself being no better than an Ascian. If you re-watch the cutscene before Zenos takes over Shinryu... you realize he's not just a wild animal... he's terrifyingly intelligent. More intelligent than people give him credit for. His revival was part of his plan all along. We don't know enough about the Original Time Line though. All we know is Black Rose was used and it killed you off. But the butterfly effect ripples. It can probably be assumed in the ORIGINAL time line, you defeated Elidibus in the duel with Zenos and you destroyed his body there an then. This would have left a weakened Zenos (still very powerful) that didn't stop Varis. He probably kept to the shadows and soon after, Black Rose is released killing you off. Without you, he probably no longer had a reason to live or care, and started another chain of events. At the same time... Emet-Selch and Elidibus live in this time line and kept Fandaniel and Zenos in check.

In the NEW time line however... It's like the Android Saga... In Trunks coming back to change the future in small ways to give Goku medicine and warn him... unexpected threats emerged. Things changed.

My argument here though is that Zenos planned to revive. He wanted to learn the limits of The Resonant. The Resonant has been something that's not been explored further since we first really touched it outside of a few times with Fordola. Think on what Zenos says when he frees Shinryu though. He poses a question to you while both of you are cloaked in the blue flames Shinryu, a feral primal/eikon at this point, tries to Temper you with. Are you immune to the primals will because of The Echo? Or does the Echo give you the power to override their will? In this sense... Zenos presents the idea that you can Reverse Temper a primal. You can subsume their will and make them obey you. He then demonstrates this by taking over Shinryu. This isn't like Ysayle (Who I also believe isn't 100% dead and could revive IF she wanted) who summoned Shiva into herself as a host. He forcefully takes over Shinryu in the same way a Primal would take over a person they temper.

To this end, Zenos presents a brilliant character with some underappreciated brilliance. Think on this: Why do people love Goku in Dragon Ball? He practically has no personality of his own beyond just wanting to grow stronger. Vegeta is established as a far better husband and father than Goku who is tremendously neglectful of his family and doesn't really care about them. He's just single minded in his pursuit of strength. Zenos is in many ways what it would look like if Goku were evil. You might say there's more to Goku than this... and the same is true of Zenos. Zenos makes a great villain because there's a lot more to him that people credit him with. Goku upon achieving Ultra Instinct in the Tournament of Power proclaims he is not a hero and he doesn't have a great sense of Justice like Jiren. However, mess with his friends and he'll never forgive you. Zenos isn't exactly a villain. He's really indifferent and neutral. He just wants to fight you. He's an antagonist, but not a villain. And this plays into his relationship with Fandaniel. Fandaniel is playing with fire, and he knows it. He's aware of how smart Zenos is, and knows trying to manipulate Zenos is a dangerous game. He knows that with one slip up or underestimation of Zenos... it's game over. You can't look at Fandaniel and Zenos as friends. It's an uneasy partnership. Fandaniel has promised Zenos a rematch with you, but we know that if Fandaniel does ANYTHING to you, Zenos will destroy him. Zenos presents a brilliant juxtaposition to Fandaniel as it's very much like a partnership with The Joker and Doomsday. Joker promises Doomsday a fight with Superman. That's the best analogy I can think of. But it helps to stop thinking of Zenos as The Villain. Because that is not a role he plays. Antagonist, yes. Adversary, for sure. But he has no interest in ruling or even destroying the world. He just is. And for now, he's decided to play along with Fandaniel. He's a tool to Fandaniel. And his character is perfect for that role. He's not going to question Fandaniel. He's not going to have some moral quandary that prevents him from doing something that will harm innocents. At the same time, Fandaniel is also playing his game. A game many people are overlooking.

Think on how much effort Zenos put into learning about the Echo and primals. Something no one else the empire was doing. He has the Mongol Khan mentality. He doesn't fight his foes. He LEARNS about them. He learns their techniques and fighting styles and crushes them. Now he's interested in The Final Days. He clearly will push humanity to a new level of strength, and push you to a level to be able to deal with The Sound and its origin. His whole purpose is to push the Warrior of Light and Darkness beyond their limits to be deal threats they otherwise couldn't. Think on how much he monitored your progress in Stormblood. Zenos is an antagonistic mentor, like Master Asia in G Gundam. He learns his enemies and forces those he sees as an equal to exceed their limits.

[Lusavari]

But both "Evil for Evil's Sake" and "Sympathetic" seem like unsatisfying outcomes for Zenos if our boss is gonna be specifically Zenos.

That's part of the problem though. You're trying to apply a word to Zenos that is not applicable. He's not Evil. Nor is he good. Zenos merely IS. If you separate him from a Dungeons and Dragons morality system, it's much easier to appreciate. If he's anything, he's Chaotic Neutral. But even then, I don't think it captures who he is. Zenos was just acting as part of the Garlean Army because it was something to do. He cares little about the goals of the army. It just gave him a way to seek out fights and those quickly became boring to him. You need to see him as an unaligned entity. Because that's what he is.

[JeanneOrnitier]

I've said my piece on Zenos plenty of times before, but I cannot stand him. And not in a "you love the hate the villain" kind of way; I hate him in the way that whenever he's on screen I completely tune out and groan while he talks and just want him to leave.

He's an awful character, if he even counts as a character at all. He has no personality, he has no motivations, he has nothing at all beyond "muh fight". He's flat. He's a plot device. And after how wonderful Shadowbringers' villains were, I'm not even remotely interested in putting up with him again. Especially not if he's the last boss instead of Zodiark, the actual big bad who we've been waiting years for.

Please, please don't mess this up, Square. Don't end this story on such a sour note with such a horrible character as the villain, not after you just finished one of the best narratives in the entire Final Fantasy series.