Balance between SGE and SCH

So now that SGE is out and having played with it quite a bit in max level its quite apparent that SGE healing toolkit is too strong. It has way too much free oGCD heals. Its basically a SCH in the release of ShB (when we had no Energy Drain). By no means I think SGE should be nerfed. I think SCH need a slight potency adjust to be able to compete with SGE for a spot. Given that SGE does more DPS than SCH (including chain) and also heals a lot more. I don't think removing ED from SCH would do any good, specially because ED optimization is fun and one of the little optimizations healers still have. As the fairy cds are actually free now ( not costing a weave slot or a ruin2 ) the way to go is to buff fairy skill.

1) Whispering Dawn adjusted from 560 potency to 660 potency. At least 100 extra potency/ min

2) Fey illumination damage reduction from 5% to 10% and from magic damage to any damage. This would make it in line with SGE's holos (both are 2 mins)

3) Fey blessing adjusted from 320 to 450 ( so a party wide physick on a 1 minute cd)

4) Sacred Soil adjusted to no longer require aetherflow. As kerachole is massively better than soil, with soil only having +100 potency in healing, its unfair how SGE can have 50% uptime on kera for free while sch have to lose dps to do a slightly worse version

With those changes I believe SCH can compete equally for the shield healer spot in any party.

either fairies or laser turrets.. both works.. matters of preference uwu

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Originally Posted by Sighearth

With those changes I believe SCH can compete equally for the shield healer spot in any party.

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I don't think SCH need buffs like that it's just clunky is all. It's still a very powerful shield healer that can do insane Shields on demand, having a force Crit button on top of Deployment Tacticts is nutty and thanks to ENW's fixing the shield delay you can now even weave Deplo right after Crit Adlo making it super satisfying to perform. Sage can't do that. Sage also has no Excog or a Thrill of battle err i mean Protraction, which is another great heal, heal buff and damage mitigation tool. As far as i'm concerned both Jobs are equally strong, sage just plays better imo.

i'm pretty sure if ED got removed the Potency would flow over to Broil and Biolosys. So that would already fix your issue with sacred soil (or any Aetherflow abilities for that matter) being a DPS loss. Sacred Soil and kerachole are pretty much identical in what they do just a different execution so i don't really see the point of buffing it. In fact most Addersgall and Aetherflow abilities are identical minus the damage mitigation part.

Pretty sure Fey illumination isn't meant as a Damage Mitigation tool like Holos but rather a healing buff so you can erect bigger shields. The 5% magic damage mitigation is just a bonus. It's more comparable to Physis 2 which seems to me like Whispering Dawn and Fey Illumination combined into 1 button (which might be good or bad depending on who you ask). Holos is more comparable to Fey Blessing which has the exact same potency as Holos if you take Pet potency scaling into account.

I don't see what the fey blessing buff would achieve since you already have Indom as a AoE 30s CD Physick.

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Originally Posted by Sighearth

So now that SGE is out and having played with it quite a bit in max level its quite apparent that SGE healing toolkit is too strong. It has way too much free oGCD heals. Its basically a SCH in the release of ShB (when we had no Energy Drain). By no means I think SGE should be nerfed. I think SCH need a slight potency adjust to be able to compete with SGE for a spot. Given that SGE does more DPS than SCH (including chain) and also heals a lot more. I don't think removing ED from SCH would do any good, specially because ED optimization is fun and one of the little optimizations healers still have. As the fairy cds are actually free now ( not costing a weave slot or a ruin2 ) the way to go is to buff fairy skill.

1) Whispering Dawn adjusted from 560 potency to 660 potency. At least 100 extra potency/ min

2) Fey illumination damage reduction from 5% to 10% and from magic damage to any damage. This would make it in line with SGE's holos (both are 2 mins)

3) Fey blessing adjusted from 320 to 450 ( so a party wide physick on a 1 minute cd)

4) Sacred Soil adjusted to no longer require aetherflow. As kerachole is massively better than soil, with soil only having +100 potency in healing, its unfair how SGE can have 50% uptime on kera for free while sch have to lose dps to do a slightly worse version

With those changes I believe SCH can compete equally for the shield healer spot in any party.

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The sole thing I can think of besides minor potency tweaks would be to reduce the cast time of Adloquium (and Succor, but only adlo if we only get one) to 1.5 seconds. The biggest difference i feel between playing scholar and sage is the fact that Sage shields FEEL more snappier and reactive to throw out. And that is primarily because of the fact Eukrasia serves as a "psuedo-cast time" where it is still technically a cast time of Eukrasia's GCD to cast the shield, but you can at the very least move during said "cast time". While this wouldn't solve the fact SCH would still need to sit and cast to use their shields, this would at least give a similar amount of reactiveness, and would allow you to instantly use deployment tactics at the end of the cast without it clipping the gcd.

Broil IV :

295 (what's this weird potency ?) => 300

Dissipation :

20% healing spell boost => 10% healing action boost

Fey Illumination :

10% healing spell boost => 5%/10% healing action boost.

That's the least I'm asking for.

SCH can already compete with SGE, it doesn't need buffs even though I certainly wouldn't be against them.

My point its: Why would you get a SCH instead of a SGE? SGE has better dps and has better healing. Biggers shields on demand? By design SE would never make the difference in shields obligatory as it would lock sch as the shield healer, same with the party sprint. From a pure potency perspective there is no reason to ever bring a sch over sge. At least with WHM vs AST, there are situations where cure 3 can shine and you say, well WHM could make a difference here (same with living dead)

I just want something to do with the Fairy Gauge other than Fey Union because it seems like I'm hardly ever using it.

A nice beefly aoe perhaps? With Bane gone from SMN we could get that but with a direct hit instead of spreading dots.

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Originally Posted by Sighearth

My point its: Why would you get a SCH instead of a SGE? SGE has better dps and has better healing. Biggers shields on demand? By design SE would never make the difference in shields obligatory as it would lock sch as the shield healer, same with the party sprint. From a pure potency perspective there is no reason to ever bring a sch over sge. At least with WHM vs AST, there are situations where cure 3 can shine and you say, well WHM could make a difference here (same with living dead)

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Having your party ignore a Mechanic because of a big shield is very valuable. Also the chain stratagem is a very desirable Raid buff. Esp in later patches when Crit materia become more valueable due to how it scales.

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Originally Posted by Sighearth

My point its: Why would you get a SCH instead of a SGE? SGE has better dps and has better healing. Biggers shields on demand? By design SE would never make the difference in shields obligatory as it would lock sch as the shield healer, same with the party sprint. From a pure potency perspective there is no reason to ever bring a sch over sge. At least with WHM vs AST, there are situations where cure 3 can shine and you say, well WHM could make a difference here (same with living dead)

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You are using a very flawed logic. Why could Cure III make a difference but not bigger shields or Expedient? Cure III is not even that special anymore, especially when we also consider the limited range and WHM's MP economy.

Why bring RDM if BLM simply does more damage? Content is not required to have Magick Barrier, so it makes no sense to ever bring a RDM. Why use WAR if DRK deals more damage? Content is not balanced around Shake it Off, so there is no reason to bring a WAR. I could go on.

Some jobs shine more during prog, other jobs are better suited for kills/speed kills. There is nothing wrong with this as long as every job is more than capable to hold their own in every environment.

SCH has Expedient, bigger shields, remote healing and a kit than handles emergencies better than SGE's does, which makes it the better "prog healer". Even the point about SGE having more heals is moot, as Energy Drain (and DPS in general) doesn't really matter, which means that SCH has just as much healing as Sage, if not even more. However, this doesn't really matter much because SGE is more than capable to be a prog healer. SGE currently does more damage (although we know Chain Stratagem will get better), but again, this doesn't mean much when SCH's DPS is more than enough to obtain a kill without forcing a perfect play from your party.

The balance between WHM and AST is in a much more dangerous situation.

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Originally Posted by Sighearth

At least with WHM vs AST, there are situations where cure 3 can shine and you say, well WHM could make a difference here (same with living dead)

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Cure III is absolutely rubbish now. You'd never bring a WHM over an AST for Cure III. The only reason people bring WHM over AST is gameplay. AST is a pain to play with all the useless new oGCD's to juggle and WHM is straightforward. It's a badly designed, weak healer, but it's still more fun.

Unfortunately the same applies to SCH. As long as SCH has a clunky fairy to micromanage and pays tax for Aether heals while Sage has no gimmick and fires oGCD's out for free, it'll be more popular. Potency buffs won't change much. SCH already has a solid toolkit, it's just clunky to play and players don't enjoy that.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

I just want something to do with the Fairy Gauge other than Fey Union because it seems like I'm hardly ever using it.

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PvP Scholar's got what you want.

I'd like to see aetherflow heals grant a free usage of Energy Drain just so Scholar isn't penalised 100p for needing to heal as a healer.
It'd make it nicer to play alongside WHM too, since both jobs have heals that they want to avoid (Misery doesn't refund all the damage sacrified from Solace/Rapture)

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

Cure III is absolutely rubbish now. You'd never bring a WHM over an AST for Cure III. The only reason people bring WHM over AST is gameplay. AST is a pain to play with all the useless new oGCD's to juggle and WHM is straightforward. It's a badly designed, weak healer, but it's still more fun.

Unfortunately the same applies to SCH. As long as SCH has a clunky fairy to micromanage and pays tax for Aether heals while Sage has no gimmick and fires oGCD's out for free, it'll be more popular. Potency buffs won't change much. SCH already has a solid toolkit, it's just clunky to play and players don't enjoy that.

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that was just an example, WHM still has more on demand GCD pure heal than AST which is a niche that may be used in a fight

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Originally Posted by rewd

You are using a very flawed logic. Why could Cure III make a difference but not bigger shields or Expedient? Cure III is not even that special anymore, especially when we also consider the limited range and WHM's MP economy.

Why bring RDM if BLM simply does more damage? Content is not required to have Magick Barrier, so it makes no sense to ever bring a RDM. Why use WAR if DRK deals more damage? Content is not balanced around Shake it Off, so there is no reason to bring a WAR. I could go on.

Some jobs shine more during prog, other jobs are better suited for kills/speed kills. There is nothing wrong with this as long as every job is more than capable to hold their own in every environment.

SCH has Expedient, bigger shields, remote healing and a kit than handles emergencies better than SGE's does, which makes it the better "prog healer". Even the point about SGE having more heals is moot, as Energy Drain (and DPS in general) doesn't really matter, which means that SCH has just as much healing as Sage, if not even more. However, this doesn't really matter much because SGE is more than capable to be a prog healer. SGE currently does more damage (although we know Chain Stratagem will get better), but again, this doesn't mean much when SCH's DPS is more than enough to obtain a kill without forcing a perfect play from your party.

The balance between WHM and AST is in a much more dangerous situation.

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Its not a flawed logic. Cure 3 is a gcd heal, all healers have gcd heals. You can have an ast spamming helios for the same effect with less efficiency. If bigger shields (shield values that other healer have no access) were mandatory, obviously that would lock sch spot which will never happen. Same with expedience, as only sch has access. its not like other healers have a worse/different version of it.

Why bring other other jobs if someone is always the numerical superior? Because if this numerical difference is small enough than its no biggie, thats why

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Originally Posted by Brandedblade

The sole thing I can think of besides minor potency tweaks would be to reduce the cast time of Adloquium (and Succor, but only adlo if we only get one) to 1.5 seconds. The biggest difference i feel between playing scholar and sage is the fact that Sage shields FEEL more snappier and reactive to throw out. And that is primarily because of the fact Eukrasia serves as a "psuedo-cast time" where it is still technically a cast time of Eukrasia's GCD to cast the shield, but you can at the very least move during said "cast time". While this wouldn't solve the fact SCH would still need to sit and cast to use their shields, this would at least give a similar amount of reactiveness, and would allow you to instantly use deployment tactics at the end of the cast without it clipping the gcd.

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They could upgrade recitation to make adlo/succor instant (with or instead of mp free).

As for SGE/SCH healing potencies ; SGE can get better shields. In zadnor I had shields worth more than target hp with Zoe and a crit (I may had lucky RNG but I got that a lot) while critlo only went to 50-65 %.
Deployement tactics may be good but it still feel like a scam to me deploying only half the shield

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Originally Posted by Sighearth

Its not a flawed logic. Cure 3 is a gcd heal, all healers have gcd heals. You can have an ast spamming helios for the same effect with less efficiency. If bigger shields (shield values that other healer have no access) were mandatory, obviously that would lock sch spot which will never happen. Same with expedience, as only sch has access. its not like other healers have a worse/different version of it.

Why bring other other jobs if someone is always the numerical superior? Because if this numerical difference is small enough than its no biggie, thats why

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Not every GCD heal is the same.
Helios: 400 healing potency, 15y radius, 700 MP (on the healer with infinite MP), costs 250 damage potency
Cure III: 600 healing potency, 6y radius, 1500 MP (on the healer with the worst MP economy), costs 310 damage potency.

None of this screams "more efficient" at all.

Yours is indeed a flawed logic. Bigger shields and Expedient are very strong exactly because they are not mandatory. As such, they are an advantage and not a requirement. Why do you think Divine Veil, Shake it off or Passage of Arms are strong skills? Becausethey are not mandatory (nothing is anyway) and represent a clear advantage that give you an easier time in prog/in some strats.

Unless a job is hilariously undertuned (like PLD and DNC at the moment), it doesn't matter. SCH and SGE have both their pros and cons (and they could even be used together to great results, making your point even worse). If and when Chain Stratagem gives SCH higher rDPS, will you be asking for SGE buffs because there is no reason to use it?

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Originally Posted by Brandedblade

The sole thing I can think of besides minor potency tweaks would be to reduce the cast time of Adloquium (and Succor, but only adlo if we only get one) to 1.5 seconds. The biggest difference i feel between playing scholar and sage is the fact that Sage shields FEEL more snappier and reactive to throw out. And that is primarily because of the fact Eukrasia serves as a "psuedo-cast time" where it is still technically a cast time of Eukrasia's GCD to cast the shield, but you can at the very least move during said "cast time". While this wouldn't solve the fact SCH would still need to sit and cast to use their shields, this would at least give a similar amount of reactiveness, and would allow you to instantly use deployment tactics at the end of the cast without it clipping the gcd.

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The cast time to do a Barrier is roughly 1.5 seconds (I think) as oppose to the near 2 seconds there is to cast Adlo.
I believe the issue with SCH is simply the cast times and SGE is just faster at deploying the shields.
I mentioned elsewhere, but Adlo + Deploy is clunky and takes too long to get out.
SGE has a lot of instant stuff that gets the job done quick.
SCH still needs to place succor, get Adloploy, get stuff ready for Faerie when with SGE it's all done with a single button.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

Unfortunately the same applies to SCH. As long as SCH has a clunky fairy to micromanage and pays tax for Aether heals while Sage has no gimmick and fires oGCD's out for free, it'll be more popular. Potency buffs won't change much. SCH already has a solid toolkit, it's just clunky to play and players don't enjoy that.

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I think it's okay for SCH to still have decision making for AF usage.
Especially now that weaving is better.

I don't think SCH is clunky
its just incredibly lazy in both gameplay and design that you can do just as much as Sage with minimal effort.

I've mained SCH for years.... Without getting into skills and what could be done for the job, I think the OP still has a point. It feels underwhelming now compared to other healer jobs.

SCH used to be the niche barrier healer. We'll know how things shake out more with new raids and patches, but SGE seems snappier, more DPS, and apparently can overwrite SCH shields with weaker ones.

I'm just not seeing SCH's selling point or utility anymore compared to other healing jobs. SCH is a job that now feels best suited for learning parties when you need to overcompensate for players who don't know mechanics (e.g. expedient). If I'm running raids or even dungeons with a group who knows the basics of how to play, I feel like any of the other healer jobs would serve the party better.

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Originally Posted by PikoAliapoh

I've mained SCH for years.... Without getting into skills and what could be done for the job, I think the OP still has a point. It feels underwhelming now compared to other healer jobs.

SCH used to be the niche barrier healer. We'll know how things shake out more with new raids and patches, but SGE seems snappier, more DPS, and apparently can overwrite SCH shields with weaker ones.

I'm just not seeing SCH's selling point or utility anymore compared to other healing jobs. SCH is a job that now feels best suited for learning parties when you need to overcompensate for players who don't know mechanics (e.g. expedient). If I'm running raids or even dungeons with a group who knows the basics of how to play, I feel like any of the other healer jobs would serve the party better.

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I've also mained SCH for years, and have only switched to SGE due to how good it feels to play.

I think your logic is quite flawed though, as 90% of the time you're effectively dealing with prog in the first place. Both actual prog as well as weekly raids you effectively have to treat in a similar manner in that people die over lack of knowledge/skill as well as laziness all the time. SCH's overcompensation lets us deal with that quite well, which means that only on speed kills and farms does SCH lose its appeal. But at that point, who cares about such details. Speed kills will optimize to the point that any weird thing (including the chance to completely ignore mechanics) can be the reason why you pick particular jobs, and for farm, nobody cares what you take as long as it doesn't increase the chance of a wipe.

As things stand, as a SGE, I want my cohealer to be SCH of all things rather than an AST or WHM. People are really undervaluing expediant and protraction. Maybe protraction isn't some god skill, but expediant certainly is, and I strongly believe that prog groups will be begging for SCHs who know how to use expedient properly.

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Originally Posted by rewd

Not every GCD heal is the same.
Helios: 400 healing potency, 15y radius, 700 MP (on the healer with infinite MP), costs 250 damage potency
Cure III: 600 healing potency, 6y radius, 1500 MP (on the healer with the worst MP economy), costs 310 damage potency.

None of this screams "more efficient" at all.

Yours is indeed a flawed logic. Bigger shields and Expedient are very strong exactly because they are not mandatory. As such, they are an advantage and not a requirement. Why do you think Divine Veil, Shake it off or Passage of Arms are strong skills? Becausethey are not mandatory (nothing is anyway) and represent a clear advantage that give you an easier time in prog/in some strats.

Unless a job is hilariously undertuned (like PLD and DNC at the moment), it doesn't matter. SCH and SGE have both their pros and cons (and they could even be used together to great results, making your point even worse). If and when Chain Stratagem gives SCH higher rDPS, will you be asking for SGE buffs because there is no reason to use it?

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1) It actually screams efficiency, suppose you need 4000 potency to heal the party. WHM -> 6.6 Cure III (10 000 MP) and 2046 damage potency cost.
AST -> 10 Helios -> (7000 MP) 2500 damage potency cost.
So cure 3 achieves that in less gcds (meaning faster), costing less damage. If you use 2 thin airs, the MP cost will be the same (7000 MP)

2) I'm not saying that they are not strong enough because those are not mandatory, what I'm saying is that they will NOT be used to guarantee a sch,PLD,etc a spot exactly because they are not mandatory. What is mandatory is damage, if the damage discrepancy between 2 jobs is high it doesn't matter any other utility that does not translate to damage. SGE have 30% more free heals than SCH while also doing more damage. That 30% translates directly into damage that makes the situation worse. Now get SCH and don't use ED at all to compete with SGE healing, you will be healing more than SGE but SCH dps will be so much worse than SGE that this discrepancy will makes SGE objectively better choice. SCH can be behind SGE and terms of DPS and healing, even if chain surpasses the breakpoint of 8% SCHs DPS, the problem is that 30% free healing difference is too much. For SCH to be close to SGE (even if it loses by a small margin) it will be healing way less. Can bigger shields. expedience, translate in more raid dps? Maybe in niche situations that more likely than not will not make SCH a more attractive choice.

3) SCH and SGE working good does not goes against my argument. On the contrary, SCH can't replace SGE so it works with it because it does more damage than AST currently. As WHM can't free heal, the other contender would be SCH or AST (that can free heal) since AST dps is way too low right now, SCH wins out. If AST gets a slight dps potency adjust then the speed kill/optimization comp will not be SCH/SGE but AST/SGE.

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Originally Posted by Sighearth

that was just an example, WHM still has more on demand GCD pure heal than AST which is a niche that may be used in a fight

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WHM literally only has Cure III over AST and there is no niche for Cure III. There is nowhere you need to spam it. There wasn't in ShB either and now we have buffed heals and abilities specifically designed to handle back to back raid damage. Cure III doesn't even beat Plenary + Lily. That's assuming your party is neatly stacked for you, in Duty Finder you might as well take it off your bar because 9 times out of 10 everyone is scattered.

AST has tons of burst heal with Star, Macrocosmos, Neutral Sect, CoOpp, CU, Horoscope Helios and AspHelios (which is now 1000 total potency). That niche situation once a fight on Savage where multiple Cure III might seem like it's useful, an AST can heal three times over.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

WHM literally only has Cure III over AST and there is no niche for Cure III. There is nowhere you need to spam it. There wasn't in ShB either and now we have buffed heals and abilities specifically designed to handle back to back raid damage. Cure III doesn't even beat Plenary + Lily. That's assuming your party is neatly stacked for you, in Duty Finder you might as well take it off your bar because 9 times out of 10 everyone is scattered.

AST has tons of burst heal with Star, Macrocosmos, Neutral Sect, CoOpp, CU, Horoscope Helios and AspHelios (which is now 1000 total potency). That niche situation once a fight on Savage where multiple Cure III might seem like it's useful, an AST can heal three times over.

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Hmm terminal relativity, Adds enrage phase in TEA are some examples that cure 3 is pretty strong. Aside from that, yea AST has more free healing oGCD healing (way more) but at least WHM dps is much better than AST. In the case of SGE/SCH imagine if WHM did more dps than AST but also healed more.

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Originally Posted by Sighearth

1) It actually screams efficiency, suppose you need 4000 potency to heal the party. WHM -> 6.6 Cure III (10 000 MP) and 2046 damage potency cost.
AST -> 10 Helios -> (7000 MP) 2500 damage potency cost.
So cure 3 achieves that in less gcds (meaning faster), costing less damage. If you use 2 thin airs, the MP cost will be the same (7000 MP)

2) I'm not saying that they are not strong enough because those are not mandatory, what I'm saying is that they will NOT be used to guarantee a sch,PLD,etc a spot exactly because they are not mandatory. What is mandatory is damage, if the damage discrepancy between 2 jobs is high it doesn't matter any other utility that does not translate to damage. SGE have 30% more free heals than SCH while also doing more damage. That 30% translates directly into damage that makes the situation worse. Now get SCH and don't use ED at all to compete with SGE healing, you will be healing more than SGE but SCH dps will be so much worse than SGE that this discrepancy will makes SGE objectively better choice. SCH can be behind SGE and terms of DPS and healing, even if chain surpasses the breakpoint of 8% SCHs DPS, the problem is that 30% free healing difference is too much. For SCH to be close to SGE (even if it loses by a small margin) it will be healing way less. Can bigger shields. expedience, translate in more raid dps? Maybe in niche situations that more likely than not will not make SCH a more attractive choice.

3) SCH and SGE working good does not goes against my argument. On the contrary, SCH can't replace SGE so it works with it because it does more damage than AST currently. As WHM can't free heal, the other contender would be SCH or AST (that can free heal) since AST dps is way too low right now, SCH wins out. If AST gets a slight dps potency adjust then the speed kill/optimization comp will not be SCH/SGE but AST/SGE.

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1) You had to use a hyperbole to "prove" that Cure III is great/can make a difference. Why do I even need that much healing? Why do I use 10 Helios and not my plethora of oGCDs (that are also on a short CD)? it doesn't make sense.

2) I don't know how you can get the point and also miss it at the same time. If the damage difference between two jobs is not significant enough (like between Sage and Scholar), then there's not an issue. When the difference is significant (DRK and PLD), the undertuned job does need to be buffed. It's as simple as that.

3) SCH can't replace SGE? I'm pretty sure SCH was able to clear current EXs and I'm pretty sure it won't have any problem with upcoming Savage.

You are talking in hyperboles, making assumptions that conveniently ignore other factors (if AST can get a DPS buff, why can't WHM, for example?) and most importantly you are conflating balance and speedrun meta for no particular reason.

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Originally Posted by rewd

1) You had to use a hyperbole to "prove" that Cure III is great/can make a difference. Why do I even need that much healing? Why do I use 10 Helios and not my plethora of oGCDs (that are also on a short CD)? it doesn't make sense.

2) I don't know how you can get the point and also miss it at the same time. If the damage difference between two jobs is not significant enough (like between Sage and Scholar), then there's not an issue. When the difference is significant (DRK and PLD), the under tuned job does need to be buffed. It's as simple as that.

3) SCH can't replace SGE? I'm pretty sure SCH was able to clear current EXs and I'm pretty sure it won't have any problem with upcoming Savage.

You are talking in hyperboles, making assumptions that conveniently ignore other factors (if AST can get a DPS buff, why can't WHM, for example?) and most importantly you are conflating balance and speedrun meta for no particular reason.

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1) Its not a hyperbole, cure III is a more efficient healing GCD. That was the comparison.

2) Our definitions of significant are widely different. If you take ONLY the dps difference between 95% percentile SGE and SCHs from both primals, SCH does 5.3% less dps than SGE. In the same metric with DRK and PLD is 8.2%. In fights where the healing is a null point. If you consider SGE doing 5.3% more damage with 30% more free healing (that is not currently used as this is still easy content) "not significant enough" I don't know what to say. If that extra 30% is required (i.e SCH not using ED because it needs to heal) than that 5.3 can easily top that 8.2% that you consider "significant"

3) Completing content was never an argument You can clear both primals solo healing, even with no heals at all. You can even clear UCOB with only tanks.

It doesn't matter what kind of meta you want to choose, if a healer can bring more dps and more heals it will be meta in anything.

Just a quick edit. Energy drain is around 5% of SCH DPS if used in full. That 5.3% difference is already accounting for all stacks going into ED. Wanna heal close to SGE? Wanna spend your stacks in healing so you can bring that 30% margin down and do 5% less damage? Then the difference would be higher than 9% in DPS. Which by your standards is "significant"

Wanna (as sch) heal as much if not a little bit higher than SGE? Then do 9% less dps. Wanna do comparable DPS (5.3% less) then heal 30% less. How is this not significant. My point is, let SGE do 5.3% more dps its fine, just lets bring that 30% less healing down to a 15% maybe 10%.

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Originally Posted by Sighearth

1) It actually screams efficiency, suppose you need 4000 potency to heal the party. WHM -> 6.6 Cure III (10 000 MP) and 2046 damage potency cost.
AST -> 10 Helios -> (7000 MP) 2500 damage potency cost.
So cure 3 achieves that in less gcds (meaning faster), costing less damage. If you use 2 thin airs, the MP cost will be the same (7000 MP)

2) I'm not saying that they are not strong enough because those are not mandatory, what I'm saying is that they will NOT be used to guarantee a sch,PLD,etc a spot exactly because they are not mandatory. What is mandatory is damage, if the damage discrepancy between 2 jobs is high it doesn't matter any other utility that does not translate to damage. SGE have 30% more free heals than SCH while also doing more damage. That 30% translates directly into damage that makes the situation worse. Now get SCH and don't use ED at all to compete with SGE healing, you will be healing more than SGE but SCH dps will be so much worse than SGE that this discrepancy will makes SGE objectively better choice. SCH can be behind SGE and terms of DPS and healing, even if chain surpasses the breakpoint of 8% SCHs DPS, the problem is that 30% free healing difference is too much. For SCH to be close to SGE (even if it loses by a small margin) it will be healing way less. Can bigger shields. expedience, translate in more raid dps? Maybe in niche situations that more likely than not will not make SCH a more attractive choice.

3) SCH and SGE working good does not goes against my argument. On the contrary, SCH can't replace SGE so it works with it because it does more damage than AST currently. As WHM can't free heal, the other contender would be SCH or AST (that can free heal) since AST dps is way too low right now, SCH wins out. If AST gets a slight dps potency adjust then the speed kill/optimization comp will not be SCH/SGE but AST/SGE.

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you are kind of wrong with comparing helios and cure III in 2 regards.

1) helios equal to whm medica except helios cost 700 compare to whm medica 900 and has 1.5 cast time compare to 2 seconds for medica.

2) cure III while having ability to target, its range is 6y meaning u have to be super close to the target to feel that, and while you compare 1 cure III spam to helios cure III cost 1500 mp while helios cost 700 meaning ast will reduce his mp less and also can wave ogcd with helios something whm cant do as easy after cure III or medica allowing him to surpass cure III effect and even range.

those are 2 crucial impacts that allow fluid healing compare to whm right now and since the only difference here is cure III your points that cure III makes it worth it cause its not mendatory the same can be said about ast ogcd and with that makes ast even more appealing for healing then whm cause he can spam even more faster and chain healing properly if needed unlike cure III spam.

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Originally Posted by CrimsonGunner

you are kind of wrong with comparing helios and cure III in 2 regards.

1) helios equal to whm medica except helios cost 700 compare to whm medica 900 and has 1.5 cast time compare to 2 seconds for medica.

2) cure III while having ability to target, its range is 6y meaning u have to be super close to the target to feel that, and while you compare 1 cure III spam to helios cure III cost 1500 mp while helios cost 700 meaning ast will reduce his mp less and also can wave ogcd with helios something whm cant do as easy after cure III or medica allowing him to surpass cure III effect and even range.

those are 2 crucial impacts that allow fluid healing compare to whm right now and since the only difference here is cure III your points that cure III makes it worth it cause its not mendatory the same can be said about ast ogcd and with that makes ast even more appealing for healing then whm cause he can spam even more faster and chain healing properly if needed unlike cure III spam.

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I think you missed some of my previous posts in this topic. Doing 6 cure III with 2 thin air is the same as 10 helios as I explained before. I was doing a comparison between those 2 gcds (helios and cure 3) in a situation where you would need burst aoe heal on demand (meaning without cds so GCD heals) WHM still is a power house in GCD heal potency which is a niche that WHM could have a lead in comparison to AST. I'm not comparing their full toolkits. Obviously AST full kit is stronger healing wise than WHM. Yet WHM does way more damage than AST currently if someone can carry the heals. What if AST despite having way more heals also did more damage than WHM? This is what the situation with SCH/SGE is. IF you want damage between (ast/whm) bring whm, if you want heals bring ast, which is fine. For SCH/SGE, if you wanna damage bring SGE (by 5.3%), if you wanna heals also bring SGE (by almost 30%!).

When do you need to cast six Cure 3s?

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Originally Posted by Sighearth

I think you missed some of my previous posts in this topic. Doing 6 cure III with 2 thin air is the same as 10 helios as I explained before. I was doing a comparison between those 2 gcds (helios and cure 3) in a situation where you would need burst aoe heal on demand (meaning without cds so GCD heals) WHM still is a power house in GCD heal potency which is a niche that WHM could have a lead in comparison to AST. I'm not comparing their full toolkits. Obviously AST full kit is stronger healing wise than WHM. Yet WHM does way more damage than AST currently if someone can carry the heals. What if AST despite having way more heals also did more damage than WHM? This is what the situation with SCH/SGE is. IF you want damage between (ast/whm) bring whm, if you want heals bring ast, which is fine. For SCH/SGE, if you wanna damage bring SGE (by 5.3%), if you wanna heals also bring SGE (by almost 30%!).

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but ast will do more damage then whm, ast rdps contribution outdamage whm adps if timed right and now with divination not rely on cards its basically guranteed on burst windows timing. whm glare compare to malefic is small in comparison to the damage buff ast brings to a group and a well played group at that boost ast significantly then any selfish damage whm can output.

again its not true if u need to spam gcd cure III compare to helios, helios will win cause it can last longer, if for instance u need 1 cure III and ast will cast helios he will endure more the whm casting.

if u have a prolong phase where u spam heal gcd and u only have cure III compare to helios cure III will drain the mp much faster even if u delay casting gcd(1.5k mp), its range wont reach everyone unless they stack together(6y) and its cast time is slower.(2s)

however ast can last longer due to low mp cost (700 mp) have wider range which reaches everyone(15y), and faster casting time(1.5) meaning he can much easily top people before the next strike.

no matter how u compare it whm right now loses in every aspect to ast and our talk does not include ast brings shields along side his healing toolkit something whm cant compete or the fact that his gauge is the only one among the healers that wont be full when the fight starts.
right now the only reason you bring whm cause it has the basic healer reputation going on for him and nothing else,everything whm does ast does it better as things stands.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

When do you need to cast six Cure 3s?

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Nowhere lol, that was some illustrative random numbers.

I think there are a quite lot of problems with Scholar that Sage do not face.

Sage has some abilities that cancel each other but Scholar has abilities that literally make other abilities unable to be casted...

I like the fairy, but us eating it to cast some abilities really do it some injustice...

It has become much smoother than before for sure but the changes are underwhelming.

Also, White mages and Astro, I do not play these classes that much so can you tell me if your two jobs have any package of spells that legit cancel each others'?

Cause if you have now a Sage and a Scholar in the same team, you can hear the big "sigh" coming from the other side of the galaxy through your computer screen, accepting the fact that "I guess my shields are not working now, thaaanks..."

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Originally Posted by Shuuli

Cause if you have now a Sage and a Scholar in the same team, you can hear the big "sigh" coming from the other side of the galaxy through your computer screen, accepting the fact that "I guess my shields are not working now, thaaanks..."

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All it takes is one question to solve that 'sigh': "Hey, I'll be leaving the Succor/E.Prognosis duty to you, is that fine?"

If it's a party of randoms in via DF, all you have to determine is whether your co-SGE/SCH will use their GCD shield really often or not. Every other kits in their arsenals besides their GCD spells works together.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

All it takes is one question to solve that 'sigh': "Hey, I'll be leaving the Succor/E.Prognosis duty to you, is that fine?"

If it's a party of randoms in via DF, all you have to determine is whether your co-SGE/SCH will use their GCD shield really often or not. Every other kits in their arsenals besides their GCD spells works together.

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While this is true it is objectively bad design that they clash this bad. Obviously it wouldn't be good for shield stacks to totally trivialize content either but it would be nice if they could find an elegant way to solve 'shield collisions,' which have always been a problem, though that may be more a back end sorta issue rather than a class design issue.

And they definitely do need to pass over SCH and clean up how all the fairy abilities interact with each other and get rid of all those 'remove all those fairy abilities to get some sort of benefit in exchange' effects. It is conceptually interesting for SCH to say... have a super-mode where they can't use their fairy but get more healing and aetherflow, or replace their fairy with a different pool of effects, but people... kinda wanna use the abilities of the fairy when playing the class with the fairy, wildly enough, and I would rather the job be more designed around its interaction with its shield modifications and ability to make the fairy do stuff to set you up for success than eating it to spam ED 3 more times.

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Originally Posted by dezzmont

And they definitely do need to pass over SCH and clean up how all the fairy abilities interact with each other and get rid of all those 'remove all those fairy abilities to get some sort of benefit in exchange' effects. It is conceptually interesting for SCH to say... have a super-mode where they can't use their fairy but get more healing and aetherflow, or replace their fairy with a different pool of effects, but people... kinda wanna use the abilities of the fairy when playing the class with the fairy, wildly enough, and I would rather the job be more designed around its interaction with its shield modifications and ability to make the fairy do stuff to set you up for success than eating it to spam ED 3 more times.

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Couldn't agree more there. Ironically the PvP counterpart of Dissipation looks more interesting despite being simpler effect wise.