Sage quick mechanics overview

When yoshida said go play sage if you want to do damage and heal, like any healer whose followed the hall of the novice does or even realised that the party hp is topped off, he wasn't joking

Adderssting: this is your dps stacks. You get a stack every time your eucrasian diagnosis is completely broken
You spend these on toxikon. Since eukrasian diagnosis has a galvanise effect you ironically DONT want a crit shield here as it will delay them

This means you actually have a dps rotation that varies depending on your tank's CD usage and how much the boss decides its gonna be untargetable.
Since you don't want them using mitigation as you can get your toxikon stacks out more from your shield busting. However, it does cost a gcd to get that shield on and toxikon only returns equal potency as a dosis 3. In other words...use dosis 3 on the boss unless the tank's a bit soft rn

So in raids its not worthwhile to shield someone outside of when the boss is away. In dungeons and alliance raids however, toxikon is better as it might be a slight dps gain on aoe.

idk i don't optimise to that degree.

Addersgall: you get one every 20s automatically and 1 every 90s from rizomata. You use them on druo/taurochole, ixochole and kerachole which are your mp restores and ogcd heals. As usual these are just better versions of the same buttons in other jobs.

Self buffs: Zoe, krasis and soteria. Zoe is your "I need to top off living dead" buff because it affects healing SPELLS. Of which you have...2 (4 if you count eukrasia version) which are your cure and medica equivalents. (which change to adloquim and succor)
Use it on diagnosis for a 900p heal on living dead which STILL hasn't been fixed.

Eukrasia: Turns your cure into adlo, medica into succor, your nuke into your dot
Pop eukrasian prognosis then pepsis if you want to top everyone off quickly

everything else is your standard stuff

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Originally Posted by Recon1o6

When yoshida said go play sage if you want to do damage and heal, like any healer whose followed the hall of the novice does or even realised that the party hp is topped off, he wasn't joking

Adderssting: this is your dps stacks. You get a stack every time your eucrasian diagnosis is completely broken
You spend these on toxikon. Since eukrasian diagnosis has a galvanise effect you ironically DONT want a crit shield here as it will delay them

This means you actually have a dps rotation that varies depending on your tank's CD usage and how much the boss decides its gonna be untargetable.
Since you don't want them using mitigation as you can get your toxikon stacks out more from your shield busting. However, it does cost a gcd to get that shield on and toxikon only returns equal potency as a dosis 3. In other words...use dosis 3 on the boss unless the tank's a bit soft rn

So in raids its not worthwhile to shield someone outside of when the boss is away. In dungeons and alliance raids however, toxikon is better as it might be a slight dps gain on aoe.

idk i don't optimise to that degree.

Addersgall: you get one every 20s automatically and 1 every 90s from rizomata. You use them on druo/taurochole, ixochole and kerachole which are your mp restores and ogcd heals. As usual these are just better versions of the same buttons in other jobs.

Self buffs: Zoe, krasis and soteria. Zoe is your "I need to top off living dead" buff because it affects healing SPELLS. Of which you have...2 (4 if you count eukrasia version) which are your cure and medica equivalents. (which change to adloquim and succor)
Use it on diagnosis for a 900p heal on living dead which STILL hasn't been fixed.

Eukrasia: Turns your cure into adlo, medica into succor, your nuke into your dot
Pop eukrasian prognosis then pepsis if you want to top everyone off quickly

everything else is your standard stuff

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And a quick addition. Addersting's dps spell is not a DPS gain in Single Target, only DPS neutral and with instant cast time. It is also only a marginal gain in AOE (Mathmatically it's just the AOE spell with your first target being hit twice, as after the first target the damage falls off to 50% of original damage). Meaning that you're encouraged to not go for addersting at all if your OGCDs can cover for the damage.

Toxicon is not even DPS neutral.
It's a dps loss.

It becomes DPS neutral if you had nothing else to move with.

I've went over this in depth in a deleted thread, but Toxikon is entirely useless even in AoE. The damage drop off is so severe that it's actually DPS neutral to just lose a GCD cast. If you have no sting and you need to move, you're actually better off just overwriting your Eukrasia Dosis DoT than you are using Eukrasia Diagnosis for a barrier unless you feel like you need that barrier, which will be pretty rare given how plentiful and powerful Sage's OGCD healing is. Even in harder content, I imagine you'd more likely prefer Eukrasia Prognosis for the group barrier if you really need some healing.

Even in AoE it's useless. Get the pre-pull proc off it, but because of the 50% drop off on secondary targets, the damage is just worse than 2 uses of Dyskrasia. The math on Toxikon is just garbage.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

I've went over this in depth in a deleted thread, but Toxikon is entirely useless even in AoE. The damage drop off is so severe that it's actually DPS neutral to just lose a GCD cast. If you have no sting and you need to move, you're actually better off just overwriting your Eukrasia Dosis DoT than you are using Eukrasia Diagnosis for a barrier unless you feel like you need that barrier, which will be pretty rare given how plentiful and powerful Sage's OGCD healing is. Even in harder content, I imagine you'd more likely prefer Eukrasia Prognosis for the group barrier if you really need some healing.

Even in AoE it's useless. Get the pre-pull proc off it, but because of the 50% drop off on secondary targets, the damage is just worse than 2 uses of Dyskrasia. The math on Toxikon is just garbage.

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Taurochole, Soteria, Krasis, Ixiochole, Haima. All these abilities are better options than to lose a GCD to Eukrasian Diagnosis to apply a barrier. Jeez, another kit that fights itself.

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Originally Posted by GrimGale

Taurochole, Soteria, Krasis, Ixiochole, Haima. All these abilities are better options than to lose a GCD to Eukrasian Diagnosis to apply a barrier. Jeez, another kit that fights itself.

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Literally all they need to do is double the potency to 660 and suddenly, even though it's DPS neutral, you're still getting a heal and barrier out of that which is increasing healer DPS indirectly and thus ultimately something you want to prioritize. Would actually make a significant difference in Sage's playstyle that not only would help in giving veterans more skill expression, but also doesn't pressure casual play in any way.

Either that or make it an oGCD. So long as the damage gain is enough to offset the price of the GCD.

There's one minor change I think they could make to improve SGE. Eukrasia seemed interesting at first but ultimately it's just an ability for saving hotbar space, there's nothing really to it. Instead, what if it was a spender for Addersting stacks and would change or buff another ability. For example they could make Toxicon SGE's Ruin II equivalent but when it's buffed with Eukrasia it does more damage than Dosis. That on its own isn't a huge improvement but I think it would be a good base to build off of (I'm not creative enough to come up with other ideas for what else Eukrasia could modify :p)

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Originally Posted by baklava151

There's one minor change I think they could make to improve SGE. Eukrasia seemed interesting at first but ultimately it's just an ability for saving hotbar space, there's nothing really to it. Instead, what if it was a spender for Addersting stacks and would change or buff another ability. For example they could make Toxicon SGE's Ruin II equivalent but when it's buffed with Eukrasia it does more damage than Dosis. That on its own isn't a huge improvement but I think it would be a good base to build off of (I'm not creative enough to come up with other ideas for what else Eukrasia could modify :p)

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We don't really need to redesign Adder's Sting in order for it to flow though. Literally all we have to do is buff the potency to 660, and bam. It works. The DPS is the same as 2 casts of Dosis III, and you get a heal and barrier out of it.

I'd also be cool with separating Toxikon and Toxikon II into ST and AoE spenders. Change Toxikon II's potency to 340 with no drop off and use Toxikon I as a 660 potency single target action. It's a darn shame that animation is going to waste.

Yeah, I don't understand why Addersting is being granted on single-target shields. I don't think they understand just what SCHs are doing with their shields. The way Toxicon is right now, it feels like a Freecure trap. The most optimal way to use it is basically precast it on three party members before a pull to get a full charge, and then fish around for AoEs during downtime.

Just, if it was granted from Addersgall usage, I'd understand more, but, like, hello?

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

We don't really need to redesign Adder's Sting in order for it to flow though. Literally all we have to do is buff the potency to 660, and bam. It works. The DPS is the same as 2 casts of Dosis III, and you get a heal and barrier out of it.

I'd also be cool with separating Toxikon and Toxikon II into ST and AoE spenders. Change Toxikon II's potency to 340 with no drop off and use Toxikon I as a 660 potency single target action. It's a darn shame that animation is going to waste.

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Maybe have Eurkasia affect Toxicon to make it AoE? I dunno, just an idea.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

We don't really need to redesign Adder's Sting in order for it to flow though. Literally all we have to do is buff the potency to 660, and bam. It works. The DPS is the same as 2 casts of Dosis III, and you get a heal and barrier out of it.

I'd also be cool with separating Toxikon and Toxikon II into ST and AoE spenders. Change Toxikon II's potency to 340 with no drop off and use Toxikon I as a 660 potency single target action. It's a darn shame that animation is going to waste.

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I agree at the very least they should buff Toxicon, but I was more focused on Eukrasia in that post since it seems like wasted potential for an interesting skill. The Toxicon part just built off that

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

Literally all they need to do is double the potency to 660 and suddenly, even though it's DPS neutral, you're still getting a heal and barrier out of that which is increasing healer DPS indirectly and thus ultimately something you want to prioritize. Would actually make a significant difference in Sage's playstyle that not only would help in giving veterans more skill expression, but also doesn't pressure casual play in any way.

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I don't think it can be dps neutral, if so SGE would have basically free gcd shields (that can be buffed with zoe and etc) + free movement most of the fight. They should do it like ruin 2 is for sch a slight potency loss. Something like 580 potency (80 potency loss) so you can move, weave and have a nice shield but you can't spam it.

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Originally Posted by Sighearth

I don't think it can be dps neutral, if so SGE would have basically free gcd shields (that can be buffed with zoe and etc) + free movement most of the fight. They should do it like ruin 2 is for sch a slight potency loss. Something like 580 potency (80 potency loss) so you can move, weave and have a nice shield but you can't spam it.

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That's not entirely true because in order to get the sting in the first place, the barrier must break. The system was taken directly from the Dark Knight. To explain it briefly, DRK uses their MP on OGCD actions for added damage and maintaining a self DPS buff: Flood of Shadow and Edge of Shadow, both of which costs 3000 MP. They also have The Blackest Night, which is a single-target barrier they can place on themselves or an ally. Since it consumes 3000 MP as well, that means it's a DPS loss on its own, but if the barrier breaks, their next Flood of Shadow or Edge of Shadow is free. Since this is all OGCD, that makes The Blackest Night DPS neutral with a barrier as the cherry on top, but if you use it at the wrong time, the barrier wont' break before the buff timer runs out and you don't get that free FoS/EoS.

In other words, the system rewards well-timed barriers with a DPS return, and the same could be true for Toxikon. Keep in mind you also don't want to overwrite that barrier or you've lost your Adder's Sting before you've gained it, and I imagine Pepsis will also prevent you from gaining a Sting. Eukrasia Diagnosis is also MP expensive. This isn't a big issue now because SCH almost never actually casts Adloquium/Succor, but if you're trying to maximize uptime on barriers for that purpose, it could end up drying your MP up. We can't say this will or won't be a concern yet since we don't know how regularly you'll be able to realistically trigger a String, but it's worth keeping in mind.

Now, if we do make it DPS neutral, than that actually opens up a very important door for Sage gameplay in a way where everyone wins. It makes casual play more forgiving because even if you're not using your barriers optimally, you will at least gain some Stings to recoup your lost DPS (even if you don't care about that, it is still benefiting you). Meanwhile more experienced players are now actively looking for opportunities to use a GCD over DPSing which is exactly what so many people want since you have only to gain from a well-timed E. Diagnosis.

This kind of experience is literally what everyone wants, developers included. If they can recognize that and buff the damage, we'll be on a fantastic road forward.

Imagine healers being rewarded for healing. We are currently begging for healing skills to be dps neutral but that is kind sad really. Why can't our healing skills have interactions within the kits that make them dps positive? 4 Glare should not be better than Afflatus Healing and Misery. If healers are gonna prioritize healing GCD's (especially preemptive shields) it should have a direct link to better damage options.

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Originally Posted by NobleWinter

Imagine healers being rewarded for healing. We are currently begging for healing skills to be dps neutral but that is kind sad really. Why can't our healing skills have interactions within the kits that make them dps positive? 4 Glare should not be better than Afflatus Healing and Misery. If healers are gonna prioritize healing GCD's (especially preemptive shields) it should have a direct link to better damage options.

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It depends a bit on the situation. If we make DPS gained through healing DPS positive, then we run the risk of situations like Assize where the healing becomes a non-sequitur. It's more important to keep the CD moving than to save it for healing purposes. Afflatus Misery is probably the best example of a DPS action through healing that should be DPS positive. There's a bit of a risk in encouraging players to throw away their lilies, but since lilies are on a timer, you don't need to burn them as they arise and can afford to wait for the healing to be necessary. I think we could also just have more interesting interactions with lilies where we can nourish the blood lily at less of a loss or no loss with specific action order to gain rather than lose.

For Toxikon, I think it's important to keep it neutral rather than a gain. There's a bit of a joke that's not entirely a joke where you pretty much don't want E. Diagnosis to crit because that makes the barrier harder to break, and Toxikon being a gain would exacerbate the situation. It also means SGE's DPS gets worse the more you out gear a fight because you'll be pumping out larger shields that would take longer to break and thus your Toxikon generation would slow at higher ilvls.

Having it be neutral though does still encourage us to use barriers frequently since you're burning an extra 600 MP at intervals to heal and barrier an ally alongside your normal damage rather than just getting the damage, which even if you're only getting the barrier out of the deal, is still a minor gain indirectly than a direct Dosis III, not to mention the mobility factor.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

That's not entirely true because in order to get the sting in the first place, the barrier must break. The system was taken directly from the Dark Knight. To explain it briefly, DRK uses their MP on OGCD actions for added damage and maintaining a self DPS buff: Flood of Shadow and Edge of Shadow, both of which costs 3000 MP. They also have The Blackest Night, which is a single-target barrier they can place on themselves or an ally. Since it consumes 3000 MP as well, that means it's a DPS loss on its own, but if the barrier breaks, their next Flood of Shadow or Edge of Shadow is free. Since this is all OGCD, that makes The Blackest Night DPS neutral with a barrier as the cherry on top, but if you use it at the wrong time, the barrier wont' break before the buff timer runs out and you don't get that free FoS/EoS.

In other words, the system rewards well-timed barriers with a DPS return, and the same could be true for Toxikon. Keep in mind you also don't want to overwrite that barrier or you've lost your Adder's Sting before you've gained it, and I imagine Pepsis will also prevent you from gaining a Sting. Eukrasia Diagnosis is also MP expensive. This isn't a big issue now because SCH almost never actually casts Adloquium/Succor, but if you're trying to maximize uptime on barriers for that purpose, it could end up drying your MP up. We can't say this will or won't be a concern yet since we don't know how regularly you'll be able to realistically trigger a String, but it's worth keeping in mind.

Now, if we do make it DPS neutral, than that actually opens up a very important door for Sage gameplay in a way where everyone wins. It makes casual play more forgiving because even if you're not using your barriers optimally, you will at least gain some Stings to recoup your lost DPS (even if you don't care about that, it is still benefiting you). Meanwhile more experienced players are now actively looking for opportunities to use a GCD over DPSing which is exactly what so many people want since you have only to gain from a well-timed E. Diagnosis.

This kind of experience is literally what everyone wants, developers included. If they can recognize that and buff the damage, we'll be on a fantastic road forward.

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The most important thing you are forgetting is the duration of the shields, TBN is 7s duration while diagnosis is 30s. Not only that but TBN still have a cd. With a 30s duration with no cd, you don't need "well timed shields" at all, just keep shielding the mt for free sustain with no dps loss, 1 auto is enough to break a shield. That sustain would make tb/autos irrelevant. Also, free movement 100% of the time would make healers optimization boring. No risk vs reward, another healer depth removed, it would get old super fast. In the case of DRK the window is tight enough that is a risk of potency loss by using TBN but also the shield itself is huge, way harder to break than adlo/diagnosis. With dps neutral toxicon, we get TBN for babies with no risk + free movement + free sustain all for the price of nothing.

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Originally Posted by Sighearth

The most important thing you are forgetting is the duration of the shields, TBN is 7s duration while diagnosis is 30s. Not only that but TBN still have a cd. With a 30s duration with no cd, you don't need "well timed shields" at all, just keep shielding the mt for free sustain with no dps loss, 1 auto is enough to break a shield. That sustain would make tb/autos irrelevant. Also, free movement 100% of the time would make healers optimization boring. No risk vs reward, another healer depth removed, it would get old super fast. In the case of DRK the window is tight enough that is a risk of potency loss by using TBN but also the shield itself is huge, way harder to break than adlo/diagnosis. With dps neutral toxicon, we get TBN for babies with no risk + free movement + free sustain all for the price of nothing.

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You realize it's basically impossible to 100% sustain shields due to the mp cost? You learn that pretty quickly on SCH, and that's going to be true on SGE.

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Originally Posted by Sighearth

The most important thing you are forgetting is the duration of the shields, TBN is 7s duration while diagnosis is 30s. Not only that but TBN still have a cd. With a 30s duration with no cd, you don't need "well timed shields" at all, just keep shielding the mt for free sustain with no dps loss, 1 auto is enough to break a shield. That sustain would make tb/autos irrelevant. Also, free movement 100% of the time would make healers optimization boring. No risk vs reward, another healer depth removed, it would get old super fast. In the case of DRK the window is tight enough that is a risk of potency loss by using TBN but also the shield itself is huge, way harder to break than adlo/diagnosis. With dps neutral toxicon, we get TBN for babies with no risk + free movement + free sustain all for the price of nothing.

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Here's the problem. As others have pointed out (and I was corrected about), Toxikon is a DPS loss. Not neutral, a loss. You have no reason to use a GCD shield to fish for it as that would just result in you losing out on two dosis only to get back one dosis if the shield breaks. It's better to rely on your OGCDs instead and pretend the mechanic doesn't exist. That's not too good design now, is it? If they made it neutral you'd have a reason to go for it due to the movement, and in spite of what you're saying it wouldn't be constant movement since you'd still need to wait for the shield to break, as early refreshing and pepsis don't give you addersting. Plus if the shield never broke you'd still waste a GCD. The only time you'd use it with the current design would be if you ran out of OGCDs to use, and that's already an awful situation to be in.

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Originally Posted by Laphicet

Here's the problem. As others have pointed out (and I was corrected about), Toxikon is a DPS loss. Not neutral, a loss. You have no reason to use a GCD shield to fish for it as that would just result in you losing out on two dosis only to get back one dosis if the shield breaks. It's better to rely on your OGCDs instead and pretend the mechanic doesn't exist. That's not too good design now, is it? If they made it neutral you'd have a reason to go for it due to the movement, and in spite of what you're saying it wouldn't be constant movement since you'd still need to wait for the shield to break, as early refreshing and pepsis don't give you addersting. Plus if the shield never broke you'd still waste a GCD. The only time you'd use it with the current design would be if you ran out of OGCDs to use, and that's already an awful situation to be in.

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Actually he was arguing against the idea making Toxikon DPS neutral, not describing an existing "issue" with it. I brought up how making it neutral would make Sage's gameplay far more fluid and fun, and he fears that if they did make it neutral, it would make Sage's spam barrier on the tank.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

Actually he was arguing against the idea making Toxikon DPS neutral, not describing an existing "issue" with it. I brought up how making it neutral would make Sage's gameplay far more fluid and fun, and he fears that if they did make it neutral, it would make Sage's spam barrier on the tank.

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From what I can see, it is possible to make it dps neutral via pre-shielding, shielding during phase changes, etc. I do still agree that it should be 660 potency because seeing my GCD heals gather dust during a fight is not a good feeling. Increase the potency of just this one ability, and everything in Sage's kit comes together.

I just had an epiphany that the healers would feel SO much better to play if all their DPS abilities from GCD healing were DPS neutral, for example raising Afflatus Misery's potency to 930+. This is why I feel like, for Scholar, they should do something similar to also encourage them to GCD shield, mid-fight. That and maybe also nerf all the oGCDs on all the healers to further incentivize this new play style.

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Originally Posted by Iedarus

From what I can see, it is possible to make it dps neutral via pre-shielding, shielding during phase changes, etc. I do still agree that it should be 660 potency because seeing my GCD heals gather dust during a fight is not a good feeling. Increase the potency of just this one ability, and everything in Sage's kit comes together.

I just had an epiphany that the healers would feel SO much better to play if all their DPS abilities from GCD healing were DPS neutral, for example raising Afflatus Misery's potency to 930+. This is why I feel like, for Scholar, they should do something similar to also encourage them to GCD shield, mid-fight. That and maybe also nerf all the oGCDs on all the healers to further incentivize this new play style.

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Actually Afflatus Misery's Potency would need to be 1240 to be DPS neutral since it also consumes a GCD cast. Lily + Lily + Lily + AM = 900 (currently) while Glare + Glare + Glare + Glare = 1240 (As of EW)

I brought this up in a different thread, but Afflatus Misery could also stand to be a DPS gain rather than a loss. Because Lily generation is timed, you can only currently pump out Misery so often anyway, so you don't have this excess pressure to spam lilies like you might if spells like Pneuma or Macrocosmos were DPS gains. Much like Assize, you'd be pressured to use them on Cooldown rather than for their defensive utility which defeats the purpose. Imagine also if Cure 1 nourished the Blood Lily and Misery did something like 1300 potency. WHMs would literally be spamming Cure 1 instead of Glare because the net gain would be better, but since you can't do that with lilies, you can find the right moments to use them rather than burning them on-site.

I'd also want to experiment with keeping Misery at 900 potency, but also trying to include more ways to manipulate Blood Lily nourishment to gain DPS. One idea in a dead thread that came up was a Lily spell that nourished the blood lily, increased the potency of the next lily heal, and deal damage to enemies nearby the healed ally based on a percentage of HP overheal if not just a flat potency. Regardless of how it was implemented, if WHM had the ability to close the gap of that loss and turn that into a gain somehow with the way they healed and supported, you could keep WHM with a fairly shallow DPS action pool and still add a lot of depth with how experienced healers could interact with the kit in order to maximize Misery's DPS potential, and I feel like that would ultimately be a win-win. It keeps the job simple with a baseline level of forgiveness while allowing experts to push the kit further.

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Originally Posted by Iedarus

From what I can see, it is possible to make it dps neutral via pre-shielding, shielding during phase changes, etc. I do still agree that it should be 660 potency because seeing my GCD heals gather dust during a fight is not a good feeling. Increase the potency of just this one ability, and everything in Sage's kit comes together.

I just had an epiphany that the healers would feel SO much better to play if all their DPS abilities from GCD healing were DPS neutral, for example raising Afflatus Misery's potency to 930+. This is why I feel like, for Scholar, they should do something similar to also encourage them to GCD shield, mid-fight. That and maybe also nerf all the oGCDs on all the healers to further incentivize this new play style.

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I don't think SCH's mechanics really allow that since SCH's identity lies more in oGCDs than GCDs, unless they decide to have shield breaks feed the fairy gauge instead of Aetherflow usage. But, the fairy gauge doesn't provide any DPS directly. It's just more healing.

However, if we're talking about SCH's mechanics and DPS, right now, using Aetherflow healing causes a DPS loss since that's one less stack for Energy Drain. This also affects their MP generation. If using Aetherflow healing was like how TBN worked, i.e. TBN breaks, get a free use of Edge/Flood of Darkness/Shadow, then SCH would have one of their core problems fixed.

It still suffers in other areas, but at least I won't feel like shit for using my stacks as the developers want me to.

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Originally Posted by inhaledcorn

You realize it's basically impossible to 100% sustain shields due to the mp cost? You learn that pretty quickly on SCH, and that's going to be true on SGE.

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Yea realistically you won't have 100% uptime shields ofc. But you only need 3 at the time, as toxicon 2 have 0 mana cost, your shields would cost 1000 - 400 (dosis cost) so to spam shields you would be down 200 mana for every shield.

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Originally Posted by Laphicet

Here's the problem. As others have pointed out (and I was corrected about), Toxikon is a DPS loss. Not neutral, a loss. You have no reason to use a GCD shield to fish for it as that would just result in you losing out on two dosis only to get back one dosis if the shield breaks. It's better to rely on your OGCDs instead and pretend the mechanic doesn't exist. That's not too good design now, is it? If they made it neutral you'd have a reason to go for it due to the movement, and in spite of what you're saying it wouldn't be constant movement since you'd still need to wait for the shield to break, as early refreshing and pepsis don't give you addersting. Plus if the shield never broke you'd still waste a GCD. The only time you'd use it with the current design would be if you ran out of OGCDs to use, and that's already an awful situation to be in.

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Yea my point was that toxicon MUST be a dps loss. Not an entire dosis of a loss but something akin to the difference between a ruin2 to a broil. So it should have around 580 potency so 80 potency loss. 330 potency loss is way too high and how it is now its basically a pre pull/downtime mechanic

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Originally Posted by Sighearth

Yea my point was that toxicon MUST be a dps loss. Not an entire dosis of a loss but something akin to the difference between a ruin2 to a broil. So it should have around 580 potency so 80 potency loss. 330 potency loss is way too high and how it is now its basically a pre pull/downtime mechanic

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"Toxicon MUST be a DPS lost or else SGE might want to actually use a core function of their kit."

... Hello?

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Originally Posted by inhaledcorn

"Toxicon MUST be a DPS lost or else SGE might want to actually use a core function of their kit."

... Hello?

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I guess it not worth even try to explain if that is your point. Why don't we make every healing gcd gives a resource that does a ton of damage so you can just heal freely and dps freely so you can massively reward overhealing and 0 optimization or planning? If you think spam shields/regens brainless and having no cut in efficiency is fulfilling a core function then I'm glad the devs are diverting from you view of a core function.

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Originally Posted by inhaledcorn

I don't think SCH's mechanics really allow that since SCH's identity lies more in oGCDs than GCDs, unless they decide to have shield breaks feed the fairy gauge instead of Aetherflow usage. But, the fairy gauge doesn't provide any DPS directly. It's just more healing.

However, if we're talking about SCH's mechanics and DPS, right now, using Aetherflow healing causes a DPS loss since that's one less stack for Energy Drain. This also affects their MP generation. If using Aetherflow healing was like how TBN worked, i.e. TBN breaks, get a free use of Edge/Flood of Darkness/Shadow, then SCH would have one of their core problems fixed.

It still suffers in other areas, but at least I won't feel like shit for using my stacks as the developers want me to.

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Of course they'd still have their oGCDs but they'd have a reason to supplement those with their GCDs. The Fae Gauge just needs an overhaul. Quite frankly, since Scholar's true identity comes from their stratagems and tactics, I kinda wish they would just take focus away from the fairy and create a new meter which would allow for the usage of said new, powerful tactics/stratagems. The summoning of aetheric beings is Summoner's thing, anyway, and if the devs really want to separate the two, this is one way to do it.

Well the problem there lies in the fact that a damage ability uses the same resource as healing. Sage doesn't have this issue which is why it looks so much better to play. I feel like they should just replace energy drain with a GCD damage ability that procs off shield breaks, or something, that doesn't consume aetherflow, while figuring out another way to not have aetherflow overlap.

Edit: Wait, I got it: What if dissipation was reworked so that you eat your remaining stacks to fill the fairy gauge or augment something else?

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

Literally all they need to do is double the potency to 660 and suddenly, even though it's DPS neutral, you're still getting a heal and barrier out of that which is increasing healer DPS indirectly and thus ultimately something you want to prioritize. Would actually make a significant difference in Sage's playstyle that not only would help in giving veterans more skill expression, but also doesn't pressure casual play in any way.

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Sounds like a problem another healer job has……. I don’t think they gonna buff it. They never did for whm.

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Originally Posted by Iedarus

Well the problem there lies in the fact that a damage ability uses the same resource as healing. Sage doesn't have this issue which is why it looks so much better to play. I feel like they should just replace energy drain with a GCD damage ability that procs off shield breaks, or something, that doesn't consume aetherflow, while figuring out another way to not have aetherflow overlap.

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SCH functionally breaks without a way to dump Aetherflow stacks as we found out at the beginning of ShB. Fey Union directly feeds off of Aetherflow usage. Dissipation generates extra Aetherflow stacks. Without Energy Drain or healing demands that require that much Aetherflow usage, SCH does not work. I know because I was there.

Aetherflow is SCH's core mechanic and also its core issue. With SGE having a similar mechanic, I'd rather SCH get reworked to have something else.

I think a good way to "fix" toxicon would be the following:

1st: Increase its potency to be more powerful than dosis, not too much so at 2 targets it doesn't become better than using dykrasia twice (so our aoe rotation doesn't become shield->toxicon) but enough to be dps neutral at that point so around 450-455 potency with 50% falloff

2nd: Make Phelgma and Rizomata give addersting. Phelgma to incentivize its use even more and give the job a bigger flavour of dps healer and because its a skill introduced very early meaning it could be upgraded in a natural way as soon as toxicon is unlocked and rizomata to be able to be comparable with recitation as giving only addersgall makes it feel kinda flat.

3rd (maybe): Give a trait that for X amount of Addersgall generated it creates one addersting. However this would require us to not be able to generate Addersgall out of combat as it may cause long pull countdowns and it may potentially give too many free toxicons

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Originally Posted by inhaledcorn

SCH functionally breaks without a way to dump Aetherflow stacks as we found out at the beginning of ShB. Fey Union directly feeds off of Aetherflow usage. Dissipation generates extra Aetherflow stacks. Without Energy Drain or healing demands that require that much Aetherflow usage, SCH does not work. I know because I was there.

Aetherflow is SCH's core mechanic and also its core issue. With SGE having a similar mechanic, I'd rather SCH get reworked to have something else.

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That's what I was saying. There needs to be another way to dump unneeded stacks.

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Originally Posted by WaxSw

I think a good way to "fix" toxicon would be the following:

1st: Increase its potency to be more powerful than dosis, not too much so at 2 targets it doesn't become better than using dykrasia twice (so our aoe rotation doesn't become shield->toxicon) but enough to be dps neutral at that point so around 450-455 potency with 50% falloff

2nd: Make Phelgma and Rizomata give addersting. Phelgma to incentivize its use even more and give the job a bigger flavour of dps healer and because its a skill introduced very early meaning it could be upgraded in a natural way as soon as toxicon is unlocked and rizomata to be able to be comparable with recitation as giving only addersgall makes it feel kinda flat.

3rd (maybe): Give a trait that for X amount of Addersgall generated it creates one addersting. However this would require us to not be able to generate Addersgall out of combat as it may cause long pull countdowns and it may potentially give too many free toxicons

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I think what they should have done, now that I've seen other peoples' thoughts, was make Toxicon I and II separate abilities and make Toxicon I have 660 potency for single target, only, and Toxicon II be a 340 potency AoE with no drop off. On top of that, both of those abilities should cost 600 mana. That way, you would be ensured to remain DPS neutral by being able to use GCDs without losing potency while not being able to just spam shields and Toxicon and have a net gain with trash mobs.

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Originally Posted by Iedarus

On top of that, both of those abilities should cost 600 mana. That way, you would be ensured to remain DPS neutral by being able to use GCDs without losing potency while not being able to just spam shields and Toxicon and have a net gain with trash mobs.

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Toxicon should absolutely not cost any MP. Sage already has the second worst MP economy of the healers, and using eukrasian diagnosis costs 600 more mp than dosis or dyskrasia. Even at 0 MP E. Diagnosis + Toxicon use more MP than what two Dosis would've used.

Personally i think just making toxicon ogcd solves almost all of its issues, but i suppose it staying a gcd alleviates the MP cost of getting an addersting stack a little bit.

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Originally Posted by QooEr

Toxicon should absolutely not cost any MP. Sage already has the second worst MP economy of the healers, and using eukrasian diagnosis costs 600 more mp than dosis or dyskrasia. Even at 0 MP E. Diagnosis + Toxicon use more MP than what two Dosis would've used.

Personally i think just making toxicon ogcd solves almost all of its issues, but i suppose it staying a gcd alleviates the MP cost of getting an addersting stack a little bit.

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I' personally prefer it get a potency buff to 660 and stay on the GCD since that gives a bit more divergence from Dosis spam, but that's a very close 2nd place alternative for me.