Beyblade bosses need to stop

Just make them not turn around whenever they cast targeted abilities, simple, right?

True north doesn't help because the boss moves as soon as the cast begins, rather than when the cast ends, and it's really frustrating.

Us melee already have enough stress dealing with mechanics and spinning tanks, don't make it any worse, please.

Calling it now: Positionals have been removed in Endwalker because they're causing melee players too much stress.

Be careful what you wish for.

I kind of miss having to move bosses around as a tank xD move them out of AoEs (or right in them) so DPS have free real estate for big boi damage.

To be fair, outside of EX and Savage it's just not that big a deal if you miss positionals. It really doesn't matter if the boss turns occasionally. You're losing sub 1% damage.

Sometimes this community confuses me. On one hand, many players are adamant that meters are evil, Ice Mages are fine, dps doesn't matter outside of Savage, food and materia aren't really necessary ...then on the other hand they flip out over a lost positional, the tank moving a mob out of Doton, the tank pulling 3 packs instead of 4, someone using macro for an ability in combat, having to throw out a single Verraise and so on, things that barely affect their dps by a few percent in content where damage doesn't even matter.

This doesn't seem like an actual issue to me ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Calling it now: Positionals have been removed in Endwalker because they're causing melee players too much stress.

Be careful what you wish for.

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The average player is already too lazy to hit positionals so... I won't be surprised if it does happen.

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Originally Posted by Kalaam

I kind of miss having to move bosses around as a tank xD move them out of AoEs (or right in them) so DPS have free real estate for big boi damage.

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Thing is we've got so many crap tanks these days that will just have the nose of a boss sticking out of an AOE, while leaving the rear and flanks in the fire, that I'm not mad if bosses move themselves out of it.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Calling it now: Positionals have been removed in Endwalker because they're causing melee players too much stress.

Be careful what you wish for.

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Coming 7.0 they remove cast times and all spells are instant.

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Originally Posted by Marc-Vigar

Just make them not turn around whenever they cast targeted abilities, simple, right?

True north doesn't help because the boss moves as soon as the cast begins, rather than when the cast ends, and it's really frustrating.

Us melee already have enough stress dealing with mechanics and spinning tanks, don't make it any worse, please.

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"It's too hard for me to use True North which has two stacks"?

Dancing with the AoEs is part of the fun, and dancing with the boss positioning is another.

It's not very interesting to casualize it because it's boring positioning.

If the tank is not able to tank the boss without keeping him in place between each mech, then the tank has to learn how to play, and understand that the more he keeps the boss still outside of the boss mechs the more the Dps can do their job.

A good tank will make sure to follow the boss, because it's him (the boss) who decides where he stands and the tank has to immobilize him as soon as possible so that the melee dps can do their job. If the boss is constantly going back and forth, the tank is doing shit.

Communicate with your group or change group, instead of saying: Please fix it...

I think it's part of the fun, this famous "Dps stress".

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Calling it now: Positionals have been removed in Endwalker because they're causing melee players too much stress.

Be careful what you wish for.

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Ehhh no, I never said that positionals need to be removed, what I said is that the bosses randomly spinning without any warning is frustrating. I wouldn't mind them being removed though.

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Originally Posted by Naoki34

"It's too hard for me to use True North which has two stacks"?

Dancing with the AoEs is part of the fun, and dancing with the boss positioning is another.

It's not very interesting to casualize it because it's boring positioning.

If the tank is not able to tank the boss without keeping him in place between each mech, then the tank has to learn how to play, and understand that the more he keeps the boss still outside of the boss mechs the more the Dps can do their job.

A good tank will make sure to follow the boss, because it's him (the boss) who decides where he stands and the tank has to immobilize him as soon as possible so that the melee dps can do their job. If the boss is constantly going back and forth, the tank is doing shit.

Communicate with your group or change group, instead of saying: Please fix it...

I think it's part of the fun, this famous "Dps stress".

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If you're gonna quote, have some decency and do it correctly, I never said that using True North is too hard for me. What I said is that TN is useless when the boss begins a targeted cast because literally you have no reaction time to activate it before missing the positional.

Quick reminder, this thread isn't about tanks, it's about bosses.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

To be fair, outside of EX and Savage it's just not that big a deal if you miss positionals. It really doesn't matter if the boss turns occasionally. You're losing sub 1% damage.

Sometimes this community confuses me. On one hand, many players are adamant that meters are evil, Ice Mages are fine, dps doesn't matter outside of Savage, food and materia aren't really necessary ...then on the other hand they flip out over a lost positional, the tank moving a mob out of Doton, the tank pulling 3 packs instead of 4, someone using macro for an ability in combat, having to throw out a single Verraise and so on, things that barely affect their dps by a few percent in content where damage doesn't even matter.

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It's not about the damage, it's about the feeling of frustration because you are failing at the core gameplay of your job and you can't do anything about it due to bad design.

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Originally Posted by wereotter

Thing is we've got so many crap tanks these days that will just have the nose of a boss sticking out of an AOE, while leaving the rear and flanks in the fire, that I'm not mad if bosses move themselves out of it.

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Yeah but then it drags everything to being simplistic.

Yeah there is a lot of not good tanks, but if you don't give them anything to do or to learn they will never improve.

That bosses get in specific positions for some mechanics is fine, but it's not needed for all.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Calling it now: Positionals have been removed in Endwalker because they're causing melee players too much stress.

Be careful what you wish for.

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We, ranged, asked for removal of casts.
Look at us now.

As for the main topic, positionnals are not important for normal gameplay. The DPS gain is laughable and only serves as min-maxing.
It was already discussed but it's better to have a constant uptime rather than all your positionnals.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

We, ranged, asked for removal of casts.
As for the main topic, positionnals are not important for normal gameplay. The DPS gain is laughable and only serves as min-maxing.
It was already discussed but it's better to have a constant uptime rather than all your positionnals.

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copy paste from my last response:

"It's not about the damage, it's about the feeling of frustration because you are failing at the core gameplay of your job and you can't do anything about it due to bad design."

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Calling it now: Positionals have been removed in Endwalker because they're causing melee players too much stress.

Be careful what you wish for.

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This is cursed.

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Originally Posted by VentVanitas

The average player is already too lazy to hit positionals so... I won't be surprised if it does happen.

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as someone that always mains melee, i hope this is the case, i hate getting chewed out for not pre-stacking 15 seconds before a mechanic. I'm tired of rotations that force us to run laps around a 40 foot wide hit box, I'm tired of pug groups where the boss is only 1/4th out of the aoe circle on the ground so i have to step in to hit my positional...

life is stressful enough on the front-line and we already have to run the furthest for safety, i think it would be in the best interest of most classes to get rid of positionals

Never have I ever wished for TP to be back after the removal of it, and when playing jobs that don't have positionals or playing in places where positionals are not present I don't wish for them to be there. The don't add anything to the gameplay and if they are so negligible as to not be important in 90% of the content as people in this thread have said then in all honesty they don't really need to exist in the 1st place. Most Savage and Ultimate fights I've seen on Youtube and streams the melee try to move as little as possible anyway and only really move when a mechanic is happening. So if they removed them in Endwalker I wouldn't be the lest be saddened by it.

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Originally Posted by Marc-Vigar

copy paste from my last response:

"It's not about the damage, it's about the feeling of frustration because you are failing at the core gameplay of your job and you can't do anything about it due to bad design."

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copy paste from my last response:

"We, ranged, asked for removal of casts.
Look at us now."

I'll explain for you:
Casts felt like a bad design, it was removed and surprise a job felt completely empty after that.
Positionnals will make jobs playing like others. Imagine MNK with no positionnals?

If you can't make your positionnals because a boss turns around, it's your tank fault, sure.
If you're frustrated in dungeon because of missing a positionnal, it's not your tank fault it's yours.

Either you chill out and stop thinking about optimizing something as trivial as a dungeon or you can keep getting mad.

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Originally Posted by AvenoMatt

Coming 7.0 they remove cast times and all spells are instant.

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First good buff for whm since ages then

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Originally Posted by Kalaam

Yeah but then it drags everything to being simplistic.

Yeah there is a lot of not good tanks, but if you don't give them anything to do or to learn they will never improve.

That bosses get in specific positions for some mechanics is fine, but it's not needed for all.

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I agree that tanks should be better... but many aren't.

And to that end I can usually tell who's a tank that's never played a melee job and who's a tank that has before I even look at the character data just based off where they hold enemies. I remind tanks to pull the enemy's butt out of the bad when I can, but sometimes you just get so tired of reminding them that melee roles need to hit from specific sides. This isn't something I should be needing to tell a level 80 player.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

If you can't make your positionnals because a boss turns around, it's your tank fault, sure.
If you're frustrated in dungeon because of missing a positionnal, it's not your tank fault it's yours.

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You've got this backwards. If I miss a positional because the boss turns to do a mechanic, that's no one's fault except the developer.
If I miss a positional in a dungeon because the tank is holding the enemy with just it's face poking out of a fire circle, and it's rear and flank are in the bad, that's the tank's fault.

Or you could learn the boss' mechanics and know that it'll turn around for one mechanic.

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Originally Posted by wereotter

If I miss a positional in a dungeon because the tank is holding the enemy with just it's face poking out of a fire circle, and it's rear and flank are in the bad, that's the tank's fault.

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Tell that to the multitude of DPS that will chew a tank out for daring to move the boss an inch. I wouldn't dare attempt to count the times I or other tanks have had to deal with someone baby raging because we thought they might like to be able to access a given boss's rear and flank without being set on fire. This is why so many tanks elect to move enemies the bare minimum distance.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

Tell that to the multitude of DPS that will chew a tank out for daring to move the boss an inch. I wouldn't dare attempt to count the times I or other tanks have had to deal with someone baby raging because we thought they might like to be able to access a given boss's rear and flank without being set on fire. This is why so many tanks elect to move enemies the bare minimum distance.

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Then I, as the healer, will tell them that dead DPS do no DPS, and they can stay dead for forcing the party to lose DPS by making me hardcast heals. If the tank can't move to dodge damage and reposition cause DPS complains "but muh DPS uptime", then the DPS tax goes to the healer in the end anyway. Overall, the party's outgoing damage remains unchanged.

Tank turned the boss around is one thing but if the Tank didn't move and you still complain then MNK isn't a job for you.
The old veteran MNKs ain't only just know when to move but they also can predict the moment before the boss is gonna turn around.
There are tons of indicators for MNKs to use , For example:
Knowing the abilities that the boss used, so you know that its gonna turn or not.
Aligned yourself with Main Tank so when the Tank move ccw you move ccw as well.
You need to know where Off Tank is as well, especially, just before when tanks swapped happen, so you don't miss the positional.

Raid awareness is very important for MNK, the old MNK need to do the rotations, positonal and the fight's mechanics at the same time while keeping GL up the whole fight.But now with GL gone, MNKs have a lot of awareness to spare than before.
So if you still complain after I said this much then I have nothing else to say except "Nice excuses you've got there".

I mean yeah, it's a team game, we are supposed to work as a team.
It makes sense that (especially in harder content) a lack of synch would result in a loss of damage overall.

But hot damn don't make tanks just static poles stuck in the ground just pressing mitigation buttons from time to time

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

Tell that to the multitude of DPS that will chew a tank out for daring to move the boss an inch. I wouldn't dare attempt to count the times I or other tanks have had to deal with someone baby raging because we thought they might like to be able to access a given boss's rear and flank without being set on fire. This is why so many tanks elect to move enemies the bare minimum distance.

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I've never once chewed out a tank for pulling an enemy out of a ground AOE, I don't want to stand in it any more than my healer wants to stand in it. If the tank has to move the boss anyway, they should move it in such a way that DPS can still do their job. If they're doing it properly, and some DPS gets angry that they moved the boss too far, tell that bard to move in and adjust. (I'm assuming it must be some ranged job, since melee would never complain if a tank pulls a boss out of an AOE entirely)

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Calling it now: Positionals have been removed in Endwalker because they're causing melee players too much stress.

Be careful what you wish for.

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This is something I would literally jump for joy over. Outdated mechanic that adds arbitrary work to classes. Not needed and definitely can go. Engagement can be found in multiple other ways, especially because in general, the class design in this game is good already, if anything positionals make them all worse, especially monk.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

copy paste from my last response:

"We, ranged, asked for removal of casts.
Look at us now."

I'll explain for you:
Casts felt like a bad design, it was removed and surprise a job felt completely empty after that.
Positionnals will make jobs playing like others. Imagine MNK with no positionnals?

If you can't make your positionnals because a boss turns around, it's your tank fault, sure.
If you're frustrated in dungeon because of missing a positionnal, it's not your tank fault it's yours.

Either you chill out and stop thinking about optimizing something as trivial as a dungeon or you can keep getting mad.

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The thing is, as someone else mentioned in this thread, most of us don't notice them not being there when they are not required. Like some boss fights or Bozja type conent. This is more so true to the majority of the player base than the minority. They really aren't as important as some players think, if anything they are a burden on the player, and it's not fun if some tank is constantly moving the boss around. It is never ok to say "Its ok, just take the dps loss, because in savage tanks keep them in one position". That just sounds like an excuse for outdated and (tbh) bad design.

Do not be under any dellusion that hitting positionals make you skillful, they do not. Many players that don't like them, can hit all their positionals just fine. It is the annoyance of having to do it all the time, or feel frustrated when you miss them because of someone else why many want them gone, and won't miss them either.

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Originally Posted by Navnav

The thing is, as someone else mentioned in this thread, most of us don't notice them not being there when they are not required. Like some boss fights or Bozja type conent. This is more so true to the majority of the player base than the minority. They really aren't as important as some players think, if anything they are a burden on the player, and it's not fun if some tank is constantly moving the boss around. It is never ok to say "Its ok, just take the dps loss, because in savage tanks keep them in one position". That just sounds like an excuse for outdated and (tbh) bad design.

Do not be under any dellusion that hitting positionals make you skillful, they do not. Many players that don't like them, can hit all their positionals just fine. It is the annoyance of having to do it all the time, or feel frustrated when you miss them because of someone else why many want them gone, and won't miss them either.

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I mean, if hitting the correct button at the correct time, not just rotationally but also by using fight knowledge, isn't skillful... then what IS skillful?

I think the issue people have with positionals would actually completely vanish if they were made MORE impactful. Like what this guy said, they don't matter much -- and that's the problem.

You know the fight. You know your team. You know your core gameplay. You know when you need to move to hit a positional. You're literally pressing buttons to do more DPS. There is no more pure of a form of gameplay than to know what to do, then do it, then be rewarded for doing it correctly. The problem is the reward feels too small and there's too many ways to nullify the need for it. These are more recent issues. Going back to ARR, skills would do only about 60% of their damage if you whiffed a positional; and some jobs could miss applying important buffs and debuffs as well. This made hitting the positional important. Moving to the side or rear of a mob was just as much of a DPS boost, if not potentially moreso, than pushing another button. There was no fancy graphic or sound effect though, and perhaps that's an issue that can be addressed. Make whiffing a positional have a wimpy sound effect, like a dull thud compared to the glorious smashing sound of landing one. Add some hitsparks or something if you do it right, and nothing if you do it wrong.

And as of the last expansion, really think about it -- how many bosses actually spin unpredictably on their own, and how often do they do it?

I would gladly support positionals being removed from the game if it meant that tanks were allowed to position bosses again. These railshooter fights are just not fun to tank.

I don't think the problem lies with the bosses, the tanks positioning the bosses or the positionals themselves.

I think the problem is that people don't want boss fights to be difficult and have to think about how the boss will change it's positioning based on what attacks it can use and manage their uses of positional removals (aka True North) accordingly.

But people will always complain, because it's far easier to give up and complain than to improve your own gameplay.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Calling it now: Positionals have been removed in Endwalker because they're causing melee players too much stress.

Be careful what you wish for.

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Well they removed Accuracy requirements and removed Parry. If they remove positionals it just makes everyone's lives easier. As it stands...Tanks, Healers, Casters, ranged attackers don't have positionals to hit.

True North always felt like a band-aid for melee due to the way boss encounter design is.

On the other hand it opens the gates for lower skill level and makes certain jobs more boring because of the lack of them.

God forbid a Melee has to work to earn his damage, right?

I mean, a Caster needs to know every single safe spot in the fight to know when he's allowed to move, a Ranged DPS gets Support DPS numbers for not having to do that. Even Healers have to do a bit of Turret Fighting to increase their DPS or time heals.

But you want Melees to play like Tanks? Tanks get to play that way because they need to deal with Mitigations and boss positioning. Melee DPS gets to deal with positionals.

Bosses already have the largests of hitboxes and most mechanics puts you in Melee Range, you remove positionals and you'll just be nerfed to hell along with the Aiming classes.

Only class I've seen that requires heavy positional focus is Monk. Which I very much prefer the PvP system for Monk over the PvE system. Samurai only has 2 for building gauge and Dragoon generally only swaps position for WT/FC and Chaos Thrust. Positionals may as well be deleted at this point. And Ninja only has 3. Trick, Armor Crush, Aeo Edge. 2 of which are rear only.

If homogenization is the end goal may as well scrap it like they did with Parry.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

Only class I've seen that requires heavy positional focus is Monk. [...] Samurai only has 2 for building gauge and Dragoon generally only swaps position for WT/FC and Chaos Thrust. Positionals may as well be deleted at this point. And Ninja only has 3. Trick, Armor Crush, Aeo Edge. 2 of which are rear only.

If homogenization is the end goal may as well scrap it like they did with Parry.

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Did These jobs used to have more positionals?
How many more did they used to have?

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Originally Posted by ItMe

Did These jobs used to have more positionals?
How many more did they used to have?

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Pretty sure Dragoon used to have a positional on Full Thrust and not just Chaos Thrust. Think they changed it since a majority of Dragoon just flatout ignored positionals and weren't punished as much as Monks were. Monks hitting all their positionals meant high personal DPS which they took a hit on if they missed them contributing to a much lower DPS.

Chaos Thrust puts you into position for it's 4th hit in the combo and you switch on the 5th.

Ninjas only really had 2 they needed to hit and were primarily used for Trick Attack for the damage window.

Samurai as is only needs to hit 2 for the guage gain since the gauge translates into DPS for their skills.

I feel like over time with each expansion the need to care about positionals is ever so slowly dissipating.

It's about making you dodge, and move, all while maintaining an optimal output. How you do that is a measure of your skill, not closing your eyes and regurgitating a rotation you've committed to memory, anyone can do that..

Dragoon used to have positionals on Heavy Thrust (side) as well as the entire chaos thrust combo (rear), and if you missed the positional you didn't get the buff (heavy thrust gave a damage buff), didn't apply debuffs (piercing resist down from disembowel and dot from chaos thrust), and if you broke positional on say, disembowel or impulse drive, your combo chain was broken.