How is monk after the rework?

I haven't touched it since Stormblood when everything fell apart. I heard the last patch had a rework. How is it now?

Just think of it as the skeleton for a future rework, nothing more

Thank you! I'll wait until Endwalker then. I want to love MNK again, it was the second class I ever learned, after paladin.

Endwalker is going to be quite interesting, not only for MNK, But for Healing Jobs and SMN as well, we can only hope that things change for the better for once.

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Originally Posted by Bhearil

Just think of it as the skeleton for a future rework, nothing more

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I think it's quite funny that despite this being obvious (if not outright said in some interview or another), there are a lot of players losing to the fact that MNK got watered down to nada.

GL was a system that didn't age well, and would probably mean a brickwall at some point, for that I'm glad it's gone for a new kind of mechanic that is bound to be inserted in EW!

Really hope thats the case. In my case I really hope their phase of "make everything accesible" is over and start adding flavour to the jobs instead of more homogeneization

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Originally Posted by Bhearil

Really hope thats the case. In my case I really hope their phase of "make everything accesible" is over and start adding flavour to the jobs instead of more homogeneization

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With Monks, probably... But then, several other jobs are going to hit brickwalls at some point.

The nature of XIV's progression system will lead to that sooner or later... let it be job mechanics that are a liability for a job's growth, or the number of rotational abilities getting to a certain point where there's too many buttons. I suppose Black Mage is a job that is somewhat getting closer to that brickwall. It functions extremely well right now... but where that job can go to without damaging what it's already in place? How Monk was before this rework was more or less what would happen.

In short, in this kind of progression model, a rework will always be needed at some point, even if the job works well.

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Originally Posted by Raikai

With Monks, probably... But then, several other jobs are going to hit brickwalls at some point.

The nature of XIV's progression system will lead to that sooner or later... let it be job mechanics that are a liability for a job's growth, or the number of rotational abilities getting to a certain point where there's too many buttons. I suppose Black Mage is a job that is somewhat getting closer to that brickwall. It functions extremely well right now... but where that job can go to without damaging what it's already in place? How Monk was before this rework was more or less what would happen.

In short, in this kind of progression model, a rework will always be needed at some point, even if the job works well.

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A lot of jobs are approaching this, actually. They already admitted that summoner is at its brick wall right now too. But unlike monk, to bring it back to the topic, it isn't currently well beyond it's wall like monk was. I used to love monk... but after it got gutted, it's just kind of dull to play. Had to put it on the shelf until next expansion.

I'd argue it introduced more problems to the job rather than solving any. oGCD drift for one thing, is a major problem on MNK right now due to how many buttons you have to press in your burst. While not exclusive to 5.4 MNK obviously, it has become more prominent now with the Brotherhood/Chakra change, as well as the Riddle of Earth change as a minor contributor.

The rework only emphasized what was wrong with Chakra now that it is more easily attainable as a resource. The aforementioned oGCD drift that will set back skills like Elixir Field and Tornado Kick in the case of you getting too much Chakra, because since there is no overhang with the stupid gauge you'll always have to prioritize popping it as soon as you get it. (Riddle of Earth also causes this due to its very short duration)

Anatman, while admittedly very situational at the time, still had a clear purpose prior to 5.4. I can't say the same for it now, freezing the Twin Snakes or form combo timer is not at all a useful thing to have because we already have a skill that essentially lets us reset Twin Snakes whenever we want, Form Shift.

Tornado Kick was basically turned into Steel Peak, which is another example of SE doing its "remove a skill then add it later again" shtick. Though the problem with TK being an oGCD is that it's animation is far too long to be what it is, it would be better off as a Xenoglossy type skill.

Six Sided Star only got a speed boost added upon use which emphasizes its role as the disconnect skill, but is still otherwise the exact same clunky tool that prevents us from using our other disconnect options. Still a lame capstone move that should be available at a far earlier level.

Leaden Bootshine is still too polarizing, while this was a problem with ShB MNK in general, not just 5.4, it is a lot more noticeable now since it is pretty much all you are doing on the job now. When we have so many Weaponskills at our disposal, all of our damage shouldn't hinge on a frigging skill we get at level 1.

Oh, and for whatever reason the fist stances are still there, wasting up hotbar space.

tl;dr MNK plays exactly the same, but without Greased Lightning and more frequent Chakra.

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Originally Posted by Raikai

I think it's quite funny that despite this being obvious (if not outright said in some interview or another), there are a lot of players losing to the fact that MNK got watered down to nada.

GL was a system that didn't age well, and would probably mean a brickwall at some point, for that I'm glad it's gone for a new kind of mechanic that is bound to be inserted in EW!

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A lot of us old Monk players are super jaded. I appreciate the optimism, and it's entirely possible Monk will get some cool, badass feature in EW that makes then super interesting and fun but... well like I've said before, if SE knew how to do that they woulda done it when Monk stagnated hard going into Stormblood.

I mean, Monk was gutted going into Shadowbringers and are you really going to sit there and say that was all just setup for the next expansion? What if EW monk sucks too, is that acceptable because obviously that's just setup for the NEXT NEXT expansion after? Is there some point we can say, hey, no, let's not make a framework for something good and let's actually make it good?

Just answering OP:

It's super boring. There's almost nothing to manage. You don't get to see Tornado Kick's animation because it's too long. Perfect Balance got reinvented into what it'd been driven towards with the addition of Leaden Fist(as shown with DRG's Raiden Thrust, they could have had Bootshine transform into this when conditions are met... ugh).

All in all, it was more fun to play prior to the rework, but supposedly it's what Bhearil said, and they've scorched the earth so they may begin again, make something "new" out of what remains.

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Originally Posted by Powercow

I mean, Monk was gutted going into Shadowbringers and are you really going to sit there and say that was all just setup for the next expansion?

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For all that matters, they could've left Monk untouched and do everything all at once in EW, both the gutting and the renewal. I suspect they experimented with the gutting mid-xpac to test the grounds or something? I don't know. To me Monk before was insufferable because of GL and all the other issues and after the gut is insufferable because of how bland it is, so to me personally it wouldn't matter a lot.

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Originally Posted by Powercow

What if EW monk sucks too, is that acceptable because obviously that's just setup for the NEXT NEXT expansion after? Is there some point we can say, hey, no, let's not make a framework for something good and let's actually make it good?

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That's the risk with any expansion. The progression system that XIV lives on with cumulative additions as the level tiers go up can mean anything to any job... Something that works beautifully nowadays like BLM can break just by the addition of 1 new spell or 1 new mechanic. Or the new "remake" might not personally please you, despite being well made... Or the worst case scenario is that they'll just fail and try again in 7.0.

It's boring.

Thank you.. I keep hoping that monk will see the same kind of attention like machinist did... I mean it was a class with such cool potential but so many shoehorned abilities and managing everything in the wildfire window wasn't fun at all. Now, machinist is much better and actually fun to me although there are definitely areas where it could get some love, too. An overhaul like that takes time...I get it, so I'm kinda holding my breath because the dev team is already giving our damage scaling a do-over + 2 new classes + everything else, it just seems like a lot to fit into a few months. I guess I'm cautiously optomistic. I want to love monk again!

I think it's fun enough, I'm currently leveling and it feels good not having to either a) Constantly ramp up or B) mindlessly spam buttons between pulls to prevent yourself from loosing stacks. I definitely find it more fun overall to play then ninja, especially with all the constant moving you do to land positionals.

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Originally Posted by Powercow

A lot of us old Monk players are super jaded. I appreciate the optimism, and it's entirely possible Monk will get some cool, badass feature in EW that makes then super interesting and fun but... well like I've said before, if SE knew how to do that they woulda done it when Monk stagnated hard going into Stormblood.

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It's also the case that this isn't the first time Monk has been in this situation. In Heavensward Monk had major issues and the devs declared that the job balance was overall too screwed up for them to do anything further, so they gave up and gave us Stormblood Monk, which was very poorly received on Launch. Then after all of Stormblood and all of the criticism of that, where the devs actively said on Stream that they thought Stormblood Monk was a poor direction for the job and that they were taking feedback to improve it they made... Shadowbringers Monk, which was basically just 4.0 Monk but worse. The most attention they ever gave Monk was the 5.4 changes and as VentVanitas so summarized so well, they arguably made the job feel worse by exacerbating existing problems.

The devs have by their own actions given every reason for Monk players to be skeptical that the job will ever get better, so I imagine people are going to continue complaining until they prove us wrong. Maybe they will, but twice bitten, thrice shy at this point.

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Originally Posted by Powercow

A lot of us old Monk players are super jaded. I appreciate the optimism, and it's entirely possible Monk will get some cool, badass feature in EW that makes then super interesting and fun but... well like I've said before, if SE knew how to do that they woulda done it when Monk stagnated hard going into Stormblood.

I mean, Monk was gutted going into Shadowbringers and are you really going to sit there and say that was all just setup for the next expansion? What if EW monk sucks too, is that acceptable because obviously that's just setup for the NEXT NEXT expansion after? Is there some point we can say, hey, no, let's not make a framework for something good and let's actually make it good?

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They actually told us this rework was like it is because they're setting up the job better for next expansion, though. Other job reworks have not had that same caveat from the developers. Additionally, you could argue that unlike jobs like machinist or ninja, monk just didn't have a deep well of skills to alter in order to do a massive rework when you consider just how many skills were passive skills that existed only to maintain greased lightning. Could they have done something more interesting? Absolutely. But we do have to realize they were working with a much more shallow pool of potential skills than they were with other jobs.

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Originally Posted by wereotter

They actually told us this rework was like it is because they're setting up the job better for next expansion, though. Other job reworks have not had that same caveat from the developers. Additionally, you could argue that unlike jobs like machinist or ninja, monk just didn't have a deep well of skills to alter in order to do a massive rework when you consider just how many skills were passive skills that existed only to maintain greased lightning. Could they have done something more interesting? Absolutely. But we do have to realize they were working with a much more shallow pool of potential skills than they were with other jobs.

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Last thing I saw on this rework was that the changes were put in mid-Shadowbringers so that Monks wouldn't have to wait until the next expansion for the rework. That sounds to me like what we have *is* the rework, and we're likely going to get the small smattering of skills as usual for next expansion.

Yeah, the new skills won't be about GL maintenence, thank heavens, but frankly we never needed as many as we had. They just kept giving us GL maintenance buttons because that's all they could think to do. But hey, I'm down for being pleasantly surprised.

Take from someone into casual PvE content but super into PvP:

I enjoy the current monk quite a bit. It's my favourite DPS to play. That said, I can tell it is a little undercooked. PvE Monk has fat to trim and three buttons to use for disengagement of which none of them feel good... well, Anatman feels cool but it's just rarely a good option. Fist stances feel like they have no reason to exist. For PvP, monk is almost perfect for Feast, but a mixed bag elsewhere... needs a projectile or escape.

Looking forward to the rest of the revisions. I honestly don't think a lot has to change from a fun standpoint personally, yet. I cannot deny the lower usage numbers in both casual PvE as well as raiding.

After greased lightning rework i really enjoy monk, before that it was just a pain to keep it up and then also lose it with tornado kick.

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Originally Posted by White_Wolf_X

After greased lightning rework i really enjoy monk, before that it was just a pain to keep it up and then also lose it with tornado kick.

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Might be Stockholm Syndrome... but now that it's gone I kind of miss it? Like I feel like the sense of urgency the job used to have is gone, and there's nothing left to fill that gap back in. Twin Snakes is a joke to maintain, and now it's really the only melee job without a similar buff to watch. Dragoon has its blood of the dragon, ninja has huton, and while about as deep as twin snakes now, samurai at both it's jinpu and shifu buffs (so one more timer than monk) to watch. I really hope that there's at least something to bring that sense of speed and urgency back, though not so parasitic as greased lightning was.

Monk has a fast GCD, and way more reliance on positionals (and thus managing RoE and TN) to offset that easier buff management. Its not like huton is much work to maintain, nor is blood of the dragon at max level. In fact BotD is just automatic, and not even downtime can stop you besides cutscenes. Its true that some of the urgency on monk is gone, but I think the job still feels fun and active.

Plus I have so many bad memories of losing GL in a dungeon. At least in trials and raids, you know when you are going to lose it, but in dungeons it varied a lot depending on the party.

I think the monk rework puts it in a good place for 6.0. It feels incomplete right now because it is. 5.4 was a bandaid, and you can see it in all of our vestigial skills, but it puts us in a place where the job can actually be built upon now. Doesn't mean 6.0 will be good necessarily, but I think monk has potential right now.

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Originally Posted by Powercow

I mean, Monk was gutted going into Shadowbringers and are you really going to sit there and say that was all just setup for the next expansion? What if EW monk sucks too, is that acceptable because obviously that's just setup for the NEXT NEXT expansion after? Is there some point we can say, hey, no, let's not make a framework for something good and let's actually make it good?

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I mean, do you think the HR department will allow a full rework before a new expansion arrives when we're already so late into the current expansion? A full rework essentially is a new job, and a new job is a selling point, even if the expansion isn't focused on that job in particular. It keeps things fresh. Having them remove GL and create a framework lets us know that they are at least planning on giving monk a new mechanic to work around with since it will be easier to rebuild the base foundation of the job rather than adding more band-aids for super niche skills. Whether it would be better than the previous iterations is unknown but at least we know they going to change it with months in advance to work on the job rather than have radio silence and maybe a potential rework.

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Originally Posted by AnotherPerson

I mean, do you think the HR department will allow a full rework before a new expansion arrives when we're already so late into the current expansion? A full rework essentially is a new job, and a new job is a selling point, even if the expansion isn't focused on that job in particular. It keeps things fresh. Having them remove GL and create a framework lets us know that they are at least planning on giving monk a new mechanic to work around with since it will be easier to rebuild the base foundation of the job rather than adding more band-aids for super niche skills. Whether it would be better than the previous iterations is unknown but at least we know they going to change it with months in advance to work on the job rather than have radio silence and maybe a potential rework.

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The gutting of Monk began when Shadowbringers launched. Heck, those who were paying attention saw the rework during the press release and collectively thought, "oh, no..." They then made it worse halfway through the expansion. What, was all of that just setup for Endwalker, which is totally going to have the most like, awesomest Monk ever omg guys they've had SOOOO long to work on it. And come on, if they were using the Monk rework as a selling point for the expansion they would have actually mentioned it.

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Originally Posted by Powercow

The gutting of Monk began when Shadowbringers launched. Heck, those who were paying attention saw the rework during the press release and collectively though, "oh, no..." They then made it worse halfway through the expansion. What, was all of that just setup for Endwalker, which is totally going to have the most like, awesomest Monk ever omg guys they've had SOOOO long to work on it.

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Yeah, people were complaining how some didn't like the SB iteration of MNK, some people liked the HW iteration of MNK, etc. So ShB came and they changed MNK again. However, the whole point of MNK getting reworked is because everyone complained about it for multiple expansions. They literally this mentioned in 5.3 that MNK will need to be reworked and addressed this issue by saying they will change it, but a full rework won't be done because they're in the middle of the expansion. At this point, you're just ranting and not looking at the facts by saying how they started gutting MNK in ShB and signals the start of ShB setting things up for Endwalker. No, that's not how it works. Every job got changed in Shadowbringers to have a more solid base foundation - which is why all tanks and healers basically function the same compared to their SB iteration even if people don't like the current changes.

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Originally Posted by Powercow

And come on, if they were using the Monk rework as a selling point for the expansion they would have actually mentioned it.

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Machinist got reworked but it wasn't the poster-boy of Shadowbringers either. That belonged to DRK due to the storyline direction while we got the new jobs DNC and GNB. Likewise, Endwalker will focus on the new jobs Sage and Reaper, and was stated they wanted to make Paladin the poster boy of the expansion. It doesn't mean other jobs which do get changed or reworked are going to be the main focus either. They already mentioned MNK is getting a rework and SMN is going to change because it's at a breaking point, which is already enough to look forward to. Again, whether those changes will be better or worse is unknown, but at least they're doing something about it.

Unless, you want MNK to literally get the same band-aid treatment as before where new skills have niche usage and most of the damage is from your level 1 bootshine combo?

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Originally Posted by AnotherPerson

They already mentioned MNK is getting a rework

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Okay, I've seen like 30 people say this and the only thing I've seen about a monk rework was that Monk was getting a rework in 5.3 because they didn't want to make us wait. (And then it got pushed to 5.4.) Do you have a recent source for this? I follow most of the dev stuff and interviews and the last thing I remember comes from:
https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...808-03-2020%29

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We received many comments on how Greased Lightning doesn’t mesh well with content, so we’re currently considering changing Greased Lightning into a trait. However, this would require adjustments for almost all monk actions and would be very expensive in terms of development manpower cost, so our earliest estimate for these changes would be Patch 5.4.

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And then
https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...810-20-2020%29

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As mentioned previously, monk will receive adjustments to Greased Lightning, among other aspects. Greased Lightning will be changed into a trait, and you’ll no longer have to work to maintain it during combat. Along with this change, Greased Lightning-related actions will have their effects and potencies adjusted.

Although this revamp will be quite large, the adjustments aren’t intended to make major changes to the feeling of the job, and we’re doing our best to maintain that feeling of dishing out blows in rapid succession.

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Which sounds to me like the mess we have now IS the rework/revamp we were promised. I think people are just hopeful Monk will get another one. It needs one, but I haven't seen where people are getting that the 5.4 gutting was just the pretense to the REAL rework.

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Originally Posted by AnotherPerson

Machinist got reworked but it wasn't the poster-boy of Shadowbringers either. That belonged to DRK due to the storyline direction while we got the new jobs DNC and GNB. Likewise, Endwalker will focus on the new jobs Sage and Reaper, and was stated they wanted to make Paladin the poster boy of the expansion.

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Ugh, no. No this isn't about not seeing WoL as a monk. We had that before and... oh god did that go horribly wrong.

No, I meant you made a point that the reason they didn't do it mid-expansion was so the Human Resources department (???) could use it as a marketing ploy for the next expansion -- except they have never even mentioned it. If a major overhaul to Monk akin to an entirely new job was supposed to be a selling point for Endwalker it would have likely had at least a single line on one of those slides during one of the fanfests. I dunno. Maybe your uncle works for Nintendo and has all this awesome insight but I haven't seen anything indicating that what you're proposing is true.

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Originally Posted by Powercow

Okay, I've seen like 30 people say this and the only thing I've seen about a monk rework was that Monk was getting a rework in 5.3 because they didn't want to make us wait. (And then it got pushed to 5.4.) Do you have a recent source for this? I follow most of the dev stuff and interviews and the last thing I remember comes from:

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I think it comes from the FFXIV Reddit Discords' translation of the Liveletter Part 2, where Yoshi-P was translated as saying "Since this is just a patch during an expansion, there will be no new skills." which people interpreted to mean that they wanted to do more but couldn't do it mid expansion. They might have said that in an interview somewhere else, but I can't find anything that says that either.

That said, if this does end up being it for Monk and there isn't more substantial work in 6.0 beyond the standard 2 traits and three actions, then I imagine that the Monk playerbase will riot again. After all the best anyone had to say about 5.4 Monk was that it was a good start rather than it being actually good.

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Originally Posted by Powercow

No, I meant you made a point that the reason they didn't do it mid-expansion was so the Human Resources department (???) could use it as a marketing ploy for the next expansion -- except they have never even mentioned it. If a major overhaul to Monk akin to an entirely new job was supposed to be a selling point for Endwalker it would have likely had at least a single line on one of those slides during one of the fanfests. I dunno. Maybe your uncle works for Nintendo and has all this awesome insight but I haven't seen anything indicating that what you're proposing is true.

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To be fair, MCH getting completely rebuilt into an entirely new job for Shadowbringers didn't get mentioned during the fanfests. For most of the build up to 5.0, all we heard about it was during interviews where they said they "taking feedback" about it. The first time we actually found out what they were doing with it was in the Liveletter before the media tour with the action showcase. We aren't going to have any idea about what they're doing until September/October at the latest, even if an interview directly asks what they're doing with Monk because more likely than not the answer will be "We're compiling feedback for it from Shadowbringers." However I would still say it was part of the advertising/hype cycle, but it was only in the part that appeals to existing players rather than something that's a bullet point on the box to draw in new players.

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Originally Posted by SpeckledBurd

I think it comes from the FFXIV Reddit Discords' translation of the Liveletter Part 2, where Yoshi-P was translated as saying "Since this is just a patch during an expansion, there will be no new skills." which people interpreted to mean that they wanted to do more but couldn't do it mid expansion. They might have said that in an interview somewhere else, but I can't find anything that says that either.

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Yeah, figured it was an optimistic interpretation of a fan translation or something. Essentially they're just pulling it out of the ether.

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However I would still say it was part of the advertising/hype cycle, but it was only in the part that appeals to existing players rather than something that's a bullet point on the box to draw in new players.

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Of course new skills are part of the hype, I don't think anyone isn't expecting new stuff. But I think a lot of these people are setting themselves up for a maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaajor disappointment when the massive new Monk overhaul that we were totally, 100%, absolutely-Yoshida-came-to-my-house-and-whispered-it-into-my-ear-while-I-was-asleep-really-they-said-it promised us doesn't happen.

I'll get excited for a monk rework if I see one with the media tour in 4 months.

Don’t expect anyting from MNK.
Only disappointment awaits you.

MNK suggestion for 6.0:

-Every two rear-positional leaden bootshines will proc a "super bootshine" with a flashy animation and higher potency. They can implement this into the job gauge and will reward Monks for hitting their most important positional. This addresses the complaint that MNK doesn't "build up to anything" and is less flashy than other classes.
-Each PB phase will end with one of these super bootshines to replace the usual final bootshine. In order to prevent drifting and a snowball effect if you miss a bootshine, I propose that activating PB should reset your "bootshine stacks". Correct me if I'm wrong, but in your downtime between PB you should be able to do two of these super bootshines (six bootshines in total) and this PB will prevent you from having an excess stack going into your burst phase. This way PB always ends with your most flashy and satisfying move if done correctly.

Would any MNK players like a mechanic like this? I would love something along these lines for Endwalker to add to the satisfaction of the job and reward players for hitting positionals.

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Originally Posted by Amh_Wilzuun

MNK suggestion for 6.0:

-Every two rear-positional leaden bootshines will proc a "super bootshine" with a flashy animation and higher potency. They can implement this into the job gauge and will reward Monks for hitting their most important positional. This addresses the complaint that MNK doesn't "build up to anything" and is less flashy than other classes.
-Each PB phase will end with one of these super bootshines to replace the usual final bootshine. In order to prevent drifting and a snowball effect if you miss a bootshine, I propose that activating PB should reset your "bootshine stacks". Correct me if I'm wrong, but in your downtime between PB you should be able to do two of these super bootshines (six bootshines in total) and this PB will prevent you from having an excess stack going into your burst phase. This way PB always ends with your most flashy and satisfying move if done correctly.

Would any MNK players like a mechanic like this? I would love something along these lines for Endwalker to add to the satisfaction of the job and reward players for hitting positionals.

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I'd like something to build towards like Polyglot or Shoha, especially in regards to positionals, but if it's just a bigger/stronger Bootshine, then no.

More emphasis on Bootshine is the last thing MNK needs. If the job receives a mechanic like this then it'd be better off as a separate weaponskill entirely.

Furthermore, your PB suggestion implies that you're doing nothing but Bootshine, no thanks, PB is already too similar to Inner Release.

I was kickin' around an idea, it aint perfect but it'd be a damn sight more interesting than what we have now.

The Forbidden Chakra, Enlightenment, Tornado Kick, Perfect Balance, Shoulder Tackle and Anatman are all redesigned. The Fist of Element abilities are removed because they're useless. Make Fists of Wind a passive if it's so important.

So Chakras get split into the Light and Dark chakras from our job quests. Also we have a max of 7. (Why did they make such a big deal about 7 chakras of Light and 7 of Dark and then give us 5 of Yellow? Ugh.)

Every time you land a positional, or if you use an on-GCD aoe skill and hit 3+ targets, you get a Chakra of Light. 5 light chakras is Enlightenment.
Every time you land an autoattack, you get a Chakra of Dark. 5 of these is The Forbidden Chakra.

Anatman is now a 3-minute cooldown. Using Anatman takes 5 Light and 5 Dark. It's on the GCD and is essentially your power-up phase (accompanied by a cool animation and sound effect). After activation, you gain a huge buff for 20 seconds: no positional requirements, +50% movement (so Sprint), +30% damage, and +30% haste. However, you can no longer generate chakras for the duration. This prevents an overflow on oGCDs and keeps this phase from getting too out of hand, while still keeping it super fast and powerful. And since you don't need to sweat positionals during it, you can focus on just beating the everliving hell out of your enemy. Re-activating Anatman during its duration will use Tornado Kick, which is now on the GCD and deals a much greater amount of damage (and we can actually see the cool animation), but ends the effect. Sorta similar to Confiteor for Paladin in that it ends a damage mode, and can be used early if there's a phase transition or a need for some immediate burst.

Perfect Balance is redesigned so that every 90 seconds, for 15 seconds, autoattacks also generate a Chakra of Light, and positionals also generate a Chakra of Dark. Let the oGCDs floooow. (Also it fits thematically methinks, balance between light and dark and all that.)

Shoulder Tackle no longer deals damage, just closes the gap. This will slightly slow down oGCD usage, since you're gonna be using a lot of Chakra abilities. Also you'll always have it available if you need to get off a boss for a bit.

With 7 max chakras you should never theoretically overcap unless you're neglectful on spending them, and you generate them so frequently that you'll be weaving in an absolute buttload of oGCD abilities. Might be a few too many, in all honesty. Ah well.

Lastly, re-add Riddle of Wind as its own button, a 2 minute cooldown that increases the range of your melee weapon skills to 20 yalms for 10 seconds. The ultimate disconnect move to make up for the inability to generate chakras off a target. Your autoattacks will not continue if you move out of range, and your oGCDs most likely won't reach, so you're still losing a lot of damage but you're not entirely helpless. Or add Chi Blast which gives 1 chakra of each, but that feels way too similar to Ninja and Samurai's generic ranged filler move. SSS will stay more or less the same as-is, but now it has a more distinct role without manual chakra generation. Riddle of Earth could do with some tweaking but I'm not sure on how to get that working. Personally I'd remove the no-positionals thing and just make it a pure defensive skill of some sort, but I know a lot of people want it to keep the anti-positionals functionality it has now.

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Originally Posted by VentVanitas

I'd like something to build towards like Polyglot or Shoha, especially in regards to positionals, but if it's just a bigger/stronger Bootshine, then no.

More emphasis on Bootshine is the last thing MNK needs. If the job receives a mechanic like this then it'd be better off as a separate weaponskill entirely.

Furthermore, your PB suggestion implies that you're doing nothing but Bootshine, no thanks, PB is already too similar to Inner Release.

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MNK is gonna have an emphasis on bootshine unless you want to radically redesign the job from the ground up. This just makes the current gameplay more satisfying. Also I don’t know what you read but my PB suggestion was just to prevent misalignment. You are still alternating DK and BS. If you want to de-emphasize bootshine then you could do a mechanic like this on other forms. I originally tried to think up a version of this with your couerl form third combo buttons, but it was much harder to align everything while also fitting it into the burst window.

I just like my current suggestion because it wouldn’t change up the flow of the rotation too much which I actually quite like, just make it meatier with a little less margin for error.

Additionally, I don’t think there’s anything inherently wrong with Bootshine besides the fact that it’s a level 1 skill with a basic animation. This seems to be most people’s issue with the skill, but during the normal rotation it comes up once every two 123 combos. I do like seeing that big crit number at regular intervals in regards to the feeling of playing a fast paced hand-to-hand job tbh. A more flashy attack to build up to would make the job more satisfying however.

Would you maybe be in favor of this if you also had to hit the other two positionals correctly for the proc? (So basically your entire combo leading up to bootshine has to be positionally correct). And then PB could also be redesigned somehow. (It’s still a far cry from inner release imo with the weaving and positional switching).

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Originally Posted by Amh_Wilzuun

MNK is gonna have an emphasis on bootshine unless you want to radically redesign the job from the ground up. This just makes the current gameplay more satisfying. Also I don’t know what you read but my PB suggestion was just to prevent misalignment. You are still alternating DK and BS. If you want to de-emphasize bootshine then you could do a mechanic like this on other forms. I originally tried to think up a version of this with your couerl form third combo buttons, but it was much harder to align everything while also fitting it into the burst window.

I just like my current suggestion because it wouldn’t change up the flow of the rotation too much which I actually quite like, just make it meatier with a little less margin for error.

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You really don't have to radically redesign the job from the ground up to take the emphasis off of bootshine, you just have to change Dragon Kick back to an effect that slightly buffs every action instead of hyper charging one. That's functionally what it was as the blunt debuff, and if Dragon Kick were just a 10% Crit or Direct Hit buff to the Monk then it would do that without the need for a phase where you spam Leaden Bootshines.

There's been a lot to dislike about Shadowbringers Monk and while Leaden Bootshine isn't the worst thing about it, I still don't care for it. It's still part of the continued trend where Monk's original design has been weakened by implementing system wide changes to Monk when the job's form based combos made it work differently. I'd rather they change it back to something more similar to what it was pre-Shadowbringers rather than lean into Shadowbringers errors any further.

They should just let the guy who designed Tifa gameplay from FFVII remake to do the design for 6.0 MNK.

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Originally Posted by SpeckledBurd

You really don't have to radically redesign the job from the ground up to take the emphasis off of bootshine, you just have to change Dragon Kick back to an effect that slightly buffs every action instead of hyper charging one. That's functionally what it was as the blunt debuff, and if Dragon Kick were just a 10% Crit or Direct Hit buff to the Monk then it would do that without the need for a phase where you spam Leaden Bootshines.

There's been a lot to dislike about Shadowbringers Monk and while Leaden Bootshine isn't the worst thing about it, I still don't care for it. It's still part of the continued trend where Monk's original design has been weakened by implementing system wide changes to Monk when the job's form based combos made it work differently. I'd rather they change it back to something more similar to what it was pre-Shadowbringers rather than lean into Shadowbringers errors any further.

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This sounds less satisfying and fun than the current iteration of the job where you work toward bootshine as the big damage attack. MNK already has a damage buff they maintain during their combos and another one to maintain sounds boring compared to the leaden fist buff. I also don’t see how it makes the monk more about the form based combos since there’s still gonna be an optional rotation to stick to, just without the satisfying bootshines. And if you don’t like perfect balance, suggest a better version of a burst phase. Saying it’s just spamming bootshine is still kinda disingenuous, but if you wanted to make it more complex to build towards a big attack that could be cool.

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Originally Posted by Amh_Wilzuun

This sounds less satisfying and fun than the current iteration of the job where you work toward bootshine as the big damage attack.

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That depends on how it's situated. Personally, I found Dragon Kick in the context of ARR and StB gameplay (due to Demolish's duration at those times allowing for Dragon Kick to be dropped just before Demolish and its own reapplication in exchange for a Bootshine and True Strike to notable net potency gain) more interesting than the current Leaden Fist combos.

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I also don’t see how it makes the monk more about the form based combos since there’s still gonna be an optional rotation to stick to, just without the satisfying bootshines.

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Again, the past (and especially the StB Riddle of Fire slow-down) has done this part better, as optimal play then often tended to itself rotate between different rotations, while further changing more or less on the fly based on add spawns, number of DoT targets being maintained, and forced downtime.

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And if you don’t like perfect balance, suggest a better version of a burst phase. Saying it’s just spamming bootshine is still kinda disingenuous, but if you wanted to make it more complex to build towards a big attack that could be cool.

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For my part, Perfect Balance was a plentifully interesting mechanic back when it offered distinct advantages in AoE, utility, and ST throughput, and especially when those throughput affordances depended on one's other abilities and starting form (e.g. Riddle of Wind, Coeurl form). If anything, it was the siphoning of AoE potency from Rockbreaker to other (new) AoE GCDs, the loss of our utility, and the removal of our core mechanic so devalued that pinnacle ability, not any flaw in the concept itself.

But, of course, I'm the in the apparent minority who actually liked Greased Lightning as a mechanic, perhaps most especially when it was a challenge to maintain (e.g. Brayflox HM speedruns, T10, etc., back when it had only a 10s duration), and would rather not have had the job's core mechanic gutted rather than revised and polished, let alone on a vague hope that, contrary to all recent job designs, we'd get something interesting in its place.

That said, it's not disingenuous to say that PB is currently Leaden Fist spam. Optimally used under an ideal GCD length, it is.

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Originally Posted by Ceasaria

They should just let the guy who designed Tifa gameplay from FFVII remake to do the design for 6.0 MNK.

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Sadly, I doubt much of the spectacle of that system would carry over to one where it's very obvious you're just punching vaguely in the direction of a generic cylinder unaffected by your actions, in place of VII-R's in which the actual timing and geometry matters.

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Originally Posted by Amh_Wilzuun

This sounds less satisfying and fun than the current iteration of the job where you work toward bootshine as the big damage attack. MNK already has a damage buff they maintain during their combos and another one to maintain sounds boring compared to the leaden fist buff. I also don’t see how it makes the monk more about the form based combos since there’s still gonna be an optional rotation to stick to, just without the satisfying bootshines. And if you don’t like perfect balance, suggest a better version of a burst phase. Saying it’s just spamming bootshine is still kinda disingenuous, but if you wanted to make it more complex to build towards a big attack that could be cool.

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It's fundamentally the same feel and it opens up the opportunity for the big hit that you build some other way as Vent suggested rather than doubling down on Leaden Bootshines. Again, I frankly don't consider Leaden Bootshine to be satisfying as a big hit at all and the amount of potency tied up in its positional is so high that it's actually something of an issue since it's functionally the same as missing every single positional a Dragoon would have in both combos all tied up on one GCD. I'd rather see Tornado Kick be turned into a Weaponskill so we can actually see it's entire animation and have it be the final blow of a Riddle of Fire window, or properly executing 15 positionals consecutively giving you a resource that would cut the recast of Six Sided Star in half allowing it to be used rotationally. There's plenty of more interesting things that can be done with Monk's kit than leaning into Bootshine.

It's no more disingenuous to say that you spam Leaden Bootshine during Perfect Balance than it is to say you spam Fell Cleave in Inner Release. That's just what you do in it, to the point where it's optimal to allow Twin Snakes to fall off in the middle of Riddle of Fire to continue spamming it.

As for something else Perfect Balance could be: Blitzes. I said this during the 90 page Monk Needs a Rework thread, but Perfect Balance could be used to tie the Form Based combos into the Blitz System. You activate Perfect Balance and will be able to do a short string of Weaponskills in an order that would correspond to a given sequence of Opo Opo, Coeurl, and Raptor skills. The correct sequence would allow you to use some sort of finishing move like Suplex, Dolphin Blow, Rising Phoenix, or Phantom Rush. Unlike Dances or Ninjutsus, you'd still execute the skills during your Blitz period rather than just doing some other animation.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

That said, it's not disingenuous to say that PB is currently Leaden Fist spam. Optimally used under an ideal GCD length, it is.

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It's literally not though, and it's not close to being like Inner Release.