I have felt the game has begun to be to no longer be a challenge outside of extreme/savage/ultimate. A lot of the difficulty can be fixed with better dungeon/mob design mechanics and making bosses much more volatile. I rarely die in dungeons as a tank, but I would really love it if the dev's would make dungeons MUCH harder other then "sprout incompetence". Fine tune the mechanics.
Having said that.
Given the information about the "stat squish" and Yoshi-P's example during the endwalkers press event. Tanks will probably see a huge benefit to the reduced damage, HP, and all stats.
Yoshi-P's example: "I'm a level 80 Blackmage with 530 ilevel and I cast Fire IV, that is non crit and non DH. It will do around 50k damage. After the stat adjustment it will do around 10k damage, roughly 80% less then current values."
Skills I worry about are ones that scale with Max HP, Life Steal on attack, and attack power based skills.
Will Nascent Flash no longer be the go to for my meat blender WAR if i'm only getting 10k HP per hit?
Will The Blackest Night no longer be the best skill in the game for damage mitigation if I only have 30-40k max HP?
Now this could also mean that enemy HP will also adjusted downwards. Basically making it a wash when defeating enemies and mitigating damage.
But if SE was clever and actually made mobs/bosses hit HARDER? This could potentially "fix" this whole DPS is everything mentality.
Tanks need to mitigate better, Healers need to heal more, and DPS need to well...just DPS, but the emphasis will fall squarely on the DPS killing the mob's as the tank and heals will eventually run out of resources and are naturally gimp in the DPS department. Everyone will fill out there roll, but can't survive without the other.
We could get to the point where Tank can't live without heals and DPS. Heals can't live without tanks and DPS. And DPS can't live without tank and heals. Might even be able to keep those enrage timers, tank busters, and healer targeted mechanics, but the ramp up the difficulty.
6.0 Stat Squish will be good for tanks
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05-12-2021, 04:13 AMSqwall6.0 Stat Squish will be good for tanks
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05-12-2021, 04:58 AMLeonKeyh
The idea behind the stat squish is that everything, relative to everything else at that level, is going to remain the same. Unless they have decided to do stat tuning on top of the squish (which, as far as I know, hasn't been announced at all), then you won't see any difference in gameplay EXCEPT whenever doing unsynced content at a level higher than the expansion the content is from.
The stat squish, in and of itself, does nothing that you're hoping for. It will only affect unsynced content that you have out leveled. That doesn't mean that they won't, in addition, perform tuning that gives you everything that you're hoping for, but that hasn't been discussed at all.
Also, stat squishes actually make it so that they have less "fine tuning" precision available, not more. The bigger the number (with integers) the more fine tuning you have available. -
05-12-2021, 05:10 AMshao32
Idk, we are talking about a understaffed combat dev team so unless Yoship says they have double the amount of members on the combat team and now have a dedicated tester team to work with so the Devs don't have to do all by themselfs i doubt we would see any real improvement of the situation, yeah im being negative but i can't help it, SHB have mined a lot any expectaction for any improvement for tanks and combat content and i totally wish with all my heart to be wrong.
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05-12-2021, 05:33 AMSeathts
I understand and agree that tanks need to deal with more incoming damage, but the stat squish won't solve that. The most likely result is that the game will play exactly the same as it does now except the numbers will be smaller; nothing else will change unless they make a design change unrelated to the squish.
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05-12-2021, 09:53 AMDeceptusWoW has attempted multiple stat squishes and they have gotten it wrong every single time they've done it. This is a company who has done it before and should know how to do it right and they STILL manage to mess it up each time.Quote:
Originally Posted by shao32
Guess what is the biggest problem with it? Re-balancing old content. It doesn't work to just say Kefka / Omega now does 80% less damage just like you do.
So, seeing as how another company has failed at it multiple times and how SE has a proven track record of really screwing up new systems they try, I have zero faith in them that they'll get it right.
I'd love to be pleasantly surprised, but I doubt I will be. -
05-12-2021, 10:26 AMKabooa
The stat squish is nothing more than numbers pairing down. If it is not combined with shifts in design, then all it really accomplishes is cutting off a zero and lowering a leading digit.
I doubt we're going to see an issue with doing content unsynced. Shadowbringers content will be paired down accordingly with the stat squish, and Stormblood and before, whatever decrease occurs, is still going to be contending with whatever scaling Level 90 brings. -
05-12-2021, 10:44 PMBrandedbladeBetween the sheer negativity of this comment and your signature. I sense you are an incredibly fun person to play with.Quote:
Originally Posted by Deceptus
That unnessecary comment aside, My understanding of the stat squish is just as Kabooa says, still the same algorithms, just a couple digits shaved off to reduce the likelihood of overflow glitches occuring. Who knows? I certainly have no reason to feel negative about this, seems reasonable with how the stats scale with the ilevel powercreep that's inevitable in a game like this. -
05-12-2021, 11:08 PMSqwallI agree to both your points.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandedblade
To the later I think SE could tweak the mob stats slightly above the appropriate value, for a more engaging experience. Now if they don't want to do that...
Then maybe it's time they return to Hard mode dungeons. We didn't get ANY hard mode dungeons this expansion, and I for one was hoping (half expecting) some hard modes from stormblood. Chalk it up to lack of time or not enough dev's for all the projects going on.
I just want a challenge outside of the once a week savage/extreme run. Party finder is fine for PUG's....but PUG's SUUUUUUUUUUUUUCCCCCCCCCCCCKKKKKKKKKKKKK! Give me some high tuned dailies to keep coming back to and I'll be a happy camper.
Bring in "Heroic" modes that really test the skill of small parties, while offering up some really cool rewards (tomestones, mounts, minions, cosmetics,). Hell even add something like dungeon time trials to see who can get the fastest time posted on ranking boards, or really difficult to pull off achievements that offer titles.
Something like skulls in Halo 3 that REALLY added something unique to the game to allow the community to attempt crazy things. Like an all tank ultimate/extreme run that I have seen pop -
05-13-2021, 12:35 AMLiam_HarperThere's nothing wrong with being skeptical due to a poor track record. If you sit back and give no feedback or concerns, it'll be too late once the expansion is released.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandedblade
Stat squishes aren't as simple as dividing everything by 5 and calling it a day. Firstly they're only scaling values for lv51-80. Current content isn't too difficult since you're scaling it to the new stats, but old content will be affected far more. For example ARR EX's are aimed for lv50, which isn't a target of scaling but we'll still be fully scaled and 5 times weaker. Lv60 content will have some scaling, but there will still be growth from current lv50-new lv60, so they'll be harder than lv50 but we're still the full 5 times weaker. At 80 it starts to look more relative to how it feels now.
This happened in WoW. Old content became significantly harder unsynch and the developers learned that a sizable portion of their playerbase loved doing old content. The same is true in FF14, we love running old stuff unsynch for glams, mounts, story we missed, carrying BLU's, achievements, ect. In WoW it was a mess and they had to introduce a series of insane buffs for high levels in old content, but never quite got it right and had the issue with old content becoming much harder several times again later. It really wasn't ever a simple matter of "shaving a few 0's off".
The biggest concern with FF14 is that Yoshi admitted old content may become harder and that "they might look into it and see what they can do". They have no set plan for something that a much larger MMO company has tried, failed and struggled badly with. This is a complicated task, they can't underestimate it, they need to know exactly what they're doing. -
05-13-2021, 01:20 AMFtailSquare Enix doesn’t listen to customer feedback or concerns, that should really be obvious by now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Liam_Harper
Back on topic, the best thing to do to make content harder would be to lower the ilvl sync for dungeons and trials. Our ilvl is just way too high in comparison to the average ilvl when stuff first came out. -
05-13-2021, 08:48 AMMikey_RI mean, I don't think you could call the old 'hard' dungeons hard. They were still scaled the exact same as every other dungeon in the level range. The 'hard' label is just that it is a higher level than the original dungeon.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sqwall
I think you might have misunderstood the statement. Older content being harder is only related to doing it unsynced. Doing it synced, it should feel exactly the same as it does now, just lower numbers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Liam_Harper
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05-13-2021, 12:32 PMCabalabobI actually raised concerns over power creep all the way back in ARR because we were level 50 and already over 9999 hp and using ilvl 120 gear. (Comparing to ffxi which went the majority of its lifespan without using ilvl gear and even at the end of the games life tanks at level 99 in the best gear still only sit at around 6k hp). If they’d listened and nipped it in the bud back then stat squish could have been avoided entirely, but nope, didn’t listen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ftail
As for OP, the stat squish is across the board, we’ll deal less damage but we’re also going to have less health and take less damage so everything should realistically be the same just the numbers will be smaller. Think of it kind of like if you had 10k health and you were taking 5k damage and you just cut a 0 off the end of both numbers, now you have 1k health and you’re taking 500 damage, same result just smaller amounts. -
05-13-2021, 03:39 PMVyrerus
Guess that means we should stock up on High Allagan glam stones and stuff while it's still super easy to acquire.
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05-13-2021, 04:03 PMIscahYeah, Binding Coil accessibility is going to take a big hit from this. It sounds like the easiest it's going to get post-squish would be equivalent to doing it around level 60 now. Maybe low-geared 70 if we're lucky.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vyrerus
Fingers crossed this may finally be the expansion that they bring in a "story mode" version instead of blocking it off even harder.
I need to look at farming some Dreadwyrm weapons while I still can. -
05-14-2021, 12:16 AMKabooaIf the numbers end up how they're talking about, our i530 80 is going to be approximately i340 70.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iscah
We will then have level 90 and the entirety of i-scaling there in addition, assuming they also don't add a scaling effect per level higher than the duty you're doing. (Like +5% echo per level) -
05-14-2021, 12:31 AMAC9Breaker
I feel like everything is gonna be the same just smaller numbers.
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05-14-2021, 01:39 AMIscahI haven't seen detailed numbers, but I thought they said our stats would be unchanged up to level 50 but then fairly flat from 50-80 before picking up again for 80-90.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kabooa
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05-14-2021, 02:51 AMLeonKeyhThat's exactly what it will be for at-level/synced content.Quote:
Originally Posted by AC9Breaker
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kabooa
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iscah
I'm not asking to challenge what you're saying Kabooa, I'm genuinely interested in the specifics. Like Iscah, I haven't seen detailed numbers. Can you share the source of that information? I remembered hearing details, something like 51-80 being condensed to 51-60's stat growth (or maybe it was 51-70), but haven't been able to track that info down at all.
Given all of the talks about stat squishing going on in the forums here, I'd like to have more details to properly discuss it. -
05-14-2021, 03:45 AMUltimatecaliburThey are adjusting the scaling formulas to be flatter as gear growth rates are the source of the problem where as the numbers output are a symptom of the problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cabalabob
Look at the PLD's solo HP in various "endgame" content:- Wander's Palace - Level 50 minilevel i45 - 3954
- Amdapor Keep (hard) - Level 50 ARR ilevelcap i130 - 9217
- ARF - Level 60 minilevel i142 -14108
- Baelsar's Wall - level 60 HW ilevelcap i270 - 34526
- Ala Mhigo - Level 70 minilevel i280 - 38935
- Ghimlyt Dark - Level 70 StB ilevelcap i400 - 75227
- Bozjan Southern From - level 80 ilevelsync i430 - 111151
- unsynced i522 - 187444
The biggest jumps are at the various caps (where ilevels go up by ~100 each expac) rather than between expansions. -
05-14-2021, 10:27 AMKabooaWe can only work off the brief example they gave us, which is YoshiP flexing his BIS Black Mage. If you watch the video again, he gives the example that he deals approximately 50,000 damage per Fire 4 (Which checks out.). After the squish, he'd be doing 10,000. Doing this directly do a DPS log would put it around 4.5-5.5k DPS, which is about BIS Deltascape. Now it's not an easy translation, potencies have changed, new actions have been added, and other tweaks have been made since then.Quote:
Originally Posted by LeonKeyh
Quite simply, we know what they're going to do, but we don't know how they're going to do it. They gave us an intended goal, but because we have no PTR, the only testing that can happen will be expansion day, and there are far, far more important things to do than worry about the numbers and unsynced content.
However, I'm not particularly worried. There's a reason for that. I disagree with some of their overall design decisions, but I've not found their math to be wrong. The core principle guiding the decisions often goes wayward, but when the goal is set, the math is impeccable.
ARR doesn't change. This is the baseline they appear to want to follow. From there, hey scale the leveling process, and then set an entry and end point at each tier. They do not update encounters to reflect changes to classes and expansions, even Ultimate (so far at least.).
So while this is purely speculation, this is how I see it going.
ARR unchanged. The new formula is implemented. Growth1 (As we are now) is checked compared to Growth2 (Our new formula.) Content number is tuned around these checks. This might seem like there's a lot of room to go wrong, but they've already done all of Growth1. Classes have only gotten stronger since their implementation in terms of numbers, so if they want to really crunch the numbers, they'd rerun Growth1 with the most up to date formula and potencies.
Using the vault as an example, they know a Dragoon in appropriate gear has X HP, Y Attack Power at level 57 on Growth1. They check their new formula at this level, plug in the stats, and get X2 HP, and Y2 Attack Power.
X2 is divided by X - This is how much unavoidable damage needs to decrease to be proportional.
Y2 divided by Y - This is how much Enemy health needs to decrease to be proportional.
To illustrate this, we'll say that at Growth1, a Level 57 Dragoon has 10,000 HP and 1000 Attack Power. With the new formula, Growth 2, the same dragoon has 8,200 HP and 820 Attack power.
Incoming damage needs to be lowered to 8,200/10,000 or to 82%.
Enemy health has to be lowered to 820/1000 or to 82%.
By extension, every enemy level 57 to 58 can be assumed to have a similar reduction needed - after all, they were all tuned with Growth1 already.
This is an overly simplistic example. The damage formula has changed over time, and potencies have shifted upwards, but the principle is the same. If I asked you to go through 100 sets of numbers, and work them through a different formula, I have no doubt you'd succeed. You might get some wrong along the way, but you also have 20 points of extra credit (Level 90 and new actions) so in the end, I think you're going to be fine.
Edit: https://youtu.be/FJLNV5cYN_U?t=6373
Here is the information most of us are working from.
Please keep in mind - They stress this is just an example, and they 'expect' the result to be in that range. -
05-14-2021, 06:51 PMLyth
In other words, it's purely an illustrative example so that the average player who may not have played another MMO can understand what a 'stat squish' entails. We're not even talking about gameplay footage. I'm sure that won't prevent a few mathemagicians here from spinning some curious yarns, though.
Everything is subject to change pending balance and testing. Sit back and enjoy the show. -
05-14-2021, 08:46 PMLeonKeyhGot it, got it. I wrote off the rest of the specifics from that because at the beginning of that portion of the panel they said "This is just an example, we don't know the actual numbers. But if a level gives you 5%, after this it might only give you 1% stat growth." But, watching through again where you posted, this portion is disconnected from that qualifier and shows what they were going for.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kabooa
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05-28-2021, 09:51 AMCabalabobThat was the point I raised back in ARR, the ilvl was just too high. Imagine how different the game would look now if instead of being level 50 and ilvl 130 by the end of ARR, we were level 50 and Ilvl 57 or so (entry level gear from endgame dungeons being 51, tomes being 52, savage 53, then next tomes/savage being 54/55 and final tier being 56/57). Then when HW came around the gear for the expansion wouldn’t have to be ilvl at all, they could have made gear that was just level 51-60 with ilvl 61-67 coming back for endgame and so on into the future.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur
If that had been the case, then we’d be around ilvl 87 right now that would be lower than we were at the end of FIRST COIL! Tanks wouldn’t even be at 9k hp yet, all they had to do was get that power creep in check early on.