Make tenacity great

We should find a way to make tenacity great without overpowering it because right now even though it is a tank stats (only) , it doesn't do a great job at convincing us we need it

A tenacity build >>>> no build (or a random slot build)

Stat squish is probably trying to push for that in 6.0 but it might have the opposite effect anyone not a tank... so they end up making stat balance even worse than it already is when DPS start getting one-shot once again from at least ONE mechanic since belts are no longer going to be a thing which may make fights take slightly longer especially in leveling content(which is the most gutted content at the moment due to bad homogenization).

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Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure

Stat squish is probably trying to push for that in 6.0 but it might have the opposite effect anyone not a tank... so they end up making stat balance even worse than it already is when DPS start getting one-shot once again from at least ONE mechanic since belts are no longer going to be a thing which may make fights take slightly longer especially in leveling content(which is the most gutted content at the moment due to bad homogenization).

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I sincerely doubt the small amount of stats belts bring is going to matter in any way other than as a scapegoat.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

I sincerely doubt the small amount of stats belts bring is going to matter in any way other than as a scapegoat.

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I could have misheard but iirc, the stats from the belt will be redistributed among other pieces too, in case I did mishear, 100% belt isn't gonna make that much of a difference.

Full disclosure I run Warrior and have stayed with Crit, DET meld on the 520 Cryptlurker gear. When I swap to Paladin, Dark Knight I notice a difference since I don't want to remeld to DH.

I suppose it's all in how you look at it. I melded full tenacity with the 490 crystarium gear and got it to about 3k. The difference was able to get hit like a truck and shrug it off, and the heals from equilibrium would heal for about 50k and crit normally for 60-70k. Tenacity is great if you want to see some minor increase to preventing damage, and increasing incoming healing.

The other side of the coin is I added about 12 seconds on my Stone Sky Sea Eden Refulgence (savage) compared to full crit, Det meld on my warrior. Still finished it, but it was pretty close.

I think once you get into the 3k area for anything you start to see the difference.

Off topic but I can really see the difference when I run full CRIT on monk vs. full DH vs. full DET. Good thing is there isn't any real major hinderance to completing content.

Yea but see , according to a spreadsheet i found the diff between going full ten to only getting the minimal amount from gear (around 1.5k) is like 5-6% less dmg taken. Not enough to convince any tank that the downtime created by this will save the healer enough mp healing to mp used in dps. They need to make it so tenacity is relevant or get rid of it. Maybe tenacity could add to parry chance and add an extra potency to our DCD so that we would actually look at it and go Hey! 12% less dmg taken with rampart this is actually worth it!

I suppose my question is: how large of a disparity in tankiness should there be between someone who has min iLV for the content vs someone fully geared up?
If it's too big it throws off how they balance content, it leads to healers being quite bored after tanks get too beefy.
I suspect this is why a lot of our tanking stats are de-emphasized.

Personally, I'd like to see them further de-emphasized and have tanking rely more on your skillz.
Buffing a stat doesn't make your gameplay more dynamic. If anything it makes your time playing less interesting as you can start ignoring more and more of a fight/dungeon/whatever.
Having a higher party stat doesn't change how I play vs having a low party stat. It's just an artificial gate asking if my stat is good enough to survive. It's like a min iLV check... but for a stat.
(This is all assuming they increase tenacity efficiency AND make it important to have, and not make it influence your build more, but you still dont need it)

Tying tankiness to ability usage on the other hand... expanding what tools you have and how you can use them will lead to a more involved and dynamic tanking, and it's a design angle that's obliterated much less by the player out gearing content.
And here the gate to clearing content isn't "is your number bigger than X? You are tanky enough to survive." But more about "can you use your kit well enough to survive these things and potentially improvise on the fly when things go skills.

Not that SQEX couldn't do both.
Not that there isn't a FF14 out there with big tank stats and more dynamic kits.
But then it leads back into players being able to be too tanky and the problems that creates.

The best way to address this is to have Tenacity replace Strength as a new primary stat for tanks. Tenacity is always going to be kept tightly in check as long as it's a secondary stat to prevent there from being large disparities in tankiness. But all those features - damage output, mitigation, and healing/shielding received - should continuously scale with higher item levels.

In return, make Direct Hit into a tank secondary, and encourage players to maintain a balanced portfolio of Crit, Direct Hit, Determination, and Haste, without making one or two of them clearly the best and encouraging everyone to double down on them.

personally i throw TEN on my tanking gear when crit isnt available, since i dont need DH on WAR and it's what? half of DET's damage but with tanky bonus effects (damage reduction and increased healing), which i've found is helpful for the non-WHM healers and my massive hp pool. gets decent use on DRK as well due to them effectively lacking 2 defensive cooldowns half the time.

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Originally Posted by SpiralMask

personally i throw TEN on my tanking gear when crit isnt available, since i dont need DH on WAR and it's what? half of DET's damage but with tanky bonus effects (damage reduction and increased healing), which i've found is helpful for the non-WHM healers and my massive hp pool. gets decent use on DRK as well due to them effectively lacking 2 defensive cooldowns half the time.

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I'm just not really seeing it tbh. If you for example replaced every DET meld in the warrior BiS set with TEN you would still only end up with something like 1326 Tenacity, which isn't even 3% passive mitigation. Let's assume the boss actually hits you for 50k per auto attack, that's still only 1500 damage mitigated from your Tenacity, it's barely noticeable, the miniscule amount is not gonna make a healer change the way they heal and it's certainly not gonna be the difference between dead and alive.

Personally I would like to see something in the realm of removing the passive defense stats in favor of a class specific stat. Incoming WoW reference!

But I really liked the gem slotting of mastery for a class. Each class had a inherent specific stat that you could enhance through "melding" to increase your roles effectiveness.

Example for WoW warrior with shield: Stat mastery gave you critical block. I don't remember the values, but stack your mastery to the moon and it allowed you to block more, increase your chance to block critical hits more, and also increased your attack power. Base values were 4% block for maybe 50 mastery, and then 150 mastery it would be 8%. It would just go higher and higher until you capped out. It wasn't "required" but somewhat necessary to improve your tankiness

Example for FFXIV: Warrior would be passive parry mitigation. Paladin would be passive block chance/amount. Dark Knight would be passive incoming healing. Gunbreaker would be passive dodge/evade.

Slotting materia into this mastery stat would increase your job specific stat and each job would be less "homogenized" persay. Since we won't every get skill trees, and tenacity/parry/block offer nothing really worthwhile. Then I say allow the tanks to shore up their weaknesses.

VIT really dictates how much damage a tank can absorb ever since they changed that in Heavensward? (memory escapes me) Where the tank main stats where changed to dictate your defense/dps, and we began to see the downward trend in reliance on ten/parry/block stats since stacking them hard didn't really offer much value. But stacking STR (when you could) CRIT, DET, DH took the front see when agro was a problem up until shadowbringers anyway.

You can go FULL TEN and still hold agro as the main tank, but then high end duties predominantly require you to meld for attack over defense. It's kind of weird that tanks need to bring the pain more then being a fortress of defense. I suppose nobody likes playing with gimp dps even if it is a tank. Big numbers go BRRRR.

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Originally Posted by SpiralMask

tanky bonus effects (damage reduction and increased healing), which i've found is helpful for the non-WHM healers and my massive hp pool.

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I want to add that the "increased healing" does NOT apply to healing effects OUTSIDE of your own healing! That means that most healing does NOT get buffed, and is neither helpful for non-WHM healers nor WHM healers. It only buffs your very own healing i.e. WAR Equilibrium and Storm's Path combo heal, nothing more, nothing less.

I know the description is very confusing and misleading actually. I just wanted to clear the misunderstanding.

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Originally Posted by ArianeEwah

I want to add that the "increased healing" does NOT apply to healing effects OUTSIDE of your own healing! That means that most healing does NOT get buffed, and is neither helpful for non-WHM healers nor WHM healers. It only buffs your very own healing i.e. WAR Equilibrium and Storm's Path combo heal, nothing more, nothing less.

I know the description is very confusing and misleading actually. I just wanted to clear the misunderstanding.

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WHAT!?
That's nutty.
If it had better breakpoints I could see it being nice on DRK, or PLD comps with no healer, but man this really changes how I see the stat.
Thanks for the info.

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Originally Posted by ArianeEwah

I want to add that the "increased healing" does NOT apply to healing effects OUTSIDE of your own healing! That means that most healing does NOT get buffed, and is neither helpful for non-WHM healers nor WHM healers. It only buffs your very own healing i.e. WAR Equilibrium and Storm's Path combo heal, nothing more, nothing less.

I know the description is very confusing and misleading actually. I just wanted to clear the misunderstanding.

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didnt know that. i mean... at least it's still decent for WAR with all the selfheals i guess. that's quite the blow.

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Originally Posted by SpiralMask

didnt know that. i mean... at least it's still decent for WAR with all the selfheals i guess. that's quite the blow.

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The problem with WAR is that you would have to check if the extra healing from TEN outweights the dps loss from not melding DET. Because both Storm's Path's and Nascent Flash's healing are also increased by DET since their healing is based on your damage output.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

Because both Storm's Path's and Nascent Flash's healing are also increased by DET since their healing is based on your damage output.

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You are right about Nascent Flash's healing scaling with damage output, but Storm's Path has its own cure potency. Nevertheless, DET increases healing output, too, so at the end of the day, the increase from DET is still greater than from TEN.
At least afaik...
The description about DET says: "Affects the amount of [...] HP restored by healing spells." That is already incorrect. It also increases healing abilities!
Whereas TEN description: "Affects the amount of [...] HP restored. The higher the value, [...] the more HP restored[...]." Even tho it seems like those 2 description state different effects, that is not the case. The only difference in both stats are the tiers / scaling by point efficency.
i.e. +660 DET increases damage and healing output by 2.6%; +660 TEN increases dmg and healing output, and reduces dmg taken by 2%

But there WILL be TEN on gear (and thus BiS) eventually, and then the only time you WANT to meld TEN is when you reach gain more or the same as if you would meld DET (or DH). That's because of stat tiers. Iirc the current (still tenative) omni-tank BiS has some TEN melds instead of DET/DH melds.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

The problem with WAR is that you would have to check if the extra healing from TEN outweights the dps loss from not melding DET. Because both Storm's Path's and Nascent Flash's healing are also increased by DET since their healing is based on your damage output.

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Due to how multipliers work, the difference between +3k Crit, +3k Det over min and +3k Crit, +2k Det & +1k Ten over min is ~.75% less damage and potency based heals (i.e. heals like Storm's Path), a ~2.4% net increase for damage based heals (heals like Nascent Flash) and a 3% reduction in damage taken. As long as Determination and Tenacity are roughly equal you end up with a fairly significant increase in survivability at a minor cost in damage.

The biggest actual factors in Tenacity sucking is actually the fault of Crit outperforming both Determination and Tenacity by a wide margin. Crit, due to being factored twice into damage calculations, ends up having escalating returns on damage rather than diminishing returns. Going from +2k Crit to +3k Crit is a bigger damage increase than +1k Crit to +2k Crit. It starts out worth less per equivalent amount of points but quickly ends up worth more per amount than all the others.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

Due to how multipliers work, the difference between +3k Crit, +3k Det over min and +3k Crit, +2k Det & +1k Ten over min is ~.75% less damage and potency based heals (i.e. heals like Storm's Path), a ~2.4% net increase for damage based heals (heals like Nascent Flash) and a 3% reduction in damage taken. As long as Determination and Tenacity are roughly equal you end up with a fairly significant increase in survivability at a minor cost in damage.

The biggest actual factors in Tenacity sucking is actually the fault of Crit outperforming both Determination and Tenacity by a wide margin. Crit, due to being factored twice into damage calculations, ends up having escalating returns on damage rather than diminishing returns. Going from +2k Crit to +3k Crit is a bigger damage increase than +1k Crit to +2k Crit. It starts out worth less per equivalent amount of points but quickly ends up worth more per amount than all the others.

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Yeah this rings true for me. 3k of any stat has been the test method, and it really starts to soft cap there it seems. 3k CRIT you hit like a truck with an RNG aspect of how high the number can go. 3k DET your auto attacks and non crit/DH are much stronger. 3k DH and your hitting 25% harder more often with no RNG of the outcome damage number.

Downside to all of this is CRIT/DH usually win out, and some classes just aren't designed for DH (warrior) and I would favor DET as my secondary, and SKS to around 1500 if I can muster the slots. But when I switch to Paladin my numbers are gimped as paladin benefits greatly from DH. This is a problem I think SE needs to work, and maybe I'm in a small group of people that have all tanks maxed and play them all depending on what mood i'm in. Warrior is still my main and i'm glad I switched from paladin. I like paladin fine and was my main from 2.0 to 5.0, I just wanted something new and fell in love with warrior especially after 5.35 changes.

Maybe they should decouple the defensive and offensive effects so they can scale separately, as long as it divides well. Like, imagine if every 16 Tenacity gave DR, while every 32 gave bonus damage/healing. Would kind of make the defensive difference stand out; since it's still not as much damage as another meld many would still discount it, but at least it might appeal to players running DF and stuff.

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Originally Posted by Sqwall

It's kind of weird that tanks need to bring the pain more then being a fortress of defense. I suppose nobody likes playing with gimp dps even if it is a tank.

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Imagine an impenetrable fortress tank with no attack power in PvP. You would probably just ignore them and kill off the healers first and then the glass cannon dps. Tanks soak damage for others, not for themselves. It doesn't make sense to expect a tank to get attacked in place of someone else unless they're a genuine threat.

This should not be a trade off. Tanks should get both offensively and defensively stronger with better gear.

For Tenacity to be good, it would require another stat to not be so good. If DET were to change to a DPS only stat, with Tenacity getting its benefits for tanks, you'd see a lot more Tenacity. This would also drive down the amount of variance though, between Crit, Tenacity, and Skill Speed. Though there will always be 2 stats to rule them all in this game, nothing short of a complete change in how all substats work would change that.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

For Tenacity to be good, it would require another stat to not be so good. If DET were to change to a DPS only stat, with Tenacity getting its benefits for tanks, you'd see a lot more Tenacity. This would also drive down the amount of variance though, between Crit, Tenacity, and Skill Speed. Though there will always be 2 stats to rule them all in this game, nothing short of a complete change in how all substats work would change that.

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Not completely. Multiplicative bonuses actually should mean that the more stats you have at similar totals the higher your net damage multiplier. 3 x1.05 multipliers (x1.157625 net) is actually better than a x1.10 and a x1.05 multiplier (x1.155 net). If 3 stats have roughly the same damage multiplier at the same stat totals an optimal build would want roughly equal amounts of each stat.

A problem occurs when you have one stat grow far faster than the others and 1 stat that grows significantly slower rather than all growing in parallel. If you have one stat that grows from a x1.089 multiplier at +2k to a x1.135 multiplier at +3k, one stat that grows from a x1.04 to a x1.08 between +1k and +2k and a third stat that grows from x1.035 to x1.07 between +1k to +2k. With +2k in all 3 stats you end up with a x1.258 net multiplier, a x1.258 at +3k/+1.5k/+1.5k and a x1.268 at +3k/+2k/+1k. This is why Tenacity is sacrificed for Crit.

If Crit had a multiplier that grows linearly (because only 1 of either Crit Rate or the Crit Multiplier increases) rather than an exponentially the damage substats would be more balanced.

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Originally Posted by Sqwall

It's kind of weird that tanks need to bring the pain more then being a fortress of defense. I suppose nobody likes playing with gimp dps even if it is a tank. Big numbers go BRRRR.

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This is due to mitigation being a binary answer. If I can survive the outgoing damage or tankbuster, throwing more mitigation and extra healing has no impact. For reference sake, I have nearly 220,000 HP on BiS Warrior. Eden's Promise autos me for roughly 40k and her TB hits for 120k per hit or thereabouts. Said buster happens only three times in an eight minute fight. At what point would Tenacity's 5% additional mitigation matter when I have multiple uses of Vengeance, Thrill, Rampart, Nascent/Raw, Equilibrium and Holmgang to play around with? In fact, I don't need to be healed for the first TB at all. I can literally Thrill+Equilibrium and heal for over 100k because those CDs will do nothing otherwise. They're completely free.

All of this is why Tenacity is, effectively, worthless. When I have that many options at my disposal, taking 2,000 less damage every auto just doesn't matter.

The only thing they have to do to make tenacity be great again is make it so direct hit doesn't work for tanks. That is literally all they got to do. :p

I mean why use tenacity when you can just stick tons of direct hit and get a better result? There's always going to be stat priorities and it's never going to be a situation where Determination and Tenacity are even. One is going to be king of the hill over the other and you'd only ever go for the latter if the primary one is filled out. Right now it's something like STR > CRIT > DET > DH for warriors. If DH wasn't there than it would be STR > CRIT > DET > TENACITY which makes more sense to me.

The problem is its either ueseless or too important, there is no inbetween simply because of how the stat and jobs work. Honestly they are better off removing the stat completely and just building it in the jobs naturally.

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Originally Posted by Derio

The problem is its either ueseless or too important, there is no inbetween simply because of how the stat and jobs work. Honestly they are better off removing the stat completely and just building it in the jobs naturally.

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The issue with Tenacity is that the role it plays is already being played by the defense of the armor we are wearing as well as vitality and because of the enrage timers, the game prioritizes DPS statistics over any other. I mean they can have tenacity boost defenses for tanks while still boosting damage, just you'd need to fill out CRIT and DET first on warrior before considering it. If they boosted damage on it to beat DET, the only thing that happens is now CRIT and TENACITY take priority and DET is the filler.

the only way to make multiple substats "relevant" is by changing the function in which they give damage boosts to make it non-linear.

take skill speed for example, people like to say its useless but in reality its one of the most important stats, up to a certain point. If crit had diminishing returns after a certain threshold then we wouldn't just slot all crit all the time always

i personally dont think its a problem that tenacity is the worst stat, because if all substats are linear, there will ALWAYS be a worst stat. however if all substats were not linear, that would change how gearing works for all jobs in the game, and people would probably instead focus on hitting certain stat tiers. i dont think either is particularly more or less interesting than the other.

as for the defensive aspect of tenacity, tanks already require barely any healing as is. i dont know how much tankier a tank can get to make a difference when healers already never use gcd heals on tanks in the first place. very often im sitting on two stacks of essential dignity because autoattacks tickle even in savage. i think the only fight in the game where i worry about tanks hp is TEA

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Originally Posted by QooEr

i personally dont think its a problem that tenacity is the worst stat, because if all substats are linear, there will ALWAYS be a worst stat. however if all substats were not linear, that would change how gearing works for all jobs in the game, and people would probably instead focus on hitting certain stat tiers. i dont think either is particularly more or less interesting than the other.

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We are and arguably were in a position where beyond haste effects, substats don't really matter. Sure, one's "better" than the other for damage, and they jostle around breakpoints, but you could wipe out every stat and give us a speed/potency inverse ratio for adjustment and things probably wouldn't change from a gearing standpoint.

Just let us pick the GCD we want and adjust potencies automatically.

I don't see substats getting more complicated though. Discussions in that vein tend to dry up quickly and with little to show for it.

I use Ten/Det on my Tanks because I have developed extreme PTSD from the multiple times healers have let me down. I have been in situations where I am literally at death's door, pop my Invul and STILL don't get a single heal at all and end up dying as a result. I love tenacity because it makes my self heals stronger and mitigates more damage so I can survive longer on my own should I get grouped with bad healers in DF. IDGAF about optimizing my Tanks, it'll be meaningless if i die anyways so I'll be a low DPS tank if it means peace of mind.

I know I'm in the minority here but I am 100% fine with Tenacity as it.

Tenacity and piety are progression stats and there’s no way to change that without fundamentally changing what they do or what substats do overall. They’re stats that give you a little buffer when you don’t quite know the fight yet but once you do and you’ve optimised your healing and mitigation they’re no longer needed in favour of damage.

The fact is the majority of players aren’t going to go to that level of optimisation outside of world first parties because fights are easy enough to learn once all the guides are out that you don’t need to.

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Originally Posted by Cabalabob

Tenacity and piety are progression stats and there’s no way to change that without fundamentally changing what they do or what substats do overall. They’re stats that give you a little buffer when you don’t quite know the fight yet but once you do and you’ve optimised your healing and mitigation they’re no longer needed in favour of damage.

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Neither needs to be. Part of Tenacity's problem is that a 5% mitigation increase does not covert to 5% less healing actions needed and Piety suffers from high cost healing and damage spells not being a significant enough MP drain that increased MP regen does not increase damage by transitioning to higher cost heals.

In theory, a high tenacity build would increase party dps by allowing healers to cast more offensive spells so the party gear composition question would become how much Tenacity do we need to maximize healer dps. The problem with this is that the Healer offensive/healing casts per minute ratio is heavily skewed towards the offensive side.

With Piety, the theory is that with more Piety you would go from casting "Cure 1, Cure 1, Cure 1, Glare, Cure 1, Cure 1, Cure 1, Glare" when you have ~400 MP regen per tick to "Cure 2, Cure 2, Glare, Glare, Cure 2, Cure 2, Glare, Glare" when you have ~700 MP regen per tick. Due to how healing requirements are tuned and how little the MP drain is in fights we pretty much start at the later and Piety becomes more a question of how many Rezs do I need before I go OoM.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

In theory, a high tenacity build would increase party dps by allowing healers to cast more offensive spells so the party gear composition question would become how much Tenacity do we need to maximize healer dps. The problem with this is that the Healer offensive/healing casts per minute ratio is heavily skewed towards the offensive side.

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That's not the only question you would need to ask in a theoretical tenacity build though. You would also need to know if maximizing healer dps outweights the dps lost from tanks going full ten.
But yes, it is entirely theoretical because in reality you're most likely not saving your healer any GCDs by going full ten.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

That's not the only question you would need to ask in a theoretical tenacity build though. You would also need to know if maximizing healer dps outweights the dps lost from tanks going full ten.

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The dps loss from going full ten is actually pretty low. Outside of Direct Hit shenanigans, the dps difference between a Tenacity heavy build and a Crit heavy build is about 2%.

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But yes, it is entirely theoretical because in reality you're most likely not saving your healer any GCDs by going full ten.

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True with the current extremely low gcd heal requirements. At a 3:21 healing:offensive healer base gcd use per minute ratio a 5% reduction in healing required only 1 gcd is going to be freed up rough every 7 minutes. With a more sane 12:12 ratio base, a 5% reduction in healing required frees up roughly 1 of the healing gcds for offensive use every 2 minutes and the amount freed up by tenacity only gets better as the healing:offensive gcd ratio favors healing.

It's strange that DPS jobs don't also have 'progression stats'. They just become progressively more effective with better gear.

I'm all for in-game trade-offs that require you to make decisions on the fly. But 'progression-only' stats just seem to be one more way of punishing the very roles the devs are desperate to see better represented.

I don't see why Ten and Piety can't be the stat to stack, rather than Crit.

One of the issues I see with Enix's tank/heal design is they seem to be of the mindset that simplifying tanks/heals and trying to put as little burden on them as possible is the way to go. The result is a role that hits like a wet noodle, is dull to play and that doesn't feel like it has much impact on the fight. If instead, tanks/heals hit quite hard, had an engaging toolkit and were easy to pick-up but had depth and the tools to pull off some impressive saves in the hands of a great player, that would be far more enticing to pick up. I'd much rather pick up a potential juggernaut than a blue noodle dps that doesn't need effort.

Ten and Piety are part of this mindset. They don't have any real impact. They don't have good damage. They don't want you to need to stack them. They're just lukewarm, bland and simple like the rest of the role.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

I don't see why Ten and Piety can't be the stat to stack, rather than Crit.

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Would you care to elaborate on what you'd want them to do?

What tenacity does is fine. It's the scaling that needs to change. Piety should cover a similar range of functions (i.e. attack potency, healing potency, and MP regeneration rate).

Now if you want people playing these roles to pick these stats, there are a couple of things that you can do.

1) Make these into Primary Attributes, and just standardize the stats across all roles. In other words:
Tanks: Tenacity (Attack, Defense, HP restoration/Lifesteal)
Healers: Piety/Mind (Attack, Healing, MP regeneration)
Melee: Strength (Attack)
Ranged: Dexterity (Attack)
Magic: Intelligence (Attack)

Secondary Stats (Everyone): Crit, DH, Determination, Haste

Why do this? Well two reasons. Primary Attributes scale with ilevel, so better gear scales up all of your essential tank functions. Second, it decouples tank attribute progression from melee dps, so you don't have to worry about tanks having to gain Strength more slowly than Melee DPS to keep us from outperforming and embarrassing them, Heavensward style.

2) Make all Secondary Properties have diminishing returns. What do I mean by this? The opposite of how Crit gains value. Ideally, you want it to be such that you gain less of a dps boost per additional point of any individual stat. This encourages you to diversify your stats, rather than dumping everything that you can into Crit, followed by the next most effective stat only when you have no more room left for Crit. So even if we go back to that idea of Tenacity and Piety providing the 'best' damage boost for tanks and healers respectively out of your secondary stats, the gain drops off as you invest in it, suddenly making say Crit and Det better. Now you start investing in those but the relative gain falls off, meaning that you gain more from stacking Tenacity.

And note that none of this actually impacts the relative dps that tanks and healers do compared to other roles, so long as you can control the relative weighting of each Primary Attribute. Your Secondary Properties are a drop in the ocean by comparison.

Smart players are not going to want to invest into a 'defensive only stat'. We've seen this, it was called Parry. They are also not going to want to invest in a defensive stat that provides inferior offensive gains to its counterparts. They certainly will invest in a defensive stat that provides better offensive gains to its counterparts, even if that only occurs at set stat intervals. The main thing that everyone wants out of a stat system is to gain progressively stronger offense with better gear. We don't want dummy stats like Parry and Accuracy that occupy equipment slots without providing an offensive benefit. We also don't want inferior offensive options like Tenacity is now, even if it comes with a swiss army knife of helpful secondary functions that you can live without. Nobody likes feeling shortchanged on their gear upgrade.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Now if you want people playing these roles to pick these stats, there are a couple of things that you can do.

1) Make these into Primary Attributes, and just standardize the stats across all roles. In other words:
Tanks: Tenacity (Attack, Defense, HP restoration/Lifesteal)
Healers: Piety/Mind (Attack, Healing, MP regeneration)
Melee: Strength (Attack)
Ranged: Dexterity (Attack)
Magic: Intelligence (Attack)

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You are not picking your primary stats, so other than changing the name of Strength and Mind I'm not seeing how this accomplishes anything.

Strength already deals with attacks, defense already scales with iLvl.

For tanks, all potency based actions interact with attack power, it already scales up your ability to heal with actions, and already scales up your ability to drain health (Health gain from dealing damage).

Tanks no longer gain strength more slowly, they just operate on a different damage formula, one of the suggestions that tanks specifically asked for in Stormblood's Accessory megathread. This just effectively changed the two leading coefficients in the formula (IE: Instead of 1.0 x Str, it's .66 x 1.5 Str).

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Secondary Stats (Everyone): Crit, DH, Determination, Haste

2) Make all Secondary Properties have diminishing returns.

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I don't really have any issue with this. It's just a more refined version of what we have now.

Likewise, just tacking on MP generation to Mind seems pointless. You will not start out an expansion at a disadvantage just so you can not have that problem midway through (Or wherever the normalization is set to occur).

It seems like we can sum up this entire request with just: Remove Tenacity, Remove Piety, make Direct Hit Universal, let Direct Hit apply to non-damage numbers.

No, I'm saying that's what it should do. If your ilvl goes up, your percentage lifesteal (or self-sustain/shielding alternative) should go up independent of the damage that you do, with diminishing returns, of course. I also think that you need some degree of transparency with all this (i.e. when you select a piece of gear for comparison, you should be able to see what those stat boosts are translating into in terms of damage per second, self-healing percentage, damage reduction, and so on).

I mean, you can hand out self-sustain and mitigation options like Bloodbath and such to dps jobs, but at the end of the day, tanks need to be the ones who see proportionately higher gains to those abilities with gear. Much like you get to see higher dps gains with gear than tanks do.