Consumable arrows

I'm just curious what the general opinion is regarding consumable arrows versus non-consumable arrows.

Personally I'd prefer non-consumable arrows and will give a few reasons why below but purpose of the thread is more what do you think. Also my own idea of non-consumable arrows would be you'd equip a quiver and it would serve like an accessory i.e. it would just have its own status but not be consumed.

My own reasons;

Currently arrows are just stronger or weaker than each other there's no variance in terms of this type of arrow is better for *. It's basically a linear upgrade system but instead of one off costs it's a constant drain on gil.

We're the only job to have a gil sink linked to our actual attacks and I just question why. We aren't the only job that can attack at range, blm can attack at range but their 'ammo' is replenished automatically at no cost to them and we don't have the highest damage as a justification either.

The last reason is more a counter argument to the idea of 'realism'. It might be realistic for ammo to be consumed however, personally I value gameplay choices over realism (not everyone is of the same mindset and that's understandable) and so realism is just a lower priority for me as opposed to things like balance and 'game logic' (previous arguments such as why one class has a constant gil sink whereas another doesn't.). Also realism kind of goes out of the window for me to a degree when we perform a back flip to use wide volley. Wide Volley animation is cool but unrealistic is my point here.

Anyways enough from me, discuss.

I was for the realism option of recovering arrows,

But, gotta say, A one of cost makes me *And my Coins* fairly happy.
Personally I'd at least like to see Varients of arrows, like poison stats and silence (Kabura arows? <.<)
That is, an extra stat for a "Gil Sink" as you put it.

sum up since I kinda rambled on into obscurity.

Consumable arrows: Would like to see some with extra bonuses like poison/Silence
Non-Consumable: Just generally like this idea.

Its tough to change it at this point though. Arrows are a staple of leveling for goldsmiths and woodworkers. Who are in turn utilizing materials from botonist and miners. Removing consumable arrows would not nessiccerily be detrimental to the economy, but it certainly would be an annoying complication for some time to DoL/H for a good while.

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Originally Posted by Coglin

Its tough to change it at this point though. Arrows are a staple of leveling for goldsmiths and woodworkers. Who are in turn utilizing materials from botonist and miners. Removing consumable arrows would not nessiccerily be detrimental to the economy, but it certainly would be an annoying complication for some time to DoL/H for a good while.

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Goldsmiths make pretty much all the jewelry in the game and carpenters make a lot of weapons. Besides they could still make arrows just the non-consumable quiver version which would be prolly more expensive to make and buy but wouldn't be consumed.

Dunno about stuff for DoH and DoL to make dictating how a class should be. Also I imagine carpenters will have a lot more relevance once we finally get housing with actual furniture.

Honestly I could be for this. I was a Ranger in XI and a Bard/Archer in XIV and I have to say that the constant cost of arrows over other classes is absolutely absurd. If a quiver item was added that was equip-able to replace consumable arrows, it would still need to be crafted and could be the replacement to arrows. Again, higher initial cost, but also other benefits.

Quivers could add stats other than just additional damage and if you consider status arrows or elemental arrows, it could also allow for more than two DoH to contribute to their creation. Which adds a different boost to the economy. It would also allow for the potential to make +1s and maybe even make them meldable, thus increasing the materia economy.

So it goes without saying, that there could be great potential in something like this, though it would cause a temporary slump as DoH adjust to making these instead of arrows.

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Originally Posted by Wevlum

Goldsmiths make pretty much all the jewelry in the game and carpenters make a lot of weapons. Besides they could still make arrows just the non-consumable quiver version which would be prolly more expensive to make and buy but wouldn't be consumed.

Dunno about stuff for DoH and DoL to make dictating how a class should be. Also I imagine carpenters will have a lot more relevance once we finally get housing with actual furniture.

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I love seeing folks with classes at level 0, explain how those who have then at level 50 are wrong in what they say about them or how something will effect them.

Anyway, they are phasing alot the goldsmith portion of the arrowns out anyway, they are making the new arrows in a manner that the arrow head comes from blacksmith now instead of goldsmith. Now GDS/BLS share responsobility for the making of materials for arrow heads. Arrowheads ae a simple recipe, and fill level gaps. Thus, they are a staple for leveling the classes at points. Whatthat has todowith thre making of jewelry and weapons I will never know.

All I know is I can see it effecting 3 DoH and 2 DoL all of which I have leveled to some extent and one or so I haveapped. So I find it interesting that a poster having those same classes at 0 debating it.

All that being said, from the perspective of bard being my main, I am for the non-consumables idea.

I just wish i could get all the wasted arrows I shot at Chimera back.

GG pocketbook.

Consumable Arrows are not just about a Gil Sink. Having Consumable Arrows allows for Archers to have Significantly Higher Damage and Future access to Addition skills with Status Effect Arrows. If you make Arrows unlimited you cannot have things like Sleep Arrows, Drain arrows or Fire arrows. Also, the average Damage of every arrow would need to be reduced. Gil for Damage is the Concept. You can greatly increase your Damage by purchasing higher quality arrows or you can get a full stack for 2k and not take the dmg bonus.

Your not supposed to grind with Cobalt Arrows.

Level carpenter if you plan on using bard/arc alot :) easy to level DoH nowadays anyways..

would like to keep consumable arrows, but need more of an adventage over other weapons then. like magical arrows or stat arrows. or an archer/bard ability to turn them into such arrows. as of now arrows are only a gil sink

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Originally Posted by Kiote

Consumable Arrows are not just about a Gil Sink. Having Consumable Arrows allows for Archers to have Significantly Higher Damage and Future access to Addition skills with Status Effect Arrows. If you make Arrows unlimited you cannot have things like Sleep Arrows, Drain arrows or Fire arrows. Also, the average Damage of every arrow would need to be reduced. Gil for Damage is the Concept. You can greatly increase your Damage by purchasing higher quality arrows or you can get a full stack for 2k and not take the dmg bonus.

Your not supposed to grind with Cobalt Arrows.

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The problem is our significantly higher damage as you put it is not that. It's average compared to the other classes and yet we have to PAY to keep that damage up. And one could argue that there are throwing weapons for other classes, but I have yet to meet a player that uses them. And even then that would be added damage on top of their non-consumable weapon damage.

If you ask me, this argument is invalid since we don't seriously out damage all other jobs who do not have to constantly sink gil just to attack. I mean, if I swapped out for Warped Arrows, which is still paying money to do any damage on Bard/Archer since my bow is worthless without it. And even when I do, my damage drops fairly significantly where Dragoon, Warrior, Monk or Black Mage do not have to continually purchase a consumable to alter their DPS.

Now, if you made it where the quiver only allow for so many shots before Reload would have to be used, then it could balance out. I just do not see how you claim that we can't have arrow types with unlimited ammo with my Quiver idea. So a Fire Quiver allows for Fire Arrows, Sleep Quiver for Sleep Arrows, Etc.

And honestly without gear swaps while engaged, which I doubt we will see in this game, situational arrows won't be super effective. The only way this could be done effectively is with a skill or spell that enchants the next show with X effect. Something similar to the fist abilities of Pugilist/Monk.

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Originally Posted by Coglin

I love seeing folks with classes at level 0, explain how those who have then at level 50 are wrong in what they say about them or how something will effect them.

Anyway, they are phasing alot the goldsmith portion of the arrowns out anyway, they are making the new arrows in a manner that the arrow head comes from blacksmith now instead of goldsmith. Now GDS/BLS share responsobility for the making of materials for arrow heads. Arrowheads ae a simple recipe, and fill level gaps. Thus, they are a staple for leveling the classes at points. Whatthat has todowith thre making of jewelry and weapons I will never know.

All I know is I can see it effecting 3 DoH and 2 DoL all of which I have leveled to some extent and one or so I haveapped. So I find it interesting that a poster having those same classes at 0 debating it.

All that being said, from the perspective of bard being my main, I am for the non-consumables idea.

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...So unless I have them at 50 I'm not allowed to talk about them, K

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Originally Posted by Findel

The problem is our significantly higher damage as you put it is not that. It's average compared to the other classes and yet we have to PAY to keep that damage up. And one could argue that there are throwing weapons for other classes, but I have yet to meet a player that uses them. And even then that would be added damage on top of their non-consumable weapon damage.

If you ask me, this argument is invalid since we don't seriously out damage all other jobs who do not have to constantly sink gil just to attack. I mean, if I swapped out for Warped Arrows, which is still paying money to do any damage on Bard/Archer since my bow is worthless without it. And even when I do, my damage drops fairly significantly where Dragoon, Warrior, Monk or Black Mage do not have to continually purchase a consumable to alter their DPS.

Now, if you made it where the quiver only allow for so many shots before Reload would have to be used, then it could balance out. I just do not see how you claim that we can't have arrow types with unlimited ammo with my Quiver idea. So a Fire Quiver allows for Fire Arrows, Sleep Quiver for Sleep Arrows, Etc.

And honestly without gear swaps while engaged, which I doubt we will see in this game, situational arrows won't be super effective. The only way this could be done effectively is with a skill or spell that enchants the next show with X effect. Something similar to the fist abilities of Pugilist/Monk.

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Won't go into too much detail since Findel pretty much nailed it but... we don't do the highest damage so the only thing we're paying for, since our damage is average, is the safety of range...which blms and whms enjoy without paying gil.

Also "Also, the average Damage of every arrow would need to be reduced." it wouldn't really. The game is balanced around the jobs/classes going 'all out'. When they balance things they probably expect the bard to be using the best ammo and for any content that matters bards will be using the best ammo or they won't be playing as bard. When you gear bard for combat you make sure you have enough cobalt arrows to last the entire fight, so the end result is you're behaving the same as the other DDs (i.e. a consistent damage level) but you're paying per shot. No good bard is going to take 20 cobalts, use them then switch to warped is what I'm suggesting.

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Originally Posted by Coglin

I love seeing folks with classes at level 0, explain how those who have then at level 50 are wrong in what they say about them or how something will effect them.

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Says someone whose BTN is 31, whose CRP is 23, and whose BSM is only 13. Please, continue to explain through your vast personal experience just how these issues affect people with the relevant classes at 50.

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Originally Posted by Wevlum

...So unless I have them at 50 I'm not allowed to talk about them, K

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Nope. Just referencing that if you making jewelry is all that GLS isabout you clearly are clueless about the class. I explained to you how it would be effected by the change bassed on my experience and you posted some off kilter opinion. I never said you can't post about anything. Your simply trying to put word in my mouth for what reason? Just because I posted a slight disagreeance?

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Originally Posted by Teia

Says someone whose BTN is 31, whose CRP is 23, and whose BSM is only 13. Please, continue to explain through your vast personal experience just how these issues affect people with the relevant classes at 50.

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Whats that got to do with a conversation about GLS there genious? Is 31/23/13 not higher then 0? Oh wait, that doesn't matter because GLS was being discussed, and the effects of removing recipies to it. Had you actually read the thread, and wern't just trolling it, you might no this. Had you not been purely trolling it, perhaps you would have actually added something to the conversation.

Last I checked Coglin, arrows no longer require arrowheads to be synthed and if you are referring to using dated synths for exp, this is going away anyhow and is a pointless argument. The only craft this would effect is carpenter as quivers would obviously be a leather worker synth.

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Originally Posted by Findel

The problem is our significantly higher damage as you put it is not that. It's average compared to the other classes and yet we have to PAY to keep that damage up.

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Arc/Brd on average does 10k more damage than any other melee class in every boss fight when using Cobalt Arrows. That is a fact. On top of that, you can hit enemies from anywhere on the map without moving, a Huge advantage.

High End Arrows are for Dungeons and Boss Fight. No one should be burning through 999 Arrows on any of those endeavors.

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And honestly without gear swaps while engaged, which I doubt we will see in this game, situational arrows won't be super effective.

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I'm fairly positive you can in fact swap ammo while engaged. If you cannot, you will be able to in the future. That will very quickly be addressed when Status/Elemental/Damage Type Arrows are Implemented.

Personally, I'm of the opinion that if ammunition does not have any special effect or reason to use different types, there's no reason for it to be a consumable. Maybe an equippable item if they want to keep the progression through the levels but not as a consumable.

Arrows right now work just like any other equipment, they do the exact same thing but just get stronger as you go up. There's no special arrows, no coatings, nothing to differentiate them aside from damage.

If there were special arrow types that could be used to achieve some sort of status effect or incap then I'd be all for consumable arrows. As it stands though there's no need and on top of that it would be quite difficult. Arrows count as equipment and we can't change equipment mid-battle. There's no system in place for ease of changing ammo types like there is in Monster Hunter or Gods Eater Burst.

Edit:

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Originally Posted by Kiote

Arc/Brd on average does 10k more damage than any other melee class in every boss fight when using Cobalt Arrows. That is a fact. On top of that, you can hit enemies from anywhere on the map without moving, a Huge advantage.

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Lol that's pretty funny, calling BS on that one. Monks, Dragoons and Warriors should be able to outdamage a Bard on most fights. Moogle is one of the exceptions since there's a lot of moving around and Bard doesn't have to move, that's about it. So you're saying that Bard can get the highest damage on Ifrit or any of the bosses from AV or CC compared to equally skilled/geared melee DDs?

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Originally Posted by Arcell

Personally, I'm of the opinion that if ammunition does not have any special effect or reason to use different types, there's no reason for it to be a consumable. Maybe an equippable item if they want to keep the progression through the levels but not as a consumable.

Arrows right now work just like any other equipment, they do the exact same thing but just get stronger as you go up. There's no special arrows, no coatings, nothing to differentiate them aside from damage.

If there were special arrow types that could be used to achieve some sort of status effect or incap then I'd be all for consumable arrows. As it stands though there's no need and on top of that it would be quite difficult. Arrows count as equipment and we can't change equipment mid-battle. There's no system in place for ease of changing ammo types like there is in Monster Hunter or Gods Eater Burst.




Lol that's pretty funny, calling BS on that one. Monks, Dragoons and Warriors should be able to outdamage a Bard on most fights. Moogle is one of the exceptions since there's a lot of moving around and Bard doesn't have to move, that's about it. So you're saying that Bard can get the highest damage on Ifrit or any of the bosses from AV or CC compared to equally skilled/geared melee DDs?

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I wonder if we could have both...quivers for non-consumable arrows that are purely about the damage and consumable arrows for arrows that have special effects. Maybe we could even keep the status effect arrows in the waist slot or something and have a skill to switch between the two ammo slots?

That said... weaponskills are generally how classes currently do additional effects and maybe the archer/assassin class will take this role since enfeebling, buffing and DD seems like quite a lot for one job. Basically with the dev team changing and just the general changes happening to ffxiv I wonder if the current dev team are even planning for archer/bard to have arrows with special effects like sleep/poison. It'd be nice to get a dev response on this.

Well I mean in FFTA Archers/Snipers had a lot of enfeebling shots (blind, pacification, bind, etc...). They could certainly go that route again.

Another option would be something like how Guild Wars preparations work. You hit the skill and, for example, your arrows now inflict poison for the next 30 seconds. They also had burn dmg arrows, interrupt arrows, explosive arrows and the like which were all done through applying a preparation.

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Originally Posted by Coglin

Whats that got to do with a conversation about GLS there genious? Is 31/23/13 not higher then 0? Oh wait, that doesn't matter because GLS was being discussed, and the effects of removing recipies to it. Had you actually read the thread, and wern't just trolling it, you might no this. Had you not been purely trolling it, perhaps you would have actually added something to the conversation.

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Wut, I say wut, boy:

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Originally Posted by Coglin

... Now GDS/BLS share responsobility for the making of materials for arrow heads. ...
All I know is I can see it effecting 3 DoH and 2 DoL all of which I have leveled to some extent and one or so I haveapped. So I find it interesting that a poster having those same classes at 0 debating it.

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Originally Posted by Coglin

Its tough to change it at this point though. Arrows are a staple of leveling for goldsmiths and woodworkers. Who are in turn utilizing materials from botonist and miners. Removing consumable arrows would not nessiccerily be detrimental to the economy, but it certainly would be an annoying complication for some time to DoL/H for a good while.

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So if you were only discussing GSM, what's all this talk about stuff that isn't GSM?

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Originally Posted by Teia

So if you were only discussing GSM, what's all this talk about stuff that isn't GSM?

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this makes my point exactly. If you have to ask this question you have no business being part of the conversation.

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Originally Posted by Coglin

this makes my point exactly. If you have to ask this question you have no business being part of the conversation.

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Well as Findel said, arrowheads aren't even used in arrows anymore. If you're talking about dated recipes, they'll be gone soon enough anyway so that's kind of a non-issue.

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Originally Posted by Arcell

Well as Findel said, arrowheads aren't even used in arrows anymore. If you're talking about dated recipes, they'll be gone soon enough anyway so that's kind of a non-issue.

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They still make the items that replaced arrow heads in the recipe. That seems very related to me.

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Originally Posted by Coglin

They still make the items that replaced arrow heads in the recipe. That seems very related to me.

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Yeah, an ingot which are all used in dozens of other recipes. I think they'll find other things to use them on, your argument is pretty weak.

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Originally Posted by Arcell

Yeah, an ingot which are all used in dozens of other recipes. I think they'll find other things to use them on, your argument is pretty weak.

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Whats the fact that its used in other recipies have to do with anything? The fact that items used to make arrow heads previously, were used to make other items, nulls your point right there. So now your claiming that removing the most consumed consumable in the game would not effect the DoH that make it, and the DoL that farm the items for it? Talk about "weak arguements"

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Originally Posted by Coglin

Whats the fact that its used in other recipies have to do with anything? The fact that items used to make arrow heads previously, were used to make other items, nulls your point right there. So now your claiming that removing the most consumed consumable in the game would not effect the DoH that make it, and the DoL that farm the items for it? Talk about "weak arguements"

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Whether or not DoH will be affected is kinda irrelevant. Question is should 1 aspect of a couple of DoH/DoL dictate how a discipline of *WAR* class should be played. It's a gameplay and class design issue, DoH and DoL aren't going to become redundant via the removal of consumable arrows especially if the same jobs are used to make the non-consumable quivers.

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Originally Posted by Coglin

Whats the fact that its used in other recipies have to do with anything? The fact that items used to make arrow heads previously, were used to make other items, nulls your point right there. So now your claiming that removing the most consumed consumable in the game would not effect the DoH that make it, and the DoL that farm the items for it? Talk about "weak arguements"

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Arrows are:

1 branch
1 ingot
1 feather

So this affects Botanist, Miner, Carpenter and Blacksmith.

Botanist has a wide variety of other things it can gather for money and/or crafting. Culinarian and Alchemist benefit from Botanists, as well as a wide variety of other things for Carpenter.

Miner is in the same situation, but for Armorer, Blacksmith and Goldsmith.

Blacksmith makes the ingots and those have a huge range of uses outside of the arrows.

Carpenter makes the arrows but I don't think many will miss arrows if they were no longer consumable. They are one of a very wide variety of things that Carpenters could make money off of.

All the classes that it would affect all have a very wide range of other items they could make money and/or level off of. They won't miss the arrows and they'll find other things to make even if they did, it would hardly affect them. Nothing you said nulls my point, you just failed to see the bigger picture. Not surprising.

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Originally Posted by Arcell

Arrows are:

1 branch
1 ingot
1 feather

So this affects Botanist, Miner, Carpenter and Blacksmith.

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Your just wrong. Armorer and Goldsmith also make ingots for arrows. You appear to want to argue about classes and recipies when your not even familiar with them.

Both Ingots and arrows use the sime materials from miners to make. they are both made in one synth. Its laughable that you keep making failing attepts to claim they are so different in this situation.

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Originally Posted by Arcell

Well as Findel said, arrowheads aren't even used in arrows anymore.

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And you both are 100% sure arrowheads do not exist at this time in arrows in this game?......interesting, that explains alo.

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Originally Posted by Arcell

They are one of a very wide variety of things that Carpenters could make money off of.

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Right. Lets compare the most consumable item in the game to everything else.

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Originally Posted by Wevlum

Whether or not DoH will be affected is kinda irrelevant.

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Says the guy without those classes. Just because you blurt some foolish statement like this out, by all means does not make it true. Its highly relavent to thse classes that use it. Its by miles, the most consumable item in the game. Don't sit there on your making these foolish claims that classes don't matter just because you don't play them.

For me, the best part about archer vs mages is the ability to maintain range and keep dps up without having to sit around and wait for animation to complete. But it really would be nice to have elemental arrows or specific status arrows again. However, I'm sure once we have that, brd/arc would start complaining about how they're expected to carry 20 different types of arrows etc etc.

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Originally Posted by Coglin

Your just wrong. Armorer and Goldsmith also make ingots for arrows. You appear to want to argue about classes and recipies when your not even familiar with them.



Says the guy without those classes. Just because you blurt some foolish statement like this out, by all means does not make it true. Its highly relavent to thse classes that use it. Its by miles, the most consumable item in the game. Don't sit there on your making these foolish claims that classes don't matter just because you don't play them.

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I'm still a consumer who knows how to work mooglebox. I can see what the recipes are and I can see what each craft is capable of making.

What I was saying is that the battle mechanics for a discipline of *WAR* class shouldn't be dictated by discipline of hand or land. That's like saying whms should have their shroud of saints removed and blms should have their convert removed because it means alchemists don't sell as many ethers. Those same classes could still be used in the creation of the non-consumable arrows. I don't understand why you think the entire worth of like 5 classes rests on the sale of arrows which are used by *one* class.

Also you don't have botanist, crp, armorer or blacksmith. Why are you allowed to comment and I'm not?

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Originally Posted by Coglin

Your just wrong. Armorer and Goldsmith also make ingots for arrows. You appear to want to argue about classes and recipies when your not even familiar with them.

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Actually all the ingots for non-dated arrows can be made by Blacksmiths. However the same argument could be used for Goldsmith and Armorer. There are so many other things that those ingots are used for on Goldsmith and Armorer that they won't miss it. Maybe you should read up before you argue about things you clearly don't know about.

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Originally Posted by Coglin

Both Ingots and arrows use the sime materials from miners to make. they are both made in one synth. Its laughable that you keep making failing attepts to claim they are so different in this situation.

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The ingots can be use for a wide variety of things outside of arrows. The blacksmith won't miss much because arrows don't exist as a consumable item. Your argument would only hold if ingots were only used for arrows.

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Originally Posted by Coglin

And you both are 100% sure arrowheads do not exist at this time in arrows in this game?......interesting, that explains alot.

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They won't be for long. They're dated recipes and people should get used to not using them since they'll be removed soon enough. Also no one would buy dated arrows so it doesn't affect their income.

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Originally Posted by Coglin

Right. Lets compare the most consumable item in the game to everything else.

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We're comparing items that crafters can make and level off of. I'd say any recipe is fair game.

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Originally Posted by Coglin

Says the guy without those classes. Just because you blurt some foolish statement like this out, by all means does not make it true. Its highly relavent to thse classes that use it. Its by miles, the most consumable item in the game. Don't sit there on your making these foolish claims that classes don't matter just because you don't play them.

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As a gatherer, I agree with Welvum. There goes your entire argument. It is an item that is quickly consumed however you make 333 of them with 1 synth. They are probably the easiest item to make in large volumes these days. Botanists and Miners won't miss the business from arrows.

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Originally Posted by Wevlum

Also you don't have botanist, crp, armorer or blacksmith. Why are you allowed to comment and I'm not?

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Because as much as he's talking about BTN, CRP, ARM, and BSM, apparently the only class that matters in this discussion is GSM.

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Originally Posted by Wevlum

Also you don't have botanist, crp, armorer or blacksmith. Why are you allowed to comment and I'm not?

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No one said your not allowed to comment. What I said was

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Originally Posted by Coglin

I love seeing folks with classes at level 0, explain how those who have then at level 50 are wrong in what they say about them or how something will effect them.

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As you can see, what I clearly said was not to attept to tell me how it will effect me and what we do and do not do. your the only one saying you can't comment, I never said that.

Your wrong about what I do and do not have class wise as well. I do have botonay into the 30s and carpenter in the mid 20s, both of which I am leveling at this time. I may notbe an "old hand" at arm/bls but Ihave every class at least to level 10. so it seems a bit comical that a poster with all of those classes at literally 0 wants to debate them. Although I do see you have BoT to level 14. So at least in that capacity you are somewhat familiar with DoL.

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Originally Posted by Arcell

Actually all the ingots for non-dated arrows can be made by Blacksmiths. However the same argument could be used for Goldsmith and Armorer. There are so many other things that those ingots are used for on Goldsmith and Armorer that they won't miss it. Maybe you should read up before you argue about things you clearly don't know about.

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Yes, I am well aware of who can make what ingot, you sure have a knack for stating the obvious. As I do not invest my time at this point in arm/bls as much at this point, it was not relavent to my personal position.
But to tell us what we will and will not miss is a bit of pressumtuous ignorance.

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Originally Posted by Arcell

The ingots can be use for a wide variety of things outside of arrows. The blacksmith won't miss much because arrows don't exist as a consumable item. Your argument would only hold if ingots were only used for arrows.

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None of that changes the fact that your attepting to justify to 5 classes, why they should have the most consumed consumable in the game, relative to them, removed. Are you saying you want to claim my perspective is invalide simply because some of the recipe items can be used else where? That is almost laughable.

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Originally Posted by Arcell

As a gatherer, I agree with Welvum. There goes your entire argument. It is an item that is quickly consumed however you make 333 of them with 1 synth. They are probably the easiest item to make in large volumes these days. Botanists and Miners won't miss the business from arrows.

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Again you pressume to tell us as gatherers, how we will and wil not feel about this. From a gatheres perspective, I am telling you your wrong. Your perspective does not apply to everyone.

I find it rather comical that you're using the classes that make eq as a justification for what affects the class that actually has to *use* the arrows. Paladins should have no impact on shields because 4-5 other jobs are involved in making shields.

Also I don't think you should be telling level 50 crafters and gatherers like Arcell how they will or won't feel.

I wanted to debate archer itself but you made it about crafters/gatherers claiming how they're affected by a change to archer is more important than how archers are affected.

All the money I ever spend is on arrows, which is kind of annoying, but still I'm fine with it :)
It's good for the crafters and the economy, and I also think it's fair.
Yes, BLM can cast without consuming any ammo, but BLM also runs out of MP very fast.
Once their MP are gone, they are totally helpless and useless.
Archers on the other hand can just keep on shooting unless they forgot to bring enough arrows to a fight..which should never happen ;)

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Originally Posted by Atoli

All the money I ever spend is on arrows, which is kind of annoying, but still I'm fine with it :)
It's good for the crafters and the economy, and I also think it's fair.
Yes, BLM can cast without consuming any ammo, but BLM also runs out of MP very fast.
Once their MP are gone, they are totally helpless and useless.
Archers on the other hand can just keep on shooting unless they forgot to bring enough arrows to a fight..which should never happen ;)

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True however BLMs can just stand still to regain MP, as well as have Bards sing or use some of their own MP regen skills. Archers can't do that with arrows.

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Originally Posted by Coglin

Yes, I am well aware of who can make what ingot, you sure have a knack for stating the obvious. As I do not invest my time at this point in arm/bls as much at this point, it was not relavent to my personal position.
But to tell us what we will and will not miss is a bit of pressumtuous ignorance.

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You keep saying "we" but I think you mean to say "I". Claiming that your opinion applies to other Goldsmiths is a bit presumptuous. Honestly, Goldsmiths have the least to do with this argument out of all the classes. They make one ingot that is used for arrows, Mythril, that's it. Bronze, Iron, Steel and Cobalt are all made solely by Armorers and Blacksmiths. However with your logic, since I have Blacksmith and Armorer well into their 20s, my opinion here is more valid than yours.

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Originally Posted by Coglin

None of that changes the fact that your attepting to justify to 5 classes, why they should have the most consumed consumable in the game, relative to them, removed. Are you saying you want to claim my perspective is invalide simply because some of the recipe items can be used else where? That is almost laughable.

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Most consumed item in the game, yes. Highest volume of creation in the game, also true. It balances out. Also I'd say at this point food items may be consumed more, proportionately. One synth makes 333 arrows, so 3 synths to a stack of 999. That's a lot of items for only 3 items used. I'm claiming that your argument holds little value because by losing out on the arrow creation, crafters and gatherers aren't losing out on much. The ingots can be used elsewhere so Blacksmiths and Armorers could still create them for the purposes of income and leveling.

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Originally Posted by Coglin

Again you pressume to tell us as gatherers, how we will and wil not feel about this. From a gatheres perspective, I am telling you your wrong. Your perspective does not apply to everyone.

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Again, there you go with that "us" nonsense. Start learning to speak for yourself and let others do the same. From a gatherer's perspective I'm telling you that you are wrong. Your perspective does not apply to everyone.

Also you should probably start bringing up some facts to support your argument. All you're doing is telling me that my opinion is wrong. I've at least brought some elements to consider to the table.

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Originally Posted by Arcell

You keep saying "we" but I think you mean to say "I". Claiming that your opinion applies to other Goldsmiths is a bit presumptuous. Honestly, Goldsmiths have the least to do with this argument out of all the classes. They make one ingot that is used for arrows, Mythril, that's it. Bronze, Iron, Steel and Cobalt are all made solely by Armorers and Blacksmiths. However with your logic, since I have Blacksmith and Armorer well into their 20s, my opinion here is more valid than yours.

Did you eat alot of paint chips as a child?


Most consumed item in the game, yes. Highest volume of creation in the game, also true. It balances out. Also I'd say at this point food items may be consumed more, proportionately. One synth makes 333 arrows, so 3 synths to a stack of 999. That's a lot of items for only 3 items used. I'm claiming that your argument holds little value because by losing out on the arrow creation, crafters and gatherers aren't losing out on much. The ingots can be used elsewhere so Blacksmiths and Armorers could still create them for the purposes of income and leveling.

Thats just your opinion. Some disagree with it. You keep attempting to convince us that because you claim an arguement has little value that its fact.

Again, there you go with that "us" nonsense. Start learning to speak for yourself and let others do the same. From a gatherer's perspective I'm telling you that you are wrong. Your perspective does not apply to everyone.

Why? It was okay when you did it. just following suit with you.

Also you should probably start bringing up some facts to support your argument. All you're doing is telling me that my opinion is wrong. I've at least brought some elements to consider to the table.
I have as many facts as you. I have yet to tell you your opinion is wrong. Thats what you keep doing.

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Go back and re-read the thread. You seem to be quit confussed about who said what and when.

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Originally Posted by Arcell

True however BLMs can just stand still to regain MP, as well as have Bards sing or use some of their own MP regen skills. Archers can't do that with arrows.

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There regen of MP is limited in battle. Especially solo.
But yeah bards can aid in MP replenishment, very much like DoH can replenish a bards arrows.

So again you typed out a lot without really saying anything. Why is this a true detriment to anyone, Goldsmiths especially? You didn't really refute that claim, you just asked if I ate paint chips as a kid. Hardly an actual defense for your argument.

Refute the argument that Goldsmiths have little to do with this thread. Goldsmiths only make ONE type of ingot used for arrows, out of five. Goldsmiths aren't even able to make the other four. Goldsmiths have many other recipes that they can level on and make money off of. Why are arrows so important to them?

You keep saying that they are the most used item in the game and yet you refuse to acknowledge that they are also the item with the highest production volume in the game. Refute that, I dare you.

You have as many facts as me? Show them then. Start posting actual numbers and real arguments and maybe I'll take you seriously for a second. You have yet to post any kind of real info supporting your argument.

You're right a DoH can support a Bard in replenishing arrows. So, show of hands here, who has a DoH with them when they go into dungeons, Primal fights, or any end-game content that simply follows them around and gives them arrows? Anybody? No, didn't think so. Meanwhile Bards are a common part of party setups in end-game content, more likely to have one around at any given time.

So seriously, convince me that this is an actual issue for DoL/H. Convince me that losing arrows as a consumed item will be a drastic detriment to them. Show me how it would so adversely affect Goldsmith because honestly, I'm seeing them lose a SINGLE source of people buying Mythril ingots among a great many. If you can't do this then your argument really doesn't hold any merit. And don't come back with "I don't have to prove anything to you" or "It's so obvious I shouldn't have to explain it." If you can't explain it in detail, don't bother posting.