(5.0 Spoilers) Who is Emet talking about in this scene?

It was brought up in a conversation, that the dialog of Emet-Selch as sees us heading towards Il Mheg in regards to “Then again, with a soul such as that...” he is actually talking about Ryne/Minfillia. It was said in French and Japanese that it’s obvious he is using gendered terms and pronouns to the person he’s referring to (she/her regardless of the WoLs gender). I had always been under the impression given his abilities to distinguish souls, that he was talking about the WoL. Can anyone confirm this? It makes me wonder if I’d been interpreting other dialog the wrong way.

Oh, that's interesting... I'm by no means fluent in French but...

FRENCH TEXT DUMP

(soupire)... Et moi qui croyais Vauthry trop indolent pour mobiliser son armée...
Tout sera à refaire si une guerre éclate à cause de ces cha-mail-le-ries.
L'exarque du Cristal... Comment s'est-il débrouillé pour faire venir (l'héroïne\le héros) du monde primitif?
Ici aussi, nous allons devoir nous coltiner (cette empêcheuse\cet empêcheur) de tourner en rond!?
(soupire)...
Et comme si ça ne suffisait pas, la porteuse de cette âme l'accompagne.
Hum, qui sait? Ce revirement de situation pourrait nous offrir une alternative à l'af-fron-te-ment.

And using my rudimentary skills and google translate it comes down to basically:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Emet-Selch

[sigh] I thought Vauthry was too lazy to mobilize his army. Everything will have to be redone if he causes a war because of this bickering. How did the Crystal Exarch bring the Hero (or Heroine!) of the Source here? Am I going to have to distract this nuisance (gendered) here too!? [sigh] And if that wasn't enough... the carrier of this soul accompanies them. ...Who knows, maybe this could be used to avoid a confrontation...

---

Very heavily paraphrased, but the "carrier of this soul" gender doesn't change in French, and there's at least 2 instances of gendering for the WOL in his speech. One of which is then followed up with the "carrier of this soul" accompanying the gendered WOL... so, yeah they seem to be separate. Not to mention "la porteuse" is definitely a female carrier of the soul—and there's no flag to change it to male. I would bet money that the French script is saying the soul he's interested in is Minfilia's.

Disclaimer: It's been years since I've done anything with French.

For good measure I'll add German, English, and Japanese here too:
ENGLISH TEXT DUMP:

To think that mountain of indolence still had the energy to unleash his hounds...
Even the most pointless of conflicts may alter a world's course... And now the plan has gone awry.
But how...? How did the so-called Crystal Exarch bring the hero of the Source to the First?
As if I didn't have enough on my hands already...
(SIGH)
Then again...with a soul such as that...
Mayhap there is another way. One which does not require bloodshed...

GERMAN TEXT DUMP:

Hach! Wer hätte gedacht, dass dieser Vauthry tatsächlich seine Truppen ausschicken würde!
Ein Krieg könnte meinen schönen Plan über den Haufen werfen. Ich werde mir etwas Neues überlegen müssen.
Und dann noch dieser Kristall-exarch. Wie hat er (die Heldin\den Helden) aus dem Ursprung überhaupt hierher gebracht?
Soll (sie\er) uns hier jetzt auch noch ins Handwerk pfuschen?
Hach ...
Obwohl ... ich wittere da ein gewaltiges Potenzial.
Wenn es wirklich so ist ... gibt es vielleicht doch noch einen Weg, das große Blutvergießen zu vermeiden.

JAPANESE TEXT DUMP:

ああ厭だ……。
ヴァウスリーに、軍を仕向けるほどのやる気が残っていたとは。
どんな馬鹿らしい争いであれ、戦が起きれば、世が動く。
まったく……これじゃ計画の練りなおしだ。
あいつ……水晶公、か。
いったいどうやって、原初世界の英雄を呼び寄せた？
あの英雄も、どれだけ私たちの邪魔をしたら気がすむんだ！
はぁ…
……しかも、あの魂の持ち主ときた。
ならば……。
殺し合う以外の道もある……か？

When a gender difference is present (only in German & French) it isn't attached to owner of the soul best I can tell.

Man that leaves me so confused lol

That is pretty bizarre. Off the top of my head, the only other time he even shows any interest in young Minfilia is in the lead-up to the return to Amh Araeng, wherein he endorses her decision.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cereza

Man that leaves me so confused lol

---

I hope you mean regarding the actual script and not my post since I noticed an error in it pretty late, lol! (Me saying "carrier" isn't gendered, but it is; it's just always female regardless of the player's gender.)

Ok so that would imply that yes, he is referring to Ryne? Don’t worry I confuse quite easily lol

That’s why I thought it was weird too. like why would he make note of that...because it’s odd maybe? D:>

The Japanese text looks to imply Emet is talking about the WoL? Like he brings them up and immediately goes..oh..it has their soul too, maybe we don’t have to kill each other?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cereza

Ok so that would imply that yes, he is referring to Ryne? Don’t worry I confuse quite easily lol

---

There is no other reasonable explanation I can think of. The soul he's talking about here seems to be Minfilia's. Whoever's carrying the soul is feminine. Always. Who the Hero of the Source is varies by your character's gender.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cereza

That’s why I thought it was weird too. like why would he make note of that...because it’s odd maybe? D:>

---

My memory lately is pretty bad in regards to the narrative order of Shadowbringers! But it's entirely possible he's just once again pointing out that Source-Minfilia's soul is wholesale within Ryne... hence why he says "carrier of that soul." Minfilia's soul is certainly special enough to take note of having been the Word of the Mother, after all.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rocl

There is no other reasonable explanation I can think of. The soul he's talking about here seems to be Minfilia's. Whoever's carrying the soul is feminine. Always. Who the Hero of the Source is varies by your character's gender.



My memory lately is pretty bad in regards to the narrative order of Shadowbringers! But it's entirely possible he's just once again pointing out that Source-Minfilia's soul is wholesale within Ryne... hence why he says "carrier of that soul." Minfilia's soul is certainly special enough to take note of having been the Word of the Mother, after all.

---

My confusion with that is, would Emet have even recognized Minfillias soul if he had never seen her before that point?

The reason I used to think he was talking about the WoL was because he would’ve seen ours before.

I guess I am overlooking the whole Word of ya Mother part. If as speculated they originally were Venat, he probably would notice that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cereza

My confusion with that is, would Emet have even recognized Minfillias soul if he had never seen her before that point?

---

Remember that the timelines are weird. Emet-Selch had been on the First for a while by the time we arrive—he helped create Vauthry, so it's likely he had been mucking around long enough to see at least a few generations of Minfilia before Ryne.

Is it possible the (carrier) term in French has no gender neutral equivalent? I remember I translated some dialog a while back during some scenes talking about my female WoL, but switching to male terms/pronouns in some cases when translated to English.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rocl

Remember that the timelines are weird. Emet-Selch had been on the First for a while by the time we arrive—he helped create Vauthry, so it's likely he had been mucking around long enough to see at least a few generations of Minfilia before Ryne.

---

Oh that’s true, that helps to clear things a bit.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cereza

Is it possible the (carrier) term in French has no gender neutral equivalent? I remember I translated some dialog a while back during some scenes talking about my female WoL, but switching to male terms/pronouns in some cases when translated to English.

---

There are definite male and female versions of "carrier." It could be either "le porteur" or "la porteuse" in this case, and if I'm remembering my lessons correctly if the attempt was to be neutral or an unknown gender it'd probably be rendered "le porteur"

german translation (skipping vaultry part):

"And then the crystal exarch. How did he bring wol here from the source anyway?
Will WoL Interrupt our plans here as well?
Sigh ...
Although... I sense an enormous potential
If it is really it (or like this) ... maybe there is a way to avoid the bloodshed"

it's actually quite different. doesn't sound like he is talking about a person. just how the WoL being around could have benefits

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rocl

There are definite male and female versions of "carrier." It could be either "le porteur" or "la porteuse" in this case, and if I'm remembering my lessons correctly if the attempt was to be neutral or an unknown gender it'd probably be rendered "le porteur"

---

Very interesting, French seems quite difficult lol

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Starkbeaumont

german translation (skipping vaultry part):

"And then the crystal exarch. How did he bring wol here from the source anyway?
Will WoL Interrupt our plans here as well?
Sigh ...
Although... I sense an enormous potential
If it is really it (or like this) ... maybe there is a way to avoid the bloodshed"

it's actually quite different. doesn't sound like he is talking about a person. just how the WoL being around could have benefits

---

See here it seems like he’s referring to the potential of the soul he noticed in the WoL to work in his favor...

Of course that wouldn’t explain away the gendered way he says so in French..

*rips hair out*

Two opposing lines of thought.

First, he's referencing Minfilia's soul. Could be seeing the Word of the Mother traits, or Venat in her. Or he could be recognizing that fact that hers soul functions similar to an Ascians and believes that could be the start of a common frame of reference between the WoL's group and himself.

Second, he's recognizing the WoL's souls as possibly the 14th member of the Convocation and that they were originally female.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Deusteele

Two opposing lines of thought.

First, he's referencing Minfilia's soul. Could be seeing the Word of the Mother traits, or Venat in her. Or he could be recognizing that fact that hers soul functions similar to an Ascians and believes that could be the start of a common frame of reference between the WoL's group and himself.

Second, he's recognizing the WoL's souls as possibly the 14th member of the Convocation and that they were originally female.

---

Well we know the gender of the ancient he knew was whichever gender our WoL is so it can’t be that. He must just be referencing Ryne, but I’m not sure why that wouldn’t be more clearly stated in English that it’s her in that group of people he’s talking about.

It may just be that the line is a leftover from an orphaned plot thread, and the English localization tried to smooth it over so it wouldn't be noticed while other languages kept it in.

In Japanese they refer to Nael can Darnus without gendered language. They knew they wanted Nael to be a woman, but translation teams didn't get the memo. In the English version they were referring to Nael as a man, so when people go to fight her in the coil of Bahamut trials players thought Bahamut had turned Nael into a woman.

What I'm trying to get at is: as interesting as looking at the French translation is, I'm not sure we can go to other languages for a fair answer. At best we can get hints about what a different team thinks Emet might have meant.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ItMe

In Japanese they refer to Nael can Darnus without gendered language. They knew they wanted Nael to be a woman, but translation teams didn't get the memo. In the English version they were referring to Nael as a man, so when people go to fight her in the coil of Bahamut trials players thought Bahamut had turned Nael into a woman.

What I'm trying to get at is: as interesting as looking at the French translation is, I'm not sure we can go to other languages for a fair answer. At best we can get hints about what a different team thinks Emet might have meant.

---

That’s something I hadn’t considered...it would explain why people read into the dialog differently depending what language they played.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rosenstrauch

It may just be that the line is a leftover from an orphaned plot thread, and the English localization tried to smooth it over so it wouldn't be noticed while other languages kept it in.

---

That seems just as possible too, I was just so confused when the person I was talking to said it was about Ryne I thought...huh? But why? Lol

In Japanese it's fairly clear that he's talking about a second person, not the WoL.

"しかも、あの魂の持ち主ときた" - "Moreover, [the WoL] has come together with the owner of that soul"

It's the "ときた" ("to kita") here that means "come together with".

Hiragana is awful. と doesn't always have to mean "with" or "in addition to", it can also be used as a spoken quotation mark of sorts, encapsulating the prior statement. Also, きた in hiragana has the same literal meaning as 来た, but an informal meaning along the lines of "so that finally happened."

So that line from Elidibus is actually more of an exasperated, "Of course [the WoL] would have that soul, on top of all the other s[kupo]t I have to deal with."


Which is consistent with what we already (sorta) learned from Emet-Selch.

That makes more sense to me. I was thinking, why would he comment on Rynes soul when it should be us that he suddenly recognizes? We know he’s been on the First for some time, so he should already recognize the soul Ryne carries, as I’m sure that wasn’t the first time seeing a young girl with that soul as the Oracle.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fenral

Hiragana is awful. と doesn't always have to mean "with" or "in addition to", it can also be used as a spoken quotation mark of sorts, encapsulating the prior statement. Also, きた in hiragana has the same literal meaning as 来た, but an informal meaning along the lines of "so that finally happened."

So that line from Elidibus is actually more of an exasperated, "Of course [the WoL] would have that soul, on top of all the other s[kupo]t I have to deal with."


Which is consistent with what we already (sorta) learned from Emet-Selch.

---

Not to get into a Japanese fight, but I don't think I'd interpret this the same way. If the と here is a quote marker then it leaves the prior sentence (しかも、あの魂の持ち主; "Moreover, the bearer of that soul") without a verb and doesn't really parse grammatically. The quote marker would pretty much always need a verb in front of it. You're probably right about the idiomatic きた versus 来た, but that doesn't really meaningfully change the parse as referring to someone else, I think. For what it's worth, the French translation, with the inclusion of the verb "accompagner / to accompany", lines up with the literal reading as well.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HamiltonCalder

Not to get into a Japanese fight, but I don't think I'd interpret this the same way. If the と here is a quote marker then it leaves the prior sentence (しかも、あの魂の持ち主; "Moreover, the bearer of that soul") without a verb and doesn't really parse grammatically.

---

That's just Japanese, though. A lot of incomplete fragments strung together, basically forcing the listener to wait until the speaker has really finished. Besides, spoken English can hardly claim 100% grammatical precision.

The literally literal translation absent the surrounding context directly to the WoL would be along the lines of "and of course that soul is back in play," and could be referring to Minfilia's soul (hearkening back to 2.1), as the French and German likely assume. The English parses like he's referring to the Exarch, which makes even less sense as the sentence before seems to indicate he has no idea what the Exarch's deal is.

I think we can apply the MCKF handwave: each language is conveying correct information, even if it's not necessarily the same information.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fenral

That's just Japanese, though. A lot of incomplete fragments strung together, basically forcing the listener to wait until the speaker has really finished. Besides, spoken English can hardly claim 100% grammatical precision.

The literally literal translation absent the surrounding context directly to the WoL would be along the lines of "and of course that soul is back in play,"

---

Interesting, I'm admittedly only high-intermediate with Japanese but I came to something completely different. Strictly for the sake of educating myself (not calling you out, promise!), could you send me to like a usage guide or something for that interpretation of "~ときた"? I've never heard that formulation before and I'm interested.

I'm (mostly) self-taught over a period of literal decades of exposure that started from a young age, so I don't really have that sort of reference. But I do have Jisho! It won't help with improper grammar like this case, but it will at least show that I'm not completely delusional:


https://jisho.org/word/%E6%9D%A5%E3%82%8B

https://jisho.org/sentences/51866632d5dda7e98100525e

Hrm, I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one in that case. All good, translation is always more art than science anyway. Guess we'll see in a few weeks! :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fenral

German

---

unless there is more to it the german quote from page 1 doesn't refer to any kind of soul at all.
it's really just about the presence of our character

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Deusteele

Second, he's recognizing the WoL's souls as possibly the 14th member of the Convocation and that they were originally female.

---

This one's probably unlikely, given how surprised he is when he recognizes our soul during the final battle with him. At most, he might recognize the WoL's soul as an "old soul" - an Ancient's soul fragment - but to actually specifically see a Convocation member would make his shock later on pretty odd!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LineageRazor

This one's probably unlikely, given how surprised he is when he recognizes our soul during the final battle with him. At most, he might recognize the WoL's soul as an "old soul" - an Ancient's soul fragment - but to actually specifically see a Convocation member would make his shock later on pretty odd!

---

This is always going to be up in the air. Yes, he is shocked to see his friend briefly after Ardbert rejoins with us, but this could be the shock of seeing them as they once were rather than "OMG it was YOU the entire time!". To me his "Bah! A trick of the light. You are but a broken husk" line reads to me as a refusal to acknowledge his friend lives in some form. Because accepting us as "alive" would undermine his Ascian beliefs. I could also address his mention of us not remembering Amaurot when we are at the Ladder, which, to me at least, implies that he is sort of disappointed that we do not remember a shared experience. Yes, you could argue that it doesn't mean anything like that, but that is how the framing of the scene plays out to me.

Remember, the unsundered Ascians could raise up the shards of their fellow Convocation members, meaning they could recognise their souls. I believe Emet would have been able to easily recognise the soul of his friend. And if what Elidibus said is true, then ALL souls with the Echo are "old souls".