Remove melee throw weapon abilities?

With how the game is now, rushing and zerging through yawn fest dungeons and less tactical boss fights is there any reason to still have the throwing weapon ability for DRG, NIN and SAM(more so the level that they get the skills at)

The reason I bring this up is, DRG doesn't get their first aoe ability until level 40 and NIN does not get theirs until level 38! Both MNK and SAM get aoe skills fairly early on in there leveling kit. Why not instead of having the level 15 class quest be throwing weapons allow DRG and NIN to get there first aoe skills at that level? Most of the time I never see people use the throwing attack and at most it would be for more min maxers who only care about uptime.

Only if you let both monk and samurai have their first aoe at 15 too.

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Originally Posted by Ramura_Sono

Only if you let both monk and samurai have their first aoe at 15 too.

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I totally meant to say that in my post but forgot im sorry! ^^

While niche, these skills are pretty usefull when you are solo in deep dungeon or Eureka or even in the open world while doing your story or fates. You can pull single enemies with these skills without running into the pack and risk to pull all of them and get killed.

Let's not remove more things than have already been lost.

Signed, a Scholar main.

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Originally Posted by Videra

Let's not remove more things than have already been lost.

Signed, a Scholar main.

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replaced and or moved to a different level seems more ideal, yes.

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Originally Posted by Tint

While niche, these skills are pretty usefull when you are solo in deep dungeon or Eureka or even in the open world while doing your story or fates. You can pull single enemies with these skills without running into the pack and risk to pull all of them and get killed.

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Fair enough, at the very least a different level for them would be better

I don't think they should remove the "throw" or "melee-ranged" abilities but instead upgrade them.

They should not interrupt combo, that's already what makes them impractical.
In my opinion, they should be a combo, a 2 GCD combo filling gauge/resetting buff duration like current AoE combo actually do.

The tricky part would be to balance these abilities to make sure they're not a big loss, but strong enough to cover the moments where melees needs to take more risks than casters/ranged to just hit the boss.
It could be like the GNB's second combo, the first GCD is on an independant cooldown. Even with the current "Throw" not breaking combos, I doubt they would be used more than once every 30s.

I see two scenarios:
-Cooldown based GCD with a follow-up/special effect (Ex: Increase by XX potency your next melee GCD)
-Ranged Combo with gauge/self-buff refresh effect.

In any cases, ranged abilities for melees should not interrupt their combos.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

I don't think they should remove the "throw" or "melee-ranged" abilities but instead upgrade them.

They should not interrupt combo, that's already what makes them impractical.
In my opinion, they should be a combo, a 2 GCD combo filling gauge/resetting buff duration like current AoE combo actually do.

The tricky part would be to balance these abilities to make sure they're not a big loss, but strong enough to cover the moments where melees needs to take more risks than casters/ranged to just hit the boss.
It could be like the GNB's second combo, the first GCD is on an independant cooldown. Even with the current "Throw" not breaking combos, I doubt they would be used more than once every 30s.

I see two scenarios:
-Cooldown based GCD with a follow-up/special effect (Ex: Increase by XX potency your next melee GCD)
-Ranged Combo with gauge/self-buff refresh effect.

In any cases, ranged abilities for melees should not interrupt their combos.

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i wouldn't even make it so complicated, just buff them slighly/give some where non exist right now and make it so they don't interrupt combos, while where at it do the same for tanks, melees really don't need to have ranged rotations or whatever, just making it so that being out of range sucks slightly less than it does right now would totally do the trick

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

I don't think they should remove the "throw" or "melee-ranged" abilities but instead upgrade them.

They should not interrupt combo, that's already what makes them impractical.
In my opinion, they should be a combo, a 2 GCD combo filling gauge/resetting buff duration like current AoE combo actually do.

The tricky part would be to balance these abilities to make sure they're not a big loss, but strong enough to cover the moments where melees needs to take more risks than casters/ranged to just hit the boss.
It could be like the GNB's second combo, the first GCD is on an independant cooldown. Even with the current "Throw" not breaking combos, I doubt they would be used more than once every 30s.

I see two scenarios:
-Cooldown based GCD with a follow-up/special effect (Ex: Increase by XX potency your next melee GCD)
-Ranged Combo with gauge/self-buff refresh effect.

In any cases, ranged abilities for melees should not interrupt their combos.

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I think the fact that they do disrupt combo makes it a little more interesting as well as satisfying when you manage to finish a combo right before having to move away. It also give more value to the Skill Speed substat. I believe melee should still mostly be melee, they'd be half ranged if those throwing abilities didn't break combo and had a combo of themselves, it imo removes some of the charm of being a melee and I think you can expect an overall dps nerf to compensate for their ability to have no downtime at all without sacrificing anything.

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Originally Posted by SamRF

I think the fact that they do disrupt combo makes it a little more interesting as well as satisfying when you manage to finish a combo right before having to move away. It also give more value to the Skill Speed substat. I believe melee should still mostly be melee, they'd be half ranged if those throwing abilities didn't break combo and had a combo of themselves, it imo removes some of the charm of being a melee and I think you can expect an overall dps nerf to compensate for their ability to have no downtime at all without sacrificing anything.

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while i'm pretty sure square would just let this slide as "quality of life" just like a lot of other things that on paper shouldn't raise the potential of a class which in practice totally do buff a class at pretty much all percentiles this isn't so much about "losing nothing"

if you can do 100% damage in melee range or 50-75% of your damage while away from the boss you would still allways want to be close to the boss to maximize damage, that would not be "sacrificing nothing". problem is right now the ranged attacks melees (and tanks) have to offer are so weak, oftentimes its better to simply do nothing than to even use your ranged attack which is okay i guess, but at least as far as raids go it indeed makes them pretty redundant.

Could we just settle for, lets say, every job shoud have its ranged and aoe skill around 22 or smt?

I don't think there's a need to remove thrown skills, they have their own niche uses. I agree with the sentiment that they shouldn't break combos or at the very least that there should be instances where they don't break combos, such as Enhanced Enpi.

On the AOE topic, every DPS job should have at least one AOE skill by level 15 so they can enter Sastasha and use it to learn the proper place for AOE, and whatever their basic AOE loop is should be in place by level ~50. A gauge's AOE uses should be in play as soon as you get your gauge, or near where you get your gauge.

It's insane that Dragoon for example has it's second and third AOE steps at level 62 and 72 respectively. On top of Doomspike at 15 it should have Sonic Thrust at level 40 where it gets Doom Spike, the effect should be changed to "Refreshes Disembowel" and Coerthan Torment should be earned at level 54 with Blood of the Dragon.

I think every non-caster job needs a roadmap revamp when it comes to their skills and when they learn them.

There are mostly minor ones, but a few major ones that largely don't make sense, or hamper the enjoyment of leveling a job. Some abilities, particularly those that are only useful in a party, or in very niche cases you will not run into until higher end content, feel pretty bad to get during dry spells.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

I think every non-caster job needs a roadmap revamp when it comes to their skills and when they learn them.

There are mostly minor ones, but a few major ones that largely don't make sense, or hamper the enjoyment of leveling a job. Some abilities, particularly those that are only useful in a party, or in very niche cases you will not run into until higher end content, feel pretty bad to get during dry spells.

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*looks at pala gabcloser*

Every class should get one AoE at level 15.

To be honest, I think that instead of removing them, because they can have a lot of use, making sure that it's not an ability that you can use only if you finish a combo would be better. As an example, there's no reason why there is so much emphasis on boosting Enpi with Enhanced Enpi (using backdash to proc e.Enpi) while still having this ability interrupt melee combo. Enhanced Enpi is not even dps neutral in the first place, you lose kenki/dps by using it even when you don't break combo. Throwing Daggers, Spear Throw and Enpi should not interrupt combo, just like Meditation for monk doesn't cancel the form you're in. (Because Meditation was and still is the primary "short disengage" tool for monk anyway)

As for AoE, I think that the level you earn them needs to be standardized too. I mean... Even tanks don't have "standard" leveling curves. Some tanks will have an AoE combo really, really early, others will not until level 72 as an example. It's a bit identical for melee too, but I also think that it's also due to how strong those aoes are it will likely stay like that. Dragoon base AoE is kinda strong at low level. It's 170 potency at level 40, compared to the 100 potency aoe earned at level 26 by sam. Giving access to "too strong" aoes too early is a bad idea imo.
One thing that could be changed is maybe the ninja one, which you earn kinda late. Later than your flame ninjutsu in fact. Imo you could get it way earlier without disrupting the overall leveling flow of the job too much.

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Originally Posted by SamRF

I think the fact that they do disrupt combo makes it a little more interesting as well as satisfying when you manage to finish a combo right before having to move away. It also give more value to the Skill Speed substat. I believe melee should still mostly be melee, they'd be half ranged if those throwing abilities didn't break combo and had a combo of themselves, it imo removes some of the charm of being a melee and I think you can expect an overall dps nerf to compensate for their ability to have no downtime at all without sacrificing anything.

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There is zero interest in Piercing Talon were it breaking your combo makes it functionally worthless. It takes four uses for Piercing Talon to beat Full Thrust. And that isn't including the damage lost for breaking your combo. This is why it's actually better for Dragoons to do literally nothing than ever touch Piercing Talon. Even in E8S, which is absolutely brutal for melee, Dragoon will resort to their AoE combo or just do nothing since combos last 15 seconds.

All that aside, why would any of the Melee need a nerf? Even if they buffed Piercing Talon to say, 300 potency. It's still a damage loss, thus something you'll avoid. Of course, I'm also in the camp Range DPS shouldn't be taxed nearly as much (or really, at all). So buff them and it's all a wash.

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Originally Posted by SamRF

I think the fact that they do disrupt combo makes it a little more interesting as well as satisfying when you manage to finish a combo right before having to move away. It also give more value to the Skill Speed substat. I believe melee should still mostly be melee, they'd be half ranged if those throwing abilities didn't break combo and had a combo of themselves, it imo removes some of the charm of being a melee and I think you can expect an overall dps nerf to compensate for their ability to have no downtime at all without sacrificing anything.

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You're being sarcastic right? Tell me you're just trolling...

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

You're being sarcastic right? Tell me you're just trolling...

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The less conflict a kit has, the less interesting it is to make any choices within them.

Making something desirable to use is easy, but making it meaningful as well is where it gets difficult.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

The less conflict a kit has, the less interesting it is to make any choices within them.

Making something desirable to use is easy, but making it meaningful as well is where it gets difficult.

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I mean... The meaning and the goal is to prevent dps loss from forced downtime. I don't really see how you could do more meaningful than this.

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Originally Posted by Eliadil

I mean... The meaning and the goal is to prevent dps loss from forced downtime. I don't really see how you could do more meaningful than this.

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It's a balancing act between decision making and outcome.

Currently, using ranged options for melee is something you have to weigh. How long are you out of melee, where are you in the combo, how much potency is gained or lost?

While there is nothing wrong with empowering melee's ranged options, you have to consider what that does to the inherent goal that melee aim for, which is "stay in range of the thing". The more powerful the ranged option is, the less that goal matters.

It doesn't seem a glamorous thing, but getting that 'last GCD' feels great. it's classic tension and catharsis, and it simply doesn't happen on the Ranged jobs.

I think the point of giving melee jobs a ranged attack so early on is to give them the ability to tag mobs from a distance before they have a gap closer.

You have to consider that early level stuff isn't just for raiders and max-level players, but for new and casual players too. "This mob is so far away" is a valid concern for a melee that early on, which several of these tools are made to alleviate so they don't get frustrated and give up on the job until they can power level it.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

It's a balancing act between decision making and outcome.

Currently, using ranged options for melee is something you have to weigh. How long are you out of melee, where are you in the combo, how much potency is gained or lost?

While there is nothing wrong with empowering melee's ranged options, you have to consider what that does to the inherent goal that melee aim for, which is "stay in range of the thing". The more powerful the ranged option is, the less that goal matters.

It doesn't seem a glamorous thing, but getting that 'last GCD' feels great. it's classic tension and catharsis, and it simply doesn't happen on the Ranged jobs.

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Currently you don't have much reflexion for ranged attacks as a melee. In any case it's a dps loss to use it. Using it and breaking a combo just makes it a too big dps loss, as well as a time loss that you cannot afford on most jobs (you cannot drift GCDs on Sam, and restarting a combo on dragoon means that you'll often delay your chaotic thrust combo, which you do not want to happen because it's such a big damage loss). I don't play/know much about ninja so I can't really say, but they have mudras for downtime, just like monk has meditate or even Anatman which doesn't interrupt their current combo/action.

As a DRG or SAM, there is almost no thoughts on your ranged actions. You just completely unbind it on Dragoon, or use it on some really specific cases for Samurai which are almost impossible to plan.

Somebody earlier mentionned that this gives more incentive to SkS, but that's false also. Each fight would require different SkS tier because mechanics happens at a different time, so you'd have to get different gear sets or meld just to be worth it... But it would also completely wreck the rotations of the two jobs that needs a really "fix" GCD tier to line up their cooldowns (spoiler, it's the two that I mentionned right above :D). SkS would not fix the issue at all due to the current job design, so it's definitely not an option that you can or want to take. :)

I'd probably use SAM Yaten-Enpi religiously to get out of small AOEs or whatever if Yaten didn't cost Kenki.

I'm not at the stage where I can use Kenki reliably yet though as I'm still on level 50 content, but I imagine if Yaten didn't require resources it would make that combination useful enough that I'd use it. Even if it's only to look flashy. :P

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Originally Posted by RVallant

I'd probably use SAM Yaten-Enpi religiously to get out of small AOEs or whatever if Yaten didn't cost Kenki.

I'm not at the stage where I can use Kenki reliably yet though as I'm still on level 50 content, but I imagine if Yaten didn't require resources it would make that combination useful enough that I'd use it. Even if it's only to look flashy. :P

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I'm kinda against Yaten costing no Kenki at all, but maybe making Yaten/Gyoten cost 5 instead of 10, just to make Yaten/Enpi/Gyoten neutral in term of ressources. Tbh, this along with Enpi not breaking combos would make this a much more "feelgood" ability, and would also encourage peoples to use it as filler to set up properly the Tsubame burst. You could even lower the damage of Enhanced Enpi to not make it an option "too viable". While I doubt this will happen right now, since the devs seems to be satisfied with only changing Shoha, maybe this could happen for the next expac, seeing how we'll probably drift away from new abilities and go towards more new traits.

Don't really see the need for any melee or tank class to need to have a separate button just for ranged when any piece of everyone's 1-2-3 could just have increased range. Current ranged options exist to be less dps and combo breakers for melee's out of range. You can replicate that function by say put increased range on combo enders. They have reduced potency outside the combo so opening or spamming so a ninja using say aeolian edge instead of throwing dagger is functionally the same outside of the occasional instance you retreat while on step 2 of the combo. Even then those occasions could be a reward for proper timing or good play and would let the player feel better about not having to ruin a combo if they need to step back for a minute. Could argue that you learn your ranged attack earlier then your step 3 combo ender but why not just learn that sooner instead. It wouldn't unbalance anything that early and would give new players something that they would actually use alot sooner.

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Originally Posted by Nama

Don't really see the need for any melee or tank class to need to have a separate button just for ranged when any piece of everyone's 1-2-3 could just have increased range. Current ranged options exist to be less dps and combo breakers for melee's out of range. You can replicate that function by say put increased range on combo enders. They have reduced potency outside the combo so opening or spamming so a ninja using say aeolian edge instead of throwing dagger is functionally the same outside of the occasional instance you retreat while on step 2 of the combo. Even then those occasions could be a reward for proper timing or good play and would let the player feel better about not having to ruin a combo if they need to step back for a minute. Could argue that you learn your ranged attack earlier then your step 3 combo ender but why not just learn that sooner instead. It wouldn't unbalance anything that early and would give new players something that they would actually use alot sooner.

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While the idea is neat, it would be too much of a pain to actually put through, both in terms of animations (just imagine a monk punching somebody at 15y distance) and because if you happen to be unlucky in terms of SkS you're screwed.

Peoples get the idea that ranged attack for melee rewards "good timing" or whatever, but it doesn't. Every fight is scripted and will always repeat the same, no matter what. So let's say that you have an aoe that must be avoided at 2min15 into a fight, well this aoe will be there at every try. And what happens if your combo doesn't end at this moment ? Well you can't use a range attack because it breaks combo, or in your case because you're not doing your combo ender. So you basically can't use your range attack because you lose too much dps. And this happens at every try because a boss doesn't have random patterns. :rolleyes:

Then peoples say "well duh you just have to adapt your Skill Speed stat". But this you cannot do again, because each fight would require a different SkS tier because mechanics don't happen at the same time. So this would require just an absurd amount of materia melding between each fight of a raid tier, if not absurd amount of gear. Furthermore, since the beginning of 5.0 we all know that melees can't "choose whatever SkS they want" because they all have timings to play around, and not lining up these could potentially hurt your damage so much that you would be better just playing SMN/BLM at this point. :p

So just make Ranged attacks not break melee combo and this would solve the entire issue and make everyone happy, especially if the next savage tier is as "melee unfriendly" as the current one. :D

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Originally Posted by bass9020

The reason I bring this up is, DRG doesn't get their first aoe ability until level 40 and NIN does not get theirs until level 38!

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Ninja actually gets its first AOE skill at 35, just not the spammable skill till later. BUT the thing is even when some of these jobs get their AOE skill, it's still a DPS loss to use it until you've got something in the range of 5-6 enemies to hit, and in leveling dungeons, that doesn't happen as much.

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Originally Posted by SamRF

I think the fact that they do disrupt combo makes it a little more interesting as well as satisfying when you manage to finish a combo right before having to move away. It also give more value to the Skill Speed substat. I believe melee should still mostly be melee, they'd be half ranged if those throwing abilities didn't break combo and had a combo of themselves, it imo removes some of the charm of being a melee and I think you can expect an overall dps nerf to compensate for their ability to have no downtime at all without sacrificing anything.

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Melee wouldn't be half range if it didn't interrupt combos. Samurai has a ranged combo- Yaten > Enhanced Enpi, which I only use to avoid an AoE and to get enough Kenki to dash back in. It actually requires a little bit of skill to time it properly and keep max uptime. I don't use it if I know it'll interrupt a combo, though, as the loss of combo flow isn't worth a single 300 potency attack. It just gives us a nice tool to keep some uptime on the boss and raises the skill ceiling a bit.

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Originally Posted by Nama

Don't really see the need for any melee or tank class to need to have a separate button just for ranged when any piece of everyone's 1-2-3 could just have increased range. Current ranged options exist to be less dps and combo breakers for melee's out of range. You can replicate that function by say put increased range on combo enders. They have reduced potency outside the combo so opening or spamming so a ninja using say aeolian edge instead of throwing dagger is functionally the same outside of the occasional instance you retreat while on step 2 of the combo. Even then those occasions could be a reward for proper timing or good play and would let the player feel better about not having to ruin a combo if they need to step back for a minute. Could argue that you learn your ranged attack earlier then your step 3 combo ender but why not just learn that sooner instead. It wouldn't unbalance anything that early and would give new players something that they would actually use alot sooner.

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The idea could work with a trait that turns the ranged attack into the combo finisher when proc'd (Throwing Dagger becomes Aeolean Edge in this example)

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Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

The idea could work with a trait that turns the ranged attack into the combo finisher when proc'd (Throwing Dagger becomes Aeolean Edge in this example)

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And then you realize that ninja has two different finisher for the same combo, and you begin to wonder how Throwing Dagger can turn into two weaponskill at the same time... :D

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Originally Posted by Eliadil

And then you realize that ninja has two different finisher for the same combo, and you begin to wonder how Throwing Dagger can turn into two weaponskill at the same time... :D

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That could be fixed by having a second branch for the 2nd finsishier so instead of 123 and 124 it's be 123 and 145

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Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

That could be fixed by having a second branch for the 2nd finsishier so instead of 123 and 124 it's be 123 and 145

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So you want to add a new combo button so we can get rid of the button for the ranged attack?

And when you are on a tank and you need your ranged move to pull an add but the combo finisher says nope?

This whole idea is causing more problems than it solves.

Best change would be that the ranged moves don't interrupt combos and nothing more.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

There is zero interest in Piercing Talon were it breaking your combo makes it functionally worthless. It takes four uses for Piercing Talon to beat Full Thrust. And that isn't including the damage lost for breaking your combo. This is why it's actually better for Dragoons to do literally nothing than ever touch Piercing Talon. Even in E8S, which is absolutely brutal for melee, Dragoon will resort to their AoE combo or just do nothing since combos last 15 seconds.

All that aside, why would any of the Melee need a nerf? Even if they buffed Piercing Talon to say, 300 potency. It's still a damage loss, thus something you'll avoid. Of course, I'm also in the camp Range DPS shouldn't be taxed nearly as much (or really, at all). So buff them and it's all a wash.

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Okay then maybe an exception can be made for DRG or maybe some middle ground, I haven't leveld DRG myself so I can't comment on that. I just like the fact that you want to finish a combo before running off and would rather have ranged attacks not be something you'll just be spamming on impulse every time you move away, no matter your position on the combo, but rather something that's disruptive to your main rotation and needs to be considered before using. Most of my melee experience is with tanks though so maybe my preference isn't all that relevant to this topic.

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Originally Posted by SamRF

Okay then maybe an exception can be made for DRG or maybe some middle ground, I haven't leveld DRG myself so I can't comment on that. I just like the fact that you want to finish a combo before running off and would rather have ranged attacks not be something you'll just be spamming on impulse every time you move away, no matter your position on the combo, but rather something that's disruptive to your main rotation and needs to be considered before using. Most of my melee experience is with tanks though so maybe my preference isn't all that relevant to this topic.

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I understand what you're saying, however, keep in mind that while the basic rotation of a tank usually consist of 123 combo or eventually 124 sometimes as well, for a melee like dragoon or samurai, breaking combos is the equivalent of having to restart your whole rotation, because it delays a 8+ GCD rotation. As a dragoon you have to make sure that you can keep your dot up at all time, as well as your damage buff. Your rotation consist of a 10GCD loop that you cannot break because you risk losing either the dot or the damage buff if you're really unlucky. So breaking a combo here just means restarting the 10 GCD combo from the beginning. As a samurai this gets even worse, because by breaking a combo you delay a Midare, which is mandatory to proc Tsubame, your 1min burst. You don't delay it by one GCD however, you delay it by a full Midare rotation (9GCD), which can be really detrimental once you begin to look at party raid buffs.

Monk doesn't have this issue, but it doesn't suffer as much as the other melees due to meditation, just like Ninja can maybe plan a ninjutsu to avoid an aoe. But for the other two, the question isn't even there. You can't use your ranged attack because it messes everything.
Tbh, I would be surprised to see an actual opportunity present itself more than three time in the whole expansion for both jobs, and I don't see the devs planning a fight and thinking "oh what if we put an aoe there, so the melee can avoid it AND use their ranged attack for once ?"

Ranged attack is a dps loss on melees anyway. But just making the option available would be better than not having it at all.

Generally, I am against removing abilities. They can simply just not be placed on the hotbar.