Tanking Adjustments - PLD/WAR

Summary: The Warrior tank at the moment appears to be the best option for a tank in all encounters, it can hold aoe threat reliably, take damage effectively and dish it out to hold single target aggression with ease. Proposed below are changes which would make Paladin a more valued member of the team, without stealing the thunder of the mighty warrior.

The changes are not intended to make Paladin’s DD’ers, but to embody their described role as the cornerstone of the Party’s defenses. Also nothing suggested below I believe will ever be competitive with the might of a well played Dragoon, Monk , or Black Mage’s damage output, nor is that a desired feature of any true tank lover to be on a tanking class.

Please do not nerf Warriors to make Paladins more attractive! Some of the changes will help solo play while leveling/questing less of a headache as well for both classes.

Note: The fields below are color coded in accordance to the Job referred to. Blue for PLD, Red for WAR, Green for Both.

PLD Specific - Changes to make PLD a valued member of any Party, and fit the description given as being the cornerstone of the Party’s defense.

WAR Specific- Changes to preserve the pride Warrior carries as the meanest, hardest hitting and most intimidating tank in the Party in the face of proposed PLD changes. C’mon, look at that helmet!

Both

Mitigation
o Switch trait obtained at Lv. 40 for improved physical defense by 12 to 10-25% damage reduction overall, similar to Paladin’s trait in XI; this made them competitive in the face of the elusive Ninja.

o Change calculation of VIT to begin to incorporate higher block rate, similar to how Warrior’s version of VIT increases AA.


• Enmity Production & Redirection

o Add a significant enmity bonus to Holy Succor, staple enmity increase for healing spells to Paladin; most likely as an addition to Rampart or Divine Veil, or perhaps just a trait on GLA to give +10-15 Enmity from casting ANY healing spell.

o Not sure if it’s possible, but have all enmity produced by a healer casting spells on Paladin during the effect of Divine Veil be transferred to the Paladin, after all a Paladin sending healing energy every which direction is pretty daunting /irritating to an evildoer I’d think.

o Cover to also steal enmity from target. (This could be awesome when used with a Warrior in trouble, or for after the untimely doom of our Paladin hero to steal agro off of whomever Ifrit wants to incinerate for their insolence)


• Accuracy
o Synopsis: Tanks should not miss (as often as they do anyway), they shouldn’t hold agro with an iron fist either! They should be challenged by their DD’ing peers, but they should not miss so frequently; they’re trained and calculated defenders. It’s also no fun to see miss repeatedly, I mean we don’t exactly get fancy moves like Jump or awesome spells.

o Incorporation of an ACC for STR calculation. (IE 3 STR = 1 ACC)

o Incorporation of an ACC for MND calculation. (IE 3 MND = 1 ACC)
 Alternatives:
 Increase accuracy of all enmity based Weapon Skills, save those intended to have low accuracy by devs.
 Development of arms which have higher +ACC ratings, or giving MRD/GLA arms natural acc pools to arms.


• Resources
o Slightly higher TP generation to assure continual management of large amounts of trash mobs on high pulls. (With cure/succor blasting out higher Enmity, Warrior will need some love)
 Alternative:
 Significant TP generation for damage sustained to Warrior from enemy mobs/players some day in pvp too.

o MP Regen trait, unlocking of the spell Blessed Mind (assuming it’s a spell as I can’t use while silenced on my WHM) to GLA, or implementation of a significant MP Regen mechanic to Divine Veil.
 Alternatives:
 Addition of MP Regen up to 25% over x amount of time after a successful strike from Spirits Within.
 MP Regen per damage mitigated via shield blocks (at a reasonable percentage).

o Abstract Analysis: I hate to inject WoW into this discussion, but, the Paladin class there has an ability which produces “Mana” per successful use of the ability “Judgement” on targets at a percentage of “Mana” over time returned. This is a fun mechanic for magical tanks. Please don’t hate me.


Another Player's Thoughts, by Darkvision

* Natural magic damage mitigation
* * starting at -5% MDT, MND increases % reduction max -25%

* Decent accuracy
* * This should not hurt as they do alot less dmg but would be great not to wiff WS for combo's

* Improved Defence mitigation
* * A natural PDT of ~10-15% reduction

* Better shield mastery
* * Increase the block rate

* Natural reduction of spell interuptions
* * ~50-60% reduction at max level

I think the changes above, mixed with an MP Regen mechanism based on class, not on AF as AF inevitably won't be forever, would be nice.

I'd once suggested changing a plds attributes from str+mnd to dex+vit for similar reasons to some of your post.

a problem i see with paladin is you can either put your stats into dex+vit for hp and blockrate etc etc overall survivability. or you can put them in str+mnd for damage and as such emnity generation related to damage. so its a trade off between staying alive and generating hate i think.

so yeah i kinda think putting a glads damage modifiers into dex and vit would kinda make things a bit more uniform and less of a trade off

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Originally Posted by Dzian

I'd once suggested changing a plds attributes from str+mnd to dex+vit for similar reasons to some of your post.

a problem i see with paladin is you can either put your stats into dex+vit for hp and blockrate etc etc overall survivability. or you can put them in str+mnd for damage and as such emnity generation related to damage. so its a trade off between staying alive and generating hate i think.

so yeah i kinda think putting a glads damage modifiers into dex and vit would kinda make things a bit more uniform and less of a trade off

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Only problem with that is cure and succor were meant to be used, on xi it was at a point an aggro grabber. Having the class operate off of VIT and MND with better calculations of course seems the best route. We aren't really supposed to have a lot of damage by design.

DEX also won't help with blocking or hitting ( not noticeably anyway ) most PLDs either leave points at 0 or go VIT / MND for that reason.

It's definite that something needs to be done either by changing what stats PLD uses or changing overall calculations of stats across the board.

Don't forget that STR is also a modifier for the amount of damage mitigated by a shield block, or at least it used to be. GLD/PLD just has a lot of stats to choose from. I can't really chime in on anything else here because I don't play GLD/PLD, but I do recall the block rate to be absolutely abysmal while I was leveling it.

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Originally Posted by Raldo

Don't forget that STR is also a modifier for the amount of damage mitigated by a shield block, or at least it used to be. GLD/PLD just has a lot of stats to choose from. I can't really chime in on anything else here because I don't play GLD/PLD, but I do recall the block rate to be absolutely abysmal while I was leveling it.

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You're right, bonus 1 is MND, bonus 2 is STR. But that's supposedly only auto attack damage.

The thing of it is, from testing I've seen done for PLD specifically MND shows the highest yield of actual change in combat offensively.

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Originally Posted by SionDurant

You're right, bonus 1 is MND, bonus 2 is STR. But that's supposedly only auto attack damage.

The thing of it is, from testing I've seen done for PLD specifically MND shows the highest yield of actual change in combat offensively.

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I apologize,

That was incorrect what I said, STR effecting atk shows the highest immediate performance for auto attack and some weapon skills, but our most important enmity based combo, fast and flat blade is better effected by MND.

I dunno, all I really think needs to happen to bring Paladin back into the light is lessen the HP gap between WAR and PLD (within about 300), make blocking useful and actually mitigate damage.

On the enmity and MP side of things PLD is fine, especially considering the Enhanced Cover mechanic they've been hiding the specifics on until recently. I hear most PLDs can keep their mp up quite high while using it.

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Originally Posted by Arcell

I dunno, all I really think needs to happen to bring Paladin back into the light is lessen the HP gap between WAR and PLD (within about 300).

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I think this idea is a band-aid. Lessening the damage PLD takes from certain types of attacks is a much better option and preserves what makes warrior unique.

The last thing this game needs (and currently has) is a race to the top on one stat (HP) to define what makes a tank "a tank." The fact the defense is currently a useless stat on 'bosses' is pathetic (see http://kanican.livejournal.com/); you could basically be the best tank in the game if your WHM/BLM could somehow secure enough HP.

In short: PLD doesn't need more HP, PLD doesn't need more MP, PLD doesn't need more enmity, PLD doesn't need additional party healing. PLD needs damage mitigation that actually works and is unique (the divine veil update was a huge step in the right direction).

I believe the true fix is making defensive stats play a more valuable role for PLD. You don't even need -x% damage reduction as a trait; just give PLD a trait (let's call it "Fearless Focus" or something) that amplifies their defense rating (ie- level 50 trait, multiplies your calculated defense rating vs monsters based on level difference - caps at +10 levels). Maybe x1.1 for +3 levels, x1.3 for +4 levels, x1.7 for +5 levels, and so forth. Since dLvl/attack growth on HNM is so severe there needs to be something exponential. There are better math nerds out there than me to figure out what looks good, so don't take these numbers as my recommendation - just the concept therein.

An approach similar to this restores PLDs place as the "brick wall" tank for big bad physical mobs, lets Warrior excel vs huge magic hits due to their HP, and we all get to stop relying on one stat to define what makes an appropriate tank.

It's also worth noting that this approach (scaling PLD def based on dLvl, to a point) also:

-Prevents PLD from becoming invincible vs "trash mobs," which also helps preserve crowd-control challenges.
-Makes blocks an added bonus rather than a necessity. Yes, more frequent blocks would be nice, but I don't think that's a random block should determine your party's fate. Let that be determined by the tank's skill and ability use.
-Places a strong emphasis on gear progression for PLD - do you choose a DEF piece that will be amplified by your trait, a piece with magic evasion, or a piece with additional enmity? Maybe things become... situational again?
-Capping it at a point (say, max defense is capped at mob level +10) means running up to a level 85 ogre alone still gets you killed - the way it should be.

You might say, "Why not adjust dLvl overall to fix tanking?" All that does is raise the 'tanking' potential for all the 'non-tanks' again. It solves nothing. dLvl is not a bad concept, but the implementation of defensive stats is currently very, very flawed.

i said this in another thread

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Originally Posted by darkvision

PLD i would like to see a few things done:-

* Natural magic damage mitigation
* * starting at -5% MDT, MND increases % reduction max -25%

* Decent accuracy
* * This should not hurt as they do alot less dmg but would be great not to wiff WS for combo's

* Improved Defence mitigation
* * A natural PDT of ~10-15% reduction

* Better shield mastery
* * Increase the block rate

* Natural reduction of spell interuptions
* * ~50-60% reduction at max level

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by darkvision

i said this in another thread

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Ahh awesome,

I apologize I hadn't seen it I'll try and find it and staple it onto my post. My goal here is to organize our thoughts without negative banter seen on some of the other threads so I appreciate you posting that.

None of those suggestions would encourage use of a paladin over a warrior simply because the warrior adds more damage and you don't need more mitigation to complete any of the current content with ease. The "raids" encourage speed and a paladin offers nothing that would complete them more efficiently.

Until there's content that absolutely requires a paladin (doubtful till 2.0, and even then it's a mild advantage single target tanking), warriors will still be king.

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Originally Posted by Madruk

None of those suggestions would encourage use of a paladin over a warrior simply because the warrior adds more damage and you don't need more mitigation to complete any of the current content with ease. The "raids" encourage speed and a paladin offers nothing that would complete them more efficiently.

Until there's content that absolutely requires a paladin (doubtful till 2.0, and even then it's a mild advantage single target tanking), warriors will still be king.

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Maybe if the adjustments for PLD's mitigation is high enough that it eliminates the need for 2 WHMs in favor of another DPS, wouldn't that solve the issue?

Personally, if they would change Divine veil from a 40sec recast 20sec ability to a stance like Rampage and Berserk (Maybe All damage taken -25~40% while drastically reducing attack, making Spirits Within your only "real" damaging attack) That would fill my PLD = 1 WHM, WAR = 2WHMs criteria and I'd be alot more than satisfied.

I think really the only debate can be on paladin usefulness in boss fights, dungeon trash clearing a warrior is superior. Even then, most boss fights currently can be done reliably with 1 whm as a warrior tank. There's just not enough justification to bring a paladin over a warrior with how the content is designed.

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Originally Posted by Madruk

None of those suggestions would encourage use of a paladin over a warrior simply because the warrior adds more damage and you don't need more mitigation to complete any of the current content with ease. The "raids" encourage speed and a paladin offers nothing that would complete them more efficiently.

Until there's content that absolutely requires a paladin (doubtful till 2.0, and even then it's a mild advantage single target tanking), warriors will still be king.

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Well it's always going to be a matter of opinion, but on tougher fights where a resilient tank will be needed, something with higher mitigation will be appreciated. Either way though as they are now, Paladins are in somewhat of a lackluster shape.

If anyone's after more damage for the paladin, they will be sad. The only paladin to ever hit any kind of hard in the whole FF series was Cecil Harvey, but he was all kinds of amazing. I could see a bit of burst maybe being thrown our way but I'm not expecting anything. I will say I wish war drum was harder hitting, I miss Circle Slash :-(.

SE won't ever add more damage than rival tanks to us, which probably is a good thing, it's good to have a different variety in tanks.

"PLD doesn't need more enmity" - Gungslinger. What kind of super paladins have you been partying with? Send some towards Sargatanas please >>;
I glance at the above and people speak of resilience and buffing pld with mitigation...look, none of that matters if they lose threat. And PLD does lose threat quite easily compared to warrior. Just go with a few pick up groups into AV, fight Coincounter with a PLD and see for yourself. Or go into Ifrit with a PLD, they take a while to build up threat compared to warrior. I have not partied with a single PLD that can hold threat consistently ever since the class came out, but warriors have been doing fine is what I have noticed. Not only that, warriors just deal more damage in addition to being the tank, making them more valuable to end boss fights faster. Madruk's right, there is no justification in using PLD over WAR right now.

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Originally Posted by Veridian

"PLD doesn't need more enmity" - Gungslinger. What kind of super paladins have you been partying with? Send some towards Sargatanas please >>;
I glance at the above and people speak of resilience and buffing pld with mitigation...look, none of that matters if they lose threat. And PLD does lose threat quite easily compared to warrior. Just go with a few pick up groups into AV, fight Coincounter with a PLD and see for yourself. Or go into Ifrit with a PLD, they take a while to build up threat compared to warrior. I have not partied with a single PLD that can hold threat consistently ever since the class came out, but warriors have been doing fine is what I have noticed. Not only that, warriors just deal more damage in addition to being the tank, making them more valuable to end boss fights faster. Madruk's right, there is no justification in using PLD over WAR right now.

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Not nessicarly true. WAR uses physical damage as its main hate generator. PLD uses abilties mainly to generate hate, where damage delt has no effect to the enmity it generates. Think about it for a second. On tuff mobs that are going to be obviously resiliant to dps wich do you honestly think is gona hold hate better. Fact is when the damage delt by the war is greatly effected soo is their hate generation. This can be countered by gearing your WAR up much like a DD but then that neglects its tanking role and in turn the WAR takes a larger amount of damage. Even with Rampage, war takes anywhere from twice to 75% more damage then PLD. Sure their HP helps this issue but now that HP on WAR is gimped that edge has lost alot of luster. PLD obviously has moves in wich it needs TP as well, soo how do we generate enough TP to keep the hate flowing non stop? simple, if the fight is agains a boss that deals massive damage (500-1500) a hit at a relativly fast rate it realy dosent take much to fill the TP bar on PLD. Claims that PLD cant generate enough tp cuz of low dps is simply false, I NEVER have issues with spaming hate abilites durring a boss fight. Also important to remember when fighting bosses that hit heavy your WHMs will heal alot more often on a tank with far less def and or vit. Example : my war will take 700 damage on avg from a swipe in my best tank gear (also noting the damage delt gose way down due to gear set up for tanking) where as my pld only gets hit for 400 on avg. In that situation not only dose the WARs 500 more HP offer little to no real advantage or PLD but hate loss is a bigger risk due to the lack of DD stats on war.

Well,

I actually agree, that's why I haven't made any suggestions to increase TP generation on PLD. I do however think solid MP Regen, of all my suggestions is a must.

I would prefer the combat exchange continue to be a meaningful challenge so it would be nice if we could have mp regen as a sub mechanic of one or more of our actions or even combos. (I know Cover does some regen when you have AF chest on, and it's actually good regen but we will not always have AF)

I also believe that trading the physical def 12 trait for 15 % flat damage reduction against all incoming force would make Paladin a must have on tough boss fights.

Don't want to censor anyone but please stray away from debating damage output, we've discussed this on about 100 topics and come to the conclusion every time that higher damage was not SE's intent for the Paladin.

One thing to add, during a high stakes encounter focusing on Fast and Flat combos, as well as taking every opportunity for Phalanx and Spirits/Wardrum you should stay pretty capped off.

If you know you've got your enemy dead to rights only then I'd suggest switching priority to trying to hit hard.

If you're a wow fan following WotLK, you may see taunts as a save the healer thing, taunts on XIV don't quite function that way and actually do something mathematically during fights, so continual use of at least Flash on cooldowns doesnt seem to be a bad idea especially since it can blind some foes.

Still kinda wish flash was a dot like Dia

I will agree that PLD could greatly benifit from a self regen ability, but I guess thats what bards are for :p , either way it would not be a bad Idea. maybe instead of a 15 second ability that offers little protection is most boss fights (due to it lack of ability to avoid MAGIC damage too), maybe going from 0 to 100% mp would be more apropriate. or an attack that has a mp drain effect.

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Originally Posted by Aceofspades

I will agree that PLD could greatly benifit from a self regen ability, but I guess thats what bards are for :p , either way it would not be a bad Idea. maybe instead of a 15 second ability that offers little protection is most boss fights (due to it lack of ability to avoid MAGIC damage too), maybe going from 0 to 100% mp would be more apropriate. or an attack that has a mp drain effect.

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Anyone else got any written requests for PLD? Once I have everything I'm going to move this endeavor to a new post on gen discussions, of course truncated.

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Originally Posted by Aceofspades

I will agree that PLD could greatly benifit from a self regen ability, but I guess thats what bards are for :p , either way it would not be a bad Idea. maybe instead of a 15 second ability that offers little protection is most boss fights (due to it lack of ability to avoid MAGIC damage too), maybe going from 0 to 100% mp would be more apropriate. or an attack that has a mp drain effect.

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Anyone else got any written requests for PLD? Once I have everything I'm going to move this endeavor to a new post on gen discussions, of course truncated.

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Originally Posted by Aceofspades

Not nessicarly true. WAR uses physical damage as its main hate generator. PLD uses abilties mainly to generate hate, where damage delt has no effect to the enmity it generates.

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I still haven't maxed out my jobs yet, and I trying to make sure I understand what is going on in terms of PLD vs WAR, since everyone says that WAR is a better tank. Can you please tell me what abilities you use on PLD to secure hate? Because when I tank on Warrior, I use quite a lot of abilities for hate purposes. Sentinel, Rampart, Flash, Provoke, Antagonize, and Collusion are all used to take and secure hate. Heavy Swing > Skull Sunder is my go to combo for generating enmity over the course of a fight. And the way I understand it, Skull Sunder > Steel Cyclone will give me massive hate by way of the damage it does.

I'm confused because I don't see PLD having that much more than WAR in terms of enmity generating abilities. I want to make sure I'm not missing something here, because I want to be well informed about things. From what I see, PLD has Sentinel, Rampart, Flash, Provoke, and Cure and Holy Succor for hate generation, am I correct? Then there is Fast Blade > Flat Blade basic enmity combo and then Phalanx > Spirits Within for more massive hate.

I'd like to know what I'm missing here in terms of hate generation and why you say PLD is better at securing and holding hate if that's no trouble. Thanks.

Also, I've never noticed my pld taking that much less damage than my warrior on older content. Is that something that only happens against the harder bosses in the newly released dungeons?

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Also, I've never noticed my pld taking that much less damage than my warrior on older content. Is that something that only happens against the harder bosses in the newly released dungeons?

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Don't worry, it doesn't happen against harder bosses either, which is part of the problem :). PLD can successfully mitigate more damage than Warrior at the moment without a doubt, but when it comes to hard-hitting boss mobs the current system doesn't work for PLD. On trash mobs/non-'HNM' PLD is a better group tank, in theory. But...

1) Who cares if you can mitigate a bunch of damage if you can be one-shotted like a DD on anything "that matters." Yes, we get moves to absorb insane physical attacks (Aegis Boon rules), but that doesn't matter when a monster spams the move every 10 seconds.
2) The monsters that PLD 'excels' at tanking currently aren't of any real threat, which is why WAR is still better - just Steel Cyclone, rinse, repeat
3) Since most raids require a speed run, why would you take marginal damage mitigation over an added DD/tank combo? If you're going to sacrifice that spot, PLD should be leaps and bounds above Warrior for staying alive.

As for enmity, remember that Rampart is AOE on PLD and can provide a huge hate spike. PLD also has War Drum which should be used whenever it's up, which is not a problem thanks to Divine Veil. With PLD's abilities I've never had a huge hate problem so long as DDs realize you're not a WAR.

To me, I think that's an acceptable game play mechanic. I don't mind if WAR has insane single-target hate and PLD requires your party to DD a bit slower, but PLD should at least be compensated in some other way. The current school of thought regarding damage in this game seems to be "all out all the time" thanks to speed runs and the comfort that WAR provides. I think because of this people believe PLD is lacking. I don't think PLD is lacking for hate, just that there is an unreasonable expectation that PLD should match WAR. Let WAR have awesome hate generation, it's what they do. But they shouldn't be a safer tank and faster DD as well. Let them have single-target hate/DD, give PLD the ability to play it safer.

With Warrior my LS does a 7 minute Ifrit, with PLD it's 10+. I don't mind if that's how it is, but the fact that Ifrit is harder as PLD makes you realize something is wrong.

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Originally Posted by Gunslinger

I think this idea is a band-aid. Lessening the damage PLD takes from certain types of attacks is a much better option and preserves what makes warrior unique.

The last thing this game needs (and currently has) is a race to the top on one stat (HP) to define what makes a tank "a tank." The fact the defense is currently a useless stat on 'bosses' is pathetic (see http://kanican.livejournal.com/); you could basically be the best tank in the game if your WHM/BLM could somehow secure enough HP.

In short: PLD doesn't need more HP, PLD doesn't need more MP, PLD doesn't need more enmity, PLD doesn't need additional party healing. PLD needs damage mitigation that actually works and is unique (the divine veil update was a huge step in the right direction).

I believe the true fix is making defensive stats play a more valuable role for PLD. You don't even need -x% damage reduction as a trait; just give PLD a trait (let's call it "Fearless Focus" or something) that amplifies their defense rating (ie- level 50 trait, multiplies your calculated defense rating vs monsters based on level difference - caps at +10 levels). Maybe x1.1 for +3 levels, x1.3 for +4 levels, x1.7 for +5 levels, and so forth. Since dLvl/attack growth on HNM is so severe there needs to be something exponential. There are better math nerds out there than me to figure out what looks good, so don't take these numbers as my recommendation - just the concept therein.

An approach similar to this restores PLDs place as the "brick wall" tank for big bad physical mobs, lets Warrior excel vs huge magic hits due to their HP, and we all get to stop relying on one stat to define what makes an appropriate tank.

It's also worth noting that this approach (scaling PLD def based on dLvl, to a point) also:

-Prevents PLD from becoming invincible vs "trash mobs," which also helps preserve crowd-control challenges.
-Makes blocks an added bonus rather than a necessity. Yes, more frequent blocks would be nice, but I don't think that's a random block should determine your party's fate. Let that be determined by the tank's skill and ability use.
-Places a strong emphasis on gear progression for PLD - do you choose a DEF piece that will be amplified by your trait, a piece with magic evasion, or a piece with additional enmity? Maybe things become... situational again?
-Capping it at a point (say, max defense is capped at mob level +10) means running up to a level 85 ogre alone still gets you killed - the way it should be.

You might say, "Why not adjust dLvl overall to fix tanking?" All that does is raise the 'tanking' potential for all the 'non-tanks' again. It solves nothing. dLvl is not a bad concept, but the implementation of defensive stats is currently very, very flawed.

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While I agree with you completely, I don't see SE completely rewriting the calculations for damage taken because of Paladin. I really wish they would but that's a rather large endeavour and I just don't see SE doing it. That's why I suggested lowering the HP gap, it would fix things if they're going to make HP king essentially. Believe me, I would love it if blocking and defense actually mattered and Paladin could mitigate damage well because of it.

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Originally Posted by Orophen

I still haven't maxed out my jobs yet, and I trying to make sure I understand what is going on in terms of PLD vs WAR, since everyone says that WAR is a better tank. Can you please tell me what abilities you use on PLD to secure hate? Because when I tank on Warrior, I use quite a lot of abilities for hate purposes. Sentinel, Rampart, Flash, Provoke, Antagonize, and Collusion are all used to take and secure hate. Heavy Swing > Skull Sunder is my go to combo for generating enmity over the course of a fight. And the way I understand it, Skull Sunder > Steel Cyclone will give me massive hate by way of the damage it does.

I'm confused because I don't see PLD having that much more than WAR in terms of enmity generating abilities. I want to make sure I'm not missing something here, because I want to be well informed about things. From what I see, PLD has Sentinel, Rampart, Flash, Provoke, and Cure and Holy Succor for hate generation, am I correct? Then there is Fast Blade > Flat Blade basic enmity combo and then Phalanx > Spirits Within for more massive hate.

I'd like to know what I'm missing here in terms of hate generation and why you say PLD is better at securing and holding hate if that's no trouble. Thanks.

Also, I've never noticed my pld taking that much less damage than my warrior on older content. Is that something that only happens against the harder bosses in the newly released dungeons?

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Pretty simple answer to this.
Damage is emnity on a 1:1 ratio right? And Paladin has crappy damage? The reason they hold emnity is through their huge modifiers.

Flat blade's emnity modifier is massive and the hate you produce is boosted by the MND stat. I have over 300 mind, and flat blade is amazing. It also has a 10s cooldown which makes it spammable.

My spirits within hits about 400 damage on chimera on full HP. It has a emnity modifier in it for around 1.5x, this is about a 600 emnity spike. Chuck a sentinel on before this and you get even more hate out of this.

Rampart is AOE. Every person it hits, it generates hate for. The catch is they must be in the enemies hate table so not the best skill to start a fight with.

On a side note, I do not have a problem holding hate or tanking as a Paladin for boss fights.

Warrior is without doubt the best tank for multiple enemies. War drum, Flash and Rampart do not have the flexibility to keep up with Steel Cyclone, especially if it is antagonized.

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Originally Posted by Daniel_Fury

Pretty simple answer to this.
Damage is emnity on a 1:1 ratio right? And Paladin has crappy damage? The reason they hold emnity is through their huge modifiers.

Flat blade's emnity modifier is massive and the hate you produce is boosted by the MND stat. I have over 300 mind, and flat blade is amazing. It also has a 10s cooldown which makes it spammable.

My spirits within hits about 400 damage on chimera on full HP. It has a emnity modifier in it for around 1.5x, this is about a 600 emnity spike. Chuck a sentinel on before this and you get even more hate out of this.

Rampart is AOE. Every person it hits, it generates hate for. The catch is they must be in the enemies hate table so not the best skill to start a fight with.

On a side note, I do not have a problem holding hate or tanking as a Paladin for boss fights.

Warrior is without doubt the best tank for multiple enemies. War drum, Flash and Rampart do not have the flexibility to keep up with Steel Cyclone, especially if it is antagonized.

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You left out that a big piece of the reason people lean toward war over pld is that war has an obscene amnt of hp, and since dmg mitigation is less than well implemented even on a class that should have it in spades like pld, huge hp pool is the better choice since a whm can cure for 10k hp in a single cast(it's an exaggeration). Also for the sake of speed running dungeons a wars dmg output is preferred to a plds who currently doesn't bring tons to the table.

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Originally Posted by Enfarious

You left out that a big piece of the reason people lean toward war over pld is that war has an obscene amnt of hp, and since dmg mitigation is less than well implemented even on a class that should have it in spades like pld, huge hp pool is the better choice since a whm can cure for 10k hp in a single cast(it's an exaggeration). Also for the sake of speed running dungeons a wars dmg output is preferred to a plds who currently doesn't bring tons to the table.

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Ahh. I was just stating why Paladin can hold hate, since someone asked. You're right though.
With my full HP gear I'm too close to having 5K HP on WAR and about 4.2K on PLD.
However, having 4k hp is more than enough to tank and I have no issues staying alive in any boss fight to date while playing PLD.
People do prefer Warrior though and no matter how you look at it, unless you're a WAR that can't tank with only one WHM, that damage output is what people crave!
There is one thing people overlook though.
When trying to fight a boss like Chimera, without a cookie cutter setup, like a full melee DPS group, A PLD will be more useful in a situation like this.
Once again WAR would have better damage and more HP but it will never support your melee like a PLD can. Unfortuantely, not many people do this as they keep their safety hard hats on.

Creating content that leaves no class out is hard to produce since players will always find themselves going with the strat that makes things the easiest. When it comes to PLD/WAR tank issue I do see the issues since the games concept is designed on dealing damage throughout the battle, but Paladin goes against this since they sacrifice the damage they are able to deal to reduce damage taken and act as more of a support. However in content where you need 8 players for x event the abilities which PLD offer are not as needed when you can easily grab 2 WHM to support the Warrior that's tanking with their ability to cure large amount as well as WAR's natural High HP.

I think the trick to fixing Paladin is making it where they sacrifice their enmity to dish out heavy damage while attempting to balance those abilities while still being able to hold hate. A warrior's gimmick is basically dishing out heavy damage and using abilities to heal himself through battle while having support from mages and throwing out defensive abilities and voking when needed.

A Paladin is suppose to take less damage and support those around him but it doesn't help to improve the overall flow of battle it just helps alleviate any damage that might be taken.

Let's take Cover for example. 8 yalms isn't really that far so it might work on a DD but overall it's effects aren't useful with the current flow of battle. Rather then have an ability that can redirect damage for one player perhaps Cover could be changed to
"Holy Shield"
-Produces a barrier reducing damage taken by all allies (excluding user) by 25% and redirecting it to User, Effect wears off upon using Spirits Within-

Then change Spirits to this
"Spirits Within"
Deals Dmg, increased when "Holy Shield" is active. As well as change the combo action to have dmg influenced by current enmity rather then current HP.
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Hm, I can't think of where to fit enmity reducing type of moves but I think the above could improve some of PLD's capabilities but the other idea is this.

When it comes to the two defined as tanks,Warrior is one that takes hit so they should have the higher of physical damage taken however their constitution is weaker to magic. While Paladin can take better defense towards magic but they aren't as good as taking a physical hit unless they block it.

In a sense I see this
WAR=80% physical dmg taken, 130% magic dmg taken
PLD=100% physical dmg taken, 70% magic, 50% physical dmg taken with shield.

Then how about changing the following 4 abilities,
Aegis Boon=Improves block rate by 25% when active
Phalanx====10% chance to improves block rate by 25% for 5 seconds
Shield Bash=Improves block rate by 25% for 10 seconds
War Drum==Improves block rate by 50% for 10 seconds

I'd like to think with the slight change to these 4 abilities one may see a change to the amount of blocking they do on Paladin

Maybe as a last change, instead of the lame ability that Tempered Will offers now change it to one that influences shield block rate.

Keep the 180 recast but make it where it increases you block rate by 50% for 60 but negates you from being able to use shield counter abilities or shield bash while active. The idea then would be that Tempered Will focuses you on blocking but then you sacrifice your ability to use skills that require a shield since you're more focused on the mob rather then using your shield as a weapon.
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It's hard to say, perhaps the above could work in reducing the amount of dmg a PLD takes while slightly increasing their dmg but not so much in a way that it outshines WAR.

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Originally Posted by Daniel_Fury

Ahh. I was just stating why Paladin can hold hate, since someone asked. You're right though.
With my full HP gear I'm too close to having 5K HP on WAR and about 4.2K on PLD.
However, having 4k hp is more than enough to tank and I have no issues staying alive in any boss fight to date while playing PLD.
People do prefer Warrior though and no matter how you look at it, unless you're a WAR that can't tank with only one WHM, that damage output is what people crave!
There is one thing people overlook though.
When trying to fight a boss like Chimera, without a cookie cutter setup, like a full melee DPS group, A PLD will be more useful in a situation like this.
Once again WAR would have better damage and more HP but it will never support your melee like a PLD can. Unfortuantely, not many people do this as they keep their safety hard hats on.

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I don't disagree they[pld] do hold hate well, and I've never really seen one that was played well lose it, I have seen a 50 pld get one shot w/ ~4k hp, it was hilarious even when we wiped as a result. I don't think for an instant it was a result of bad play on anyone's part, or a lack of gear/hp, but rather just a fluke that could have happened to anyone.
The other part of the problem, not so much on fights w/ a single boss, but other times is that pld really has no crowd hate control and since a single cure from your whm can shift hate on any mobs that aren't controlled it's a big problem. That's more a problem with mob group claiming/enmity than with the classes/jobs though.

Your absolutley right about people always looking for the safest/easiest way, I'm not against this, since at the end of the day it's really all about getting what your after and the fastest way makes sense. I think it's one of the fundemental flaws in the content that we have at the moment. Everything was built for A.D.D. play, nothing is long and slow, or even a happy medium, and pld with proper dmg mitigation and support skills is a true champion in the long and slow, where your mages end up at the low end of thier mp pools and the only reason they haven't run out completely is cause that pld has -35% pdt and -45% mdt, where the war needed more cures and we wiped cause the mages ran outta mp.
Bosses that shift between pdt and mdt modes, and switch between dmg output types in a less predictable fashion.

But I digress. Mostly I'm just saying I agree.

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Originally Posted by Enfarious

I don't disagree they[pld] do hold hate well, and I've never really seen one that was played well lose it, I have seen a 50 pld get one shot w/ ~4k hp, it was hilarious even when we wiped as a result. I don't think for an instant it was a result of bad play on anyone's part, or a lack of gear/hp, but rather just a fluke that could have happened to anyone.
The other part of the problem, not so much on fights w/ a single boss, but other times is that pld really has no crowd hate control and since a single cure from your whm can shift hate on any mobs that aren't controlled it's a big problem. That's more a problem with mob group claiming/enmity than with the classes/jobs though.

Your absolutley right about people always looking for the safest/easiest way, I'm not against this, since at the end of the day it's really all about getting what your after and the fastest way makes sense. I think it's one of the fundemental flaws in the content that we have at the moment. Everything was built for A.D.D. play, nothing is long and slow, or even a happy medium, and pld with proper dmg mitigation and support skills is a true champion in the long and slow, where your mages end up at the low end of thier mp pools and the only reason they haven't run out completely is cause that pld has -35% pdt and -45% mdt, where the war needed more cures and we wiped cause the mages ran outta mp.
Bosses that shift between pdt and mdt modes, and switch between dmg output types in a less predictable fashion.

But I digress. Mostly I'm just saying I agree.

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I'm glad we agree lol.

I know those unfortunate moments where people do get one shotted, (my guess is Coin Counter?) and I'm sure every tank has experienced it as part of the learning curve, it sucks. lol

Well, to stay on topic, I only have 2 fixes/addon that I would like to see.

Rampart - Make this deal with M DEF again. I know the elemental resistances help alot, from what I've seen. AoE Rampart your party and less people are going to take damage from AoE attacks, as well as damage reduction for M. Attacks directed at the PLD. This will once again help warrior I guess, so add the M.Def part as a trait.

Greatsword - Alot of people will disagree, but hell, I love greatswords and I miss them so much. That will at least GIVE us a reason to parry and allow our damage output to increase.

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Originally Posted by Airget

Then how about changing the following 4 abilities,
Aegis Boon=Improves block rate by 25% when active
Phalanx====10% chance to improves block rate by 25% for 5 seconds
Shield Bash=Improves block rate by 25% for 10 seconds
War Drum==Improves block rate by 50% for 10 seconds

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Working on block is great, but I find the problem not to be Block Rate (Blocking all physical attacks every 1/3 of a minute is fine by me) but the Block Damage Reduction. When blocking enemies around the same level, there is a huge damage reduction from blocking.
When we fight bosses, the damage reduction from a block is really low. If we reduce damage taken from blocking a hit from an enemy higher level than us, that fixes the issue with taking the same amount of damage as a Warrior.

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Originally Posted by Daniel_Fury

I'm glad we agree lol.

I know those unfortunate moments where people do get one shotted, (my guess is Coin Counter?) and I'm sure every tank has experienced it as part of the learning curve, it sucks. lol

Well, to stay on topic, I only have 2 fixes/addon that I would like to see.

Rampart - Make this deal with M DEF again. I know the elemental resistances help alot, from what I've seen. AoE Rampart your party and less people are going to take damage from AoE attacks, as well as damage reduction for M. Attacks directed at the PLD. This will once again help warrior I guess, so add the M.Def part as a trait.

Greatsword - Alot of people will disagree, but hell, I love greatswords and I miss them so much. That will at least GIVE us a reason to parry and allow our damage output to increase.

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Enhanced Rampart(trait) - Adds a bonus to Def & M.Def (or a -P/MDT% reasonable not 90% but not 2% either)and extends duration of Rampart(enough to make it possible to maintain indefinitely or makes it into a remains in effect until reused), this trait only alters the effect on the person that uses the ability. ???

I think adding a few different types of weapons to each job/class would be really nice. Pug/Mnk w/ a staff, Mrd/War w/ a 2-handed Hammer, Cnj/Whm and Thm/Blm essentially already have this too along with their absurd dmg output they can switch between 2handed or 1handed w/ a shield, they shouldn't be the only ones to get something like this, I mean really they already have the stopping power to make other jobs look gimp, to let them have the gear options to boot that's just mean.....

God I'm so good at getting off topic

I like where this thread went, less "blah blah blah, WAR > PLD, or blah blah blah PLD > WAR" and more real disscusion of each jobs strong points and weak points.

I honestly dont think either job is broken tbh. I would love to see more magic damage def but untill SE brings it back we are stuck with stone skin, whm/cnj protect , and elemental resist. now a generic "magic resist" would be awsome to see, even if its in less value then the focused elemental resist. I think at this point its realy hard to dispute the following :

PLD for saftey
WAR for speed

that being said, obviously that was a cookie cutter idea. Can WAR be a saftey tank? sure , with proper gear and ability set up, I think WAR has dog in the fight, PLD's dog will always be much bigger in that particular fight but the same can be said about PLD when it comes to speed fights. If your PLD is good enough to replace one of your multiple healers to allow a solid DD it can effectivly bring speed to a fight. but becuase it lacks in crowd controll what WAR brings to the table it will never be as effciant with multi tasking / tanking outside of "pick n pull" fights. Personally I think the current set up is wise on SE's part. It gives you two variances of tanks for two completly diffrent ocasions. As far as a endurance type of fight, best test I have found is , get to the Princess ASAP when entering CC, and let the guard heal her each time it spawns. where she offers no real damage threat in compairison to other boss mobs, the fact that you can extend that fight indefinatly helps with testing the endurance of your parties set up. Ofcourse you would have to be compleltly bored and have a party willing to agree to do this but it is entirely possable to test an endurance fight. Personaly, and I dont think this will come to anyone as a suprise, but I find in that situation PLD outlasts WAR far superiorly. between stacking regens and superb damage medigation , could tank princes with one healer all nite lols.

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Originally Posted by Aceofspades

I like where this thread went, less "blah blah blah, WAR > PLD, or blah blah blah PLD > WAR" and more real disscusion of each jobs strong points and weak points.

I honestly dont think either job is broken tbh. I would love to see more magic damage def but untill SE brings it back we are stuck with stone skin, whm/cnj protect , and elemental resist. now a generic "magic resist" would be awsome to see, even if its in less value then the focused elemental resist. I think at this point its realy hard to dispute the following :

PLD for saftey
WAR for speed

that being said, obviously that was a cookie cutter idea. Can WAR be a saftey tank? sure , with proper gear and ability set up, I think WAR has dog in the fight, PLD's dog will always be much bigger in that particular fight but the same can be said about PLD when it comes to speed fights. If your PLD is good enough to replace one of your multiple healers to allow a solid DD it can effectivly bring speed to a fight. but becuase it lacks in crowd controll what WAR brings to the table it will never be as effciant with multi tasking / tanking outside of "pick n pull" fights. Personally I think the current set up is wise on SE's part. It gives you two variances of tanks for two completly diffrent ocasions. As far as a endurance type of fight, best test I have found is , get to the Princess ASAP when entering CC, and let the guard heal her each time it spawns. where she offers no real damage threat in compairison to other boss mobs, the fact that you can extend that fight indefinatly helps with testing the endurance of your parties set up. Ofcourse you would have to be compleltly bored and have a party willing to agree to do this but it is entirely possable to test an endurance fight. Personaly, and I dont think this will come to anyone as a suprise, but I find in that situation PLD outlasts WAR far superiorly. between stacking regens and superb damage medigation , could tank princes with one healer all nite lols.

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This is why speed runs should be abolished though isn't it?
I mean the only reason that boss fights aren't designed for endurance is because someone said, "Let's see how fast people will do this for a reward." then realized that in order to get that "speed" reward the boss can't take 12 mins. to kill so they made it possible to put down bosses well before MP and other things become a problem. And why can't I have pro/shell(want it back) last for 30 mins, it doesn't unbalance things any more than they already are.

Oh GLA/PLD: Increased buff effect(trait) increases effect and duration of buffs by 100%; Dmg mitigation and a pld worth having around?

None of that is to say I want a fight that took as long as Orphan in XIII I almost fell asleep during that, but slowing things down, making it more of a thought out battle than a berserkers frenzy would be nice, at least for those of us that enjoy thinking.

The fix for a paladin is really quite easy and it doesnt require messing with any other class one bit. I do not use the forums alot, mostly to read and seldom if ever make a post. If the devs want a fix they have only to contact me, being retired i would not require much in the way of compensation.

Many of you have some nice ideas, but a simply more elegant solution for the paladin is out there and i have it, for a price. Remember folks, never give ideas away for free, posting on the forums with your ideas or fixes gives devs free reign in using anything free of charge, just an fyi. I know folks want to help improve the game and i have read some really great ideas in other areas, some implemented by this company, it is up to you how you proceed to enjoy your product.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Possum440

The fix for a paladin is really quite easy and it doesnt require messing with any other class one bit. I do not use the forums alot, mostly to read and seldom if ever make a post. If the devs want a fix they have only to contact me, being retired i would not require much in the way of compensation.

Many of you have some nice ideas, but a simply more elegant solution for the paladin is out there and i have it, for a price. Remember folks, never give ideas away for free, posting on the forums with your ideas or fixes gives devs free reign in using anything free of charge, just an fyi. I know folks want to help improve the game and i have read some really great ideas in other areas, some implemented by this company, it is up to you how you proceed to enjoy your product.

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Theorycrafting is fun for some of us, and I happen to not care so much about money.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Possum440

The fix for a paladin is really quite easy and it doesnt require messing with any other class one bit. I do not use the forums alot, mostly to read and seldom if ever make a post. If the devs want a fix they have only to contact me, being retired i would not require much in the way of compensation.

Many of you have some nice ideas, but a simply more elegant solution for the paladin is out there and i have it, for a price. Remember folks, never give ideas away for free, posting on the forums with your ideas or fixes gives devs free reign in using anything free of charge, just an fyi. I know folks want to help improve the game and i have read some really great ideas in other areas, some implemented by this company, it is up to you how you proceed to enjoy your product.

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I'm more than happy to pay for a game I enjoy, why would I try to get them to give me money to make it more enjoyable for me? Usually when someone "works" for you, you pay them. If my ideas get used the only "reward" I want is to be able to say "Hey I suggested that."
What ever happened to people doing things for the good of the community at large? Without thought of reward for themselves? Isn't that what being a part of a community is?
I guess the year of F2P time could also be called my "payment" for any ideas that I happen to offer too.

I'm not a PLD yet but i've been following the discussion for (near) future reference. And i do support the idea of a more defence/mitigation type tank that doesn't solely rely on HP count. Firstly i hope the Devs are taking notice of the solid ideas in this thread. And secondly i appritiate all of you having an excellent discussion on the topic.

Thank you.

been a while since I have been back to this forum. After much thought, and I would hope a dev picks up this idea and runs with it, introduce a instant cast regen or instant cast cure for PLD. this will fix quite a few problems.
As I continued to develope my PLD and play it in more and more situations. I realized it was far more efficient for me to cast Stone Skin over cure or holy succor. speed of cast and mp cost/ hp conserved was my reasoning for this. And I could be wrong but I am pretty certain most PLDs would agree with me, casting any kind of cure is not effcient enough to be able to rely on in a "do or die" situation, much less for normal use.
Soo , my proposal to "fix" the only real issue I see with PLD is to simply turn holy succor, into an instant cast , with no mp cost and low if any tp cost. this will do 3 things for pld with one stone.

1) Increase enmity: it is no secret that WAR generates more hate overall, even though pld can grab hate faster and hold it for quite some time, with a war trying to steal hate, its only a matter of time before it dose. I belive if the hate generated by a strong holy succor didnt lose its enmity build and was put into instant cast form then plds could simply spam this ablity to help build a fair amount of hate with little effort and no fear of cast interuption.

2)Increase DPS: If Pld could instant cast a cure as strong as holy succor as offten as most other classes can cast second wind, this would essentually allow PLD to replace a healer in what is normally a two healer set up, allowing for more dps in and thus removing any incentive for war/pld due to DPS

3)Increase Survivablity: obviously with holy succor on an instant cast and with no mp cost that would make PLD far more survivable then WAR. WAR as the ablity to self heal at not mp cost and with no cast time due to blood bath and the rampage stance, soo long as it lands its attacks. being that PLD is not desinged to do damage , abilities like ramage and blood bath would do little for pld. However with our high "mind" build instant cast holy succor on a fairly timed coold down would more then even the odds. with PLD having a far higher potential for survivablity already this would make it soo strong as a tank it could SAFELY replace a healer in most instances like discussed above.

another Idea would be to give PLD either a stance or instant cast ability that grants a regen that is constant and dose not end untill the ability is re-casted, much like rampage .

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Originally Posted by Gunslinger

In short: PLD doesn't need more HP, PLD doesn't need more MP, PLD doesn't need more enmity, PLD doesn't need additional party healing. PLD needs damage mitigation that actually works and is unique (the divine veil update was a huge step in the right direction).

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The problem currently in place is that there's nothing in terms of real mitigation that naturally scales as the PLD goes higher in level. Mitigation is also not really supported by itemization (XI had the devs implement a very stupid stat in the form of "Reduces physical/magic damage taken by X%").

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I believe the true fix is making defensive stats play a more valuable role for PLD. You don't even need -x% damage reduction as a trait; just give PLD a trait (let's call it "Fearless Focus" or something) that amplifies their defense rating (ie- level 50 trait, multiplies your calculated defense rating vs monsters based on level difference - caps at +10 levels). Maybe x1.1 for +3 levels, x1.3 for +4 levels, x1.7 for +5 levels, and so forth.

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I can partially agree here. Tanks should definitely get more out of armor defense ratings. At the same time, I think this value in itself should probably cap at some number - say, against lv50 mobs you need 700 defense to cap mitigation or hit diminishing returns.

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An approach similar to this restores PLDs place as the "brick wall" tank for big bad physical mobs, lets Warrior excel vs huge magic hits due to their HP, and we all get to stop relying on one stat to define what makes an appropriate tank.

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This opens the door for niche tanking, which I am staunchly against. PLD and WAR should both be viable choices for the tank role. Niche tanks cause more trouble than they're worth down the line.

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-Makes blocks an added bonus rather than a necessity. Yes, more frequent blocks would be nice, but I don't think that's a random block should determine your party's fate. Let that be determined by the tank's skill and ability use.

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Considering how much of GLA/PLD's skills depend on shield blocks (specially stuff like War Drum), I'm not so much in favor of this.

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-Places a strong emphasis on gear progression for PLD - do you choose a DEF piece that will be amplified by your trait, a piece with magic evasion, or a piece with additional enmity? Maybe things become... situational again?

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Situational is bad. VERY bad given the current and well-placed limitations on gear swaps.

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You might say, "Why not adjust dLvl overall to fix tanking?" All that does is raise the 'tanking' potential for all the 'non-tanks' again. It solves nothing. dLvl is not a bad concept, but the implementation of defensive stats is currently very, very flawed.

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Taking level correction (what you call dLvl) to extremes is not a good idea, and something that should be considered when designing content for 2.0.

Level correction screws over numerous other factors. This is why some modern MMOs have "elite", "hero" and "Paragon" brackets for mobs that are designed as part of group content, which then allows the devs to make a monster as tough as they want without level correction throwing a wrench into things and messing up things for people. Ideally, if we have a lv50 dungeon, then all mobs are lv50 under that special bracket that gives them higher stats, higher damage potential and so on without level correction forcing you to stack too much accuracy or +attack to overcome the difference in level. Likewise bosses could have their own bracket that follows the tried and true "dungeon level +3" rule, which again allows the devs to implement as many mechanics as they want in the fight without going overboard on having to overcome level correction.